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 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 1
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Some people view vaccines as a health risk, & also blame them for causing some medical conditions such as MS or autism.

There are numerous claims of evidence from some researchers, but their findings are always debunked when others try to copy their work.

What are your views?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 2
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 9/12/2010 10:01:21 PM
As I created this thread for those that see vaccines as a danger to discuss their view on the subject, I won't argue/debate the issue with rozzko here.... unless he continues to post on the subject in discussion threads that are about other topics.
 TooShadows
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 3
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are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 9/14/2010 7:13:44 AM
I don't believe that most vaccines pose a risk at all,to the majority of most people. There's always going to be a few cases where the body chemistry of some make those people allergic to a vaccine. Look at penicillin,a great anti-biotic,and yet some people are deathly allergic to it.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 4
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 9/28/2010 7:29:27 PM
I was hoping rozzko would limit his anti vaccine psoting to this thread I created as a forum for discussing vaccines & whether or not you feel they are an unecessary risk, but since rozzko just can't keep his diatribe limited to this thread, I decided to post some links worth reading.



Check out

The Wakefield MMR verdict
http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/the-wakefield-mmr-verdict/

Professional News
Medical Journal Retracts Report Linking Autism, Vaccine
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/45/5/2.1.full

Jenny McCarthy Takes Back That Autism Thing
http://medicinereport.com/news/jenny-mccarthy-takes-back-autism-thing

The Anatomy of a Scare: The MMR Vaccine and Autism
http://drhippo.com/blog/2009/03/19/the-anatomy-of-a-scare-the-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 5
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 10/13/2010 12:13:50 AM
I wasn't planning to post in this thread, but since rozzko can't keep his anti vaccine diatribe out of other threads, I'll respond.



Funny with all the press about Wakefield, I recall none about Dr Paul Reuben who has been convicted, sent to prison and fined for fabricating research for Pfizer and Merck over a 13 year period.


Perhaps you just didn't notice the stories because they weren't about the evils of vaccines.

And what's your point? Two wrongs make a right? Wakefield's bogus research & findings are still bogus... wonder how his patent for his own vaccine ( the one he created that's "safe" & can replace the vaccines his bogus research showed were dangerous) is coming.

What a lucky break, he sets out to patent a vaccine to replace vaccines his research ( research no one else has been able to duplicate) says is unsafe.


Guess rozzko's view is that because another researcher faked his results, Wakefield's faked results are now good.


autism doctor barred for serious misconduct
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forums/viewthread/12082/

Fall of Andrew Wakefield, ‘dishonest’ doctor who started MMR scare
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forums/viewthread/11431/

A Bad Day For Jenny MCCarthy
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forums/viewthread/11529/

A staggeringly weak interview of Andrew Wakefield on the Today programme
The Wakefield MMR verdict
http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=wakefield

An Epidemic of Fear: How Panicked Parents Skipping Shots Endangers Us All
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience

How to Win an Argument About Vaccines
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience_argument

Respectful Insolence"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." The miscellaneous ramblings of a surgeon/scientist on medicine, quackery, science, pseudoscience, history, and pseudohistory
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/the_anti-vaccine_movement_strikes_back_u.php

The Wakefield MMR verdict
http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/the-wakefield-mmr-verdict/

 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 6
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 10/25/2010 5:39:37 PM

Take notice of Scd ignoring Dr Paul Reuben's criminal activity on behalf of Merck and Pifzer


Take notice of rozzko's ignoring all the reports that show that Wakefield's "findings" can't be duplicated ( because they are fraudulent or Wakefield is incompetent) and that Wakefield took spinal taps from children under the guise of medical research.


Pifzer and /or Merck lawsuits." You'll find all you need to know about these criminal organizations


And a filed lawsuit porves NOTHING other than a lawsuit has been filed.

Of course, no one in the US would file a frivolous lawsuit would they ( cough.. "McDonalds coffee too hot... cough)

Here's another great lawsuit showing that courts are often bombarded wit hridiculous lawsuits:


A Russian astrologer is suing Nasa for crashing a probe into a comet, claiming it has distorted her horoscope


http://arnab.org/blog/russian-nasa-comet-hilarity
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 7
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 10/25/2010 7:45:40 PM
Scd once again breaks into a chorus of "NONSENCE" instead of maturely investigating the facts.


