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 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 1
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Last Saturday early afternoon, I went people watching at the Farmers Market at Union Square in Manhattan. It was a beautiful afternoon, and there were thousands of people there over the course of time.

I specifically chose to watch obvious Couples over age 45. The Farmers Market is not a dating event in any sort of way, but rather a place where Couples sharing one roof might go.

First off, it became obvious there were two distinctly different types of Couples in that group. The first type was Couples who appeared to be long term, probably years and decades and decades. The second group was Couples together seemingly recently, maybe two years or less.

Long Term Couples were recognizable by the casualness they had for each other's presence, and their close physical proximity, without constant attention. ALL Long Term Couples I saw the man was as trim or more so than the woman, not that either was necessarily trim. NO heavy men at all in LTC's. None. Though some women were heavy enough to cause their doctor's concern. Am I guessing when I wonder if trim married women won't put up with a fat husband? I dunno, but I didn't see any.

Recent Couples seemed acutely aware of each other's presence and stand/walk closer, talk more frequently, pay more attention to the other, turn to face each other when talking.

First notable regarding Recent Couples. In ALL but three(*), the man was more trim physically than the woman. Not all men were trim (by any means) but in all but three the man was MORE trim than the woman. This tends to be at odds with the "common wisdom", indeed very much so. NO trim woman was with a heavy man. Not one. Hmmmmmmmm.

Second notable. In virtually all Recent Couples, each and both were attractive at a level of 7 or 7-1/2 higher on a 0 to 10 scale. No heavies, no gargoyles. Again, no men less trim (*) than the woman he was with. Some of those women were exceptionally trim, yet all had a man more trim or at least as trim. All.

Third notable. All Recent Couples were well groomed, with decent to higher quality clothing. Generally not particularly expensive, but certainly better quality.

Fourth notable. ALL Recent Couples seemed to be quite nice people, the kind of people you'd be glad to sit next to on a cross country air flight. Decent, personable people.

Fifth notable. No man but one(*) in a Recent Couple was anything but trim, and even that one looked to be a long term athlete running a bit to seed.

The pattern was consistent. Recent Couples (less than two years or so together) were good looking people, well groomed, AND trim.

After a bit, I began to notice there were a number of Solo women who seemed to be interested in meeting a new guy at some point in the near future. Mostly these women were trim (some unusually so), and all wore clothing to separate themselves from the women who did not seem to be "trolling".

Yet ....

........ there was "something" different in those Solo women compared to the women in Recent Couples. Some close watching showed the Solo's had an edge to them which gave me pause, where the women in Recent Couples did not. The Recent's seemed, well, just nice. The Solo's seemed to bear watching and require extra caution. Something. Just a sixth sense, but something.

Chicken and the egg. Did the Solo's turn mellow as part of a Couple, or did the mellows become part of a Couple? I suspect the second.

Late in the game, I began to notice the Solo guys who seemed to be trolling. Two things. One, they seemed confident with no particular edges, and two, they seemed to all wear high quality shirts. They may have, and often did, wear K-Mart quality blue jeans, but their shirts were Brooks Bros style. The shirt seemed to be the "identifier" chosen to express their availability.

My take-away. No man past age 45 has any chance in hell of effecting a new Relationship unless he is trim, perhaps exceptionally so. A warm smile is required. A Brooks Bros shirt is an effective mating signal, a sweatshirt is not. Good grooming, i.e. recent haircut, hair combed, fresh shower/shave, is required.

It appears no woman -- herself fat or otherwise -- will accept any man but a trim man. It appears no man -- himself fat or otherwise -- will accept any woman but a trim one. And the trimness was distinctly notable.

One sunny Saturday afternoon, one park, one city. Perhaps if it were raining results might have been different? Perhaps in Austin Texas, a quality Stetson separates the qual's from the non-qual's?

(*) The three Recent Couples where the woman was more trim than the man in each case they were married, each had both people wearing quite expensive clothing and in each case the woman was wearing a rock notable at a distance. Even then, the man was only a little bit less trim than the woman, ten maybe fifteen pounds max, except for one running-to-seed athlete type. I suspect in even these cases the men were trim when they married. Only three women in these couples, but they didn't seem to look as happy as the other women in Recent Couples.

