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 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACKPage 1 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Below you will see an article dealing with the republican governor of Wisconsin and a bill that is nothing more than an attempt by him and other republican governors to eliminate what remains of the unions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110223/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions


MADISON, Wis. – On a prank call that quickly spread across the Internet, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker was duped into discussing his strategy to cripple public employee unions, promising never to give in and joking that he would use a baseball bat in his office to go after political opponents.
Walker believed the caller was a conservative billionaire named David Koch, but it was actually a liberal blogger. The two talked for at least 20 minutes — a conversation in which the governor described several potential ways to pressure Democrats to return to the Statehouse and revealed that his supporters had considered secretly planting people in pro-union protest crowds to stir up trouble.
[Related: Largest labor unions in the U.S.]
The call also revealed Walker's cozy relationship with two billionaire brothers who have poured millions of dollars into conservative political causes, including Walker's campaign last year.
Walker compared his stand to that taken by President Ronald Reagan when he fired the nation's air-traffic controllers during a labor dispute in 1981.
"That was the first crack in the Berlin Wall and led to the fall of the Soviets," Walker said on the recording.
The audio was posted on the Buffalo Beast, a left-leaning website in New York, and quickly went viral.
[Related: What is a right-to-work law?]
Editor Ian Murphy told The Associated Press he carried out the prank to show how candidly Koch would speak with Walker even though, according to Democrats, he refuses to return their calls.
Murphy said he arranged the call Tuesday after speaking with two Walker aides, including his chief of staff. He made the call using Skype and recorded it.
Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie confirmed that it Walker's voice on the call.
The governor said he was ratcheting up the pressure on Senate Democrats to return to the Capitol a week after they fled to block the legislation. He said he supported a move to require them to come to the Capitol to pick up their paychecks rather than have them deposited directly.
[Related: History of stalling tactics in politics]
He also floated an idea to lure Democratic senators back to the Capitol for negotiations and then have the Senate quickly pass the bill while they are in talks.
Walker said aides were reviewing whether the GOP could hold a vote if Democrats were not physically in the Senate chamber but elsewhere in the building.
Democrats seized on Walker's recorded comments as evidence that the governor plans to go beyond budget cuts to crushing unions.
"This isn't about balancing the budget. This is about a political war," Rep. Jon Richards of Milwaukee yelled Wednesday on the floor of the state Assembly.
[Related: First person: Wis. budget bill threatens my family]
The governor's plan would strip most public employees of their collective bargaining rights and force them to pay more for their health care and retirement benefits. Unions could not collect mandatory dues and would face a vote of its members every year to stay in existence.
The proposal has set off more than a week of protests at the Capitol.
The GOP-controlled state Assembly began debating the bill Tuesday and was still hearing dozens of Democratic amendments nearly 24 hours later before taking a break. Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald said he expected to take a vote on the bill by the end of the day.
On the call, Walker said he expected the anti-union movement to spread across the country and he had spoken with the governors of Ohio and Nevada. The man pretending to be Koch seemed to agree, telling Walker, "You're the first domino."
"Yep, this is our moment," Walker responded.
The remarks showed Walker's private relationship with David Koch. He and his brother, Charles, own Koch Industries Inc., which is the largest privately-owned company in America and has significant operations in Wisconsin.
Its political action committee gave $43,000 to Walker's campaign, and David Koch gave $1 million to the Republican Governors' Association, which funded ads attacking Walker's opponent in last year's election.
[Related: Comparison of state anti-union bills]
The Kochs also give millions to support Americans For Prosperity, a conservative business group that launched a $320,000 television ad campaign in favor of Walker's legislation Wednesday.
On the recording, after Walker said he would be willing to meet with Democratic leaders, the caller said he should bring a baseball bat to negotiations.
Walker laughed and responded that he had "a slugger with my name on it."
The caller suggested he was thinking about "planting some troublemakers" among the protesters, and Walker said his administration had thought about doing that, too, but decided against it. Walker said the protests eventually would die because the media would stop covering them.
At the end of the call, the prankster says: "I'll tell you what Scott, once you crush these **stards, I'll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time."
"All right, that would be outstanding," Walker replies, adding that the standoff is "all about getting our freedoms back"
The caller: "Absolutely. And you know, we have a little bit of vested interest as well" and laughs.
Werwie, the governor's spokesman, said the phone call "shows that the governor says the same thing in private as he does in public and the lengths that others will go to disrupt the civil debate Wisconsin is having."
Walker's budget bill also allows his administration to sell power plants that heat and cool state buildings to private companies without any bids.
Critics have seized on this provision, saying they are convinced the Koch brothers' business interests would be able to buy power plants on the cheap, and then profit by running them and driving up the price of energy.
Koch Industries has denied any interest in buying the plants, and Walker's administration argues the private sector, not state government, should run the facilities. Republicans tried to privatize Wisconsin's power plants in 2005, but the plan was vetoed by Gov. Jim Doyle.
Immediately after taking office, Walker also pushed for legislation that would limit damage awards in lawsuits against many businesses.
Koch Industries lobbied for the bill, and Walker signed it into law last month. Walker is also pushing for another Koch Industries-backed bill to weaken state regulations by giving him the power to approve all rules proposed by agencies, a proposal that is moving quickly through the Legislature.
Koch Industries recently opened a lobbying office in downtown Madison a block from the Capitol. Seven lobbyists have registered in Wisconsin to lobby for various Koch Industries companies.
Even before recordings of the call surfaced, the government watchdog group Common Cause in Wisconsin released a statement saying Walker's agenda matched with that of Koch Industries.
"Koch Industries and other corporate citizens have legitimate interests in Wisconsin, but their demonstrated willingness to push large amounts of money into state politics has given them a dangerously outsized voice," said Bob Edgar, the group's national president. That voice, he said, is "now demanding a return on its investments."
___
Associated Press writer Scott Bauer contributed to this report.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 2
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 2:36:40 PM
I suppose unions can be good but I have grown to despise them.