I wasn't disputing the fact that there are lawsuits out there, I was merely pointing out that a lawsuit ( in & of itself) isn't scientific proof of anything.

It's curious that if Wakefield's research has been proven right ( I wonder, are these peer-reviewed scientific journals?) he isn't demanding a retraction from the Lancet or suing them for slander.



Lawsuits protect us


Some do, some are completely without merit.


If people didn't have the ability to protect themselves


Protect themselves from what? Voluntary vaccinations? Vaccinations are not mandatory.


Instead Scd talks nonsense about Mc Donalds and some crap about Russia


Actually, it was an example of how there are many frivolous lawsuits out there, & the fact there are lawsuits against the pharmaceutical companies ISN't proof ( in & of itself) that the lawsuits have any merit. I can't help it if the link I posted seemed like nonsense to rozzko; perhaps some of the larger words confused them.


I won't waste my time entertaining.



Newspeak ( see 1984 by Orwell) for " I don't need to be presented with any facts that oppose my beliefs , I know all I need to know".


The most poignant aspect of lawsuits against BIG PHARMA, is that they are convicted. CONVICTED


But have they been convicted for administering vaccines that cause autism? Let me know.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 8
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 10/28/2010 6:56:56 PM

More nonsense responses from Scd. I know you are but what am I? You act like PEE WEE HERMAN.
More of the contrariness rather than any evidence. Its just childish nonsense


Interesting.

An ad hominem attack AND a dig about not posting any evidence, after repeated requests for you to post evidence to support your claims are ignored ...


and all without citing examples of "childish nonsense", just another broad blanket statement with no evidence actually contributed
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 9
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/2/2010 9:00:47 PM
I did a little searching at the link you provided, found lots of links but couldn't find the story you refer to... could you post a more specific link please?
 Ideoform
Joined: 9/23/2007
Msg: 10
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are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/2/2010 10:44:13 PM
I'm not in Manitoba, but I will answer your question.
I am more than fully vaccinated and I vaccinated all three of my children, until my last child developed complications after the MMR vaccine. He became ill at the time, lost the language he had learned by that time and within two years was diagnosed with Autism. This was 14 years ago.

Back then, there really wasn't much hope for children with Autism. Nobody had any answers for us about what to do for our son. Autism was like getting a death sentence. You were told your child would never be normal, would probably require being put into an institution by age 8 or so because Autism was so difficult to live with.

I searched the web for ideas and answers and found a few bits of research here and there that I thought might help, and so because there was pretty much nothing to loose, we started trying some of them.

I made notes of what worked and what didn't and talked to other parents about what worked for them.

My son is much better now, after receiving lots of different kinds of help. Therapy helped a lot, but it isn't a cure. As for anything that might help him biologically deal with the illness, the research done by Dr. Wakefield was by far the most helpful.

Its hard to sort out fact from fiction with so much at stake. On the one hand is the enormous profits being made by the drug companies who provide vaccinations and other medications to almost everyone in this country, and on the other hand is the quality of life of children who react badly to them and the families who have to deal with the aftermath.

Autism changes everything about a family. It doesn't just hurt the child.

Evidence from direct experience is hard to ignore. I know that nobody knows who I am on here, and so you are right to be sceptical of what I say here. However, it is good to be sceptical. I am much more sceptical than I used to be about vaccines and drugs than I was before all this happened to me and my family. Direct personal experience changed my views on vaccination. I really, really, really don't wish this kind of experience on anyone else.

So people will have to use their own judgement, and I can only caution you to be careful and not to just assume that because a company is large that its views are "more right" than the experiences of many families like mine who feel they have been hurt by their products.

I wish I could warn every parent, but I can't. I am only one person, and I am so busy with taking care of the child that was injured that it limits what I can do. I can't afford to do my own double-blind study, and anyway, a double-blind study (the gold standard of research methods) of the causes of Autism would be unethical.

To this day, nobody really knows what causes Autism, and nobody really knows the upper limit of how many vaccinations a human child can adapt to. And so the danger is that we will keep adding vaccinations to our children's bodies until that upper limit gets reached, because there is nothing to stop us from doing so, and there is so much profit to be made from continuing to add vaccinations.

