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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > "Do the dead great the dying?"      Home login  
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 MichelleRenee1234
Joined: 10/19/2009
Msg: 1
"Do the dead great the dying?"Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
This article from CNN:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-18/living/o.end.of.life_1_deathbed-visions-father-elisabeth-k-bler-ross?_s=PM:LIVING

is a discussion about whether or not the common deathbed visions of the dead meeting the dying are real or hallucinations.

Having stood at the side of my mom's deathbed less than 3 months ago, it really hit home. She was, by all appearances, unconscious at the time of her death. The doctor assured us she was not in pain because of the morphine. And this article comforted me by hoping that my mom experienced the consolation of her unliving loved ones coming to be with her at that time... whether or not they're "real" or just electric pulses in her dying brain doesn't matter to me one bit.

The article is interesting, though. The individual who wrote it seems to lean towards the belief that because so many dying people have shared such similar stories about seeing their unliving loved ones before their death, that it must be a reality and not just an hallucination. My natural sceptic tendency is to question it. Does the majority belief proof that something is fact? I don't think so, and numerous occasions throughout history prove that the masses CAN all believe something, or claim to have similar experiences to each other, without those experiences being actual or "real" outside their own perceptions.

What do you guys think? Or what are your experiences?
 MichelleRenee1234
Joined: 10/19/2009
Msg: 2
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 10/22/2010 2:16:24 PM
I didn't realize the mistake. Yeah, "greet" instead of "great" was what I meant to put. Woopsy!


people may experience visions, but chances are their only memories, as nobody sees anyone they don't really recognise do they?


That's what it would seem to me, too. The article uses the fact that it's usually the mother or a mother-type figure who greets the dying. I thought that was unsurprising. The person who, throughout your life, was the most comforting and who guided you seems the likely candidate of who a person would envision welcoming to the afterlife. I hope that when I die, it will be my mom and anyone else I loved and was close to in my life who I see, or imagine seeing.
 WalksOnWater2
Joined: 5/19/2009
Msg: 3
Do the dead greet the dying?
Posted: 10/22/2010 4:35:17 PM

What do you guys think? Or what are your experiences?

Since none of us here has been confirmed dead yet, and since the confirmed dead do not habitually come to the forum to post, your question is about to go unanswered, or you will get some unreliable input, based on hearsay.

Sorry about your mom...

 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 4
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Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 10/23/2010 12:42:39 AM
First of all, I'm so sorry that your mom passed away. I know the grief of losing a parent. In fact, I lost both of my parents not too many years ago.

About three years before my mom died the doctor had requested that she go to the hospital to assess her health better. She had diabetes, blindness, and heart problems. While mom was in the hospital they started giving her a anti-depressant along with her usual assortment of drugs. She started having hallucinations of people who were deceased and times long past. The doctor told us that he was sorry but that she would be dying soon. I couldn't accept that as she had been just fine at home two days prior so I asked for a list of the drugs that they were giving her and went home to research them. I found out what each drug did and what the side effects were. I found out the anti-depressant that they were giving her was three times the maximum dosage for someone her age and that it might just be what was causing her to see these things. Several other medications that she was taking shouldn't have been given to her anymore as well so I went back to the hospital and told my father. The doctor was informed and took her off about 5 medications or so. My mom returned to her normal mental state and was fine.

When someone is dying they often give them morephine to ease their pain and make them more comfortable. The dosage is usually higher than normal and can cause hallucinations.

I don't have any personal experience with dying or a near death experience yet I wonder if perhaps sometimes it is the drugs that give them these experiences.

This was taken from a hospice website:


Morphine can very occasionally cause hallucinations. If the dose of morphine becomes too high, most patients feel drowsy, a few develop nausea, and a small number hallucinate. Hallucinations are most common when morphine is started in too high a dosage. They stop as soon as the dose of morphine is reduced.
http://www.hospiceworld.org/book/hallucinations.htm


There are several other explanations for hallucinations in that article.

I, personally would like to believe that those that we knew and who died come to greet us as we are dying ourselves but who really knows for sure.
 FoshFish
Joined: 4/30/2010
Msg: 5
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 10/24/2010 9:06:35 PM
"The individual who wrote it seems to lean towards the belief that because so many dying people have shared such similar stories about seeing their unliving loved ones before their death, that it must be a reality and not just an hallucination. "

The dying people who shared these stories were discussing them after their deaths.

If they were dying, and if they shared their experiences during the dying process.

I therefore propose that those alive still can't have heard any words of the discussions between the dying after their deaths.

If the dying did not die, then they were not dying.