While I was struggling to keep a roof over my head, the auto unions (among others) were draining the American automobile consumer dry ... arranging for paying their employees outrageous wages and retirements ... and of course then charging outrageous sums of money for cars that weren't worth crap ... laughing all the way to the bank.

With my education, I used to work 12 - 14 hours a day just to keep my head above water while my (barely high-school educated) neighbors went to work for GM 7 hours a day and had money to burn with a new car every other year and are now happily retired living the high life ... because their union arranged for them to earn outrageous wages.

I sat back the other night and saw highlighted on a TV show the (so-called) plight of a married couple (both teachers) who have a combined income of over $100,000 and how the situation in Wisconsin is going to affect them. They were crying about perhaps having to pay more into their retirement and more into their health insurance (among other things).

I have a difficult time feeling sorry for such folks. Each earns well over $50,000 a year and me with my meager $24,000 ... I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? Alone just my health insurance premiums take up one whole week's pay! My rent takes up still another week's pay. My other expenses such as utilities and auto and home insurance eats up still another week's pay and I still have not bought myself any gasoline or food.

I have no money left to pay into retirement and never have any money to have a vacation other than sitting in my backyard in a lawn chair with my feet dangling in the kiddie swimming pool I bought 30 years ago for my children.

Sorry ... I have a difficult time coming up with too awfully much sympathy for people who retire on PERS insurance and we still have all these people out here (me included) who will have no insurance at all.

There are any other number of issues I have with all the unnecessary perks those people are going to have to give up.

So what are they really going to lose?

Can someone break it down in a truthful way?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 3
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 3:43:51 PM
First no one forced management to agree to a contract, you can blame the union worker if you want to but management has to agree to the contract, if they did not want to they were free to say no.

I might be wrong but are you not a nurse? If you make 20 per hour you have a base of approxiamately 41,000. At 24,000 per year you are making 12.50 per hour. So maybe I was wrong maybe you are not a nurse, maybe you do not think your time and ability is worth more then 12.50 per hour, maybe if you worked in a profession where you were represented by a union your wage and living conditions would be better.

I was watching the news today and saw where they were going to pay a basketball player 63 million dollars for a three year contract and you are upset because a teacher makes 50,000 a year, teachers they are the people who teach our children. The top 400 people in our country have a combined income that is equal to the bottom 100,000,000 people and you have a problem with a teacher who makes 50,000 a year?

I worked in management and also as a union member so I got a real good look at what goes on, the men/women that worked for me made 20.00 per hour, spent 4 years in trade school they were union, and they were good at what they did, they earned thier pay check. Management for the most part spent to much time looking for ways to cut jobs and not nearly enough time looking for ways to improve quality and productivity

Unions are why you have a 40 hour work week, unions are why we have workers rights and descent working conditions and can make a wage that a family can live on. Do you think that what you do is worth more then 12.50 an hour?


Base Salary
•According to The PayScale Report as of May 2010, registered nurses average an hourly rate of $22.10 to $30.85, with overtime at $30.72 to $45.82. With annual bonuses of $233.61 to $1,904 and profit sharing of $312.70 to $2,037, total yearly compensation can reach $47,070 to $67,319.
Experience
•An increase in experience means an increase in pay, with new RNs earning $19.56 to $25.11 an hour. With one to four years of experience, they make $20.91 to $27.42, while at five to nine years, they receive $23.84 to $31.59. Finally, at 10 to 19 years, they get $25.53 to $34.04, and at 20 or more years, they are paid $26.59 to $35.62.

Read more: The Average RN Hourly Wage | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6555837_average-rn-hourly-wage.html#ixzz1EpHvHov2


This country is not in trouble because of unions this country is in trouble because most of the people who make up the workforce do not have unions representing them, In 1981 35% of the workforce was unionized today only 7% of the workforce is unionized. This country is not in trouble because the people are organized and represented this country is in trouble because we have become so divided that we no longer work for the common good
 wisguyingb
Joined: 1/5/2008
Msg: 4
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:21:38 PM
The Dems tried to squeeze a deal through while they controlled Wisconsin in late 2010. They failed when key Dems switched sides. Wonder is MSLSD will tell you that?...

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/article/20101216/WDH0101/101216015/Decker-stripped-of-leadership-after-he-votes-against-party-worker-contracts

MADISON — Stunned Democrats stripped Senate Majority Leader Russ Decker, D-Wausau of his leadership position after he abruptly turned on them and voted against new contracts for state workers
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 5
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 6:22:30 PM


I have a difficult time feeling sorry for such folks. Each earns well over $50,000 a year and me with my meager $24,000 ... I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? Alone just my health insurance premiums take up one whole week's pay! My rent takes up still another week's pay. My other expenses such as utilities and auto and home insurance eats up still another week's pay and I still have not bought myself any gasoline or food.

I have no money left to pay into retirement and never have any money to have a vacation other than sitting in my backyard in a lawn chair with my feet dangling in the kiddie swimming pool I bought 30 years ago for my children.
I might be wrong but are you not a nurse?
Yes I am a "home health" nurse. I do not get paid by the hour and I do not work in a hospital or facility ... I work in the patient' s home and must travel from each patient to the next.

If you make 20 per hour you have a base of approxiamately 41,000.
I do not get paid by the hour and if I did it would not be what you are quoting.

At 24,000 per year you are making 12.50 per hour.
According to people who have worked all their lives based on perhaps 40 hours per week? Just remember, the whole world doesn't get to just jump in a form a transportation and clock in and out and go home and put their feet up ... okay?