Vaccinations are a "drug" that everybody can be taking... and so the drug companies have found a way to treat healthy people as if they were sick. So now we will all need to take vaccines in order to stay healthy.

We are changing the nature of the entire human population this way. Our immune systems might stop behaving in a normal way and with this dependence on vaccinations we will be forever tied to drug companies for our survival. And what if someone decides to tamper with the formulas and include a virus that modifies our genes? This is already being done...in animals and plants. But how do we know that it isn't being done without our knowledge in regular vaccinations? Vaccinations are already combinations of several diseases, how can we monitor so many vaccinations (millions and millions of doses) to be sure that some extra gene modifying virus isn't being added?

How can we be certain that the drug companies are behaving in an ethical way at every step of the process, from research, to production, to distribution? Is anyone even trying to do this?

So much is at stake. Every single person in our country is being told to get a vaccine. So if this process isn't safe or ethical, or mistakes are made, every single person could be at risk.
 Ideoform
Joined: 9/23/2007
Msg: 11
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are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/3/2010 9:48:46 PM
I meet a lot of families with disabled children. One of the Mothers I met when my children were young started a babysitting co-op so that we could have respite. At the time, there was no respite for families with children with severe disabilities, and so to go to a funeral or a wedding or anything we had to help each other out. Her daughter became ill and developed demyelination of her nerves. I did respite for them a few times. This is a terrible disease process that leaves a person with very low quality of life. For many years this beautiful child could only blink her eyes... she was in a lot of pain and would scream most nights, keeping the family awake trying to help her be comfortable. It was very sad, because she started out perfectly normal until age 4. A lovely child. And each year she lost more functioning. She died last year at age 21.

They never discovered the true cause of her disability. Now I wonder if it was her vaccination schedule...

I had fibromyalgia for many years. From doing some reseach last year, I read that fibromyalgia symptoms have been linked with a retrovirus now. And viruses are being implicated in about 30% of people who are overweight.

They use viruses to insert genes into plants and animals. I wonder if there is a virus that has been used to make animals grow fast and gain a lot of weight that has infected us as a society from eating this kind of meat, or being exposed to animals that have been modified this way.

Viruses are so small, and they aren't truly "alive" in the sense we think of alive. Mainly, they are just easily transmittable packets of genetic information. And so they can sit around for a very long time inactive and still infect someone. They are so tiny its impossible to imagine that they can be completely contained and managed safely in every single situation in which they are utilized.

Antibiotics don't affect viruses at all, and so we don't have very good control of them once they are infecting someone, and so we are playing with fire when we produce millions of doses of viruses for use in vaccinations every year.

The thing is, viral illnesses are not that treatable, and so if the only way to "treat" them is to produce trillions of copies of them for use in widespread, massive vaccinations of entire populations, is that really a very smart, long term solution? What we have created is a huge industry that actually produces trillions and trillions of disease viruses each year...

Its like hiring hackers to create the security software you use... how do you know for certain that the hackers aren't creating the very computer viruses that we then hire them to protect us from?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 12
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/3/2010 9:59:31 PM

Scd I can't find that link at the moment. I found it while surfing, and thought there was enough addy to get back. I'll keep trying, and may find it more by accident.


OK thanks.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 13
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/3/2010 10:03:59 PM
They never discovered the true cause of her disability. Now I wonder if it was her vaccination schedule...


That's the big problem, there may be vague hints that vaccines could cause some problems but hard evidence to show a direct link isn't out there yet. No hard evidence being established, some or all the cases could be coincidence.

You have to make an informed choice. Few would dispute the effectiveness of the vaccination program that eradicated smallpox, but is an annual flu shot ( that's been prepared for a specific strain of the flu) a good idea? Maybe, if you have some underlying health issues & the risk to you should you contract a flu is severly heightened.
 Ideoform
Joined: 9/23/2007
Msg: 14
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are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/3/2010 10:10:18 PM
When your child is seriously affected, that is as "hard" of evidence as anyone can get.

Why wait for proof of something that is difficult to prove?
What is happening is collateral damage.
At some point we have to decide whether getting a flu shot that might not even contain this year's flu in it, is more important than the lives of the people who become collateral damage in the war against these diseases.