I'm going to keep on people watching, but the sample size I saw Saturday afternoon was more than large enough to be statistically significant (meaning "measureable with a high degree of confidence", as opposed necesarily to "large" or "substantial").

 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 2
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Posted: 10/4/2010 12:56:18 PM
Unfortunately, none of your observational information is useful, because you started by ASSUMING you could tell at a glance who was a couple, who was a long-term couple, and who was a recent couple. Had you been able to actually verify who was who, your observations might have been illuminating about THEM. Since it was not possible to verify, instead all of your observations illuminate only YOU.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 3
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Posted: 10/4/2010 1:09:19 PM
you started by ASSUMING you could tell at a glance who was a couple, who was a long-term couple, and who was a recent couple


Welllllllll ........ what I did for a living, a good living BTW, for 34 years was to observe people. As Dlck Cavett said, "It's surprising what you can see when you just look."

You are welcome to take the data and use it to effect (this is what you might want to do if you are not satisfied with the status quo), or dump it in a wastebasket as might be your pleasure (if you are satisfied).

Long Term Couples have a casual acceptance of each other's presence and physical proximity. They talk to each other without necessarily turning to face each other. He turns to find she is not there, so he slows his pace or stops until she catches up. She looks to see he is not there, so she goes to where she expects he will be and waits. They meet up, and they continue.

Recent Couples are accutely aware of each other's presence, usually standing closer to each other, often bumping into each other at the hip or shoulder, often touching each other with their hands, more likely to touch the other's face or hair, talk more frequently, and turn to face each other as they talk. They smile at each other more often, sometimes with a sexual smile. They are more likely to sway when talking to each other. They are more likely to be intent on what the other is doing at the moment.
 Blue-Eyes-Shine
Joined: 11/26/2008
Msg: 4
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Posted: 10/4/2010 1:29:53 PM
Really? This doesn't happen with couples under 45?
Sorry WWW, but I started a thread this morning that did actually relate to over 45 dating and it disappeared. Of course it wasn't bashing one gender over the other.

As to your OP, I see the opposite is true in my area in relation to the weight issues.
The solo women had an edge to them? As in focused and hunting their prey?

Yes, men looking to date should pay attention to their grooming and hygiene, so should women.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 5
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/4/2010 1:31:57 PM
I stopped reading this pretty quickly.
It was apparently based on one afternoon of watching couples,
picking and choosing who to notice and who to write about.
I watch people all the time, mostly for my own entertainment.
I certainly don't post it on a blog for all to read as evidence of
my astute observations because it would probably be just as
boring as this was.
I did notice that weight was once again mentioned though.
ahahahahahahahahaha!
I'm going to the fair tonight....I'll watch everyone there and get
back tomorrow with my findings.
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/4/2010 1:38:17 PM
amusing how the responses on the thread are already matching the observations of the op. griping about a deleted thread, griping about references to body composition.

Some close watching showed the Solo's had an edge to them which gave me pause,
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 7
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/4/2010 1:42:59 PM

amusing how the responses on the thread are already matching the observations of the op. griping about a deleted thread, griping about references to body composition.


What is amusing is how the responses on the thread could possibly match the
observations of the op as the setting is entirely different, he is actually confronting
the people on the thread asking for opinions (I'm pretty sure he didn't confront the
people he was observing) and he has no idea of the "body compositions" of the people
responding as he's not met them.

*imagines some people going to the store for oranges and coming home with apples.*
 Blue-Eyes-Shine
Joined: 11/26/2008
Msg: 8
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Posted: 10/4/2010 1:49:48 PM

Of course it wasn't bashing one gender over the other.

Seek and you shall find.

Yes, this is a not so cleverly disguised bashing thread so it shall go on for pages and pages.
We women get it, we are suppose to be put down right and left and just accept the nasty attitude that is constantly displayed by men here.

I am old, fat, ugly, nasty towards all men, unintelligent and delusional to think that any man would have an interest in me especially since I cannot produce another offspring for him.