So maybe I was wrong maybe you are not a nurse
No, you are right ... I am a nurse, but just not in the way most people are programmed to think about a "nurse".

Base Salary
•According to The PayScale Report as of May 2010, registered nurses average an hourly rate of $22.10 to $30.85, with overtime at $30.72 to $45.82. With annual bonuses of $233.61 to $1,904 and profit sharing of $312.70 to $2,037, total yearly compensation can reach $47,070 to $67,319.
Experience
•An increase in experience means an increase in pay, with new RNs earning $19.56 to $25.11 an hour. With one to four years of experience, they make $20.91 to $27.42, while at five to nine years, they receive $23.84 to $31.59. Finally, at 10 to 19 years, they get $25.53 to $34.04, and at 20 or more years, they are paid $26.59 to $35.62.

Read more: The Average RN Hourly Wage | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6555837_average-rn-hourly-wage.html#ixzz1EpHvHov2


Let's break that down for the real world ... shall we? (You know, for a "real nurse") ...
... registered nurses average an hourly rate of $22.10 to $30.85, with overtime at $30.72 to $45.82.
I am not an RN (registered nurse). There are many different types of nurses and they are all paid in many different ways ... so that pay scale quoted above ... does not apply to me.

With annual bonuses of $233.61 to $1,904 ...
Many places like to boast of paying out annual bonuses ... but in reality, they set all kinds of stumbling blocks in your path to trip you up to keep you from actually qualifying for the bonus. In my case ... there is no such offering on the table ... I work for a home health agency and must consider myself lucky if I refer another nurse to the agency and actually collect the little $50.00 finders bonus they offer ... if the referral stays over a year.

Experience
•An increase in experience means an increase in pay, with new RNs earning $19.56 to $25.11 an hour. With one to four years of experience, they make $20.91 to $27.42, while at five to nine years, they receive $23.84 to $31.59. Finally, at 10 to 19 years, they get $25.53 to $34.04, and at 20 or more years, they are paid $26.59 to $35.62.
I have no idea what kind of Utopic place this person found this information, but I can tell you that in my family alone, there are 5 of us nurses ... ranging from LPN to Masters degree RN and none of that is anywhere close to reality. Doesn't matter to me because it all means nothing if the town you live in isn't hiring ... eh?

Keeping in mind that my first line of my post said nothing "bad" about unions ...
I suppose unions can be good but I have grown to despise them.

... can we now get back to my questions ...
So what are they really going to lose?

Can someone break it down in a truthful way?

So when I asked that ... it appears that what I was really asking for was a boat load of attitude from the OP and judgment on my choice of work ... right?

Just by the way ... I was not working as a nurse when I spoke of the over-paid uneducated neighbors earning "union" salaries that at that time were entirely out of this world.

And I personally have nothing against teachers earning what they earn ... they just need to quit whining about it as if they are living with one damn foot in the poor house ... okay?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 6
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 9:00:29 PM

Ive never been a fan of Unions, There is a fundamental problem with labor unions that cannot be ignored: a person can't answer to two masters; somebody has to be in charge.


Two masters?


While unions have done a lot of good and have helped workers avoid exploitation in the past,Fast forward today and you see that they also seem to have helped workers exploit employers. Perhaps it has been a gradual shift over time, with unions slowly accumulating more and more power.


If your the employer and you allow your employees to dictate the terms of their contract who is to blame? Quit passing the buck this is not the blame game, your the employer


As a business owner I believe Unions of today are evil and like kryptonite to Superman , Unions can kill a companies ability to make profit.


As an American worker I know I can't live on the 75 cents an hour they pay a worker in China. I don't know what type of business you have but if it can be shipped overseas you won't be in business long.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 7
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 9:05:48 PM

So when I asked that ... it appears that what I was really asking for was a boat load of attitude from the OP and judgment on my choice of work ... right?


A boat load of attitude, show me? I judged your chosen occupation, show me?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 8
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 9:27:58 PM

With the flood gates open, US manufacturing jobs flowed out faster than an indonesian tsunami!!!..............the end result is that a person would be hard pressed to find an appliance, device, toy, tool,TV made in the USA.....owners could have the same product made off-shore with far less overhead, and far-less hassle than in a union run plant in the USA.......we've seen a good example of that in the auto industry.

The flood gates were opened alright, when companies moved overseas and started paying 75 cents an hour and then shipping that product back to the USA. You can cry it's the unions but the truth is it's foreign made goods, if you think different try raising your family on the average salaries of workers in China or India.




having to call a plumber to fix a leaky fawcet, cost me $250.oo service charge alone!!!....


Who forced you to call a plumber? If you did you called because you did not have the skills needed or you were to lazy to fix it yourself, A plumber and incidently most of them that do residental work are not union. A union plumber has to go through 4 years of training and then if he/she wants to go into business for his/herself they have to apply for and pass a test to be licensed and then pay for insurance

When your dream of driving the remaining 7% of the unions out comes true, maybe then you will look back and appreciate what the unions meant to the american worker

http://money.howstuffworks.com/labor-union.htm/printable


In the 19th century, the Industrial Revolution produced a rapid expansion in factories and manufacturing capabilities. As workers moved away from agricultural work to factories, mines and other hard labor, many faced terrible working conditions: long hours, low pay and health risks. Many children worked in factories, and women and children generally received lower pay than men. The government did little to limit these injustices, and in the United States, along with much of the industrialized world, labor movements developed that lobbied for better rights and safer conditions.
 Hozo
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 9
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 10:15:00 PM

With the flood gates open, US manufacturing jobs flowed out faster than an indonesian tsunami!!!..............the end result is that a person would be hard pressed to find an appliance, device, toy, tool,TV made in the USA.....owners could have the same product made off-shore with far less overhead, and far-less
hassle than in a union run plant in the USA.......we've seen a good example of that in the auto industry.


