|megalithic constructionPage 1 of 17 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)|
|I am no engineer, physicist.. really have no disciplines in this area|
BUT... I look at the worlds megalithic sites, from the pyramids to Baalbek to the ruins in south and central America, to Stonehenge, etc...the list is enormous... and I've read some of the various theories as to their construction.. and it still doesn't make sense how so many people and cultures who were not known to have any technology (or very little) some didn't even have the wheel, much less pulleys, block and tackle, etc... could possible quarry, move great distances, and construct buildings and monuments that we today would either have difficulty doing or patently could not do. Some were built BEFORE the use of iron... (?) Some of these megaliths date from before the written word (or to historians - history as we know it)
I am not arguing that the ancients were stupid, obviously that isn't the case, but from what we know their civilizations were not technologically based - yet they performed feats of engineering that are frankly - staggering, and we find more and more evidence of clearly high level planning (aqueducts, inddor plumbing, irrigation...etc...) all the time as archaeology uncovers more of the past.
My question is, considering the scope of these works, the tools we know they had and the time involved how the heck did they accomplish these things? Personally I think we are missing some essential piece of this puzzle.
Posted: 10/8/2011 12:37:05 PM
|I think it is pretty simple(haha), civilizations are older than we knew or were told about, and probably due to several major catastrophes causing stumbling blocks or even things being halted completely, and we also have narrow minded researchers who are ignorant, and possibly the geography was dramatically different, all i know for sure is i do not know and will keep looking and listening|
Posted: 10/8/2011 1:21:14 PM
|One of the more recent examples is Coral Castle, built single handed by a Latvian American eccentric, 5 foot 90 lb, Edward Leedskalnin (1887-1951) north of the city of Homestead, Florida. The structure comprises numerous megalithic stones. He said he had figured out how to move the stones like the ancients. He used a magnetic flywheel and some other basic tools including mason jars wrapped with copper wire. Here is a video about him.|
The Revelation Of The Pyramids
Posted: 10/8/2011 1:25:37 PM
|I'm alos beginning to suspect that 'civilization' is older than is currently thought, at least in some areas.. and I agree that natural (?) disaster and geological/climate changes have probably destroyed or otherwise hidden any evidence that may be left. Unfortunately a lot of materials do not last long - metals, fabric, wood products and textile fibers - what we find are only the most durable things and even then, time has given us only the tip of the iceberg (which I frequently remind people who insist on trying to debunk evolution - the fossil record is scant - it's just the nature of it)|
What we are left with is an enigma - and us trying to 'interpret' what we find through our own culture and bias. There are some very odd things that have been found that don't correlate with the 'accepted' timeline of human history - though some have been shown to be hoaxes, there are still some - like the megaliths, that defy conventional wisdom.
Thank you for an honest answer
Posted: 10/8/2011 1:39:07 PM
|Ed Leedskalnin pyramids mason magic - Coral Castle Part 3|
Posted: 10/8/2011 1:48:47 PM
|I have only questions, not answers.. I too think that we don't have the entire story. |
I wonder if we ever truly will?
Posted: 10/8/2011 2:01:35 PM
|I'm watching the "revelations" video (documentary) posted above right now.. so far it's very good - check it out when you have time|
warning - it's over an hour long
Hi Shakti, nice to see you out
Posted: 10/8/2011 2:57:54 PM
|mainly, how they moved all that heavy stuff in the olden days.|
seems to be a problem with extra large dinos too.
an animal larger than todays large animals on land would have a tough time in todays gravity, some speculate.
giraffes seem to be todays limit for hight.
elephants for horizontal neck length.
gooney bird for bird size limit.
also, people had less deliterious mutations back then, so were probably more intelligent.
today we have technology built on top of technology.
all speculation, of course.
Posted: 10/8/2011 3:35:06 PM
|It's a challenging area to study, because there are a number of confusions that are repeated.|
I don't mean to try to debunk anything in particular here, as I find a number of these things VERY intriguing too, however:
SOME of the instances of megalithic structures being "beyond modern abilities" are just plain false, exaggerations by ignorant commentators. Some are also confused by myths and by religious interventions, such as the common, but apparently FALSE idea that the Pyramids were built by unskilled slave labor.
There are a LOT of technologies and skills that have simply been lost over time, due to civilization going through periods where they weren't needed, or were lost due to the fall of great civilizations.
Rome, for example, learned to use concrete extensively for many things in their time, but after the fall of the Western empire, it was forgotten entirely, and had to be relearned from the beginning many many generations later.
In addition, SOME great things are accomplished even today, not by magical means, or even through extreme cleverness, but simply by the people doing them to be WILLING to go to the trouble and effort required.