Polio was devastating. So we were desperate then.
But we have better tools now to fight diseases, and we have had time to do much more research. If some of the research is being hidden, or manipulated to protect the public from panic around vaccination, then this will affect everyone's judgement. How can we make accurate judgements about risks without accurate information about them?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 15
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/4/2010 10:35:48 AM

When your child is seriously affected, that is as "hard" of evidence as anyone can get.


No, that's an incident that may or may not be related to the vaccine being administered. All the things being blamed on the vaccines existed before vaccination existed as a tool of medical science.


Why wait for proof of something that is difficult to prove?


Ge, I dunno..... maybe so there'd be proof/evidence of it? What do you propose, saying we can't prove this but my guess is....

Otherwise someone could look at the circumstances & say "See? All the people that were given the vaccine & later developed these conditions were wearing blue jeans; it looks like wearing blue jeans while being vaccinated increases the risk". There'd be no evidence of the jeans causing the problem, but it could appear they are.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 16
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/5/2010 12:47:37 AM

IDEOFORM, don't let Scd influence your thinking.


IDEOFORM, don't let rozzko influence your thinking. Do your own research, inform yourself then make up your own mind.


And it doesn't matter if the child is wearing jeans or cordrouy


As anyone with at least normal intelligence would have realized, the analogy I used was simply to demonstrate that there isn't always a cut & dryed easily established link between cause & effect.

Another example would be malaria. This got it's name because at the time it was catalogued by doctors the link between the bite of malaria carrying mosquitos and the disease was unknown. It was thought that certain areas of the land-- especially swampy ones-- emitted bad air ( Italian mala aria meaning literally, "Bad Air ).

They knew there was something causing the disease because they could observe it's effect but they didn't find the actual cause for a while.
 Ideoform
Joined: 9/23/2007
Msg: 17
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are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/5/2010 12:19:44 PM
I already made up my mind about this issue over ten years ago. I have done tons of research, if by research you mean looking things up and reading research, and experimenting with things that might help my child.

If you have a child who is injured you don't want to wait for 20 years of definitive consistently replicated research. By then he will be an adult and it would be too late to help him recover from a developmental disease.

If a child is sick, you search for the cure NOW, not whenever the entire society can agree on something. You can't wait for society to ever totally agree on anything, because there will always be competing interests and factions. This is what our society is about: competition, we have a "marketplace of ideas." And we never agree on much. So what I want to know is, why are all the other people "waiting?"

I can only sleep at night if I know about some danger and I warn people by doing something. It might not change anything, but at least I can go to sleep knowing I tried to let people know. They can wait if they want to.

I hope that the research continues. And there will be real and reliable results to wait for that we can put to use. In the case of my son, time is important.

When evaluating research, it is important to know who is financing it. This is as important as what the research is about. All research is done in a social context that has forces that control it. This is the single greatest failing in research...researcher bias. Its built-in and inevitable. And every good scientist looks for it.

The problem with universal vaccination is that there is no valid control group if everyone gets vaccinated -- then there is nobody left to compare vaccinated with un-vaccinated people.

I am not a researcher. I did research in College as a Pre-Med and Psychology student, and I replicated a cloning experiment and some others, but that's not what I do for a living. But because I took courses in science, that taught me the scientific method like Statistics, Logic, Medical Latin, Biology, Physiology, Anatomy, NeuroPsych and others, I feel that I can read and understand research and I pass along anything that I think is important, which hasn't been that much, really. I don't go around bashing big companies for a hobby. I just notice patterns and read whatever interests me.

I do have a child that has Autism, and so this are interests me. And so I read a lot about it, for over 16 years now.

Medicine isn't a true science. Ask any Medical Doctor. My Dad was one. He called it an Art. It has a lot of areas that are subjective and require discernment and judgement. Medical Doctors make mistakes. It happens. Scientific studies can be corrupted, like any other human endeavor. We all have to be alert consumers of medical care or you can become a statistic.

I saw what third world countries were like when we were medical missionaries. I understand the impulse to try to eradicate diseases so that we don't have to spend as much on treatment or raising the standard of living for people. It seems so much simpler to rely on a shot than to try to figure all of the factors out.

If you want to help eradicate a very serious disease around the world, with very little expense, help the groups that are preventing permanent blindness by giving an essential vitamin that third world citizens have too little of. It costs less than dollar to save a child from a lifetime of blindness, by giving them a single capsule of vitamin A.

