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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Why are the Birds and Fish dying .      Home login  
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 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 2
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
well the fish kills in louisiana are easy to explain given the recent oil spill and all the other crap they pumped into the water to try to contain it.

as for the birds.... we will probably never know. (the "fireworks" and "thunderstorm" theories that were recently offered are absurd but rather interesting examples of covert wordplay. durn it vern, i'm surprised they haven't yet blamed it on "swamp gas".) i would personally chalk it up to government experiments in microwave or infrasound "less-than-lethal" weaponry and stuff like that. after all, it's usually frowned up on when they aim these things at people unless there's an actual riot going on.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 3
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 7:30:21 AM
I'd start with natural causes, first. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.
 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 4
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 7:44:42 AM
i agree with you in general principle, but the point was made about these birds they had all suffered "internal damage". so natural causes??? well yes, internal organ damage is the natural outcome of certain "less than lethal" technologies. when you hear hoofbeats, it might be neither horses nor zebras, but wild buffalo or a pygmy goats. you won't know until ya know, but other circumstances certainly play a factor.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 5
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 8:53:09 AM
Ecosystems are way too complex to make such tenuous connections to the things you mention. You could equally well ask why everything else didn't die, too. You can easily make a connection when the proximate cause is obvious, but really, HAARP? That's just konspiracy theorist paranoia.

does this sort of thing just happen all the time


Ecosystems are nonlinear coupled (chaotic) systems. There are often ``islands of stability'' for within which the populations of predators, prey and other food and resources oscillate back and forth. However, because of the nonlinearity, the system can reach a point where a very small change in any one thing will make the entire system unstable with catastrophic results. Unfortunately, real ecosystems are far too complex to analyze systematically and be certain about too much. You can search for ``predator prey problem'' using google and find detailed analyses for highly simplified examples (like two species) and get a feel for the dynamics and complexity of what it would require to analyze a more realistic system.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 8
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 11:05:14 AM

some sources are stating a movement of the magnetic north pole as one possibilty of whats causing the bird and animal deaths , is this possible ?

It's possible, but I doubt anyone could say that it's responsible for sure. Many species do make use of the earth's magnetic field when migrating, but the poles are never very stable. They shift all the time. The latest shift is supposedly the largest in over a century, but whether that was enough to confuse birds and fish would seem to require more effort to pin down that anyone has done so far.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 9
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 12:04:22 PM

is this site just another case of BS on the internet or is there any truth in it ?


Is it true that the magnetic pole shifts? Yup. It's been observed for years? Is it possible that this is a significant factor? To my knowledge, there's no positive evidence to that effect. And simply saying "it's so" doesn't make it so.

As abelian pointed out, ecosystems are complex thing. It's a little dangerous to make assumptions.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 10
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 12:26:04 PM
I'm keeping one of my many secret alien eyes on this. My biggest caution at the moment, is that once ONE mass animal death is reported, other reporters tend to bump up the possible importance of deaths THEY see, and so there is a batch of reports...but whether there has actually been a rise in DEATHS, or simply a rise in REPORTING, isn't clear.
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 12
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 5:36:35 PM
I think its a combination of many things pollution, profit v.s. environment, the ecological changes in the world both natural/and man made, and amount of chemicals/preservetives found in our processed food that becomes part of the natural food chain.

Science has taken a huge step forward in DNA and I hope by studying and cataloging DNA these people can help figure it out.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 14
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 6:23:14 PM
Since the reports are from all over the world, and each is isolated, the greatest likelihood is that each will have it's own cause. If a whole bunch of them happened in ONE place, we'd suspect poison, or government/industrial testing/accidents.
It reminds me of the old joke "what can you brush your teeth with, sit on, and eat off of?" Answer: a toothbrush, a chair, and a dinner plate.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 15
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/14/2011 11:42:27 PM
Well there have been a few articles which could yield a clue as to what's going on.

The most foremost in my mind was an article about bacteria that has flourished after the BP oil spill. There must be some by-product from the bacteria's process of breaking down the oil, likely the by-product is hazardous. If that by-product is lighter than water it will float up and evaporate into the atmosphere, given the location that could spread all over the world rather easily.

