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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?      Home login  
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 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 1
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?Page 1 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
If you're liberal, can you point to the morally superior things of that philosophy? Same with conservatives.

What are some of the towering achievements of modern liberal philosophy?
What are some of the towering achievements of modern conservative philosophy?

Has your country been better under a liberal or a conservative government?

Bumps! May the best philosophy win!

Go Teams!
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 2
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:07:57 PM
Neither of these things has a specific definition, accepted both by the people who so label themselves, and by the people who label them.

While it has been a popular "sport" amongst some self-described "conservatives" to attack anyone they don't like, and label them as "liberals," the only consistent commonality there, is the self-blinding hostility.

Back in the 70's, I saw the same sort of fad going the other direction.

So I would say that "morality" doesn't seem to have any special relationship to either label. People who claim to represent both sides, CLAIM to be personally morally superior to others. But since morality itself is something that very few people agree on, arguing that this or that GROUP of people is more moral than another is really impossible to LOGICALLY argue.

If you want to pursue this, please provide at least your PERSONAL definition of each "ism." Without that, you wont even be able to argue apples versus oranges.

And besides, shouldn't this be filed under "philosophy?"
 peppermint petunias
Joined: 9/2/2009
Msg: 3
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:12:10 PM
Politics and morality.............
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 4
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:22:36 PM
Seems designed to be a needlessly polarizing and argumentative thread.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 5
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:31:30 PM
^^^Geez, can hardly sait to see the bans coming to this thread. This will be worse than any man bashing or women bashing thread we've ever seen, if it makes it past page 1.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 6
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:36:37 PM
Geez, Igor. Usually your posts are very balanced...



While it has been a popular "sport" amongst some self-described "conservatives" to attack anyone they don't like, and label them as "liberals," the only consistent commonality there, is the self-blinding hostility.


Seriously? You don't think liberals do the exact same thing? Puleeeze.

Here...let me fix it for you:
While it has been a popular "sport" amongst some self-described "conservatives and liberals" to attack anyone they don't like, and label them as "idiots," the only consistent commonality there, is the self-blinding hostility
 getanet
Joined: 6/10/2011
Msg: 7
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 2:37:43 PM
Two party politics work well to divide the masses and pit us against one another. It gives the corrupt politicians and those who back them financially an excellent smokescreen to continue on while the masses bicker amongst themselves.

I have abandoned hope of seeing any form of "representative government" under this facade of "choice" that is two party politics. The financiers hedge their bets on who will win just like everything else. Nothing changes even when the "party in power" supposedly does.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

"Teams."
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 8
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 3:40:52 PM
Paul K...



1. Define morality
2.Define Liberalism
3. Define Conservatism


Once you've done that, then and only then, can you have this discussion.

Paul K


Paul, I disagree that a discussion cannot be had --on this forum anyway-- without specifically defining the terms. These terms to those on this forum mean different things to each and outside the forum the terms mean many different things to millions.

Each poster here knows what he or she means by "liberalism" and "conservatism". These are not scientific terms.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 9
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 3:45:56 PM
halfa....



Seems designed to be a needlessly polarizing and argumentative thread.


Now, I would expect somebody's grandmother to say that, but this is a forum where ideas are discussed, no? Ideas sometimes are polar opposites. It happens in the real world, but maybe not around grandma's table for cookies.

It was not "designed" to do anything but start a discussion. Just ask grandma.
 hoopsnhikes
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 10
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 3:59:21 PM
^^^

You should have just titled the thread "Is Conservatism Morally Inferior or Stupid?", then you could have avoided all of this.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 11
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 4:08:33 PM
hoop...



You should have just titled the thread "Is Conservatism Morally Inferior or Stupid?", then you could have avoided all of this.


Okay, an apparent representative of liberals lightly weighs in, as only he can do.

Will this rank as the best, most literate and well thought out liberal statement, or will there be more and better? Or worse?

Will give you that one hoopy! A bit of thread welfare.

 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 12
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 4:23:44 PM
trinity: if you read my post more carefully, you would have seen that I DID report seeing the other side doing the same thing. As it happens, right NOW, the self-described conservative folks are making the most noise. Back in the 70's, most of what I heard was self-righteous posturing from the left. Hence my post, as stated. Self-righteous posturing and pejorative nonsense is just as bad for rational debate, no matter who it comes from.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for the OP to define his terms. Without definitions of starting points, this will just be an aimless rah-rah fest, at best.

