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 BobHaro
Joined: 3/3/2011
Msg: 3
Guns in private hands ?Page 1 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Oh FFS!!! Look criminals can get hold of guns as easy as you can fart...what are we supposed to stop them with...Harsh words. Some people live in airy fairy land where nothing ever goes wrong and PC plod always catches the crook before they do anything remotely naughty.

In truth if somebody comes for you...what you gonna do? call for PC plod in the (remote) hope he turns up in some kind of timely fashion...or reach for that gun and tell that somebody right where they can go...

Oh sorry no, what gun....you're dead!

Welcome to the real world.


Bob.
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 5
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 3:49:12 AM

Oh FFS!!! Look criminals can get hold of guns as easy as you can fart...what are we supposed to stop them with...Harsh words.
Where do you get that conclusion from? Trust me, its not that easy to get a gun...despite whatever world you live in.

These private gun owners? What is the point of being allowed to own a gun at home, when all you do is shoot it at a Firearms Range? Maybe a better idea would be to only be allowed to lease the gun, but it has to remain on site at the Range.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 7
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 4:19:54 AM
This is a bit of a straw man arguement really

The world trafficking in weapons is IMMENSE, in value its not that much smaller than the drugs market and therefore the type of people who want to use guns for nefarious purposes dont have any problems getting hold of them

A couple of years ago I went along as part of the back up for a friend making such a purchase from a local drug dealer of a 9mm automatic pistol with two magazines, 200 rounds of ammunition with a hair trigger, was combat blacked and had an extended and threaded barrel (but the silencers were an additional purchase if needed) and the whole thing still stinking of oil and brand new was £1200 with the serial number removed. The same person had access to cheaper guns either new or second hand as well as ammunition and other items like night sight goggles, thermal imaging cameras, flak jackets military/police grade pepper spray and tazers and assault weapons such as automatic shotguns and semi automatic assault rifles


The world drive to reduce the amount of privately owned guns doesnt actually reduce crime or the amount of gun crime. Infact I think switzerland has one of the highest amounts of private gun ownership levels in the world per capita but one of the lowest amounts of gun related crime too

One of the "dangers" of private gun ownership from a political perspective however is that if a population was ever to become SO pissed off with the way the politicians were doing their job or the political system itself they WOULD have an ability to effect change by force if necessary. But an unarmed population is not only at the whim of armed criminals, but would also be more easily beaten down by armed police or the military if they ever dared to stand up for what was right and just


And THAT is what I think really drives the pressure to stop private gun ownership
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 9
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 8:07:52 AM
The world trafficking in weapons is IMMENSE, in value its not that much smaller than the drugs market and therefore the type of people who want to use guns for nefarious purposes dont have any problems getting hold of them
We are talking about UK Gun Laws, not world...therefore, the illicit UK drug market V UK trafficking in weapons is not even a relative comparison.

As for your story about being part of the 'back up' for a friend buying a gun from a drug dealer, I do not believe it for one minute. Buying guns is done similar to buying drugs(in weight), it's done quietly. People buy on trust and meet discreetly, they will not turn up mob handed drawing attention to themselves with a load of guys as back up.

If you were caught in possession of a firearm(unloaded) you would be looking at around 5 years in prison? That drug dealer in that story would be probably looking at double that for what he was selling your friend...sorry but that story sounds very far fetched to me.

BTW why would you go with a 'friend' and knowingly be involved in purchasing a gun? Guns that are sold with ammunition are meant to hurt or even kill people.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 11
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 8:51:56 AM
Whitey, I think youre quite a bit out of touch

The amount of not just drug dealers but just plain old criminals that own or even carry guns nowadays is a LOT higher than a few years ago. Which is kind of inescapeable from how many shootings occur not done by "international criminals" but by ordinary unemployed nobodies in inner city areas

The idea that guns are sold by "wieght" is also a bit bizarre, they are and always have been sold by the unit price and a gloch 19 or 26 will cost more than a colt 9mm so weight isnt a constituent part of the pricing unless you were weighing them in for scrap

As for the "why" both people are acquaintences and the pistol was being bought for defence rather than anything criminal

But as I said, you can obtain fire arms far more easily than most people realise EVEN in the UK, infact its the replacement ammunition that is harder to purchase than guns themselves from that kind of source

And as for the price PMSL, seriously

That was overpriced not "cheap"

The gun in question retails brand new for around $500 US with two magazines and 100 rounds of fed ammo if you shopped around and thats brand new and legally bought over the counter (with a healthy profit for the shop included and sales tax). Which equates to what in GBP? £350-400?