My own favorite head scratchers are the huge stone structures in South America, where even TREMENDOUS patience and work, would not be enough to explain how they managed to shape great stones to fit together both so tightly, AND with no uniformity at all. After all, fitting together very flat stonework, as with the Egyptian pyramids, is relatively straightforward, in terms of taking the time to make sure each stone is made precisely flat before being dragged into place. But shaping a multi-ton boulder to fit perfectly with another RANDOMLY cut stone, and THEN drag it into place high on a mountain, and have it fit so well that one CAN complete anything at all in a reasonable time....now THAT is impressive.
Posted: 10/8/2011 4:42:02 PM
|It’s funny that just about every ancient account—be it, Biblical or myths, folklore…|
They all speak of a -- time before, but there’s never an acceptable time scale that, we could consider today, as relevant. . A time of gods and giants, monsters and flying dragons—etc
The only attempt, that I can recall, as to a timeline to these events can be found in the Bible—the whole 10,000 year creation debate…
The interesting part is—we are now finding more and more possible examples of what appear to be-- ancient construction, under water.
One of the more prevalent themes in the majority of these ancient stories, as in the Bible, is a flood,, A big flood !!!! smile
The second interesting part is—there is growing evidence for a fast and massive elevation in global waters—around 12,000 yrs. Age---or as in the Bible 10,000 yrs bce.
85% of, today’s population, live/construct-- close to the worlds oceans and seas.
The Wisconsin glaciations extended from approximately 110,000 to 10,000 years ago.
There’s that 10,000 year thing again--
Canada and northern USA- was covered by over a :::’’’mile high’’ Ice sheet..
So Imagine---picture a mass of ice-- half the size of North America—
And on top of this mass of ice there’s a puddle, forming as the heat of the sun moves into a warmer stage. That Puddle grows into a dam a lake, then a fresh water sea—Then –into, what could be considered, an inland ocean—10—20,, times the size of all the great lakes combined…
And Then—the dam breaks !! Anything in the floods wake would be washed away.
As it hits the ocean water there would a massive wave--- oceans would rise—etc..
This could have happened all around the world on different ice sheets within a reasonably close-- time frame..
I think it’s possible – we’ve been here before, and maybe more than once.
Posted: 10/8/2011 4:56:26 PM
The mathematics are very interesting - what else is interesting is the construction of those, as you say, irregular walls.. these can be found in Cuzco, Macchu Picchu, Egypt, Easter Island, and many other sites around the world, and also from various time periods (hard to say because stone can't be 'dated')
another thing that's interesting is the astrological feature - most megaliths seem to be oriented on the equinoxes - understandable to those who spent more time in touch with the natural world than we do but the exactness is formidable.
It seems funny to me that the scientific world isn't completely blown away by this stuff - leaving engineering mysteries to archaeologists who may be good at what they do - but really do not have the background to analyze these things. I am a curious cat lol but this stuff really fires the 'need to know' in me and I wonder if the archaeological world may be too comfortable with their paradigms and rote theories to look beyond the box.
Maybe they need a few hours with a theoretical quantum physicist? just joking.. but I made my point I think. Has science become too dogmatic to approach the unanswered?
Posted: 10/8/2011 8:54:02 PM
|"SOME of the instances of megalithic structures being "beyond modern abilities" are just plain false, exaggerations by ignorant commentators. Some are also confused by myths and by religious interventions, such as the common, but apparently FALSE idea that the Pyramids were built by unskilled slave labor."|
Oh ? What about the Trilithon at Baalbek? Could those stones be quarried and moved from the same quarry and the same distance over the same challenging ground condtions?
Posted: 10/8/2011 9:00:55 PM
|The Nabta Playa complex is the earliest known Archeological site in Egypt (c.11,000 years old) and only recently has our knowledge of Astrophysics become complex enough to understand that it is a map of the heavens over a 26,000 year long period|
Nabta Playa Complex Pt1
Nabta Playa Complex Pt2
Posted: 10/9/2011 4:02:15 AM
My question is, considering the scope of these works, the tools we know they had and the time involved how the heck did they accomplish these things? Personally I think we are missing some essential piece of this puzzle.
Do you have 10 friends about $50 for materials and a bunch of rocks?
Since for testing reasons i am sure having one big rock is out of most peoples reach.
Go to a lumber store and buy a few sheets of that white board in the bathroom material section. It is the same stuff that dry erase boards are made out of.
lay one sheet perfectly flat on the ground smooth side up. Build a box out of plywood and use another sheet of the white board on the bottom with the smooth side facing down.
Assemble your friends together first thing in the morning after the morning dew has formed on the board laying on the ground. Place the box you made onto the smooth surface that has dew formed onto it and fill it with a bunch of rocks.
have 4 of your friends stand on each side of it with something like rubber mallets. have another friend attach a rope to the front of the box and stand in front of it ready to pull it.