The second article was a satellite which detected traces of anti-matter jets caused by thunderstorms, specifically anti-electrons. It was detected after the jet collided with the satellite's outer shell and reacted close enough for the instrumentation to pick up. It's a long shot given the nature of diffusion, but if those jets are reflected back down at the surface of the Earth it could have some interesting effects on any number of things. It's important to note the satellite which detected the jets was a newer satellite designed to study atmospheric conditions, likely it contains some materials/alloys that were either not used previously or higher grade than what was used previously, specifically something that deflects/reflects those specific particles in a less diffuse manner.

The others I'm not really awake enough to remember major details from, but the point is, a lot has happened recently which could alter conditions just enough to provide imbalances. Sadly I do not have the faith to trust that once the cause is found anything will really be done about it other than token changes to win over the public in a political arena.
 Ailliss
Joined: 3/16/2010
Msg: 16
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/15/2011 12:27:41 AM
Last week a scientist said these massive deaths of birds and fish were not phenomenal, that this happens all the time but due to the easy access of news we now share all over the world we are simply more aware of these remarkable happenings.

I did not think this sensible, a bit too simplistic IMO. I believe the following makes sense:


Fox News was very active yesterday, as one of the only major news channels exploring the dead bird and dead fish theories, talking to scientists, as well as researching the vast numbers of dead bird and dead fish events in the last few weeks. Fox News reports that there have been over 30 incidents of mass wildlife dying off in the last few weeks around the world.
One of the more intriguing theories was the shifting of the magnetic poles. Birds and fish are sensitive to the magnetic field, and use it for navigation purposes, according to Nova on PBS. The earth’s magnetic field is shifting at the rate of 40 miles per year towards Siberia.
Tampa Airport is closed today as the runways are being painted with new compass readings for the pilots. As plane makes it’s descent into Tampa airport, the number that the pilot needs to set his compass heading to, appears in large numbers on the runways in Tampa. The shifting of the magnetic poles over the last few years have rendered the numbers incorrect.
The new compass alignment numbers are being painted this week, as Tampa Airport remains closed to get this done. This is major evidence of the shifting of the poles, which Nova says happens once every 250,000 years. It appears that the earth is in the middle of that shift right now.

This could cause the birds and the fish navigation senses to be off. The fish could be swimming into cold water because their navigating instincts point them in that direction causing their deaths, or they can be simply swimming into shore instead of away from shore and dying. The fish found in rivers could have exhausted themselves swimming against the movement of the river, instead of with the river’s flow?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 17
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/15/2011 8:05:31 AM
I haven't seen any reports where people witnessed either birds FALLING in a group, or fish BEACHING in a group, they have just found the bodies later.
The problem with the "moving magnetic north" theory, is that even at forty miles per year (the rate the NORTH pole is currently moving), the effect on a fish or a bird would be so slow that they would not be THAT confused. Realize that 40 miles per YEAR, is less than FIVE ONE-THOUSANTH OF A MILE PER HOUR. That would mean that you would be saying that the birds AS A GROUP would not be able to avoid a large object that moved in front of them at that speed, and that the fish would be unable to cope with the margins of a river changing at that rate. If either of those scenarios were possible, we would not be having this discussion, because either we'd have been seeing mass deaths since the beginning if time, or we would have long since seen the end of birds and fish on the planet.
I do think it's quite possible that there are things going on that we need to be paying attention to, and that these deaths are indicators that things need to be done, but what I am expecting is that we will find that a bunch of DIFFERENT and unrelated local things need to be dealt with. Large fish kills can be caused by illegal dumping of toxic materials by a company or an individual. Large bird kills can be a result of other man-made trashings of a local environment.
As for the recent articles about the discovery that lightning storms are generating anti-matter, that is meaningless in this context as well. What was RECENTLY recognized, is that antimatter has ALWAYS been generated this way, NOT that the creation of antimatter by storms is a brand new phenomenon. Again, had this been related, we'd be used to the mass deaths, and would not be noticing them.
 twister239
Joined: 5/17/2010
Msg: 19
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/15/2011 11:06:22 AM
Myself I think its a more natural event instead of anything sinister like the gubbermit or HAARP.
I read all this stuff about the sun and wonder if it has to do with the coronal holes that are currently happening on the surface. Of course these are natural and happen all the time but what is concerning, is the size and frequency of these holes ,and the timing of strange weather patterns around the globe.
Here is a link to the best explanation I have found so far , sounds more reasonable then the fireworks crap they try feeding sheeple. I think even the sheep are starting to wonder what we have in store for us over the next couple years...cause SOMETHING isnt right here. Just read a report a few hours ago of 200 cows found dead now.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DiscerningAngels/message/56507
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 20
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/15/2011 2:01:11 PM
Have you seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind? Are you starting to make mountains with your mash potatoes? Do your children's toys run amok on their own? Map Quest Devil's Mt. and gas up the car!

