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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe      Home login  
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 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 1
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Time During The Inflationary Period of the UniversePage 1 of 1    
As the "space "inflated, what did time do? Gravity had separated from the other three forces and density was high. Could this be how the universe expanded faster than the speed of light?
 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 2
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 10/8/2010 8:02:12 AM
in theoretical physics, there is no separation between time and space. that's why they call it space-time.... it's just two different aspects or properties of the same stuff.

you ask what time did when space inflated, but i think you are putting the cart before the horse. we can speculate about space inflating, but why not say that time expanded to a certain frequency and in so doing, created space accordingly? because if light has any speed at all, then it's only because it has some space to move through over time. oh, my braaaaiiinnnnn!

 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 3
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 10/8/2010 11:09:40 AM
your glib opinion about time is woefully uninformed.... of *course* time exists. because if it didn't, space would not exist either. or did you miss that class because you were sitting at roshi's feet in the ol' zendo? i doubt it....

now it's true that there *is* a certain human construct to time, but simultaneously, the human mind is completely independent of time. that's why some people aren't wrapped too tight based on what happened to them in the past. but.... your mind can also go into the future and occupy it just as fully, and that's why athletes practice visualization. or, you can just stay in the eternal now, which is where you always were anyway.

so, time has this dual nature. it is, and it is not, all at the same time! wow, kinda freaky huh. but i say so what... because light has a dual nature as well. it's wave.... not it's not.... it's a particle.... no, it's a wavicle! the universe does funny things like that, and i don't know why, but i DO know that it never ceases to keep doing its thing just because you declare it to be "irrelevant" or that it *only* exists as a "human construct".

 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 4
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 10/8/2010 11:12:27 AM

As the "space "inflated, what did time do?...

...Could this be how the universe expanded faster than the speed of light?


The short answer is that the distance between points is defined such that one fixes the points in space at a particular time (i.e., a timelike slice) and then compares the spatial distances between those points at fixed time intervals. If the spatial distance doesn't change, the observer is said to be at rest, i.e. his velocity may be taken to be zero. If the spatial distance between points changes more slowly than the time intervals but is constant, the observer is moving at some velocity in that coordinate system. (In special relativity, this can always be transformed away globally). If the spatial distance between points increases faster than the time intervals, but are increasing at a constant rate, the points are seperating at a velocity which is ``faster than light.'' However, that would violate relativity. If the spatial distance between points is seperating faster than the time intervals increase AND the seperation distance between time slices is becoming larger with each time slice, seperation is accelerating. Inflation is just accelerated expansion rather than a constant expansion. By definition, the time slicing was fixed to define equal time increments. So, essentially, time didn't do anything. Here's a better explanation:

http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/March03/Lineweaver/Lineweaver2.html
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 5
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 10/8/2010 1:06:27 PM
Considering the mass of this planet we live on is enough to create a noticeable time dilation, albeit small by our perception of time. Imagine having all the mass of the universe concentrated into a smaller space. From our perspective well after the expansion it would appear to have happened very fast, but inside the expansion it could have occurred much slower than what we can measure it from a point where time dilation isn't so extreme.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 6
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Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 10/15/2010 4:00:56 PM
I'm not educated enough to understand the current (or Einsteinian) theories about all this...nevertheless, I'd ask about one thing: the OP mentioned "Gravity had separated from the other three forces". I got to that and thought "wait a minute...as far as I know, all of existence is interwoven. All of the forces are interactive. If anything, we humans try to segregate the forces in our THINKING about them, but in reality, they are really more like quantifiable aspects of the single existence we are aware of.
Also, last I heard, it is still true that no one actually knows what gravity IS. no one knows what CAUSES it. We can calculate it, measure it, and we have found that it has a direct relationship to mass (not the Catholic thingy, or the short name for that odd-shaped state up that-a-way), but we don't know what it is, whether there is such a thing as a Gravity Particle. From what I'm starting to read about string theory, we might be headed toward declaring that there IS no such thing as a particle.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 7
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 11/10/2010 1:42:06 PM

Supposing the outer shell of the big bang travelled slower than the central shells at least initially.


But, from all indications, the physics points to a big bang that initially traveled faster than the speed of light which does not violate Special Relativity since it applies only traveling within spacetime in the universe and not expansion of spacetime itself.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 8
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 11/26/2010 7:27:39 AM

Since there was no mass then there was no gravity and thus space was in its purest form uneffected by localised gravity disturbances?


Well there is one part of "Pure Energy" that just doesn't make any sense at all. Energy is the measurable existence, of an object, in time. It's the entire reason why a particle which radiates a lot of energy has a short lifespan. That's the problem with "Pure Energy", there must be something which is radiating that energy. Space-time doesn't just pop flat once you remove mass from a given location, there is a speed at which that process occurs, which is relative to the speed at which the energy it radiated disperses, and just happens to be the speed of light. It's the catch-22 of the big bang theory, in order for space-time to expand faster than the speed of light, the only logical conclusion is that the speed of light was indeed faster during that time.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 9
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 11/26/2010 1:52:23 PM
It's the catch-22 of the big bang theory, in order for space-time to expand faster than the speed of light, the only logical conclusion is that the speed of light was indeed faster during that time.

Your intuition is misleading you. In a curved space(time) it doesn't make any sense to compare vectors with different base points, so it only makes sense to define a velocity locally. It isn't possible define velocity in a global sense. The simplest example would be for you and a friend to start at the north pole and start walking in opposite directions toward the south pole at a constant speed. You start out walking away from each other, and you end up walking toward each other, yet you never underwent any acceleration nor did you change your speed. That is only possible because the surface of the earth is intrinsically curved. It's impossible to map the surface of a sphere to a plane without cutting it. Anothr example is the bending of light by a gravitational field. Two light rays which start out diverging from each other can end up converging on each other, yet no measurement of the speed of those light rays will ever be anything but constant. Intuition about flat space doesn't translate into curved spacetime. Those regions which seperated faster than the speed of light are not causally connected to us. The rate at which the universe is expanding is accelerating, which means the universe will become smaller and smaller as the regions most distant from us disappear beyond the horizon and are no longer causally connected to us.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 10
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Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 12/6/2010 6:09:11 PM
An article that I just read that sort of relates to this topic:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11837869
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 11
Time During The Inflationary Period of the Universe
Posted: 12/8/2010 7:28:16 AM
How large (in diameter) would the sphere become before translation of the pure energy into some form of mass (quarks hadrons etc) and then into protons and then into Hydrogen.

If you really would like a very detailed answer to those questions and a lot more, I'd recommend getting Steven Weinberg's book, ``The First Three Minutes.'' It's slightly dated, but in general decribes the first three minutes of the universe during which all that stuff took place in the way that fits what we observe. It's very readable regardless of how much or how little physics background you have.

An article that I just read that sort of relates to this topic:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11837869

I sometimes wonder about Penrose. He has some strange views regarding quantum mechanics, too.
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