In Africa, more than three million children under the age of five are blind due to a vitamin A deficiency and 50 million more are at risk of blindness. Vitamin A deficiency is also one of the leading causes of death for children and a major risk factor for pregnant women.

Here is just one of several websites about this issue:
http://www.aidforafrica.org/member-charities/vitamin-a-for-africa-international-potato-center/
 Ideoform
Joined: 9/23/2007
Msg: 18
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are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/5/2010 1:32:00 PM
Here are the main problems with vaccination:

Corruption
Corruption in any area that deals with it, in the financing, the research, the ethics of the company, the practices of the company, the production of the product, and in the distribution of the product, and in the marketing of the product. Any area can become corrupted by the pressures of stockholders, traders, and people just getting greedy or just trying to make a living and looking the other way to do it. Or there are people who tend to think that everything must be OK because everyone else is doing it.

Where ever there is a lot of money to be made, corruption is a possibility, and some might say that because it is a part of human nature to focus on money -- a probability, -- which is why in all functioning social systems we have a form of checks and balances, and several forms of accountability and consequences.

Contamination
Where are the products made? Who is making them? What laws are in effect to control these processes and people? Are the standards enough to prevent most mistakes?

Unforseen Side-effects
Until you test the product on a group of people for an entire life-cycle, you really don't know the long-term implications. Until you test an entire population of people, you won't know how the effect of changing their immunity will affect the group. This is impractical and so isn't done.

Limits to Research in Real Life
You can test the product given individually, but seldom is a product tested with other products that people are given or are taking at the same time. I think the MMR is a problem because the three viruses are given together, and then often other vaccinations are given with this one, so that a child can get 6 or more diseases injected into them all in one day...causing their immune systems to over-react. My son got a mild case of lead poisoning during the time he was vaccinated, which I think is why he got Autism and I didn't. However, lead poisoning is extremely difficult to prevent in certain situations, and very dangerous in children under age three because of how the body develops.

Auto-immunity
Auto-immunity is when the immune system becomes unable to distinguish between "self" and "not-self."
Auto-immunity is a real problem when there are dietary deficiencies that prevent the immune system from calming itself down after exposure to a disease.

"Non-active" Ingredients
Immunizations need preservation to keep from spoiling. Refrigeration isn't toxic, but isn't reliable enough and too expensive, and so toxic preservatives are added (almost all preservatives have toxicity, since they are designed to kill bacteria, its just a matter to what degree they are toxic.)

Many immunizations are made by injecting a contagious disease into a living, developing egg. This makes all immunizations made this way a possible trigger for the person immunized to become allergic to the proteins in eggs or egg whites. This is an inexpensive, healthy, staple food for many people, and its really unfortunate if you have to eliminate eggs from people's diets. By stimulating the immune system at the same time as injecting eggs into a person, the similar proteins in eggs to living human tissue can cause auto-immunity to develop.

Mode of Delivery
Getting exposed to a disease by having it injected is not the normal way a human gets exposed to certain diseases. And so our immune system can become confused by encountering a disease which is already in the bloodstream when it usually presents itself at the usual 8 "entrances" to the human body (the eyes, nose, mouth, vagina, ect.) These entrances are all covered with a specially-designed protective surface called mucous membrane. This surface has special ways to react to contagion that the bloodstream doesn't have. It produces phlem, (mucous,) and other excretions to stick to, contain or wash away the bulk of the disease organisms, and has easy access to the bloodstream where immune cells can grab the invaders without being overwhelmed. This normal immune reaction is bypassed with an injection, causing the immunity to this disease to be unnatural. It tells the body to look inward for disease, instead of outward. It causes the immune military to be harassing the natives instead of the invaders.

It is this reason that many newer immunizations are now being developed to be given by spraying into the nose, to better mimic the typical exposure to contagions.

Age of Delivery
The human immune system is not fully developed and functioning the way an adult's is for many years. This is the advantage of breast feeding and the reason people take colostrum (bovine immune cells made right after birth of a calf.) The infant inherits some of the mother's immunity to diseases she has been exposed to through the initial breast milk. He can sometimes inherit a faulty immunity to certain allergenic foods this way, too.

So if you are trying to get the same immune reaction an adult gets to happen in an infant, it just isn't going to happen. So you have to re-immunise several times as the child develops. This can be a waste of resources if the child wouldn't normally need full immunity for many years (such as immunizing against diseases that primarily affect adults, like sexually transmitted diseases.)