I'm in the, when you hear mooing, think cow crowd. I don't know, I'll wait and see. I don't own a tinfoil hat.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 22
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/15/2011 7:17:11 PM
Various reasons.

The Arkansas bird kill is thought to have been caused by fireworks. When they examined the birds, they found internal injuries that they conclude were caused by the concussion of the fireworks.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-01-05-arkansas-dead-birds-fireworks_N.htm

As for the other kills, reasons vary. I've heard of fish kills before numerous times over the years.

Of more concern to me is the worldwide decline in the frog population. That's not isolated the way the bird and fish kills are. That's pretty much all over.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 23
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/16/2011 6:38:22 AM
Much of the Arkansas bird massacre blunt trauma was from flying into buildings and other hard objects. Between the lights and noise from the fireworks, massive disorientation occurs. An extended disruption from being off their perches could have exhausted the energy stores of many, exacerbating the collision rates.

There are a number of stupid human tricks causing hundreds of millions to billions of bird deaths annually. http://www.abcbirds.org/newsandreports/releases/110107.html
While buildings and cats are purportedly the leading causes documented for now, we are in uncharted territory in what the effects of GM crops may be doing, or bt, new pesticides, microwave pollution, etc.

Amphibian decimation, bee colony collapse, white nose syndrome in bat colony collapse, along with these fish kills, bird kill events, and other trends should lead us to become more committed to the precautionary principle. If these things are occuring at increasing rates across numerous species, it's only a matter of time that one of the causal factors could similarly affect the human herd.

Bayer pesticides have been implicated in bee kills. CCD is occuring all over the place as well as amphibian decline.
http://magic.server101.com/bayer-kills-bees/
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 24
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/16/2011 2:55:01 PM
There has been so many disasters both natural and man made since 2000. I believe the tsunamies (sp?), 9/11, massive flooding around the world, volcano ash eruptions and other things I have forgotten to mention has sturred up a lot of pollution both natural and man made. I also believe that we are feeling the effects of these disasters. Many rescue workers in New York City are sick and dying or dead with cancer from the concrete dust on 9/11. Tsunamies and floods stir up and redeposit all kinds of things from river/lake beds and the oceans. I personally think there are too many occurrances and the fragile life system on earth cannot cope with it.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 26
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/17/2011 3:07:09 AM
If you remember, the dead birds were found a couple of days after a rash of rare winter tornadoes hit Arkansas. There were some scientists who thought the birds could have been killed from collisions with hail stones high in the sky. That would make sense considering the coincidence of the tornadoes. Hail frequently accompanies tornadoes.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 28
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/21/2011 1:11:37 AM
"Every winter, there's massive and purposeful kills of these blackbirds," says Greg Butcher, the bird conservation director at the National Audubon Society. "These guys are professionals, and they don't want to advertise their work. They like to work fast, efficiently, and out of sight."
http://www.truth-out.org/bye-bye-blackbird-usda-acknowledges-a-hand-one-mass-bird-death67028
Bye Bye Blackbird: USDA Acknowledges a Hand in One Mass Bird Death
Thursday 20 January 2011

