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 _TALL_IQ2_
Joined: 2/10/2010
Msg: 2
Osama bin Laden. Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)

Should he of been captured if unarmed ?


Nope, the seals shoulda heard his "time out I'm unarmed" cry and let him ollie oxen free..
He was tried and verdict was executed well..

Not yet, keep em for a few years for conspiricists to whine about..

Nope that was his twin brother with the 4 wives and 23 children just like him..
 CallmeKen
Joined: 9/4/2009
Msg: 3
Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/6/2011 7:12:35 PM

Should he of been captured if unarmed ?

For the facts on that, I will wait for the New York Times bestseller "Hunting Osama: A Navy Seal's Story". You know it's coming. If Miley Cyrus can sell a memoir at 16, you know some publisher is willing to pony up big bucks for a non-fiction.


should the American's of followed the rule of law and put him on trial for 9/11 ?

You mean the same rule of law against committing assassinations on foreign soil without an act of war? That rule of law?


Was he really killed the other day or has he been dead for years ?

Whether it was Osama, or his replacement in Al-Qaeda, that we'll never know. The Democrats are simply taking a page from George W.'s playbook: as lousy as the economy is, a war hero gets reelected.
 normaldude
Joined: 3/8/2006
Msg: 5
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/7/2011 9:00:41 AM
the states has really messed up the way they released info on this. If it had been an isreal thing you would never have heard about it or if you did you would be guessing about it all. Each piece of info released has been another drop of gas to stoke the extremists fire. The SEAL who shot him probably reacted the way he was trained expecting all the nuts in this death cult to be wanting to go out with a bomb vest or a blaze of gunfire. If I was standing in front of him and he is wearing the usual large flowing robes and I cant see his person clearly its gonna be "tap tap"... one in the head and one in the heart. Then home for a bunch of free drinks at the bar and a helluva war story.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 6
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/7/2011 10:47:23 AM

and should the American's of followed the rule of law and put him on trial for 9/11 ?


You are just asserting that this would have been the "rule of law," rather than explaining why. In war, following the law of war IS following the rule of law. Since when are the military forces of any country obligated to capture and try their enemies, instead of just killing them wherever they're found?


You mean the same rule of law against committing assassinations on foreign soil without an act of war?


I guess you're talking about the executive order from President Ford's day. That order only applies to foreign heads of state--not to jihadist murderers. And in any case, executive orders are not law. The Constitution places all the legislative powers it grants in the Congress, and the federal government has NO powers--NONE--except those the Constitution grants it.


maybe being brought to trial with roaring crowds outside the courthouse,which finally ended in his execution would of been a better way to deal with him


What utter nonsense. No one owed this rat turd a trial.

First, the purpose of criminal trials is to establish guilt--in the U.S., beyond a reasonable doubt. There was no more a reasonable doubt of Bin Laden's guilt than there was of Hitler's or Saddam's.

Second, there is no way the U.S. could have granted Bin Laden a jury trial in a civil court--the kind any regular American criminal defendant has a constitutional right to--without also granting him other constitutional rights that go with it.

Those include an absolute right to serve as his own counsel; with that, the right to see all the evidence against him (which would soon tell his fellow jihadists just how we'd obtained it); and also the right to prevent anything he'd said after his arrest from being used as evidence against him, unless he had first been read his Miranda rights. And what if he were acquitted? Set him free? If the U.S. continued to hold him despite his acquittal, what good would the sham trial have been?

And third, the Constitution of the U.S. does not grant even members of our own military who are accused of crimes the right to a jury trial in a civil court. And no part of the Constitution even applies to aliens outside U.S. territory, which Bin Laden was. Unlawful enemy combatants are subject to the laws of war. There is a very thorough discussion of this in Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942), and Quirin is still the law today.

The proper way to try a captured unlawful enemy combatant--i.e. a presumed war criminal--is before a military commission. If that's not practical, for example when a spy or saboteur is captured during a battle, he can be executed right on the spot after nothing but a brief--very brief--hearing by the ranking officer available.

German agents captured in U.S. uniform in the Battle of the Bulge in 1944-45 were stood up against the nearest tree and shot, and the Army filmed their executions. But U.S. forces have no duty to capture combatants of this kind at all, and if one of them is not likely to have any valuable information, they may choose to kill him on sight.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 7
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/7/2011 3:53:41 PM
To paraphrase a famous movie line... " He should've armed himself ", if he's going to kill 3000+ innocent people.
He had it coming and he knew it.
If he wanted a trial, he could've walked into any western country's embassy and given himself up.


What consequences will his death have to al-Qaeda ?

Probably devastating, but it wont be the end of terrorism.
We need to start treating terrorism as a police issue, not a military issue.


Should the pictures be released ?

NO. It's just a stupid losing rhetorical political game that Obama shouldn't get involved in.
The same people who insist they be released would only claim they're fake afterwards.