Come on ladies let's just all agree with them so maybe these forums could actually move on to subjects that would be helpful to dating.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 9
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Posted: 10/4/2010 2:18:27 PM
^^^^ If you'll notice, my statement was that my observations showed women 45+ seemed to have an absolute problem with a man's excess weight.

I saw NO trim woman with a heavy man. None. Not in Long Term Couples, nor in Recent Couples. I DID see LTC's where the man was trim and the woman heavy, sometimes to the point her doctor might be upset with her weight.

Just an observation ...

My take-away. No man past age 45 has any chance in hell of effecting a new Relationship unless he is trim, perhaps exceptionally so.

... to whit, single women seemed to form no relationships at all with men who were not trim. That is their choice to make. What THAT means IS a single man who wants a relationship with a new woman must trim down, or be left behind.

A man can accept a woman's choice or not. THAT is HIS choice. However, if he knows the outcome ahead of time, he either works the system or he fights it.

Another observation. Each and both can be personable, or not, as is their choice.
Again, if either knows the outcome ahead of time, each and/or both work the system or fight it. Personable was an observed fact on BOTH parts in ALL Recent Couples.

Don't rightly reckon jes how that'sa bashing of anys ones.

We all gotta play the cards we're dealt. Fighting the system is fighting the system and usually doesn't work.

In the world of business there is a phrase that goes, "FIRST you identify the problem, THEN you look for a solution."

If one wants to go dear hunting, one has to go where the dear are.
 _TALL_IQ2_
Joined: 2/10/2010
Msg: 10
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/4/2010 2:24:13 PM
What THAT means IS a single man who wants a relationship with a new woman must trim down, or be left behind.


Or, go to the same gym, join the same fitness program, socialize and walk many miles with motivated groups where you meet, make friends and form relationships with LIKE-MINDED people..

Likely where those healthy couples met and/or how they supported each others healthy eating habits
and exercise activities over time...

Within one year most anyone could trim down and build muscle to shape themselves as they want to be..


These threads are certainly not helpful to dating. In fact, I find they could actually turn me into the man-hater I'm already assumed to be because I'm over 45.


Actually listening and ACTING on what works IS helpful.. If one aspires to be athletic but never walks 8 miles..
As I did with a dozen friendly health seekers yesterday- then no cause for complaint...
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 11
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/4/2010 6:35:21 PM
Too funny. . . .

When I lived in NYC, we *didn't* spend the weekends at the farmers' market at Union Square, we spent it in bed, making mad passionate love. . . . Or, alternatively, having wild monkey sex.

OPie, you might want to consider your sample skewed. . . . .


 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 12
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/4/2010 9:15:54 PM
I think the observation was probably correct on any random day in that locale.
I could see 45+ newly dating and trim doing something outdoors to be with each other.
Whereas the 45+ long termed and trim together were just there to buy greens(probably to stay trimed). So these folks had a more defined purpose than each other.

Doesn't mean the non-trim are miserably alone.
Just doing other stuff.
Maybe even cooler funner stuff...
probably indoors.

Observing a tiny slice of life is just that.

So edgy women hang out in farmer's markets?
who knew?

Next week give us an observation at the classier locales.
symphonies or museum.
OR maybe at a fun place like the beach.
And I don't think it will interrupt your science if you
interract with the subjects of your observations.
Cus you may have to do closer research on the cuter non edgier subjects.
Good luck.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 13
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Posted: 10/5/2010 5:41:32 AM
Who here among us would say they are satisfied with the state of their social life, as it stands today? Some ... in committed relationships, perhaps, but who else? And of course, some who want to take a breather in their social life for a bit of time.

Who else?

Probably none, for that is why most of us are here.

It is a truism that if we do what we've always done, we can expect the results we've always gotten.

THAT is why we are here. Either to perfect "what we've always done before" to obtain "better results" THIS time, or ... to try a different approach, the old approaches not working as well as might be hoped.

The data I observed was the data I observed. Everyone is free to use that data to any advantage they might hope to find, if any, or dump the data in the wastebasket because they feel it has no value to them.

I learned something I feel might be useful to me in my quest. If nothing else, I learned just how common Brooks Bros shirts are to men looking to meet a new friend. Useful? I'll see.

