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Show ALL Forums  > Australia  > Live Cattle Exports      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 tinapenny
Joined: 8/30/2010
Msg: 1
Live Cattle ExportsPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Following the recent 4 Corners programs showing the terrible cruelty inflicted on Australian cattle slaughtered in some abattoirs in Indonesia, the public outcry forced the Federal Government to temporarily ban live cattle exports until the situation could be addressed.

Many people want the ban to be made permanent, and to include all live animal shipments, so that we can ensure that Australian standards are met in slaughtering, halal or otherwise. The plan would be then to export the meat rather than the live animal, thus avoiding cruel conditions in both the shipping and the slaughtering.

On the other hand, farmers have been badly affected by the live cattle export ban. Cattle that were already in holding yards in Port Hedland and Broome at the time of the ban were unable to be shipped and had to be kept penned and eventually returned to the farm at considerable cost to the grower. Farming families that were budgeting on the sale of stock were placed in severe financial straits as the industry ground to a halt. In some cases the cattle were unable to be marketed even after the ban was lifted as, in the meantime, they had reached a body weight over the limit Indonesian importers will accept.

There is some doubt over whether the industry, which involves many family farms and stations, would be able to continue if processing had to be done within Australia. Initially there would need to be abattoirs built where there are none or few existing, and secondly, if Indonesia prefers to slaughter their own cattle due to their religious customs, they can source them from South America or South Africa and bypass Australia altogether. They could then merrily slaughter the cattle in whatever way seems good to them.

It seems to me that this is more than just a choice between the needs of people and the needs of animals since there are some abattoirs in Indonesia that slaughter cattle humanely and there are not many options for Northern Australia if the cattle industry were to wind down.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 2
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History
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/4/2011 9:27:30 PM
People arelooking for an excuse to blame Labor for anything.
The fact is, pretty much everyone wanted the trade stopped, so Labor did it. Then the farmers started to complain and all of a sudden people don't care about the poor cows and use the initial decision as evidence of incompetence.
Labor are damned if they do and damned if they don't on pretty much everything. The Libs, of course, are never held to the same standard and are given a free pass. On everything.
 qldblue
Joined: 2/4/2009
Msg: 3
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/5/2011 6:19:56 AM
Long before this situation hit the media, there would have been evidence of this treatment of cattle being exported to Indonesia long before now.

So why weren't these concerns addressed before now by the livestock association or the government or even the unions?

Farmers do work hard for their money as do a lot of other people but once the cattle were sold they are not the property of the farmers, the livestock association or the do-gooders.

As with any other situation governing another country's laws or customs, we can sit and protest as much as we like BUT we must respect the laws of another country whether we believe those laws to be just or fair.

There are signs at every major transit centre in Indonesia that states quite plainly that if a person who is caught with drugs could be executed by being shot, this is written in plain easy to understand language and our do-gooders get fired up when Australians are caught with drugs in Indonesia but say nothing about the locals who are also caught.

We must respect the laws and customs of other countries even if we don't believe the laws are fair, we expect people who come to Australia to respect our laws and customs.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 4
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/6/2011 1:21:43 AM
The concerns were raised before, that much is true. The fact is it was only seen as a hippie concern until the footage was shoved in peoples faces.
 tinapenny
Joined: 8/30/2010
Msg: 5
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/6/2011 4:09:11 AM
Imagine the outcome then of footage of live sheep exports!!
 qldblue
Joined: 2/4/2009
Msg: 6
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/6/2011 10:22:40 PM
Imagine the concern of the people if they saw what can happen in our own abboittars
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 7
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/24/2011 4:47:25 AM
Imagine if the footage of our bombing of afganistan was shoved in peoples faces and the footage of women and children torn apart by shrapnel on the 6 oclock news....