Infants and the elderly react differently to almost all medications because of how their livers clear the blood and for other reasons. They are a more vulnerable population and should be given special consideration with medications, dosages, and other issues.

For instance, there is the Tylenol issue -- you used to have to give a different dose to babies than adults, not just because of the size, but because it was less diluted so that the baby would have to swallow less of the drug. This lead to confusion about doses and many children got overdosed causing liver damage. There is Rye's Syndrome, which is caused by giving a child aspirin during an illness. Drugs that act as stimulants to adults, when given to children have the opposite effect -- to calm them down. Because of aging, the elderly metabolize drugs differently and at different rates than other adults, their livers just aren't as effective at removing them, and so they stay in circulation in the bloodstream longer, sometimes leading to a build-up of the drug in the body and thus to overdoses. And there are a lot of other differences in very young children, and the elderly.

The main issue here is that you can't experiment on children, so all the vaccinations are researched on adults. Every time a child takes a medication right after it is released to the market, takes a risk, because they are the true Guniea Pigs.

And because female adults often can be pregnant and not know it, most research is done on adult men. So almost all the knowledge we have is based on adult men's bodies. This completely ignores the changes in hormones and other functions between adults and children, and fertile and menopausal women.

Of course, all this is balanced by the true concern that we need some kind of defense against a true epidemic of a deadly disease, like Polio. However, once a disease is very unlikely, such as when the disease is gone from all but a few remote locations in other countries, the vaccination is not removed from the schedule. They keep them up and the list of vaccinations keeps getting longer. No normal person would come into contact with every deadly disease known to man. So why put so many people at risk of side-effects and complications, and mistakes, if the disease is unlikely?

Eradication
I think that in the past we could look to eradicate diseases. But now we know they mutate, and evolve, just like we do. So we can't completely rely on vaccinations to solve all of our contagion issues. Besides the fact that almost all deadly diseases still exist in labs around the world waiting to use in case someone "needs" them for weaponization. We have to have a multiple-level strategy for dealing with disease, and if we only rely on immunization, we will not fund research to find other ways to deal with health, wellness and disease.
 Ideoform
Joined: 9/23/2007
Msg: 19
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are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/6/2010 12:29:22 PM
Thank you. I hope this helps people to think more about the vaccinations we take for granted without a bit of concern when we bring our tiny babies to get them. There is so much at stake, and that is why the discussion can get so heated.

I don't think we have enough ongoing scrutiny of the vaccination production and process. If banks can fail, and the economy can fail, and Priests can have issues, what human institution can be totally trusted indefinitely? Don't get me wrong, I think trust is a good thing, because without it nothing requiring cooperation could function very smoothly. However, we rely on some kinds of regulations to be in place and I hope that these are sufficient to prevent large-scale problems.

There was a lot of talk about the H1N1 virus being created by researchers and unwittingly released. Some people think that it was released on purpose. How do we know that someone with a basic knowledge of science couldn't take an animal with bird flu and an animal with swine flu and combine their tissues or blood into a lab animal to create a new strain of virus? If bombs can be home-made, then so can viruses. The science isn't that difficult.

The premise of the movie V for Vendetta was based on this theory. I know its a "conspiracy theory" but no conspiracy is required. Just human curiosity and desire to control things, and human miscalculations and mistakes.

I first became aware of vaccination issues 20 years ago when I had my first child. I had just given birth and was asked if I had had the Rubella vaccination. I guess at that time there had been some concern about this particular vaccination. I said I couldn't remember specifically that one, but I was pretty sure that I was fully vaccinated, and I would have to ask my Mom about the actual vaccination. The nurse said that because I wasn't absolutely positive, she was going to give me the vaccination anyway. So perhaps she thought I was lying?

Anyway, I refused the shot, and she brought in another nurse to talk me into it. I refused again, partly because the pressure was making me concerned with WHY they were so worried about this. Because this was my first child and I was 28 and really had spent years looking forward to this event, I had read everything I could about having a baby, and nowhere was this issue in any of the books on having a baby. Plus, if anything, I am way OVER immunized. After all, my father was a Doctor. When our family went to Nicaragua as medical missionaries, I was given a ton of extra immunizations that Americans didn't normally get at the time.