by: Patrik Jonsson | The Christian Science Monitor | Report

Atlanta - It's not the "aflockalyptic" fallout from a secret US weapon lab as some have theorized. But the government acknowledged Thursday that it had a hand in one of a string of mysterious mass bird deaths that have spooked residents in Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama, South Dakota, and Kentucky in the last month.
The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) took responsibility for hundreds of dead starlings that were found on the ground and frozen in trees in a Yankton, S.D., park on Monday.
The USDA's Wildlife Services Program, which contracts with farmers for bird control, said it used an avicide poison called DRC-1339 to cull a roost of 5,000 birds that were defecating on a farmer's cattle feed across the state line in Nebraska. But officials said the agency had nothing to do with large and dense recent bird kills in Arkansas and Louisiana.
Nevertheless, the USDA's role in the South Dakota bird deaths puts a focus on a little-known government bird-control program that began in the 1960s under the name of Bye Bye Blackbird, which eventually became part of the USDA and was housed in the late '60s at a NASA facility. In 2009, USDA agents euthanized more than 4 million red-winged blackbirds, starlings, cowbirds, and grackles, primarily using pesticides that the government says are not harmful to pets or humans.
In addition to the USDA program, a so-called depredation order from the US Fish and Wildlife Service allows blackbirds, grackles, and starlings to be killed by anyone who says they pose health risks or cause economic damage. Though a permit is needed in some instances, the order is largely intended to cut through red tape for farmers, who often employ private contractors to kill the birds and do not need to report their bird culls to any authority.
"Every winter, there's massive and purposeful kills of these blackbirds," says Greg Butcher, the bird conservation director at the National Audubon Society. "These guys are professionals, and they don't want to advertise their work. They like to work fast, efficiently, and out of sight."
Bird Kills Turning Too Zealous?
The depredation order, however, is under review for its impact on the rare rusty blackbird, which roosts with more common species. Ornithologists also suspect that the mass killings may be a factor in declining populations of those species in the US.
While the USDA keeps tabs on the number of birds the program euthanizes, the total death toll isn't known because private contractors operating under the depredation order aren't required to keep count in the case of blackbirds, cowbirds, grackles, and starlings.
At a time when it's often tough to tell the difference between the corporate news and its advertisements, it's essential to keep independent journalism strong. Support Truthout today by clicking here.
"My biggest concern is we don't know how many birds are being killed, and we don't have a sense of how at risk the rusty blackbird is because of depredation events in their range," says Mr. Butcher.
Yankton animal control officer Lisa Brasel told KTIV-TV that she first believed a cold snap had killed some 200 European starlings that were found dead in Riverside Park, reminding some residents of the final scenes of Alfred Hitchcock's thriller, "The Birds."
But then she said she received a call from a USDA official who said the agency had poisoned a roost of starlings 10 miles south of Yankton. Usually such poisonings result in flocks falling directly out of their tree roosts. But in this case, the birds traveled a fair distance before falling. "They were surprised they came to Yankton like they did and died in our park," said Brasel, according to KTIV-TV.
continued at link.....
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 31
Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 1/31/2011 3:54:52 PM
Covered this in another forum.



TENS of THOUSANDS of dead birds fell to the ground in Manitoba, Canada.
http://tinfoilpalace.eamped.com/2011...irds-and-fish/

Well surprise, surprise, I live here. Now let's do a search on this. From



Manitoba, Canada, 3 January 2010
10,000s of Birds Found Dead in Manitoba
Cause : local reports suggest bird flu

http://www.bbsradio.com/cgi-bin/webb...=read;id=11811

So let's look into this one,




Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada

Officials from Health Canada are scrambling to deal with the sudden death of 10′s of thousands of wild birds somewhere in the province. Officials dodged local reporters who were removed from outside the Level-4 Canada Science center.