Even paying minimum wage and slashing all benefits to those union workers, it is STILL cheaper to farm out labour and product overseas. The Chinese work for $5-$10 a day. That is why everything is made in China - union, or not.

I have personal experience about the role of unions in the demise and relocation of plants or factories.

I was a union steelworker for 27 years until the plant shut down in 2004. Yes, we got a great wage and great benefits, but that was due to the historically time-honoured profit margin of steel in its boom years. It was nothing for them to throw 3 % of profits our way in the form of pay raises & benefit perks. The amount of profit made then was obscene.

As foreign competitors gained market share in the US(in Canada too) in the 70s,profits fell and losses were absorbed, all the while downsizing and cutting costs accordingly to stay afloat and profitable. We took paycut after paycut; erosion of benefits, and downsizing/layoffs.

Even after all that in the 90s, the industry still was losing more money than ever before. In 1976 when I was hired there were 12,000 high paid workers at my plant. In 2003, there were less than 2,000 lower paid workers, but the industry still racked up millions in losses despite the massive manpower cuts.

The most telling sign I remember was at a rank and file meeting with the company president a year or so before it shut down. He spelled out to us that, due to foreign governments subsidising their own steel industries and taking advantage of exporting to our free market whilst protecting their home industry by restricting importing into their country, it was posible to buy a tonne of finished steel from overseas cheaper than we were able to buy just the iron ore to make that same tonne of steel, not counting adding all the other manfacturing costs to the process. Foreign steel was being subsidized and dumped in the U.S. cheaper than those countries could make it, in order to keep their factories running, whilst at the same time destroying ours.

In other words, EVEN IF WE HAD ALL WORKED FOR FREE, we could not make steel cheaper than the subsidised foreign imports. There was nothing we could do. It had nothing to do with unions at all. It has more to do with trade policies, the value of the dollar vs. foreign economies, and our costly government-mandated environmental / safety regulations(which China is mostly free of) than being a union member, or what party you belong to.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 10
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 8:19:26 AM

So what are they really going to lose?

Can someone break it down in a truthful way?



So when I asked that ... it appears that what I was really asking for was a boat load of attitude from the OP and judgment on my choice of work ... right?

A boat load of attitude, show me? I judged your chosen occupation, show me?
If you can't go back and read the posts and see the "attitude" you displayed in your post, then trying to explain it here will not help.

By the way ... you still never bothered to give any kind of detailed information on just what those teachers and other "union" workers are going to lose if the Wisconsin governor has his way.

How about instead of criticizing those of us who really aren't fond of unions, you tell us in a truthful way what is so bad about this?

What? Are the teachers going to lose their PERS benefits? Are they now going to have to start paying like the rest of us for our health benefits? If so, what's wrong with that? They are making big bucks ... and can afford it much more so than a lot of my co-workers who are not earning any more than I earn.

Are they now going to have to start paying into some sort of IRA like the rest of us if they want a retirement? Are they now going to have to start putting away some of that great income instead of spend it on luxury items?

What is it that you want from us "have nots"? You want us to feel sorry for them that they now can't go out to eat 5 days a week and have to cut it back to 2 days a week? You want us to feel sorry for them that they might have to trade in the gas-guzzling SUV or mini-van for an economy car like most of us "have nots" have to drive?

What? Tell us what you want us to know!!!

Don't just sit there and criticize us for not feeling too awfully sorry that those people might cease to get jacked up incomes and benefits that most others aren't getting.

Maybe their gravy boat is gonna have to be put in dry dock ... eh?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 11
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 8:56:20 AM

Unions played an important part in addressing working conditions and pay etc. initially, now they have outlived their usefulness and only serve to drive up the cost of doing business in America.


When the republcans and tea baggers have accomplished their goal of eliminating the remaining 7% of unionized workers you may rethink your statement above, remember it was not the business owners that said we have to provide safe working conditions, we can't work an employee indefinitely without a break, we can't employ children, we have to provide an employeee with a descent wage living wage


The sole purpose of Unions now is self preservation..we have Laws that insure that working conditions are acceptable, that there is no discrimination in the work place, and that Employees are paid for all of the hours that they work.


All things that you take for granted that were won by unionized workers.Laws can be repealed when the carpetbaggers excuse me republican and tea baggers take control we will see how long it takes before they start to change the rules


Of course those in Unions are for Unions, who wouldn't want to be paid 20 plus an hour for a job that can be done by someone getting paid 12 per hour?......In Indiana all of the factories and distribution centers that are Unionized hire from temporary agencies ...the agencies are paid more per hour than the employees receives but it shows that the Jobs that Union (skilled?) employees can do can be done by non union minimally trained employees who are willing to work for much less than Union employees.


Lets see I am a skilled craftsman I went to school at night for 4 years and worked in the crafts with a master craftsmen, you have no idea of what it takes to become a master craftsperson, I worked as a carpenter and millwright,

http://www.ehow.com/how_4866148_become-carpenters-apprentice.html

It's apparent that you have little to no knowledge of what being a skilled craftsmen requires.

I don't minimize the skills of any working person, can you drive a fork lift? a truck. Like I told another poster if you can fix a leaking faucet have at it but a plumber does every thing from the print to the finished product, if you can build a hip roof or lay out and build stairs have at it, if you can rewire your house or install a new service have at it, if you can change the brakes on your car or install a new water pump have it.

$200.00 dollars to fix your leaking faucet, you only know what you want to see. That plumber has to have the materials to do the repairs, they have to travel from their shop to your home, there are insurance requirements, licensing requirements, fleet maintenance, book keeping and if the contractor wants to stay in business he/she has to make competitive bids.

I have seen the pay scale for the people working in warehouses the normal range in NJ is $7 to $10 dollars an hour is that to much to pay for a persons skills, labor and time?