cattle represent a protien source, afghani's a gas and oil source.....we have to eat but we dont have to use gas and oil...
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 8
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/24/2011 8:29:40 AM
Except we're not in Afghanistan for the oil, we're there because the Taliban thought it was ok to blow a woman's head off in front of a soccer stadium full of men for daring to lift her veil or persue an education.
Also the whole "harboring groups which definitely want to kill every single one of us" thing.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 9
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/26/2011 7:49:21 PM
If you believe the Russian news media (let alone any segment of their autocratic State) you've got bigger credulity problems I could hope to address here. The entire country is run by ex-KGB and current gangsters. Oh... and oil executives. More so than the USA.
It may surprise you to know that Russia may have its own reasons in attempting to spread such ridiculous tripe.
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 10
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/26/2011 11:05:01 PM
Australian forign minister commented about securing australian interests (oil) in the region. Its not as if its a conspiracy theory, its actualy admitted to by the goverment.

Seems your the one with the conspiracy theory that it aint about the oil.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 11
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/26/2011 11:17:21 PM
I think it's fair to say it's in no ones interests to have a major oil transit point controlled by the Taliban and related elements. Pretty uncontroversial.
Such a situation certainly didn't benefit the Afghan people.
Still, would LOVE to actually see you quote Kevin Rudd saying we're there for the oil. I notice you neglected to do that and I think I know why (the quote doesn't exist).
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 12
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/27/2011 7:53:12 PM
Except we're not in Afghanistan for the oil, we're there because the Taliban thought it was ok to blow a woman's head off in front of a soccer stadium full of men for daring to lift her veil or persue an education.


this was your first response.

now

you say


I think it's fair to say it's in no ones interests to have a major oil transit point controlled by the Taliban and related elements.

so which one is it?

If you wish to point to human rights, why would we ignore many other countries who are more brutal? forgetting the fact in ten years we've achieved nothing........


Americans first tried to negotiate in 2001 with the taliban, like they offered Hussien the chance to in 2003 .....

and as you also say
Such a situation certainly didn't benefit the Afghan people.
which you are right but not the way you meant.

no the situation doesnt suit the afghans, casulties in the hundreds of thousands, refuggess even more, taliban was wiping out the poppy industry and since we have been there its only grown.........
If you dont know afghanistan is now a major player in opium, opium makes herion, herione is responsible for shit loads of crime and general suffering in Australia...........

pakistan is a mess, utter, utter mess......because elements in pakistan dont like what the indians are doing in Kashmire and we support the indians because they don't like the chinese........sought of rob peter to pay paul shit, except it aint our citizens suffering...



Still, would LOVE to actually see you quote Kevin Rudd saying we're there for the oil. I notice you neglected to do that and I think I know why (the quote doesn't exist).

your the one with the conspiracy theory, where's your evidence? only evidence your producing is contradicting yourself.........no substance......

I could go threw the streams of Q@A where Rudd was brutaly honest about our behavior in the middle east when the "no fly zone" in libya was being proposed. But since your saying you think it didnt exist, i'll leave it up to you to go threw those streams and show me it didnt exist.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 13
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/30/2011 1:26:42 AM
"so which one is it? "

They're quite obviously not mutually exclusive statements. If you bother to think about it that becomes quite apparent. Quickly.

"...and show me it doesn't exist."

Um, really? How am I supposed to prove a quote doesn't exist? Post everything Kevin Rudd has said since he learned how to talk?
Get real buddy... if Kevin Rudd had said that you would easily be able to find the quote. The fact you haven't posted it here only shows you made it up. Nice try though.

Also I never called it a conspiracy theory. That gives your line of thought way too much credit.:)
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 14
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/30/2011 1:48:03 AM
Now, I want to be clear. When I say I want the quote, I don't mean I want you to post a link to ABC's iView.
I want you to find exactly when and where Kevin Rudd said we're in Afhanistan for the oil (yes, oil, not "strategic interests"). Then post the quote verbatim here, properly sourced.
In any case I never miss an episode of Q&A and would recall if Rudd had said anything like that. If he did it would have also been heavily reported in the press (domestic and international).
So there you go. Should be easy if he said what you said he did, right?;)
 qldblue
Joined: 2/4/2009
Msg: 15
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/30/2011 5:36:13 AM
The situation in Afghanistan is a completly different thread to this one, this thread is about Live Cattle Exports, not about the war in Afghanistan.