Local reports have circulated that an extremely virulent strain of bird flu has infected both wild and farm birds. At the same time an extremely aggressive winter flu has hit Canada sometime in December and mortality rates are expected to rise alarmingly in vulnerable populations...

http://www.bbsradio.com/cgi-bin/webb...=read;id=11811

So Health Canada is 'scrambling' looking into a 'extremely virulent strain of bird flu' somewhere in the province. Also reporters were 'removed' from in front of the 'Level-4 Canada Science center'

Well if it was a real reporter the probably would have use the right name of the place, the Canadian Science Centre for Human and Animal Health, or more commonly refered as the National Microbiology Laboratory (notice the proper Canadian spelling of Centre, not center).

And working down the street from the lab (the lab sits on a public street and it is very unlikely reporters were removed, that would have made our front page) I might have heard about it.

So further investigation does bring up a report of bird flu on a Manitoba turkey farm.



A confirmed case of the avian flu, also known as bird flu, has been discovered on a Manitoba turkey farm.

Provincial health officials said Wednesday the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has not yet determined if the strain is the deadly H5N1.

Officials said Wednesday it is unlikely that it is.

The case was discovered on a breeding farm for turkeys in the Rural Municipality of Rockwood just north of Winnipeg in the last 24 hours. The farm is currently under quarantine, according to Manitoba Health officials.

Officials said turkeys on the farm have been laying fewer eggs than normal.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2010/...toba-farm.html

Now I do not bother with local news rags but in this case since Selkirk is a stones throw from Rockwood (where I worked a few years back) and Selkirk being in the heart of farming country I will give them a level of credibility.



RM OF ROCKWOOD - Thousands of turkeys have been destroyed at a Rockwood-area turkey operation following a diagnosis of a low-pathogenic strain of avian influenza in mid-November.

Concerns first arose on Nov. 18 when the owner of the farm discovered some of his birds were not producing eggs. The farm, which contained about 8,200 turkeys, sells eggs to hatcheries and does not produce birds for consumption. The owner contacted a private veterinarian, who collected some samples which eventually ended up in a provincial lab.

A diagnosis of a strain of H5 avian influenza was confirmed shortly afterward, and the farm was quarantined, though the exact strain — the low-pathogenic H5N2 variety — was not confirmed officially until a media briefing held by the province on Nov. 25. Dr. Rick James-Davies, regional director of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) told media during the briefing that three other locations in Manitoba had also been put under quarantine as a precautionary measure.

The approximately 8,200 turkeys at the operation have since been humanely euthanised and preparations for disposal are underway. James-Davies said during the briefing that the owner of the operation will be fairly compensated for the lost turkeys.

http://www.selkirkjournal.com/Articl...aspx?e=2871100

So there you have it.



TENS of THOUSANDS of dead birds fell to the ground in Manitoba, Canada.

More like destroyed so no government starts to ban our farm products like they did for years with the BSE (Mad Cow Disease) that was found a few years back.


I wonder how many other reports grew to the point of being the coming of the end of days?
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 32
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 2/15/2011 7:01:53 AM

I'm not sure whether it has been selectively mapped, but the placement of the mass deaths on the map are interesting:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=201817256339889828327.0004991bca25af104a22b

The only thing I see there is that there seems to be a relation between these deaths and high population areas. It could be nothing more than just correlation - more people, better chance of observation.
 junipermoon
Joined: 3/1/2006
Msg: 36
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 3/26/2011 4:14:58 PM
i have no problem with whatever kills off starlings.

but when the native species start falling out of the sky dead, we do have a serious problem.

last fall, a hundred or so canada geese fell out of the sky near here. come to find out, they'd been shot.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 37
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Why are the Birds and Fish dying .
Posted: 3/26/2011 5:20:54 PM
The supposed "superiority" of the human species has worn out it's welcome. When we ignore the canaries in the coal mine, we spell the end of our species. Kinda ironic and funy and tragic at the same time. We are the all time champions of species for denial as far as we know. Dead dinosaurs, birds, frogs, etc...can surely have nothing to do with US. We are speshal. Immune to the laws of nature, of food, water, and air supplies. We can do NO wrong. Clever monkeys...minor, but fatal flaws built in. It would be funny to watch, were it not so tragic and deadly for so man other species that we are taking out in our wake.
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