Good luck to all.
 URXO2
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 14
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Posted: 10/5/2010 9:35:47 AM
OP, I'd also think those who shop the Farmer's Markets would be more health conscious hence the thinner couples..
As for the thinner man with the heavier woman here in the Midwest that's not necessarily the case, I see all mixtures of couples.
It's impossible for me to tell the newly coupled from the long-term too many variables in that scenario, but you can pick out the dominate member of the pair ( male or female ) in some couples, but I don't see those as healthy or happy relationships.
Then there's what we all search for, the couple that's totally content with each other you can see the correlation, balance, equilibrium that flows between them, this is what a relationship between a man and woman should be, it has little to do with weight.
Not criticizing you OP just adding my 2 ¢
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 15
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/5/2010 11:13:27 AM
I don't think anything in the original post is all that controversial. Once you eliminate the details, it boils down to saying that people who are fit and dress well have a better shot at a relationship. Anyone who thinks that's controversial isn't living on the same planet I am. The only thing that might be (somewhat) surprising is that fit men seem more willing to date somewhat heavier women than most women believe. I'm not sure that surprises me, either. I've noticed that men are not THAT hardnosed about a few extra pounds, especially men who like women with large breasts.


Who here among us would say they are satisfied with the state of their social life, as it stands today? Some ... in committed relationships, perhaps, but who else?

Well, I am. Although I now have a fiancee, I was satisfied with my social life before I met her. That is to say, I enjoyed meeting the women I met here and wasn't in any particular hurry to get into a relationship. It just happened and I was happy to be in a relationship. I do miss being able to meet women and date here, but not enough to question my decision to marry my fiancee.

For the most part, I thought what you observed was rather obvious. Being in good physical condition and dressing well is going to give a person more options in dating. If that bothers people, they should really be bothered by the fact that they have a better chance of swaying a jury if their attorney is tall, fit, good looking and well-dressed. That's just reality.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 16
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/5/2010 1:09:30 PM
I'd be very interested in the demographics of the post dinner time crowd at Whole Foods versus Trader Joe's. . . . . Or the Staten Island Ferry. Oh, so many choices! So many reasons to love New York, eh?

 DrummingNut
Joined: 4/26/2010
Msg: 17
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/5/2010 1:12:06 PM

The pattern was consistent. Recent Couples (less than two years or so together) ...

O for goodness sake.

You don't know how long ANY of those couples have been together.

That puts a gigantic flaw into everything else you've written in opening post.

It turns it all into empty mumbings of fingers on a keyboard.

(and kinda makes you seem... odd)

But as others have pointed out,
(even if you did know length of years being couples),
it was only one venue for one afternoon.
Maybe the different style shirt people were over across town at something else!
 WalksOnWater2
Joined: 5/19/2009
Msg: 18
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/5/2010 1:43:51 PM
I haven't seen such a great collection of assumptions for a long time. (45 or not)


My take-away. No man past age 45 has any chance in hell of effecting a new Relationship unless he is trim, perhaps exceptionally so. A warm smile is required. A Brooks Bros shirt is an effective mating signal, a sweatshirt is not. Good grooming, i.e. recent haircut, hair combed, fresh shower/shave, is required.

It appears no woman -- herself fat or otherwise -- will accept any man but a trim man. It appears no man -- himself fat or otherwise -- will accept any woman but a trim one. And the trimness was distinctly notable.


I browsed the Pof testimonials the other day, and saw that 70% or more of the happy couples were chubby fellows. That alone demolishes your assumption that the trim only get paired.
I never pay attention to the quality of the shirts men wear, and I couldn't tell a Brooks Bros shirt from e Walmart one, if it walked up and brained me.

The assumption that trim men accept only trim women and vice versa it baloney, look at people everywhere, perhaps the farmer’s market in your neighborhood is not the only place people congregate, although I think that your eyes chose to follow only the trim ones.
Then again I may be biased, see, I don’t like very skinny men, I will not look twice at anyone that I can lift off the ground with one arm … People have different tastes.


 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 19
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Posted: 10/10/2010 2:49:09 PM
"what I did for a living, a good living BTW, for 34 years was to observe people."