It is a quo ipse qualmo chichi quo dritte vergangenheit fallacy.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 6
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 10/25/2010 12:17:29 AM
two people I know, who had near death experiences, from totally different cultures and locations had visions. In their visions they saw a young girl in a white dress in the corner of the room.
Several people I know had dreams months before being diagnosed with cancer, or having fatal heart attacks, that their deceased loved ones visited them and talked to them and said they would see them soon. Maybe their brains short circuited in their sleep.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 7
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Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 10/29/2010 5:34:13 PM
Randi the Magician has for at least ten years offered $1,000,000 to anyone who can furnish proof of psychic abilities or any paranormal phenomena. The prize has gone uncollected. Numerous other individuals and organizations have offered sums of money to anyone who can prove any paranormal phenomena. To date, no one has collected.

There is no evidence that there is life after death.

People who have fallen from tremendous heights and survived have often reported similar experiences - that time seemed to slow, that memories of their lives flashed through their minds. Apparently under certain circumstances, our brains will do that. Does that mean that time actually slows down? No. Our experience of it is distorted.

Our brains are capable of producing very believable images. People who have near-death experiences often report similar visions. However, no one has died and then come back and told us about their experience. Individuals believe they are visited by deceased persons but this has never, ever been corroborated. If the dead can return to us, why don't they do it more often and why don't they show themselves to more than one person at a time?

http://www.skepdic.com/randi.html
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 8
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 10/30/2010 4:48:23 PM

is a discussion about whether or not the common deathbed visions of the dead meeting the dying are real or hallucinations.

There is no way to know the difference because your brain can not differentiate between the two.

If you are hallucinating, there is a very good chance you do not know you are hallucinating, thus you will perceive it as real.

So regardless what someone says, there is no way to prove it either way.

You can only attempt to explain it, and with the given published knowledge in the field of neurology I would say it is a hallucination.
 FoshFish
Joined: 4/30/2010
Msg: 9
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 10/31/2010 4:26:34 PM
They also reject people by saying "it would be a waste of time to test you, you're joking about your ability." etc

That proves in no ambiguous way that they are not psychic.

Sour grapes, big time, éh?

Only another psychic who knows how it feels exactly, can truly observe other psychics doing their psychic sutff.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 10
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/6/2010 5:48:37 PM

I won't say for certain that it is an actual relative that greets us at death, however. Consciousness can assume any form in our vision. Some dying people see angels. It seems that we are greeted by whatever or whoever we most want and are comfortable with to greet and escort us outta here.

I can say with pretty good certainty that you are greeted with the biggest endorphin rush you have ever had. (heroin users aside).

That cascade of drugs in your system will send you on the trip of your life.

Accounts of what people have seen or done are just memories conjured up by your brain and because you have no idea you are dead you assume you are in conscious state and your memories are only memories of a dream.
 FoshFish
Joined: 4/30/2010
Msg: 11
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/7/2010 9:25:22 PM
Plursty!!! You spake my truth.

I used to have an aunt whom I hated dearly. It was mutual. I often speak to her now that she is dead. Her favourite color was red, and her favourite element, oxigen. Mostly in pure oxygen molecules, but she liked that element in other compounds, too.

When she was surrounded by oxygen, she was in her element.

So whenever I think of her, I all of a sudden realize that I'm alwas no more than three degrees of separation away from Oxygen.

However, geese... yes, in my town not, but in the town, called Mississauga, in Ontario, geese are everywhere. They are a problem. They beg strangers for food, they chase dogs up trees, they are loud and they drop their pooh pooh everwhere; the droppings are large and big and smelly.

I often wondered why Canada Goose is a protected species. It is not about to go extinct. It is actually overpopulating the planet, just like people, yet they are illegal to shoot down, just like people. At least in Canada.

I also wonder that if they don't get shot down, where do we get all the down for our Canadian Parkas?

So what I am trying to say is that I can't figure out if you were sarcastic or saying the most emotional truth in your life.

I say nobody can talk to the dead, but you say you do; and I don't say I am more right than you are. I can't argue with your subjective experiences, I can't argue they never happened. That would be too stupid of me. I can't tell you that I know better what you experience than you do. That would be extremely stupid of me.

But the geese... you went over the top with that. Sorry, you can't expect me to believe that geese appear on trucks. There are no goose roadkills, sorry. I drove taxi for forty-seven years, in Mississauga, before I retired, and there was no goose trumpled on the pavement, ever.

So... goose. Geese. Good one.
 HereN916
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 12
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/10/2010 4:41:45 AM
Plursty, I experience the same from my sister, mother and now from my best friend who passed away New Year's Day. I get specific signs from each. I could tell you a story and provide the picture of what I believe my mom sent to me, to let me know she is still around, just not in the physical sense.