Then the nurse injected me with the shot, against my wishes, without my permission, by just jabbing me in the arm with it. I was shocked. I wrote it off as just plain rudeness and inconsiderateness at the time, but now I wonder if there wasn't a case of Rubella in the hospital and they were trying to cover it up that the case had spread to other patients.

Anyway, I went home with my baby, and I became very sick within a week. I had spots, my joints swelled, I had a terrible cough, and a fever. I was worried about my baby getting sick, too, so I went to the Doctor. He couldn't figure out what I had, and so I was sent to a specialist. The specialist told me I had RUBELLA. He said he knew the symptoms even though Rubella is rare in America, because he was a Doctor overseas during the war and he had seen cases of it there.

This child died, by the way. After two more children, I became more aware of a lot of things, and when my youngest came down with Autism after the MMR vaccine, I was on high alert. The R in MMR is RUBELLA. I think that I have what they call a "high Titer" of Rubella immunity. I breast fed all my children, so one theory could be that I gave my son a natural immunity to Rubella and he didn't NEED his Rubella shot.

I have to conclude that there is such a thing as being OVER immunized. I had never thought about that before.

There is this type of disease process that happens where a person's immune system ramps up and then can't ramp back down. Its always on "high alert." This is different than auto-immunity, it is something that happens when you don't have the right genetics to produce the body chemistry that helps calm the immune system back down after exposure to a contagion.

Lately I have been learning stuff from a field of research called "Psychoneuroimmunology" which studies the neurological effects of the immune system. Basically, it means that your immune system affects your brain and nerves, and this could be a reason that people develop Autism and other Autism spectrum disorders.
This is difficult stuff to read, so in this area, I am definitely in over my head, but I have been considering going back to school to study it.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 20
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/11/2010 7:02:59 PM
I don't plan to post on this thread except when rozzko posts anti vaccine posts on non-related threads.

Note that I am not saying you SHOULD get vaccinated, or you SHOULDN'T get vaccinated. I am merely posting information so people make up their own minds.


The whole of the mercury militia have never been overly concerned with trifling matters like research to back up their beliefs. That’s why all the accumulated science to date was thrown out of court and will, barring fresh evidence, continue to be thrown out of court.

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2006/08/405/



Then there is the controversy between many who claim that thimerosal- a preservative containing mercury, which is a neurotoxin that was used in vaccines until 2001, was the catalyst for autism in children.

Over 5000 lawsuits have been filed because of this belief, and some have been successful for the plaintiff. Yet most agree the correlation between thimersal and autism is void of scientific merit.

Furthermore, the cases of autism have not decreased since the preservative was discontinued in 2001.

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2009/02/the_autismvaccines_fraud.php#more
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 21
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/12/2010 8:13:02 PM

As all can see Scd has made this personal, and simply wants to neutralize what I say, so no one will actually have the facts.


Actually, this thread is here so people can post whatever they like on vaccines & I don't come here ( to read what is said or to make comments) UNLESS I see one of your anti-vaccine posts on a non-related thread.

I'm all for people researching the issue & making up their own minds, but if they decide to do that & just go to sites & articles looking at one side of an issue then they are going to be deciding without looking at both sides.

If they DO decide to just look up information & reports that support what they've already decided then they're wasting their time looking up the information; since their mind is made up already.


No matter what proff/evidence exists,


None has been produced that can be duplicated.


some industry mouth, or medical researcher or vaccine patent holder, or corrupt official of fake expert like Quackwatch merely muddles the truth


To put it another way, some anti vaccine mouth, or alternative medicine researcher or vaccine patent holder ( like Wakefield perhaps) , or corrupt alternative medicine official or celebrity with NO medical degree or science degree whatsoever (like Jenny McCarthy) merely muddles the truth.


while the 25 million autistic victims live a life we wouldn't want for ourselves or our children


We agree on this, I sepnt several rewarding months back in the late 70's ( when it was called the Canadian Association for the Mentally Retarded, not very politically correct) working as a helper for an autistic man.





Scd thinks being contradictory and annoying is some sort of public service


Contraddictory? No, but when someone makes claims they have absolutly no evidence to prove ( your vaccine pharma govt. conspiracy for example) or make claims & post what they call evidence which when you look a little further than their sweeping claim turns out to have been debunked by researchers all over the world then they shouldn't complain when someone points that out to them.