When the unions are gone the organized oppostion that exercises some control over the employer who has only one thing in mind $$$$$$$$$$$$

If we ever become competitve in the global market place our wages and any thing that contributes to the cost of the product will have to be equal to the countries we are competing with, how well will you and your children be able to survive on 75 cents per hour?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 12
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 9:40:37 AM

If you can't go back and read the posts and see the "attitude" you displayed in your post, then trying to explain it here will not help.


Again if you can point out any thing I said that underminded what you do for a living, quote it for me. If I had some attitude that you found offensive quote it for me.


By the way ... you still never bothered to give any kind of detailed information on just what those teachers and other "union" workers are going to lose if the Wisconsin governor has his way.

How about instead of criticizing those of us who really aren't fond of unions, you tell us in a truthful way what is so bad about this?


Collective bargaining will be the immediate lost to the unionized workers


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, collective bargaining is a:
Method whereby representatives of employees (unions) and employers negotiate the conditions of employment, normally resulting in a written contract setting forth the wages, hours, and other conditions to be observed for a stipulated period (e.g., 3 years). The term also applies to union-management dealings during the term of the agreement.


You may think that what happens here won't effect your ability to earn a living but you are wrong, your employer must now offer a competitive wage to keep you as an employee, if you can go to another employer and make more money for your skillset then you will probably change employers, do you want some one elses salary reduced? Are you being paid what you are worth? If not why? Who negoiates your wages or your other benefits?

On the surface this is about collective bargaining but what it is really about is destroying the democratic parties organized support base
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 13
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UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 11:30:06 AM

Ive never been a fan of Unions, There is a fundamental problem with labor unions that cannot be ignored: a person can't answer to two masters; somebody has to be in charge.


Two masters? Are you some bodies master? The first time you used that terminology with me would be the last time, you don't own the people who work for you, you are exactly why workers need unions


While unions have done a lot of good and have helped workers avoid exploitation in the past,Fast forward today and you see that they also seem to have helped workers exploit employers. Perhaps it has been a gradual shift over time, with unions slowly accumulating more and more power.


Do you consider reading as one of your skills? Just wondering since only 7% of the work force is now union as I said in an earlier entry


As a business owner I believe Unions of today are evil and like kryptonite to Superman , Unions can kill a companies ability to make profit.


Again I can understand why you dislike unions, you want to be the master not the employer.What amazes me is that you are still in business
 wisguyingb
Joined: 1/5/2008
Msg: 14
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 1:06:52 PM
Yup, it's all the republican's fault up for what's going on up here in wisconsin. EarlzP you ought to google the name Russ Decker.

State Sen. Russ Decker's swan song was a surprise. The former Senate majority leader -- he was dumped by fellow Democrats Wednesday -- turned his back on his colleagues, his party, his caucus, and the working men and women he has always pretended to represent.

His vote killed 17 contracts with state workers, negotiated during the last 18 months.

Decker wasn't the only Democrat to vote no. Jeff Plale did, too, but Plale at least had said in advance what he would do. Decker blindsided everyone


What makes his behavior doubly surprising and reprehensible is that before his election to the Senate, Decker was a journeyman bricklayer, business manager (in other words, full time union staffer) for his local, and is still a member of the Brticklayers International Union, according to his official bio.

Whatever his motives, this was not a vote on the merits.

Decker ends his legislative career in shame.

http://uppitywis.org/blogarticle/russ-decker-whore-or-extortionist-you-decide
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 15
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 1:39:06 PM

Do you see it as once the current incarnation of unions passes that nothing like it could ever occur in any shape or form to address problems that arise?


This is the future I see, there will be the very rich and then the poor, BTW which category do you see yourself in? Me? I am fine retired drawing two pensions and SS, My daughter is a doctor, I have one grandson maybe he will follow his mother, but my guess is he will be fine.

Do I think the union organizers were hero's, no I know they were, because of the sacrifices they made I was able to earn a good living as a skilled craftsman.

This is what I see American workers earning 75 cents to 2.00 per hour living in homes they rent from the wealthiest 1% of our population, I see a once economically thriving country become a 3rd world economy.


Do you see anything similar to the health care issue? Where 90% are just fine, but it's not good enough, so everyone has to change for that last 10%?


You are very short sighted if you think that 90% are just fine and are going to stay that way, I predict that more and more people will be priced out of health insurance and people just like you are responsible for it.If you don't think it is going to touch you give it ten years and see if that number has grown to 30%
 Hozo
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 16
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 1:44:57 PM

Please tell me where it is written that an employer is responsible for providing you with health care. That's the problem most people have with union workers, most of you are like spoiled children that think something is "owed" to you.


It may not apply to all, but in my case, industry provides healthcare to its employees because of the hazardous work environment and high injury rate.

Physically demanding jobs in many manufacturing sectors cause injury of skilled workers and lost time accidents, which affects production. . Healthy employees are paramount to smooth operations of these types of business.

That is another reason perhaps for higher wages in these types of jobs - a sort of hazardous duty pay. I am sure that anybody with a degree in a cushy office job would not do dangerous industrial work for minimum wage and no benefits.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 17
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 2:38:37 PM

Two masters? Are you some bodies master? The first time you used that terminology with me would be the last time, you don't own the people who work for you, you are exactly why workers need unions



I'm not sure whats got your Sunday school nose bent out of shape? and you wonder why we have problems, you have no idea what im talking about? good Lord.


I have no doubt that I was right on target with you the more you write the clearer it becomes, you think you walk on water and as I stated it is employers just like you that are why we need unions


Do you consider reading as one of your skills? Just wondering since only 7% of the work force is now union as I said in an earlier entry



you really dont want to go down the road with me bub..... you appear like a Monday morning armchair psychoanalyst trying to tell others what they are supposedly thinking in spite of what was actually said.