It is amazing that the greens and sections of the labor party have only recently been vocal about the live cattle trade, more so now than when it first begun, this is fact.

Once we had an effective Labor Party that did look at the welfare of Australians but the current mob are giving the once staunch labor supporters more concerns about where we are heading.

Even the Liberals appear to be losing their supporters as well.

Is it a case that our politicians are losing sight of what is good for Australia or how to appease the minorities.

I have seen over the years how a sitting government hatches some new found ideas and then when in opposition blame the current government for the problems and the mistakes.

As the sellers do we have the right to tell the purchasers how to handle the product after we have been paid?, No

But we do have the right to either accept payment or reject the sale?, Yes

If we stop selling Live Cattle to Indonesia, will that stop the conditions that are now highlighted , No, as Indonesia will only change suppliers.

That is an unfortunate fact of business and the right or wrong of those business ethics is up to our trade people to decide whether we as Australians can accept them or not.

Money talks and Indonesia has a lot of money, where as the impact on our economy, our farmers and whoever else relies on this business has to be also considered.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 16
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/30/2011 11:20:46 PM
I'm with you on that, blue. The original post comparing the two was so specious and random I had to comment on it.
I wish there was more politics talk here... as a member of the ALP though I get the feeling I would be under siege though.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 17
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/31/2011 12:55:35 AM
Everybody recognized that the meatworks weren't Australian-owned. The issue was that Australian farmers and companies were supplying these places knowing or wilfully ignoring how below-standard they were.
Also the government can't dictate that Australian farmers only supply livestock to one company (Elders). It would breach several dozen free trade agreements and isn't a long-term solution.
 qldblue
Joined: 2/4/2009
Msg: 18
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 8/31/2011 7:36:26 AM
Unfortunately whatever good policies that have come out are being overshadowed by the whims of the minor parties and this doesn't lead to an effective government.

As a once staunch Labor supporter, I grew up in Fremantle, I now question the policies of the Labor party whether they are in government or as an effective opposition.

I have found that a lot of Labor politicians do lose their perspective once elected and as such we now have more knee jerk reactions to the complaints from the greens.

This has been happening more so since the Howard Government defeat in 2007 than at any other time with Labor governments.

The Live Cattle Export situation is only a small knee jerk reaction but with a high economic impact on the innocent parties in Australia.
 internetdatinglol
Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 19
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Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 9/2/2011 3:32:30 AM
Not saying this applies to you but why is it that "life-long Labor supporter" is normally code or a euphemism for "current rabid conservative"? I see the phrase in the press all the time.
I simply don't see how people can go from supporting the party of trade unionism and progressivism (at least nominally) to thinking Tony Abbott is a good guy to be running the country. That's more than a little frustration it's a complete 180 degree turnaround!
Again, don't think this applies to you. It's a general comment.
 qldblue
Joined: 2/4/2009
Msg: 20
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 9/3/2011 10:43:49 PM
As you have raised the point about "life long Labor supporter" in your post, I can only speak for myself so hear goes..

Way back in the 70's, there were unions getting their members to go on strike for stupid ideas, this is a fact as the relationship between unions and employers was a typical us and them standoff.

Whatever good that was starting to emerge between unions, employers and employees was being destroyed by the radicals who were very powerful in the unions then, plus the emergence of evidence of wrong doing by some union secretaries/ organisers.

Before you say anything, thankfully those days are for the major part behind us.

Do I think Abbott would be better at running this country and to be very honest, he couldn't do any better or worse than Gillard, so my answer to that is No, he and Gillard are not good Prime Minister material.

I am sure the Labor Party has a better candidate for Prime Minister than most of the factions will allow.

You might be a tad too young but there were a lot of Labor politicians back in the day who would have thought out what was required and would have got their hands dirty to research issues not rely on advisors.

When I have a Labor Politician say to me that he knows how tough my job is and when questioned if he has ever worked in the hospitality industry he says no then he knows nothing, I don't have time for him.