Tack the pictures up on a bulletin board in a back hallway of the White House and invite anyone who wants to can come and see them.


Was he really killed the other day or has he been dead for years ?

Before, I wasn't sure he was still alive.....
Now, I'm not sure he's really dead.

It doesn't matter, he's dead now.
 qedeshim
Joined: 4/18/2008
Msg: 8
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/7/2011 4:11:08 PM
So being a hero is shooting an unarmed male in the head these days is it? Brilliant!

No wonder the USA is slowly going down the pan!
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 9
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/7/2011 10:28:01 PM
Unarmed...and using other people as shields, directing airliners to be hijacked and flown into buildings, bombings of nightclubs, car bombs on metropolitan streets. Military target, dealt with with military alacrity. The SEALS involved are only "heros" by virtue of what they do and risk as a matter of their chosen careers. Not but virtue of who they save or kill. However, the implications you offer are to essentially to turn the tables, making the soldiers out to be criminals of some sort with Osama as some sort of innocent victim. Seriously. Consider psychiatric assessment. If the only way to achieve your goals is to terrorize civilians of BOTH your allies AND your "enemies", then it is your goals and methods which are criminal, and a bullet through the eye is suitable justice.

Despite machismo on the part of remaining Al Qaeda, the fact that Osama is now dead [and acknowledged as dead BY Al Qaeda] is likely to be somewhat crippling for the organization. He was head of the organization and actively involved in its organization for many years. His death is more or less a literal decapitation of the organization, and the additional deaths in the fortress and subsequent arrests in surrounding areas are likely to be quite significant impacts on both morale and management. There are at least two additional possible effects - those who might have tended to bow to jihadist pressure may be more willing to resist them now, and some of the less-convinced jihadists may themselves have a reconsideration of their beliefs and positions.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 10
Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/8/2011 5:03:38 AM
Being a man that spent a lot of time on the run/hiding means that he has people whom are capable of filling his position within the organization. People that lean toward the same sorts of decision he himself would make. I don't expect that much to change at all.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 11
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/8/2011 7:21:57 AM
All of these opinions are based on only 1% of the information required to actually know what happened and why. It is ESPECIALLY ludicrous to say thing like "this is why the U.S. is in decline, because we shoot unarmed people and praise ourselves for it."
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 12
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/8/2011 9:34:22 AM

Should he of been captured if unarmed ? and should the American's of followed the rule of law and put him on trial for 9/11 ?
It seems that the papers reported that it was a good thing that Obama was dead, and didn't much care that he was killed without a trial. So the Western world feels like this was the best outcome.

What consequences will his death have to al-Qaeda ?
I think it's going to make many Westerners, and especially Americans, think that they've got their man, and that this will send a warning to others, that will dissuade others from attacking them.

Should the pictures be released ?
It depends if you like gore. It will definitely sell papers.

Was he really killed the other day or has he been dead for years ?
Does it matter? The West believes he was, and that's all that matters to the West.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 14
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/8/2011 4:21:33 PM
I expect your general appraisal and prediction will prove correct, annasthasia. I only disagree slightly, in that I don't think that the "war merchants" part is a significant part of this. In other words, though "war merchants" do love to see conflicts arise for the sake of their businesses, and they will do their best to profit from what ever DOES happen, I know of only a tiny few instances in history wherein the "merchants of death" actually were at the controls of foreign policy such as that sentence hints.
But your description of the standard diplomatic dance is historically accurate. How the Pakistani's will formally complain, and we will formally ignore their complaint, and there will be various fusses and posturing for a while that will die down, and things will go back to the general bumpy road they've been on for a while.
It's really the same way many people behave with each other: pointed fusses and arguments over details of the moment, but as long as the MAIN trust of the relationship is stable, and is serving the desires and needs of the participants, the fusses of the moment will fade into the past.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 17
Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/8/2011 5:35:08 PM


Should he of been captured if unarmed ? and should the American's of followed the rule of law and put him on trial for 9/11 ?


And given a show trial like Saddam Hussein? It would be a waste of time and money because he would have been found guilty and executed anyway.



What consequences will his death have to al-Qaeda ?


None. It's not a centralized organization. Cut off one head and two grow back.



Should the pictures be released ?


Pics or it didn't happen



Was he really killed the other day or has he been dead for years ?


He's probably been dead for years and Obama is bringing it up now to take heat off of the Birther issue and to give himself a bump in the polls. Might be part of a longer term strategy because it gives him an excuse to get us out of Afghanistan just in time for the elections.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 19
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/9/2011 5:22:32 AM
"He's probably been dead for years and Obama is bringing it up now to take heat off of the Birther issue and to give himself a bump in the polls. Might be part of a longer term strategy because it gives him an excuse to get us out of Afghanistan just in time for the elections."
Oich. Believe what you wish, just realize you are ignoring, not JUST the Presidents claims, but also the claims of Al Quaeda, Pakistans government, the U.S. Navy, etc. Perhaps you think ALL of them want so much to give Obama a "bump in the polls," that they are willing to lie formally in unison. Enjoy your fantasy.