I just repeated what you said,correct me if I am wrong did you not use the word "master" to describe your position or the owners of company, that is the way it was before unions organized. You continue showing just why unions had to organize you go from "master" to "bub"


Again I can understand why you dislike unions, you want to be the master not the employer.What amazes me is that you are still in business



You know nothing about me pops, This is the kind of rhetoric I would expect from the likes of you,your post appears to me as nothing more than a slow drip of psychobabble slathered over top of an excuse like strawberry frosting on cow droppings. The first bite may be sweet, but the rest of it is pure sh!t


The more you type the more confident I am that the unions are really needed


Second I dont treat my employees like crap, I dont know where you've been hanging out, but people who works for me enjoys a good living.


I guess I will just have to take your word for it unless maybe you want to take an informal survey from your employees to see what they really think, the question is would you care? That's why we need unions, with unions we don't have to wait and beg for wages or feel intimidated by those with a master complex


Third thing Mr Socialist , stop being so bitter because others chose the American dream and you have to work for a living.


I lived the american dream, chose what I wanted to do and enjoyed doing it.I earned a good living and deserved every penny I ever made. My daughter is a doctor, my grandson will be able to attend college or pursue a career that he wants, I am retired drawing two pensions and SS, I worked as a mechanical engineer for a large international chemical company and as a union craftman and never had a "master" complex.

I am not concerned for myself or mine I had and they have the most important thing in life, "Opportunity"

Did you notice how I got through this without reverting to name calling? Pretty good, EH
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 18
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 3:47:45 PM

Just my 2 cents ….

As noted unions only make up 7% of the workforce and I’d say the reason is that people have figured out all the union label means now days is “it costs too much”

I worked in the Aviation industry for years and never saw a single thing union related that was good for the company or the consumer, just a couple …..

The company I worked for did emergency 24 hour repairs anywhere in the country, along with standard FBO (Fixed Base Operations) services, so while most of the time we worked in and around the airports and hangers in the DFW area we would go anywhere for a price.

One year three of us were sent from Dallas, Texas to Ypsilanti, Michigan, you might ask why ? Well it seems it was “too cold outside” imagine that, it’s cold outside in Michigan in the winter, I guess it was too cold for the poor union boys to work on the airplane, which had been grounded by an FAA inspector due to a fuel leak. Yes, according to the Union, the plane had to be inside before they could touch it because it was too cold outside. Unfortunately for DHL the airport in Ypsilanti did not have a hanger big enough to hold a 727, so the options were, leave it there till spring and or it warmed up enough, or fill out all the paperwork, jump through all the hoops the FAA requires & pay all the fees and fines that come with transporting an aircraft somewhere for maintenance. Or send three guys from a “Right to Work State” to get er done! LOL
So how much do you think it cost to send the three of us from Texas to Michigan, get us each a hotel room, a rental car for two days, and pay for all our food and drink for two days, for what was less than two hours work ???

(Look for the Union Label)

The next time I questioned the sanity of unions, an airplane had arrived for a major check, called a C or a D check, these are major checks in that you essentially take the airplane apart, look at all the pieces then put it back together again replacing anything that is worn or broken.
Well two of the engines were up for their own checks and they were looking for volunteers to work overtime to get the engines off and sent to the engine shop so they could be inspected.
Silly me, I had no idea, so I asked, So why don’t the engine shop guys come down and get one of the engines while we get the other, that way they would only need one crew to work overtime instead of two, I was laughed at, it seems I had no idea how things worked in a union shop. I found out those old men in the engine shop, well they had seniority, and that meant they would sit on their ass’s and play cards and drink coffee until we brought them an engine to work on, they were not about to come get it.
How much do you think ten guys on overtime pulling engines cost the company so that eight old union guys could sit on their ass’s & play cards & drink coffee in their little shop.

(Look for the Union Label)

I saw the same thing over and over, the avionics shop, the hydraulics shop, same as the engine shop, old union guys bid for these shops so they can retire before they actually retire.

How do these folks develop such an entitlement mentality that they feel it is acceptable to sit around and play cards while others are being paid overtime to get the job they aren’t doing done.
WTF ??? Do they not understand that no company can afford to do that indefinitely ?


And if you ever get to watch a fight between two unions over who gets to represent a group of workers and aren’t disgusted by the things you see, well you then weren’t paying attention.


I have no way of knowing whether what you say is or isn't factual so I will just assume that it is. Management is responsible to supervise and see to it that the work is completed in the most effective way possible, if union workers were sitting around than management dropped the ball. I managed a maintenance department my craftsmen/women were great they came to work anticipating that they would be working and they did, it was up to me to utilize my crew effectively, if a person was not working I was responsible I did not pass the buck and blame others for my inability to effectively utilize the people that worked in my area.

I think people kind of miss the point that management agrees to a contract, if a union person is not producing according to the contract then management has the right and responsibility to correct the problem.
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 19
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 6:46:27 PM
Unlike what the title of this thread, I don't think that this situation is an attack on the Unions, but rather an attack on the middle and poor class. It only appears to be an attack on the unions due to mainstream media publicity and spin.

Notice that nothing in the actual bill itself reduces pay for state senators and congressman. If anything, that is the FIRST place for budget cuts to be made. Instead, Gov. Walker thinks that passing such a subversive bill (which is intended at taking away collective bargaining rights and the right to unionize) will balance a budget.

AGAIN FOR REITERATION....

This REALLY wasn't about balancing budgets...or even busting unions and striping collective bargaining rights. Instead, this was mainly an attack on the middle and poor classes in Wisconsin. Otherwise, the Governer, along with state senators and congressman, would've cut their pay first.

It's called leading by example folks...don't let your "elected leaders" hold you to a commitment or make a sacrifice that even THEY WOULDN'T MAKE THEMSELVES!!