But if he is honest and asks me how hard my job is and seems interested then I will make time.

Some of the worst guests I have ever had to cater too are unfortunately Labor politicians, they don't even say thankyou.

Not bad for the party for the workers and even with my dissatisfaction with Labor, I have never voted for the coalition.
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 21
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 9/16/2011 2:35:24 AM
australia is universaly regarded as probably having the best oh+s in the world....

Unions fought tooth and nail for that.......not that i'm a unionist but it needs to be acknowlaged, where as industry has failed to look after what its responsibility is, its recources and the enviorement that produces those recources..
 Hilly02
Joined: 10/7/2011
Msg: 22
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 10/14/2011 3:28:27 AM

Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight. ~Albert Schweitzer

I for one am deeply ashamed of this trade.......Australia has a lot to learn.
 robertaus
Joined: 1/26/2010
Msg: 23
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 10/14/2011 12:48:34 PM
Gee we must be a bunch of dummies if we are in Afghanistan for the oil as their daily production per day= 0.000. Gas production is minimal also.
As for live cattle exports, i couldn't give a rats what happens to them when they leave our shores.
 MrsNaamah
Joined: 11/8/2011
Msg: 24
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 11/27/2011 8:12:06 PM
We may well need to eat, but quite obviously we don't need to torture.

Animal activists (otherwise known as pink haired, lesbian, vegan, do-gooder hippies by those who rely on stereotypes to make them feel more comfortable with the world) are often criticised for being too emotional as a means of dismissing their concerns. Not sure when the ability to remain detached whilst watching another sentient being suffer become any kind of desirable personality trait. Or when economic reality became the only reality that mattered. Or when being mindful of money become a more prized quality than being mindful of morals, ethics, or possessed of empathy. In fact, I shake my head at any claim that ‘failing to care’ is somehow the default position of greater wisdom. Thankfully it was not the particular attitude that prevailed (even though it sure as hell existed) when the disgraceful slave trade finally came under similar scrutiny.

Anyhow... even as animal activists are accused of attempting to tweak the emotions of others with their images of animals trembling in fear, and screaming in agony...the other side offers their own emotionally-laden image; that of the poor downtrodden small-scale farmer. That image is representative of their own call for empathy. So as accusations are made about animal cruelty being 'staged', or 'exaggerated', how many bother to question that other image?

The Australian Agriculture Company has a big fat finger in the live export pie. …19 cattle stations, 3 feedlots and 3 farms. They own 7.2 million hectares of land which is apparently 1.1% of Australia’s landmass. Wow!! Now they suffered loss as a result of the one month suspension of live export. No doubt about it. And they sure want it to continue.

Funny thing about that is, the Australian Agriculture Company, despite their name, is 20% owned by the Malaysian Government through its company Felda. Felda have also somehow managed to wangle 33% representation on the board. Significant shares are owned by a Dubai based company, and the big banks are also major players. So that's the Australian Agriculture Company in a nutshell. Doesn't sound much like the poor struggling Aussie grazier concept that some insist on claiming are the people at the heart of this issue. Multi-nationals own huge tracts of our farming land. But hey, stick 'Australia' in the name and people will happily assume the rest.

And Meat Livestock Australia (MLA), the ones supposedly keeping us informed about the goings on in the trade, sure needs to keep big players like the AACo happy. So who are we really hearing from when MLA speaks? And is it really concern for the little bloke that is driving the MLA, the live exporters, or the government? If you think it is...I got a bridge in Sydney you might be interested in buying.

There are many behind-the-scenes money trails that lead directly overseas if you care to peek behind the curtain of live export. Accordingly, I would hope that those who are quick to accuse animal activists of being overemotional and oversimplistic, and/or who claim to be basing their opinions on unemotional reality in regards to this issue, are looking beyond the spin-doctoring of those claiming to have the best interests of average hard-working Australians in mind, and not just blindly presuming their own wisdom because of some weird perception about the value of remaining dispassionate towards the physical suffering of animals.

