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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Disproving the existence of a god      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 2
Disproving the existence of a godPage 1 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
You are correct.

My youngest son "rams down my throat" that God does not exist.
That religion is man made and we should abolish it.
I tell him he has every right to believe in what he wants, however to force his beliefs on others shows immaturity.

Basically your life is your own.
Choose to live it to the best of your ability.
Just as you have control over yourself, others have control over themselves.

Let it go ... live and let live.

btw ... Happy Easter, no matter how you choose to celebrate it.
 bipolarintense
Joined: 4/2/2011
Msg: 3
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 10:17:12 AM
To prove or disprove that any gods exist you would have to apply logic. Logic cannot be applied to anything that is based on faith.

Religion, psychics, faith healing, astrology, the list goes on.

The simple basis for this is -

If you tell people something often enough they will begin to believe it.
 jackfouru
Joined: 9/10/2010
Msg: 4
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 10:35:52 AM

But the issue of god becomes a social problem when people keep putting their god(s) into our laws and schools, so we have to try to educate those theists to keep their god(s) out of our lives. "


Problem is that this is not happening. Nobody tries to put god into my life, and the law does not allow God in public schools. The Courts are clear about that. So don't make more of this issue than it really is. Yours is simply a disingenuous argument. You have to go to a private religious school to have God "put" into your life.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 5
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 11:22:33 AM
That's patently not true.

This is Easter Sunday. Good Friday was also a stat holiday. There are massive initiatives to "balance" biology teaching in schools, not based on science but based on the faith of those who put their religion ahead of science.

The efforts of various loons to put the Ten Commandments in various public places is always a cause celebre. Despite the fact that most of the Commandments have nothing to do with law - drawing pictures isn't illegal anywhere, for example. I think the first four are all about how to worship that particular deity. Adultery is only illegal in Islamic states.

Various religious groups have billboards all over. Celebrities thank god all the time. Yet very bland atheist messages on buses or in a Ricky Gervais bits, prompt outrage all over.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 6
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 11:24:37 AM
Problem is that this is not happening. Nobody tries to put god into my life, and the law does not allow God in public schools. The Courts are clear about that. So don't make more of this issue than it really is. Yours is simply a disingenuous argument. You have to go to a private religious school to have God "put" into your life.

Really?

Florida Republicans throw support behind religion in schools legislation
Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010
By Cristina Silva | The Miami Herald


Republican senators sat aghast Tuesday as Pace High School Principal Frank Lay described the religious ban at his public school in the Florida Panhandle.

"They stopped wearing crosses," he said of the faculty. "They put their Bibles away."

Sen. Stephen Wise, R-Jacksonville, urged action. "We can lose our freedoms in America very fast," he warned.

Beset by tales of sectarian conflict and censored teachers, Republican legislators are behind several efforts to expand religion's role in the education system this legislative session.

Under a measure sponsored by Wise, teachers would be allowed to pray with children, behavior long frowned upon by opponents who say mixing faith and public schools marginalizes minority students.

The legislation passed unanimously Tuesday in the Senate's Education PreK-12 committee, with proponents defending it as a necessary protection of free speech. Versions of the bill (SB1580/HB31) have sailed through other committees in both the Senate and House.

Republican lawmakers are also behind a measure that would repeal the state's century-old ban on funneling public dollars to religious groups. The proposed constitutional amendment could greatly expand Florida's controversial private school voucher program.

www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/04/21/92552/florida-republicans-throw support.html#ixzz1KSwR0RDx


or


Florida Senate Judiciary approves repeal of church state separation
April 13th, 2011 8:55 pm ET
Jennifer Hancock
Tampa Humanism & Freethought Examiner



Yesterday The Senate Judiciary committee approved a bill that would effectively tear down the separation of church and state in Florida. On a party line vote of 5 to 2, the Senate Judiciary Committee approved SRJ 1218 - the Religious Freedom bill and sent it on to the Committee on Children, Families and Elder Affairs. Members of Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) in Florida have mobilized against the passage of this bill and it’s companion H 1471 where it is scheduled for a hearing in the House Judiciary Committee tomorrow.

SJR 1218, which was sponsored by Sen. Thad Altman (R-Melbourne) and endorsed by the entire Republican caucus, would delete a constitutional provision that bars Florida from spending public revenues on sectarian religious organizations. Supporters of the bill claim that prohibiting government from funding religious groups discriminates against religious groups.