For those that don't believe in haunted houses and/or ghosts, shadows, spirits, I can tell you those things do exist. I know, as I and my two kids lived in a haunted house for three years and each of us saw the ghosts/spirits/shadows. And each of us saw them at different times. I was in my 30's, didn't drink or do drugs and was not suffering from dementia and saw these two spirits or ghosts both in the day and night. They do exist and if not, then my kids and I, were sharing the same hallucination!
 TravelingLight
Joined: 12/3/2009
Msg: 13
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/10/2010 9:51:41 PM
When people report perceiving things beyond the range of senses, when they are being perceived by other awake people at a distance, when they sometimes leave a physical mark at the same time and place they felt they were etc

Well the skeptics trying to tell us that it's just a deathbed hallucination, that we can provoke at will some of the aspects of the NDE, etc, can just shut up. All aspects of the NDE haven't been proven false.
They either don't have the mental rigor to examine these things properly or they want to cover something up.

And don't tell us about James Randi, he has a particularly bad reputation as an investigator.

Anybody who is well acquainted with the subject and with psychic phenomena in general, without bias, knows there's something to it. It's not just a hallucination or illusion.
But some people who are narrow-minded about paranormal phenomena don't accept the possibility that these things might exist, and don't examine the data very fairly.

I'm not making any statement as far as specifics go, but I doubt we have to reject people's NDE as mere hallucination.

As in all things examine it, but don't go in there with a preconceived idea.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 14
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/11/2010 7:27:41 AM

But some people who are narrow-minded about paranormal phenomena don't accept the possibility that these things might exist, and don't examine the data very fairly.

Please then provide us with the data that supports your claim.


Also I think you may find these videos helpful.


Open-mindedness
http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup#p/u/4/T69TOuqaqXI
From: QualiaSoup | March 31, 2009
A look at some of the flawed thinking that prompts people who believe in certain non-scientific concepts to advise others who don't to be more open-minded.



Critical Thinking
http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup#p/u
From: QualiaSoup | December 24, 2009
A look at some of the principles of critical thinking.
 TravelingLight
Joined: 12/3/2009
Msg: 15
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/16/2010 12:04:00 AM
Please then provide us with the data that supports your claim.

Also I think you may find these videos helpful.


You don't understand my point. The fact is that after having read what many skeptics say about paranormal phenomena, and finding that there is a striking bias against it (they don't always report fully and often try to find a way to spin it as if it was all a nice hallucination), I think they're not trustworthy. As a group anyway.

Just take the NDE: people have reported perceiving things beyond the normal range of senses.
Well, once skeptics were able to -seemingly- reproduce the tunnel effect, they started giving the impression that the NDE was just a hallucination. They hadn't actually addressed all aspects of the NDE, especially the ones that would help demonstrate it was more than a hallucination, but they still harp on about their little success and dismiss the experience. If they had been able to disprove the 'validity' of the perceptions at a distance, that would have been a much stronger point.
NDE and other experiences have yielded this perception at a distance thing. Just because it's not reproducible at will doesn't make it false.
And if you want to claim that a phenomenon isn't real, debunk it's most critical aspect(s). The tunnel isn't as important to debunk as the perceptions people have which can't be explained.

I am saying they aren't being fair. I don't even have to prove my point anymore than this, I'm merely, simply pointing out that there are people trying to pass off their group as competent observers and who know how to do better research than many researchers (like those magicians who say they wouldn't be subject to fraud as much as a naive researcher might), and yet.. they seem to be less critical-minded- or is that honest ? than your average researcher. Ironically. Even a non-scientist can quickly find the weaknesses of their demonstrations.

They either have huge biases or are trying to cover something up.
 gentlemuse
Joined: 4/2/2010
Msg: 16
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/16/2010 7:46:20 PM
I think the afterlife is a manifestation of whatever you imagine it to be.
 TravelingLight
Joined: 12/3/2009
Msg: 17
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/16/2010 8:30:59 PM
@ChesireCatalyst That's a long post that doesn't change a darn thing to what I said.

Skeptics have often misrepresented anything paranormal, to the point where their own critical thinking ability seemed questionable. Or was it that they were being downright dishonest about the whole deal??
I don't need need lessons on critical thinking myself, I've only stated how unreliable skeptics (and other critics) of paranormal phenomena have been.
And that is a fact. Maybe not all skeptics, individually, but as a group they are.

No need to tell me there isn't definitive proof, of NDEs. I already know that. I'm saying the skeptics are unreliable. They're biased or dishonest, they can't be trusted on the matter.

And you're doing the same thing I find among skeptics: Your example of the lucid dreamer or traveler.
Always a negative example, something that didn't work. And an attempt to relegate the whole thing to an aberration due to drugs, in this case. As if your example was significant.
People can also dream that they're walking. Even if they weren't, at the time- doesn't mean walking is impossible.
People can also sometimes throw a ball in the hoop from 160 feet, maybe just once out of a 100. Just because they can't do it on command doesn't mean it can't happen. Just because it seems fantastic to you doesn't mean it's not possible.