I also hope such people are absorbing the point of view of meatworkers....the other hard-working Aussies and their families effected by all of this who don't seem to be attracting the same table-thumping concern from those professing to be so worried about the farmers and their families. Since the 70's the meatworkers have lamented the loss of jobs as a result of live export. I listened to a rep from the AMIEU (meatworkers union) speak earlier this year, and he cited 30,000 jobs lost due to live export. That's a much higher figure than I've heard the politicians cite would be lost if live export stops (3,000). I also read a report that provided a list of named Australian communities that have dried up and blown away because they were dependent on their abattoir, which has closed due to live export. So it doesn't seem to me to have been a matter of us lacking the infrastructure to slaughter here, but of having let it decay in the pursuit of live export. And when you look at who was really driving that shift, well, it wasn't the little blokes.

And what of concerns for the economy? New Zealand stopped live export in 2003 after the debacle where 5000 Aussie sheep died on the Como Express, and nobody starved on their farms as a result. And I read an economic report that concluded that here in Australia, our economy would benefit from switching to only exporting refrigerated meat. A sheep is apparently worth 20% more to our economy if we slaughter it here, due to the potential to value add...which also means more jobs. Might explain why graziers in Uganda are screaming for their government to keep their promise made last year to stop live export because the economy would be better off if they slaughter locally. And why the Fremantle council (Fremantle being a major spot where sheep are exported from) have decided to phase it out over the next 4 years because they want to create more local jobs. There is just so much stuff I have read/heard which contradicts all this table-thumping about jobs and economic benefits, that I don't see how anyone who has looked into it further can continue to pose it as a genuine argument.

Regardless, I suspect there are always going to be people who will continue to represent this whole issue as being as simple as ‘poor farmer’ versus ‘stupid hippie’ no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary… and who like to think they are being ‘realistic’ just cos they talk about money rather than suffering. It must be hard though, for the stereotype-sticklers to reconcile the fact that the pink-haired lesbian vegans, and the beer-drinking singlet-wearing salt-of-the-earth meatworkers, are both on the same side? And that it’s actually big foreign owned companies pulling the strings of those who are pretending to be local boys representing a bunch of battling Aussie farmers?

Animals who experience live export are enduring suffering that goes well beyond what was seen on Four Corners this year, and it's been going on for about 30 years. It's about what goes on on the boats as much as it is about what happens in the unloading and the slaughter itself. There was a senate enquiry in the 80's and all sorts of horror was revealed then. Nothing has changed despite the recommendations that came out of that enquiry. After that long, anyone using the term 'kneejerk' is merely revealing that they themselves only just learned about any of it this year. Rest assured, the live exporters and the government did not just learn about it this year.
 Hilly02
Joined: 10/7/2011
Msg: 25
Live Cattle Exports
Posted: 11/30/2011 2:13:37 PM

pink haired, lesbian, vegan, do-gooder hippies

I resemble that remark.......apart from the pink haired lesbian bit.

Muso....you would imagine that understanding sentience would make the way we treat animals a no brainer, but sadly it seems to be the opposite. Australia seems to lag so far behind many other Western nations in its treatment of livestock, that its just kind of pathetic and says a whole lot about the strength of our government and the fingers that are in whose pie's. It also says a lot about the ability of people ( ie the general public) to turn a blind eye as long as they are getting what they want cheaply.......luckily this is slowly changing and far more people are objecting now then previously.

To my way of thinking the fact that we can legally do things to livestock that would land us in jail or with huge fines if we did the exact same things to a dog or cat is wrong and indefensible. Are we saying that sentience in dogs is different to sentience in cows or pigs? Its the exact same thing.........but it suits us to not acknowledge this.

Pain is pain no matter what the species.......suffering is suffering no matter what the species........as the species that considers itself top of the food chain and master of the world, I feel we owe it to the animals many of us look down on to treat them with a whole lot of respect and kindness.....after all they die for us to consume.

Personally I don't eat anything that was ever alive....apart from the occasional bloke
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