You stand behind it ready to push it. Then in sequence have each of your friends bang on the board that is laying on the ground with one on each side hitting at exactly the same time with the next 2 making impact directly after the first 2. with them hitting the sheet that is laying flat over and over and the morning dew on it, even just 2 people one pulling and one pushing can move several tons of rock. It slides and glides over the surface like it is floating.
The vibrations combined with the morning dew between the surfaces creates a near frictionless surface and those slight vibrations from the constant banging on the base surface is just enough to make that box of rocks weightless for a fraction of a second.
Keeping those impact vibrations constant by alternating blows is key to success.
something as simple as this allows a group of 10 people to move an object of several tons and no wheel is needed.
edit. If your surfaces are harder than that white board you could use sand instead of dew but by transporting rocks over great distances that way it might eventually grind the rocks perfectly flat and polish them so unless that is what you are trying to do it likely would not be recommended :wink:
Posted: 10/9/2011 7:48:09 AM
Splitting stone for example is pretty straight forward, drill a few holes, put wooden wedges in them, tip water on it and wait. The rock will split as the wood expands, pretty simple really. Moving large pieces of stone is also straight forward, you drag it with rollers, grease and shear determination. However, you need a reason to do this, today we do not have one.
Actually, I'd say that's pretty much nails it on the head. The ancients who performed these amazing construction projects did so because they were motivated to do so. Maybe it was the commands of their ruler, maybe it was the demands of their "deity." Either way, these are cultural phenomenon.
A show on History Channel called Ancient Discoveries is a great watch to show you just how intelligent our ancient ancestors were, however. But, understand...they were tremendous observers of nature! Even without comprehending all the mysteries, as craftspeople, they could experiment with different techniques for accomplishing certain goals and refine it over generations. The brilliance of these people is stunning -and humbling - when you think about it!!
Certainly, the story of humankind's prehistory is far from told completely. I think the problem comes when you start to try and fill in the gaps. Arguments from incredulity or ignorance frequently result in people filling in the gaps with 'missing civilizations' and 'aliens.' But, without evidence, you might as well fill it in with pixies and magic unicorns.
Data talks, BS walks!
Posted: 10/9/2011 8:14:25 AM
|Quite so. This isn't at all a reason to TURN AWAY from those spectacular ancient achievements. It's a reason to recognize all the more just how brilliant some of our forefathers and mothers really were. |
I attribute the drift toward belief in "alien helpers" to the egotism of too many second- and third-rate historians, who's lack of imagination and/or knowledge of physics, led them to put forward the notion that our forebears were "dumber" than we are. That ancient ignorance equates with ancient lower intelligence.
I see related acts of egotism elsewhere: we have a thread here somewhere, in which someone is trying to suggest that a link exists between intelligence and job descriptions. We suffer from some religious believers who link respect for intelligence in others to whether or not those others believe as they do, AND we suffer some of their opponents who claim that beliefs of any kind about gods, is ALSO a sign of lower intelligence.
Posted: 10/9/2011 8:54:23 AM
|Data yes.. but I haven't seen much of that. It seems to be a subject that is kind of quiet in the scientific community. It feels like, "if we ignore it maybe it will go away, cause we don't know", to me. |
I agree there is a lot of wild speculation, and a lot of 'filling in the gaps' - some of it is a bit 'out there', but that's what happens when there is very little information.
Motivation is a big factor, I agree - but it doesn't change the laws of physics. The ancient Egyptians were a remarkable people, granted, with a civilization that was highly developed..and highly organized. I can almost say they may have had the 'technology' to accomplish some of the construction on their own.. but megaliths are all over the world - in places where the peoples weren't as advanced as the Egyptians.. take the Inca, they didn't even have the wheel and were doing this in tropical rainforests and very rough terrain and high altitudes. Yet their constructions are quite similar to the Egyptians and they handles these extremely large blocks - hauling them up mountain sides. The pre-celtic people who built Stonehenge were also less advanced (as far as we know) than any of the peoples in the middle east and northern Africa.
I do not agree that dressing stone to the exactness and precision that some megaliths have... is the same as 'splitting rock', we know they quarried..and I'm not questioning their intelligence or skill at all, but without iron tools and precise measuring devices how did they get things fitted so well that you can not insert a piece of paper between blocks?
It's estimated that to build the great pyramid in the 20 years it was supposed to have been constructed they would have had to place approximately 13 stones (weighing between 3-30 tons each - with a few up to 70 tons) AN HOUR.. IF you calculate that they worked 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year - 26 stones an hour if you give it a 12 hour work day. With precision... I find that mind boggling. (I started with the estimate of 2,300,000 blocks, not including the casing stones)
From what I understand today we can, with a very large cranes and other machinery, lift and position about 250 tons, maximum. That's not dragging it over terrain - just lifting with a crane. And this isn't done often.. it's extreme engineering.