If y'all read the following document, you'll notice that the unions were NOT the cause of the budget shortfall. The shortfall was actually caused by 3 specific initiatives implemented by Gov. Walker. Source is from Wisconsin's Legislative Fiscal Bureau (which is the equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office).

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf


As for those that feel that unions and collective bargaining have no place in today's society, I strongly disagree with you. This is a PERFECT example of why collective bargain and unions ARE needed. Working class people need protections from egregious abuses by their employers, whether the employer is private or public sector.

Also, what do y'all (as in EVERYONE reading this thread) think about the 14 Democrat senators leaving the state to prevent the quorum needed to pass this bill? I think it's a tactic worthy of well-deserved respect and recognition. IMO, it's the equivalent of what the Republicans did on the healthcare reform issue and judicial appointments.
 Hozo
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 20
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 6:57:18 PM

Hozo, mind me asking what industry you are in?


I worked at a now-defunct fully integrated steel plant near Pittsburgh, Pa. I posted info on this in post #13 on page #1



How much do you think ten guys on overtime pulling engines cost the company so that eight old union guys could sit on their ass’s & play cards & drink coffee in their little shop.


This was also similar to the environment where I worked. Union operators, craftsmen, & others practised these same practices. Everybody of rank had a specific job they would do - and nothing more.

On the other hand, salary exempt management also did the exact same thing - none of them would budge or contribute any more than absolutely necessary and would take advantage of any opportunity to "sit on their ass’s & play cards & drink coffee in their little offices".

They would fudger numbers, skew figures, take unwarranted credit, manufacture imaginary "meetings" at restaurants, take daily extra long "lunch hours"(translation: a 2 hour nap), and farm out unwarranted blame to protect their own cushy lair.

The corruption of salary exempt was so rampant that non-exempt employees negotiated and ended up joining the union.



How do these folks develop such an entitlement mentality that they feel it is acceptable to sit around and play cards while others are being paid overtime to get the job they aren’t doing done.

In the end, 80% of the union workforce was downsized. The remaining 20% of us took pay and benefit cuts. In spite of that, it didnt stop the company from hemmoraging millions in losses every quarter. We were not to blame. But management had no idea how to turn a profit other than the ever-popular downsizing of the workforce.

Because of that, the shortage of manpower made it necessary to work the remaining employees on extensive premium overtime and contract out many jobs. These contracts were awarded to companies who charged $500 per day for a person to perform the specific duty needed. The sad part of this is the former union employee whose job was eliminated was paid about half that amount in wages and benefits compensation per day. There was no cost savings by reducing the union position and contracting out his duties. In the end, the dollar losses per quarter were no different than before any downsizing of the workforce took place.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 21
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History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 8:52:17 PM

When/if the last 7% lose their power...do you see it as all of a sudden the world ending or something? Or the next day some sort of corporate Darth Vader is going to come out and say "Ah ha! They fell for my plan, now true change can begin, you are all in my power! All those laws that passed, ha ha ha, I had my fingers crossed so they don't matter anymore. Bring in the sweat shops!"


This is what you will see


http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/sweatshops.html

U.S. Companies With Ties to Sweatshops
Many corporations use contract manufacturing firms to produce their goods. They separate themselves from the production of their goods and refuse to take responsibility for the conditions under which they are made. However, these companies actually dictate the labor standards of their suppliers. Corporations demand extremely low prices for merchandise. As a result, manufacturers, concerned with making a profit, cut employees' wages and compromise their safety. Foreign governments accomodate corporations, as well, by setting the minimum wage well below what is needed to meet basic needs, in order to boost national economic gain (Given, 1997). American companies get away with these type of business practices because the U.S. Labor Department requires only internal monitoring. Thus, there is no way to determine whether or not companies are honest about the conditions that they find. Unfortunately, even if violations of human rights are discovered, corporations are only held to negligible fines.
Many U.S. retailers have ties to sweatshops, which are usually foreign owned and operated. Nike moved production out of the U.S. to Taiwan and South Korea when workers demanded better wages. When democracy took hold in these regions, Nike moved production to Indonesia, Vietnam, and China (Given, 1997). Nike's Indonesian factories commit numerous violations of human rights and health and safety standards. Workers are paid only $2.00 per day. They are forced to work with toxic glues and chemicals without adequate training, masks, and gloves (Morey, 2000). Nike agrees to pay employees' medical bills only after they have been paid in full by the workers who can't afford to do so. Fear is a common tactic to keep workers in line. Many are afraid to ask to use the bathroom, and women who are menstruating have to wear multiple sanitary pads and black clothing to hide blood stains (Morey, 2000). Workers also have to endure verbal abuse, 60-70 hour work weeks, and humiliation. Nike's internal monitoring does very little to help the employees' situation. Monitors fail to discover many problems in the sweatshops because managers know of visits ahead of time and clean up the facilities, and because monitors rarely talk to the workers. Nike also has facilities in Vietnam and China with similar conditions. Nike denied allegations of abuses in its factories for years, but finally in May of 1998 Nike announced its pledge to follow U.S. occupational health and safety standards, end child labor, and allow external monitoring of its facilities (Corporate Watch, 2000). However, recent attacks against workers at a Korean-owned factory in Mexico that makes Nike clothing raises questions about their commitment (Global Exchange, 2001).