Taking the lead for Americans United in Florida are a Baptist minister (Rev. Harry Parrott), a Presbyterian minister (Rev Harold Brockus) and a Rabbi (Rabbi Merrill Shapiro). The three of them sent a letter to Florida legislators on Monday asking them not to tear down the wall separating church and state in Florida.In their letter they state, ““Ending this prohibition on government aid, which has been in place for 126 years, puts our State in the business of religion. And as a consequence, our tax dollars could go to support a religious organization or school with tenets and teachings that contradict our own, and our religious liberty would be violated.”

http://www.examiner.com/humanism-freethought-in-tampa-bay/florida-senate-judiciary-approves-repeal-of-church-state-separation





Yep those Republicans in Fla are all about jobs and so are many others around your country, so before you say there is no problem, you many want to look around as there are others that think there is.
 jackfouru
Joined: 9/10/2010
Msg: 7
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 11:59:48 AM
Politicians always pander to the public, but the courts have already spoken. There is no God foisted on public school students in this country and there won't be, unless the Supreme Court reverses itself, which won't happen anytime soon. But you know, we DO HAVE freedom of religion and Freedom of the Press. Seems to me the Atheists want to deprive Americans of the fundamental right to believe what they want to believe and to publish what they want to publish. What gives anybody the right here to think they should be able to stop a religious group from promoting their own religion? If there is a lot of religious promoting where I live, a large city, I don't even notice it, because I don't pay attention. Atheists are simply too busy trying to interfere with everybody elses business. Pathetic really. I agree when Bush tried to foist his born again garbage on the rest of us, that was wrong. But the guy is a war criminal, what would you expect with somebody of his character?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 8
view profile
History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 2:05:50 PM
"What gives anybody the right here to think they should be able to stop a religious group from promoting their own religion?"

It's not a matter of THAT someone wants to promote their beliefs. It's a matter of HOW they want to do it. As some of our friends above have shown directly, there ARE people who want to use the force of the government itself to HELP them promote their religious beliefs.
I too will always fight against those who want to sneak around, or change the few existing protections we have from these earnest believers, who "only want to help us" by making us pretend to believe as they do.
The common play to have the ten Commandments put onto the governments property in a prominent place is a case in point. These particular people pretend (falsely) that our laws are all based on the biblical laws, and that therefor the T.C.'s should be put there for 'historical' reasons.
If you are one of the believers who thinks that anyone who refuses to HELP you promote your beliefs, is therefore limiting your rights, then I wont bother to argue with you, because you are already way past accepting logic. I will simply continue to stand in your way as best I can, and firmly say, and vote, NO.
 justagrlwithacat
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 9
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 2:35:31 PM
I hate discussing the exists/doesn't exist whole thing. I wouldn't argue it to change someones mind, what do I care what they believe so long as they aren't hurting themselves. More so I just hate it because I find it a real snoozer.
I even minored in philosophy, just avoided the theology stuff. Any phil work involves some initial theological ideas at some point, just not heavy into it.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 10
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 3:10:45 PM
Ironically, the greatest arguments against theism have, for me, come from the believers. The argue themselves into so many circles, the desperation to believe becomes obvious.
 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 11
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 5:26:26 PM
you can't disprove the existence of god without first defining what god is. according to the catholics, god is a gaseous vertebrate of astronomical heft.... fairly easy to disprove or, shall we say, fairly easy to prove as nothing but an allegorical myth. according to the kabbalah, god is a verb. how do you disprove a verb? hmmm. according to the mystery schools all over the world, god is a numinous other that is closer to You than your own breath, so that it is actually the same as You at some level that's only left for You to discover. and if that's true, it would be something that can only be known by direct experience. it's kinda like zen, laughing in the face of simplistic and limited materialistic concepts like proof. does satori need proof? ha, joke's on you. but hey, what do i know.
 BalderDog2
Joined: 1/6/2011
Msg: 12
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 5:37:57 PM

What gives anybody the right here to think they should be able to stop a religious group from promoting their own religion?


I believe within the sun of each solar system lives a God. That God is the God for that solar system and answers to no one except a "bigger" central God who lives in a huge Black Hole somewhere at the center of the Universe. Usually these Sun Gods don't bother with the inhabitants who may have evolved on any of the planets that orbit their particular Sun--the folks that live within the boarders of that solar system are not even aware of the Sun God's existence. The Sun Gods prefer it this way, because if they were to make themselves known, it could cause all kinds of problems.

Sometimes, however, as is the case with our solar system, after being locked up away all alone inside a Sun for millions of eons, the Sun God goes insane. When that happens, they wreak all sorts of havoc on the little inhabitants of the worlds around their Suns by writing books and making commandments and getting people to turn on each other and kill each other as they form little groups and declare they alone know the true nature of the Sun God. Because the Sun God is insane, it doesn't bothered to clarify Its nature to anyone because Its been rather bored lock away in the Sun all those years and now here are all these fighting people to provide It with a bit of amusement.