Some of the stones at Baalbek are over 800 tons, Dew? No, I don't think so and I would be very happy to see that citation. Various experiments with much smaller weights have been carried out and have not been entirely successful. Moving these things is one problem - the other is lifting some to great heights.. even with an earthen ramp the degree of inclination would have to be very slight or you are right back to the problem of moving these things. Did they even have ropes with the tensile strength to handle some of these unbelievably large sized stones? Today we use steel cables.
yes, yes, I know it's wiki - but it's a jumping off point.
Posted: 10/9/2011 9:25:38 AM
I'm not really interested in theories about aliens or telekinesis, religion or whatever (unless all other theories are proved wrong - then, like Sherlock Holmes, one must look at the alternatives however improbable) This is a straight physics subject. It was not my intention to open the door to wild speculation or to denigrate the ancients intelligence, skill or ambition. This is the science forum - not the religion forum.
Yes, it's a mystery - but all problems start out that way - don't they? That is the beginning of scientific inquiry - the "I don't know - let's hypothesize and theorize and research and see what we can find out - then let's test those theories".
The answers I have seen from science on this subject seem kind of flimsy to me, they really don't hold water, and that's why I opened it up - that and the impression that science doesn't seem to like really difficult problems anymore, and definitely problems that go against the grain of "accepted" theory - even more so when it's about the ancient world. I wonder about that. Has science, in this area, become stagnant? Is science becoming as dogmatic as religion? Doesn't that seem kind of 'anti-science'. Should a problem be ignored just because some people are throwing out wild speculation? It's sort of like politics and conspiracy theories - just because some conspiracy theories may be crazy doesn't mean there are NO conspiracies, or that all such theories are crazy - that's sloppy thinking. That's just burying ones head in the sand and becoming a sheeple - not good for scientific advancement. Just because SOME people think that the megaliths were made by aliens or whatever doesn't invalidate the true mystery of their existence.
Posted: 10/9/2011 9:41:39 AM
|Interesting stuff and great posts thanks all|
I do have to say our ancestors were amazing, it is humbling to investigate their accomplishments and stand in awe of what they left behind. I wonder what hasn't survived, how much we could have learned from them.
I think it's noteworthy that at some point seeing our ancestors as less intelligent than ourselves was a function of ego... and it fit in nicely with an early understanding of evolution - but it's obviously inaccurate.
Arrogance seems to be a particular weakness of humans lol
One aside - I think it's entirely possible that civilization could go back father than we now suspect - I will leave my mind open to that possibility considering that over vast amounts of time there could be very little left of any culture. Anything pre-ice age (the last one) could be gone forever, or buried deep under the oceans. I think it's entirely possible that some of the great ancient civilizations could possibly be remnants of that. It's just speculation though unless we find evidence.
Posted: 10/9/2011 9:55:02 AM
|There is no question in my mind the hard drive has been wiped clean many times. These past cultures knew this too perhaps. The people who built these structures were far more advanced than us I suspect.|
Posted: 10/9/2011 12:42:02 PM
|We make a fuss, because SOME of those things DO look harder to do than how you describe. For myself, I want to know how they did it, in order to better understand them as people, and thereby to better appreciate the rest of my planet-load of critters.|
Posted: 10/9/2011 2:15:47 PM
|"Can you give an example of a megalithic structure , were tools, ramp's, raft's, lever's, men , rope, horses/camels wouldn't of been sufficient to build it ?"|
Posted: 10/9/2011 3:56:33 PM
MYSELF... I have used the surface impact trick to move things too heavy for myself to move. I was able to move a 1200lb mill just by pushing it by having an impact hammer banging on its base.
I have never bothered to see just how much weight could be moved using that way but yes it is real and works (also the reason heavy machines are bolted down in factories or they walk all over the place all on their own when they vibrate.... I am sorry if you don't buy it but that does not change the fact that it works.. just as any machinist)
Posted: 10/9/2011 4:16:36 PM
|I didn't say they couldn't be done that way Tall, I was answering your earlier post, which asked why some people remark about it more than you do. That is why I remark about those structures.|
As for myself, I can't figure out how the South Americans managed to accomplish what THEY did megalithically.
Maybe YOU know how to carve boulders weighing many tons, in such a way that they fit, not just very well, but PERFECTLY with other giant boulders that are NOT cut in a regular fashion (lots of differently curving sides and surfaces), and then wrestle those multi- ton boulders into place on the SIDE of a sheer mountain cliff... using only what you listed....but I sure can't.
Hence my TREMENDOUS admiration, and my REMARKING about being impressed.
I am an historian when it comes to all of this. I want to know how they did it, not try to pretend that they COULDN'T have done it without technology that they didn't have available. Knowing how it was accomplished would not only be just plain fascinating, and potentially useful to us today, but it would also give us additional insight into these people who's first hand histories are not available to us.
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