Pointing to examples where it didn't work is easy, and misleading.

Well, there are also the examples where not only did it work, -the NDE, the out-of-body or whatever- but in some cases the person at the other end felt or perceived a presence at the time of the occurrence. Sometimes in unplanned occurrences (so the person wasn't suggesting themselves into perceiving someone, something...)

The 'Pro-' examples are no more anecdotal than yours, but interestingly, you posted something which was bound to be in favor of skeptics.
In the other examples, skeptics would be stumped. And I suspect they (or some of them) would try to cover them up, or put a negative spin on the entire thing, instead of simply admitting they were stumped and that it might be an actual example of something real.

Those are the ones you should mention and demonstrate how not valid they are. Not ones where someone's mental faculties were evidently in doubt.

My whole point was about the slant, the bias, the dishonesty in some cases, in treating the subject. I've noticed that sort of thing over and over for years.
You seem to be repeating the same pattern.

Or you don't get my point?

Once again:




What are those weaknesses in this particular case? If scientists are "less critical minded" it's usually because they have had the same scenarios presented over and over again; scenarios that were already either unprovable, unknowable, or proven to be outright false.


I'm referring to people who have poor demonstrations to back up their conclusion: such as being able to replicate - it seems- the tunnel effect. And along with a few other arguments based on what they know of how the brain functions with less oxygen, etc. they conclude grandly, that NDEs are bullshit.

They didn't make a strong demonstration at all. They only managed to perform a few interesting things with people and haven't really demonstrated NDEs were crap.

That's what I meant by 'weakness' of the demonstration. It (how poor it was) also may be indicative of a strong slant, on the part of the researchers.

And for the record, I'm not asserting that NDEs are true afterlife experiences. I'm merely denouncing the lack of fairness in treating the subject.
Although I do think there's a chance for such things to be real.

Cheers.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 18
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/17/2010 2:48:22 PM

Skeptics have often misrepresented anything paranormal, to the point where their own critical thinking ability seemed questionable. Or was it that they were being downright dishonest about the whole deal??

Please cite sources of your claim that skeptics have often misrepresented anything paranormal and where you can show how their critical thinking can be questioned.




I don't need need lessons on critical thinking myself, I've only stated how unreliable skeptics (and other critics) of paranormal phenomena have been.
And that is a fact. Maybe not all skeptics, individually, but as a group they are.

Again please cite source and show where they have been unreliable.




Pointing to examples where it didn't work is easy, and misleading.

So if you where trying to disprove someones ability to walk on water, how other than showing examples of where it didn't work would you prove that it can not be done?



Can you prove one example of a clinical trial where it was proven that the dead great the dieing?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 19
Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 11/18/2010 3:29:23 PM

Those who have become aware in this way, alas, cannot but seldom penetrate the mind of the sceptic with their truth. It remains for the sceptic to open his mind and change his path and his heart first before any revelation may occur.


In other words, 'you won't see it unless you believe in it.'

That's more of a formula for self-deception. Something either exists or doesn't, regardless of what I 'believe.'
 PerceptionTheNight
Joined: 10/8/2010
Msg: 20
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Do the dead great the dying?
Posted: 12/7/2010 10:02:49 AM
First, I would like to start with this. "Perception is reality." Now we all have different perceptions, so we all have different realities. No one can see reality for what it truly is.

Second, I am replying to this entire thread. It seems the button I clicked to post, is under the assumption I am only replying to rathlinlighthouse. This is not the case.

On to my experience. I have been declared dead twice. The first time I was very young and my recollection is weak at best. The second time I died, I was 20. A drunk ran a red light and well you gt the picture. I didn't see a white light, I didn't even know I was dead. I lived an entire other life. People who were alive, people who were dead. None of it mattered. They were all there. There was no drunk driver. No accident. I thought I was living. I thought I was alive. It's hard to explain, it was kinda like a dream. You don't notice the things that are not quite right until you wake. I grew old, I felt years pass by. I loved and lost.

All of this happened in the six minuets that my heart was stopped. I wouldn't be here posting if it wasn't for the quick response of the Para-Medics and their CPR/AED. This had a big impact on my decision to become a Para-Medic, but I digress.

With all of this said, I pose a question to you. Does time have meaning in death? Why is it believed that only dead loved ones welcome you into deaths embrace.? If time has no meaning in death, what would stop the living from the welcome committee? I mean, we all have to die. Now if time doesn't matter in death, then we would all die at the same time. These are some abstract thoughts I know. Yet again though, it all comes down to perception being reality. In my death, I perceived life. And that became my reality. Until life called me back.

This was my experience. Take it as you will. Learn something or don't. Accept my words, or don't. This is a topic I very much enjoyed. If anyone has any questions about anything I have said, please feel free. I will answer to the best of my ability.
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