When the Central God who lives in the Black Hole at the center of the universe finds out about all this--finds out a Sun God went insane--it simply blows up the sun and that solves the problem.

Since there is no way to be disproved any of this, I think if people want creationism taught in schools, my Sun God religion should also be taught.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 13
view profile
History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 6:33:38 PM
Back to the ORIGINAL start of this thread:
Why some people feel the need to try to DISPROVE the existence of a god, and/or why people bother to pretend to debate it, when they are unable or unwilling to actually listen to each other's points and respond to them.

That's a very complicated set of behaviors to address. As to the first (need to disprove), I've seen more than one reason behind the folks whose writings I carefully read, or who I've listened to with equal care:
- Some are resentful of the vast illusion of status or power that believers have in this culture. They perceive this through many films, mentions in TV shows, prayers and speeches by politicians, the vast acreage held by churches, the posturing of tele-evangelists, the complaints of self-proclaimed religio-political groups, sports figure gesticulating, and so forth. The more forcefully that such people proclaim their belief that their faith gives them a leg up, or greater authority than others, the more resentment they garner in these opposing people.

- Some are involved in pursuits or disciplines that are, or can be, actually injured by belief in gods, such as various sciences.

- Some just have a single individual in their past who essentially drove them into hatred of religiousity.

On the other point...why do they tend to seem to be unaware of the fact that they ARE talking in different directions:

I would say that this is a failing on each one's part to have thought the through the fundamentals, either of their own position, or of their opposition. I've observed that most people who argue about ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING, fail to prepare themselves with a study of how to argue logically, and have instead focused all of their energy on how to say something clever and loud, that sounds righteous enough to themselves, that they figure the other side will wilt into a shivering puddle of fear in response. When it fails, they go to plan B, which is usually to defame their opponent, accuse them of other personal failings, suggest that people who they think care about them actually do not, or look for minor discrepancies in their grammar or spelling, in order to claim that they win by default.
 _TALL_IQ2_
Joined: 2/10/2010
Msg: 15
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 7:38:56 PM
IMO those that are most zealous about continual proselytizing their controversial minority values, are usually motivated by their own recent conversion and still deeply embedded uncertainty..

One simple way to solidify in ones own mind new values and beliefs is to repeat them and attempt to convert others..
If many others can be converted, the evangelist may become their "angel" in his own eyes,
and will have seemingly made a difference that matters in this uncertain world... S
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 16
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 7:42:33 PM
Some people see sometimes that the belief in god doesn't serve a positive purpose sometimes
So at times some will attempt to disprove god's existence
Some times the amount of time devoted to this endeavor is ungodly
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 17
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 8:29:16 PM

Since there is no way to be disproved any of this, I think if people want creationism taught in schools, my Sun God religion should also be taught.


Well package that puppy up and sell it to the masses, Balder, I think you're on to something! Hey, it worked for L. Ron Hubbard! And the Catholic church! And the Mormons. And the Muslims. And....
 CallmeKen
Joined: 9/4/2009
Msg: 18
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 9:30:16 PM

The efforts of various loons to put the Ten Commandments in various public places is always a cause celebre.

Yes, how loony for someone to believe that we should not kill, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness against our neighbor! And Darwin's ideals save us, a commandment against coveting our neighbor's belongings? Why, that's just socialist!


Adultery is only illegal in Islamic states.

It is grounds for civil action (ie., divorce) in many US states. You are essentially breaking a licensed contract.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 19
view profile
History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 9:39:00 PM
Those particular rules are found in most cultures, and they are already encoded in law. Don't pretend they're some uniquely Christian concept, especially while conveniently skipping the OTHER commandments which ARE endemic to desert monotheism. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 20
view profile
History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/24/2011 11:28:13 PM
Proving or disproving something I don't believe in is like mental masturbation, I can't prove or disprove something that doesn't exist. Now if someone wants to talk about the whys on both sides, it's as good a debate/discussion as any other topic. But, if one is going to say that something does exist, it's their job to show the proof, not mine.

I use to debate this topic with a co-worker, some days it went on & on, other days we talked about totally different things. It drove his wife nuts, they were both creationists, but he and I, we had a ball and it often got heated. Neither one of us ever convinced the other, and I don't want to convince others to my way of thinking, that's not the point, the point was we enjoy learning from each other and see how how differently we saw things.
 bipolarintense
Joined: 4/2/2011
Msg: 21
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 2:24:15 AM
Fair enough. But the thread isn't about educating theists to keep their god(s) to themselves.

OP your familiar enough with forums that you know an Op’s intent had nothing to do with a person’s viewpoint.


But again, the thread is about the need to disprove the existence of a god, not about determining appropriate forums to display beliefs.