I wonder what in the world THAT job was. It obviously had nothing to do with science, or marketing analysis, or with anything ELSE that involved actually VERIFYING any of the "data" the OP imagined he gathered.

Apparently, he was able to choose which brand of shirt to wear to try to get laid, so if that DOES work, and he reports back to us, I'm CERTAINLY going to invest heavily in Brooks Brothers stock. THAT would be TRULY useful data.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 20
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Posted: 10/11/2010 6:28:20 PM

I wonder what in the world THAT job was.

i was thinking security or law enforcement of some kind, in which instincts and the ability to recognize the quack of a duck are paramount.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 21
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/13/2010 11:13:57 AM
I was out to lunch today and I noticed that everyone I saw
was either by themselves or with someone else and I tried to
guess if they were co workers or spouses and I decided they
were all having illicit affairs, so I scowled at them so they
would be aware of what I thought about that sort of behavior,
even though I figured they didn't really care or know what I was about.
I also noted some were overweight and I wondered if they were
allowed illicit affairs or if their affairs were more spontaneous.

Next time I'm out, I think I'll ask them so my findings will be more
beneficial.
 Buckets_of_Sky
Joined: 2/7/2010
Msg: 22
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/20/2010 6:14:14 PM
Your next empirical evidence should be gathered at a Big Truck Rally or at a WWF gathering... please report back I am terribly interested in your finding and if they match your first set of assumptions.
 rustytraveler
Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 23
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Posted: 10/21/2010 9:47:05 PM

Ok so the earth is round, the sky is blue and water is wet. So basically your conclusions to this "day of people watching" is that people looking for relationships tend to take care of themselves better, dress better and are more concerned with their appearance than those who are in long term relationships. That is not exactly 6 pm news material is it? I think I could have slept in saturday morning and came to the same conclusions.


There ya go.

But let's also mention that there are cultural biases as well... not every country or neighborhood is the same, even from one end to another. Very slim is also media propaganda ... we consume what we're told to... just look at the fashion industry and their impossible position on selling anorexia as a fashion statement, while the average woman is size 10-12-14. My theory is that it's all part of the love/hate relationship that gay guys in fashion have for females, golden coochie envy with lots sour grapes as far as I'm concerned . Or you could also say there are public personas and couplings and private ones.... and that styles change depending on the era and economic fluctuations, a lot of men in poor countries like fat women... because its a sign of plenty... and the way we're going in the present recession.... fat might once again become fashionable in America .
 *topchef*
Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 24
Couples 45+
Posted: 10/25/2010 4:54:12 PM
That is quite some observation going on there. 1000s of people over an afternoon.

Let's say for the argument....2000 people, and lets say....a 4 hour afternoon. So on average, you observed, calculated and made judgments on approximately 500 people per hour, or 250 couples per hour, or about 4 couples per minute, giving you little more than 15 seconds to make each assessment and subsequent judgement.

Isnt is possible with the thousands of people there, you were naturally drawn to "certain" people, that you overlooked people who did not fit into the intial premise as it was being formed. I suspect the crowd was a little more mixed in terms of the demographics than you would have us believe.

I go to the local farmer's market every weekend in the summer/fall.....and it is all types, all ages and all flavors of people. Just like the rest of the world we live in.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 25
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Posted: 10/25/2010 7:11:09 PM

giving you little more than 15 seconds to make each assessment and subsequent judgement.


Yup, an eternity, including several gulps of coffee and a bite or two on a buttered roll. People specifically telegraph their positions so conclusions can specifically be instantly accurate to all viewing. People WANT you to know who they are.

BTW, the farmer's market at Union Square in Manhattan is in an area of predominately white middle class people. It is a loooooong ways from the effete Upper Eastside, an even longer ways from the (newly) middle class blacks of Harlem and a forever trip for the Hispanics of Washington Heights. It is also a long walk from the weirdo's of the East Village, and too long a walk (with no easy public transportation from the (mostly gay) West Village. It is also a long subway ride from Brooklyn or Queens (which has lower prices anyway) and out of the question for the "bridge and tunnels crowd" from Long Island, New Jersey and Connecticut (difficult to park a car).
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