One other thing to consider: usually, movements and things like them, don't actually HAVE morality as functional part of them. The adherents are the ones that have to, through their actions in support of the movement or idea, show themselves to be moral or not.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 13
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 4:45:58 PM
One other thing to consider: usually, movements and things like them, don't actually HAVE morality as functional part of them. The adherents are the ones that have to, through their actions in support of the movement or idea, show themselves to be moral or not.

You know, I considered making the same point myself. Then I realized that was wrong. Back when the terms were being defined in 19th century England, the arguments were all about morality. So, at heart, both conservatism and liberalism are moral positions.

But nobody here is going to be able to compose an argument like Mill or Hume, so I just see no end of ugliness in this thread.

Edit:

hoop...



You should have just titled the thread "Is Conservatism Morally Inferior or Stupid?", then you could have avoided all of this.


Okay, an apparent representative of liberals lightly weighs in, as only he can do.

Will this rank as the best, most literate and well thought out liberal statement, or will there be more and better? Or worse?

Will give you that one hoopy! A bit of thread welfare.

Actually the post you quoted is from a guy on the right side of the political spectrum. I'm deliberately not commenting on it - just want to make sure things are accurate.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 14
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 4:56:24 PM

As it happens, right NOW, the self-described conservative folks are making the most noise


I would have to disagree with that part. At least as far as the forums go.

I should have said:
You don't think the liberals STILL do the exact same thing?


Okay, an apparent representative of liberals lightly weighs in, as only he can do.


A quick look at his posting history shows his post to be "tongue-in-cheek". He is a conservative.

OT. Obviously both sides of the political spectrum consider themselves morally superior. The reasons are stated on a regular basis.
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 15
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 5:04:50 PM
Well Morality really has nothing to do with it, in my voting past I have voted Liberal and other times I have voted Conservative depending on the candidate and their political platform, when I didn't agree with either of these parties agendas I voted for NDP. I find it fascinating that in the US some view it as you have to be one or the other 100% of the time, that there is no middle ground. I would guess that there are alot of people who are in the middle liking ideas/ideologies proposed by both parties and disliking other aspects. I've even had posters insult me for being a Democrat, then didn't have much to say when I told them I was Canadian. To me there isn't much difference between either party or philosophy, they both push their own agendas, they both have allowed the financial market to implode on itself, they both have passed laws and bills that benefit the political agendas over the best interests of the country, same greed just a different label.
 vnufall
Joined: 3/6/2011
Msg: 16
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 5:08:03 PM
i like the word compromise....in dealing with liberal and conservative issues. i don't think its happening nearly enough in the past 10 years. have to think whats best for americans because no matter which side is supposedly more moral, the rights of all americans must be protected. polarization does nothing to move us forward as a nation. arguing who is better or more moral is useless, ultimately both sides will fail if they can't work together.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 17
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 5:27:56 PM
Part of the problem too, both with this discussion, and with the more general clash between "liberalism" and "conservatism," when the subject of morality arises, each side has tended to choose different areas and applications of the idea of morality to stake their arguments upon.

Back in the 70's, I remember the liberal side as talking a lot about social equality. This was a moral issue to them. The opposition at that time, which was claimed to be "conservative," would as often as not claim that the higher MORAL value, wasn't equality and respect for others, but loyalty to national interests. In graphic terms, it was as though each side raced up different hills, stabbed a flag into the ground, and declared that THEY held the high ground, and that the opposition was beneath them.

After spending some time trying to find my own place amongst each side, I concluded finally that both of them were working so hard to declare the other to be wrong, that they weren't even managing to perform any good work themselves, in support of their claimed ideals.

Some liberal groups, for example, were so intent on being equal, that they began to insist that everyone dress and behave alike to insure it. Thus they discarded freedom in the name of freedom. At the same time, some conservative groups were saying essentially the exact same thing, differing only in the details of how everyone should dress and behave, in order to prove that they were "free" of what eventually came to be called "political correctness." Again, discarding freedom in the name of freedom.
As someone above said, they both CLAIMED moral superiority, while actively destroying the underpinnings of their own claimed beliefs.

In the end, it wasn't about morality at all, it was about self-righteousness. Those two things are NOT synonymous.