Op don’t you realise your question has already been answered. It appears that mainly those who believe in god feel no need to even participate in this thread while those who would discount that god’s exist feel the need to espouse their viewpoint


It seems odd for each side not to acknowledge that its argument doesn't address the other's points.

Why would they? They are more concerned with pushing their viewpoint and of course this is a subject that has been argued since time immemorial with one difference.

In the past if you didn’t conform to societies beliefs they tended to kill you.

Think about it? How many of our fellow posters would be dead if they had expressed their opinions in the 1400’s.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 22
view profile
History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 5:03:05 AM
"The efforts of various loons to put the Ten Commandments in various public places is always a cause celebre.

Yes, how loony for someone to believe that we should not kill, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness against our neighbor! And Darwin's ideals save us, a commandment against coveting our neighbor's belongings? Why, that's just socialist!"

Ken and Frogo: You entirely miss the point of WHY it isn't okay to put the TC's in a government setting. It has NOTHING to do with their being thought of as BAD IDEAS (don't be ridiculous). It has to do entirely, with the declaration of RELIGIOUS authority over human law. I would not object to a government posting the same list of "don'ts," culled directly from the existing laws of the state, because that would retain legal authority in the hands of the people, and not place it in the hands of unelected religious people.
And why do you think the people pushing for the TC's to be posted want them? It is NOT because they feel that the good ideas therein are being ignored by law, it is entirely because, though they know that these rules are already mostly codified in law, that THEY, as RELIGIOUS people, are not in charge, and they want to be.
Show me a state where murder is legal. Or theft. Or any of the other items on the TC list, save only the entirely RELIGIOUS demands that a certain day be set aside for worship, or that a god be catered to. All of the practical considerations are already prohibited. Unless you want to demand that Judeo-Christianinty be given legal power over everyone, you have no reason to push for the TC's to be put onto the governments' (i.e. all peoples) property.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 24
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History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 8:39:32 AM

The need to try to disprove the existence of a god fascinates me, and I don't understand why one would be compelled to try to do so.

One should be sensitive to a given situation, but in general I think one should oppose all wrong headed beliefs, not just voodoo superstition magic.

I think the question should be - Why do people stay silent?
Belief in mystical gods and support for organised religion is a pox on civilisation.
 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 25
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 8:59:14 AM
I think the question should be - Why do people stay silent?

maybe they recognize others' inherent right to believe how they want to believe about the ultimate nature of reality even if it's contrary to what you think they should believe.


Belief in mystical gods and support for organised religion is a pox on civilisation.

that would be your opinion and i am sure there are others who share it. in the meantime, how many wayward christian minds have you managed to enlighten with your blunt instrument? i'm betting not many and that your approach only serves to encourage them to hold onto their personal beliefs more firmly for the simple fact that they would prefer to not be more like you. so if your goal is to rid the planet of organized religion and mystical gods then you're going about it in entirely the wrong way. in the meantime, even if you could succeed, the planet would never be lacking for a slightly different but equally insidious kind of mental pox called "they were told to believe, and they believed accordingly", a.k.a. lyingcheatism. lol.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 26
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History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 9:07:53 AM

one should oppose all wrong headed beliefs


And who should enlighten us as to which ones are "right headed beliefs"? The rabid atheists?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 9:15:50 AM

maybe they recognize others' inherent right to believe how they want to believe about the ultimate nature of reality even if it's contrary to what you think they should believe.

Perhaps. But I'm not picky, I oppose, for instance, racist ideology too and gender discrimination, nor am I too keen on extreme right wingers.
That they might think racism, gender discrimination, eugenics, or whatever crackpot theory they ascribe to is part of the "nature of ultimate reality" is of no consequence to me.
Sick ideas are sick ideas.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 28
view profile
History
Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 9:21:58 AM

Ken and Frogo: You entirely miss the point of WHY it isn't okay to put the TC's in a government setting.

I didn't miss it at all. Perhaps you didn't read carefully enough. I was pointing out Ken's attempt to pull a fast one with a genetic fallacy. He tried to convince us that commandments as laws are a good thing because they include so obvious laws as "thou shalt not kill". Problem one, those particular laws, while good, are FAR from unique to that set of religious guidelines. Second flaw is that he deliberately omitted those commandments which are of a purely religious nature, hoping to slip those past us when we accept the rest.

Regardless of basic principles against inclusion of religious laws, this is a specific example of laws which might appear good on the surface but have the effect of legislating particular religious views. And this is one of the reasons atheists often argue strongly against religion - because left unwatched and unchecked, there always seems to be someone trying to fool the populace into accepting things that might SOUND nice at first, but which are really one more attempt to push or legislate particular religious views.
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