Wal-mart also promotes poor working conditions in factories. Facilities in China that produce clothing for the retailer pay their workers as low as $.13 an hour. Unfortunately, it is difficult to discover much about the practices in Wal-mart factories because Wal-mart refuses to disclose the names and locations of their sweatshops (Co-op America, 2001). Thus, neither the U.S. government nor consumers are able to discern how bad the conditions really are. The Gap produces clothing in six factories in Saipan. Although they use "Made in the USA" labels, they refuse to adhere to U.S. labor standards (Global Exchange, 2000). Indentured servitude, physical abuse and threats, and unsafe working conditions are among the violations in Gap factories in Saipan. In Russia, Gap factory workers are paid as little as $.11 per hour, and in Honduras Gap workers are forced to undergo mandatory pregnancy tests, work overtime, do not have access to locked bathrooms, and make $4.00 a day (Global Exchange, 2000). Although Gap claims to follow a "no sweat" code of conduct, it blatantly fails to do so. Disney has a number of suppliers in China who subject their employees to sweatshop conditions. Many of the factories require young women to pay "deposits" upon hire that put them in a situation of indentured servitude. Wages are low, and overtime is required in these factories. Workers do not receive health insurance even though it is required by Chinese law (Hong Kong Christian Industrial Commitee, 1999). Unfortunately, most of the young women who work in Disney's factories are unaware of their rights.
 CallmeKen
Joined: 9/4/2009
Msg: 22
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 9:58:50 PM

Also, what do y'all (as in EVERYONE reading this thread) think about the 14 Democrat senators leaving the state to prevent the quorum needed to pass this bill?

I think it's pathetic. The Democrats, I assume, were elected to do a job. If they're too cowardly to do that job because they might lose at the end of the day, then they should stay away.

If Governor Walker truly wants to cut the budget, I know of 14 paychecks that should be withheld until the senators they are going to return and agree to do the job they were elected to do.


it's the equivalent of what the Republicans did on the healthcare reform issue

Healthcare mandate - not reform. And you're wrong - the Republicans voted against it, but at least they voted. They let the will of the people speak, and at the end of the day lost with pride. These 14 Democrats are nothing but dead weight.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 23
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 4:15:37 AM

Also, what do y'all (as in EVERYONE reading this thread) think about the 14 Democrat senators leaving the state to prevent the quorum needed to pass this bill?


I think it is great and hope that the rest of the country catches on


I think it's pathetic. The Democrats, I assume, were elected to do a job. If they're too cowardly to do that job because they might lose at the end of the day, then they should stay away.


I think we should start impeachment procedures against Walker and the 19 republicans


If Governor Walker truly wants to cut the budget, I know of 14 paychecks that should be withheld until the senators they are going to return and agree to do the job they were elected to do.


I can think of 20 paychecks that should be withheld
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 24
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 9:08:54 AM

This REALLY wasn't about balancing budgets...or even busting unions and striping collective bargaining rights. Instead, this was mainly an attack on the middle and poor classes in Wisconsin. Otherwise, the Governer, along with state senators and congressman, would've cut their pay first.
I find it difficult to consider $50,000. pay per year anything close to middle or poor class. If that's the case, then send me to the damn homeless shelter.

I have never --- EVER --- known any union worker to be considered middle or poor class ... they simply earn too much money to qualify and I just have very little sympathy for that when so many others are out there struggling with nothing.

They have no money left over to invest in any kind of retirement, they have no health benefits, they have no paid days off, they have NOTHING. How are they supposed to feel soooooo sorry for all the "union brats" living the high life?
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 25
view profile
History
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 11:17:42 AM
If unions are the reason for Wisconsin's deficit then why does Texas, a right to work state, who is extremely anti-union, very pro-tax breaks for corporations, and very pro-business running a deficit right now? By the way, my state has the lowest amount of people with health insurance as well. Want medicaid? Forget it here unless you are under 18, pregnant, or one of the qualified disabled.

This is not about unions. This is about keeping the poor and the middle class in their place.......under the bus.


There's One Huge State Budget Crisis That Everyone Is Refusing To Talk About

1/16


#15 Colorado #14 Virginia #13 North Carolina #12 Arizona #11 Oregon #10 Louisiana #9 Connecticut #8 Texas #7 Minnesota #5 South Carolina #4 Mississippi #6 California #3 New Jersey #2 Illinois #1 Nevada Now see why they're all broke...



You know the story and you know the names: states like Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and California are supposed to be in huge financial trouble thanks to bloated governments, business-unfriendly regulations, and strong public sector unions.

After a crisis-free 2010, investors are expected to punish these hotbeds of bad governance in a muni bond market rout, at least if pundits like Meredith Whitney are correct.

But there's one state, which is fairly high up on the list of troubled states that nobody is talking about, and there's a reason for it.

The state is Texas.

This month the state's part-time legislature goes back into session, and the state is starting at potentially a $25 billion deficit on a two-year budget of around $95 billion. That's enormous. And there's not much fat to cut. The whole budget is basically education and healthcare spending. Cutting everything else wouldn't do the trick. And though raising this kind of money would be easy on an economy of $1.2 trillion, the new GOP mega-majority in Congress is firmly against raising any revenue.

So the bi-ennial legislature, which convenes this month, faces some hard cuts. Some in the Texas GDP have advocated dropping Medicaid altogether to save money.

So why haven't we heard more about Texas, one of the most important economy's in America? Well, it's because it doesn't fit the script. It's a pro-business, lean-spending, no-union state. You can't fit it into a nice storyline, so it's ignored.

But if you want to make comparisons between US states and ailing European countries, think of Texas as being like America's Ireland. Ireland was once praised as a model for economic growth: conservatives loved it for its pro-business, anti-tax, low-spending strategy, and hailed it as the way forward for all of Europe. Then it blew up.

This is the sleeper state budget crisis of 2011, and it will be praised for doing great, right up until the moment before it blows up.

(Disclosure: The author went to UT-Austin, and goes back there a few times per year.)
Click here to see the biggest state gaps >

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-state-budget-crisis-2011-1#ixzz1EzDQlVHo


So who is next? I really believe people better start opening their eyes if they do not want to be totally run over that is.
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