"Pics or it didn't happen " -cute, but meaningless since fake photos were first invented (by the way, that was about twenty minutes after REAL photos were invented). By that logic, NO ONE who was killed in any conflict, and who's body was not photographed and published, is still alive.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 20
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/9/2011 5:23:30 AM
Sorry, I meant "NO ONE...is DEAD."
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 21
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/9/2011 7:37:23 AM
look at it this way, the USA, made him a CIA agent, gave his organization billions,
so the they could ride the country of the soviets, in a very real way, he was an all american hero
as for him, i do not believe it
there would be a body, and his file would be opened, not off limits for close to a hundred years
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 22
Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/9/2011 7:49:05 AM


Oich. Believe what you wish, just realize you are ignoring, not JUST the Presidents claims, but also the claims of Al Quaeda, Pakistans government, the U.S. Navy, etc. Perhaps you think ALL of them want so much to give Obama a "bump in the polls," that they are willing to lie formally in unison. Enjoy your fantasy.


Oh, I forgot politicians never lie for political gain. That's why I believe that US destroyers were torpedoed by the North Vietnamese in the Gulf of Tonkin on August 4th 1964, that Richard Nixon had nothing to do with Watergate, that Reagan and Bush knew nothing about the Iran-Contra Scandal, that Bill Clinton did not have sex with that woman, and that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 23
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/12/2011 10:04:00 AM
^^^^
Ah! Okay then! Sounds like you are on top of things after all. Toodles!
 moonwalkerman
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 25
Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/12/2011 3:47:05 PM
I am never a proponent of conspiracy theories, never, but in this case, I find it utterly flabbergasting how easily the entire world eats up this story. I do believe they got him, but they got him alive, not dead. Why would they shoot the one guy that probably has more information on terrorists and their whereabouts all over the world than anyone else ? Of course nobody will ever be told that he is sitting somewhere now, answering questions. Great ploy, with the pictures, the sea burial, and everything else. No trial, no nothing.
There will never be any pictures released, because there are no pictures.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 29
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:52:27 PM
When insiders start to confirm his porn collection, he's bound to lose a fair amount of credibility among former allies as well. Of course, I'm sure porn is just as popular among misogynistic cultures as among others, but is likely accepted in a nudge-nudge wink-wink way.
 moonwalkerman
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 30
Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/13/2011 11:34:02 PM
One thing that really struck me when I was looking at the pictures of his compound was the shape it was in. What a dump. Here we have a supposed terrorist mastermind, and he lives in the dirt, worse than most animals. As a matter of fact, animals in general are very clean, and spend a considerable amount of time each time cleaning themselves. Unbelievable that this guy once instilled fear. He would have been better off hiding among the homeless in some large city, he would have fit in seamlessly, and nobody would have ever noticed him.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 31
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 5/14/2011 11:34:26 AM

... bound to lose a fair amount of credibility among former allies ...
I know just what you mean.

It has to be sort of like all those married Washington guys who chase women (or sometimes men) ... who go shirtless and put pictures up on the Internet seeking dates ... who have their parents pay off their lovers' families ... the list just goes on and on eh?

I'm sure porn is just as popular among misogynistic cultures as among others, but is likely accepted in a nudge-nudge wink-wink way.
o that's how the Republicans handle it? Who knew?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 33
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 6/8/2011 9:04:42 AM
“See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."—” George W. Bush.
935 lies to get to Iraq.
http://projects.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/
 RevenantBlues
Joined: 5/11/2011
Msg: 34
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 6/8/2011 10:43:25 AM
The operational specifics related to a kill/capture evolve ceaselessly, I suspect. Whether or not the operator's objective had been 'capture' or 'kill' ever changing conditions on the ground, inside the compound dictated the outcome.

No. DoD ought to destroy the 'death' photos. Remember how the media used video of deceased GIs after Mogadishu?

I believe the entire operation should have remained clandestine. His deletion from life was a victory, beneficially served the U.S./NATO led war on terror. Going public was strategically unnecessary.
 UnixGrand
Joined: 5/9/2011
Msg: 35
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 6/11/2011 4:41:01 PM
Did justice find Osama Bin Laden, or did Osama Bin Laden find justice?

All I know is he tried to kill me. He's gone but I'm still around to talk about it.
 UnixGrand
Joined: 5/9/2011
Msg: 37
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Osama bin Laden.
Posted: 6/15/2011 9:56:30 PM
All I know is he tried to kill me. He's gone but I'm still around to talk about it.


When I said it, I didn't mean it literally. You would have actually needed to be there in the quadrant to get all the sights, smells, and views of the day. Oh yeah... And sounds. like the Billy Joel song, she was "Always A Woman To Me". Because that was what was playing while Nero played his fiddle (lyre).
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