By the way, Halftime, just as the political parties in THIS country have over time, taken over each others list of beliefs, so the definition of Liberalism and Conservatism has evolved over time. Trying to base this on the 19th C. definitions would make it all even more pointless than it likely will be, since those versions of conservatism and liberalism no longer apply or exist.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 18
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 5:41:42 PM
Yes definitely a polarizing thread, designed to invite a bash fest. Given the OP, we already know how he wll use the large spoon to churn the pot.

I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean that conservatism does not have it's place in society or government. The best of all worlds in "normal" times(times with minimum crisis or conflict) is a mixture of both. Conservative ideas and ideals tempered by the liberals and vice versa.

As for moral, neither has or will have the right bragging rights or high ground to claim that mantel. Because you are religious, but would despise people who are different, because of their race, creed, color or sexual predisposition, because you believe that's what God or your version of a higher power wants, or was laid out in some book of thousands of years ago, does not make you more moral or even moral. Not believing in that book doesn't make you more moral either.

Morality can only be defined by what(me, you, we) believe is right and wrong, or better right from wrong.

Has your country been better under a liberal or a conservative government? Strange question. Before trying to answer it, can you show me one that was better unequivicly better under one or the other?

Take a step back, and think. Because of the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles, many would say that Germany was better off under Hitler, after the few years of starvation and inflation that followed the treaty. I doubt they would reach that same conclusion when they count the 50 million dead that resulted with world war 2.

Countries have always had conservatives and liberals, usually drawn along the lines of the haves and have nots. At different times, each has led it's nations to greatness and failures.

In my view there should be no "Go Teams!" but a resolution to work together to bring the best concepts and laws for what is best for the majority of the people.

But since life is what it is, the OP what he is, and POF and it's bashfests are what they are, have at it folks.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 19
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 6:56:21 PM
Saharam...


Talk about a wholesale effort to cause conflict on a thread. No good can come from this.


I disagree. What "good" comes from any of these forums? Who is the arbitrator of the "good"? Is there a "good" matrix? A "good" baseline? A "good" forum template?

Adults who have railed either one way or the other on these forums against either liberals or conservatives should be able to now just describe why their position is morally superior, because both claim the position over and over. This is not a "cut and paste" thread. It's a think thread.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 20
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 7:32:24 PM
You still haven't defined your terms though.

A Canadian conservative will be much farther left than an American liberal.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 21
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 8:12:09 PM
Morally superior? Sure if you want to base an argument on pure emotion. I may not agree with the other side but I certainly would never grant myself moral superiority.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 22
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 8:49:14 PM
I believe that having a mixture of both ideologies in honestly debated counterbalance is morally superior to a pure ideology moving forward unchallenged. It's sort of a "Yin-Yang" thing.

But make no mistake-- I am making no mention of parties here, nor did the OP.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 23
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 8:59:28 PM
Modern Liberalism, as it's thought of today, is a continuation of the cultural movement called " The Enlightenment " or the " Age of Reason ".
The Enlightenment, is generally considered to have started in the 1600's and stressed the superiority of human reason over blind faith and obedience to authority.

All the founding fathers of our country were very much adherents to the precepts of The Enlightenment and human reason, though they were naturally imperfect in it's practice. They all believed in the equality of men but fell short in the practice of equality.

One of the greatest achievements of liberalism is in fact, the Constitution of the United States, particularly the Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights is a very liberal document.

I really can't think of any great achievement in the name of Conservatism.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 24
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 9:50:28 PM
Yes, I'm perfectly willing to say without reservation.....
Equality, reason, and justice are all morally superior to blind faith, blind obedience to authority, and the subservience of lower classes to nobility.

Equality, reason and equal justice are liberal ideas and they are morally superior.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 25
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/25/2011 9:56:13 PM
nipoleon...



Modern Liberalism, as it's thought of today, is a continuation of the cultural movement called " The Enlightenment " or the " Age of Reason ".
The Enlightenment, is generally considered to have started in the 1600's and stressed the superiority of human reason over blind faith and obedience to authority.


Modern liberalism, as it has been understood for the last 50 years at least, is the exact inversion of reason and scepticism. Liberal thought today bases its actions and conclusions on emotion over reason and submission over independence. Liberal identification usually finds no fault in further submission to government involvement and control (in the name of entitlements and services) in daily life; and, when confronted with obvious failures, such as the Great Society, and dismal education results, has no response but emotion. "We care; it does not matter the results. It's the caring that counts". That is not reason. It is not enlightenment and it is actually a return to the feudal Dark Ages which "The Enlightenment" helped to leave in the ash heap of history.
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