You make the claim for that pharma conspiracy regularly, we're still waiting for you to post some evidence to support your claim. But be aware that evidence posted is not automatically accepted, it will be examined & possibly rejected.



but Scd is mistaken.


You are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else.

Oh and I would still like to read the information you referred to in Msg 16:


(I found this at leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk
Its the conclusion reached by special master Abel


I know you mentioned in Msg 19 you would try to find the specific link again.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 22
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/14/2010 2:41:37 AM

I don't read your rants, i've read enough trash of that type in my quest to find the truth.


Apparently your "quest to find the truth " means your quest to find & accept any article, research or claim that agrees with & supports your view while ignoring any article, research or claim that opposes your view.

Just as your occasional accusations of someone being close-minded refer to anyone that disagrees with you while you have no problem with your having a closed mind to any opposing view.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 23
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/16/2010 12:05:30 AM

You are right everyone with concerns about vaccines are quacks.


No, what I have stated ( & what you continually ignore) is that people should look into the issue & make up their own minds about vaccines. But it's pointless to make your mind up by looking into only 1 side of an issue.


Oh I forgot, you're open minded. Funny, you don't come across that way.


Do you even know what the term open minded means?


http://www.essentiallifeskills.net/openmind.html

To have an open mind means to be willing to consider or receive new and different ideas. It means being flexible and adaptive to new experiences and ideas.

Cultivating an open mind is another valuable outcome of critical thinking and reasoning.

People who are open-minded are willing to change their views when presented with new facts and evidence.


You accuse me of not having an open mind, yet you will ignore anything that opposes your view regarding vaccines, believing that somehow invoking the phrases "secret conspiracy" & "big pharma" is proof of something.


You come across as a stubborn fool with a one tracked mind.


And strangely you don't see yourself that way, even tho you use any thread on any topic as a soapboz to post your anti vaccine views


I'm figuring you work in health care


Nope, closest I've come to that is taking courses in first aid & CPR



Sorry, but thats not evidence, just ignorance


Says the "expert" that hasn't posted one shred of evidence to support his beliefs, just the usual anti vaccine blogs from the same discredited people.

( btw I'm still waiting for your link, the one you mentioned in Msg 16 )


I found this at leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk
Its the conclusion reached by special master Abel. the case rests on the following


You stated in a later post "Scd I can't find that link at the moment. I found it while surfing, and thought there was enough addy to get back. I'll keep trying, and may find it more by accident."

No problem, sounded like an interesting article & I would like to read it ( see? a sign of an open mind).
 Dudleyh45
Joined: 8/4/2008
Msg: 24
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/17/2010 10:51:59 AM
To me it doesn't make much difference as i don't like needles, they hurt. I know all the vaccines have to be approved by government but then so did all the chemicals that went into cigarettes and government has approved suing tobacco companies. I don't see drug companies purposely infecting people with something they have no treatment or cure for. There is no profit in killing your customers.
From reading this thread it appears to me there is a group of individuals who feel they have been damaged by vaccines and believe it strongly enough it has become their truth, their religion. I won't waste time debating with them nor would i bother to try showing them evidence that may contradict their beliefs. Once they become fanatical about something it's best just to write them off as another nutjob and leave it at that.
Are vaccines good or bad? well i guess for some people they are good and for some they are bad just like everything else in the world.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 25
are vaccines a dangerous health risk?
Posted: 11/17/2010 2:03:47 PM

From reading this thread it appears to me there is a group of individuals who feel they have been damaged by vaccines and believe it strongly enough it has become their truth, their religion. I won't waste time debating with them nor would i bother to try showing them evidence that may contradict their beliefs. Once they become fanatical about something it's best just to write them off as another nutjob and leave it at that.


I agree with that statement, & as long as said fanatics post & discuss the issue in the proper thread ( such as this one) I have no problem with them or their view & can ignore their parroted mantra.

The problem here is a certain individual seems to feel they need to spread their anti vaccine gospel & have no problem posting about it in any thread they choose. If they post their claims & aren't challenged by others to prove what they claim or to refute their claim then they may walk away with the delusion that everyone agrees with them; which could encourage them to spread out even further.
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