And its not as if the US is even the cheapest place TO buy guns, locally some of the ex russion states are painfully cheap and not exactly "hot" on tracking or restrictions which is actually where that particular one orgininated from

So even your idea of pricing is so off whack its surreal
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 13
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:05:37 AM
Buying guns is done similar to buying drugs(in weight), it's done quietly. What it means is that it is done the same as buying drugs in weight IE in kilo's rather than small deals. Quietly. I could 'believe' that your mate got a gun for self defence if he was buying a gun that had been used before for a couple of hundred quid. You were basically making out that he was buying an assassins gun off an armourer. Mob handed. PMSL

As for me being out of touch? I think that you will find that I know a considerable amount about crime. In my job it pays to be clued up and know what I am talking about around criminality.


With the right skill, you can actually convert replica weapons into working firearms by yourself.
I think if you were an experienced engineer with a workable tool shop, had the right replica then yes, maybe? Not some school kid that does it in his dinner hour in the school workshop. Someones been watching too much Topboy.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 14
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:11:17 AM
^^^^ have to agree with the replica thing though, its a bit of an urban myth often claimed by people who have a replica or a decommissioned firearm and just "claim" its been recomissioned

When people have (amaterishly) tries to restore one to working condition they have a very high tendency to either explode or rire eratically due to a lack of barrelling

________________________________________________________

A beretta composite with a 15 round mag and pre threaded barrel would be an "assassins" gun, not a flippin colt with its piddly standard mag and size

infact if you know "sooo much" about guns somebody who "used" a gun regularly and for any type of living would be more inclined to go for a medium pull two stage trigger surely and something that would far more readily fit in a shoulder rig or angle holster

The colt isnt really a carry piece by any stretch of the imagination
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 15
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:22:18 AM

such a purchase from a local drug dealer of a 9mm automatic pistol with two magazines, 200 rounds of ammunition with a hair trigger, was combat blacked and had an extended and threaded barrel (but the silencers were an additional purchase if needed) and the whole thing still stinking of oil and brand new was £1200 with the serial number removed.
Sounds like you are biggin this gun up to be an untraceable weapon that can be bought with a silencer, to commit a crime rather that self protection. Never mentioned that it was a Colt...not that I know much about guns, never claimed that I do, other than they kill people.
 Virgo0072
Joined: 1/15/2009
Msg: 16
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:28:31 AM
From my cold dead hands as Mr Heston once put it...
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 17
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Posted: 12/8/2011 9:36:34 AM
Not "biggin up" just describing it

The lack of a serial number isnt negotiable which I would guess is to make it harder to track of intercepted, the extended barrel is normally an optional extra on those, not the standard spec. So it reflects on the price as its a third party upgrade in most countries and not a legally permissable one

The choice of black or silver is purely a preference. But it wasnt an option he was given either, that was just what arrived to fit the order not tailor made to a specific spec

Infact I'd recommended a revolver as theyre far more reliable but theyre not as popular so theyre harder to get
 badge73
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 20
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Posted: 12/8/2011 10:14:21 AM
i dont think there are enough guns around to be honest, wonder what life would be if everyone owned them? i dare say for the first couple of years the murder rate would jump but would eventually go down and probably most crime would as well ....

its the old saying a gun does not kill anyone, its the person behind it that does the killing hence cant stand the plastic gangsters who would wave around a piece to "prove how brave they are" which in itself is a bit of a contradiction, same as those who try and rule by fear with them, after all if you think your brave enough to handle a piece then join up and walk down the street in another country where there are people who would not think twice about having it out with you.

its the same with a few who shoot at targets etc who think they are special, targets dont fire back!!
 BobHaro
Joined: 3/3/2011
Msg: 21
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 10:44:52 AM
Oh dear some of us are living in a cosseted world methinks. Over my life I've sometimes lived in 'rough' areas where there were shootings, stabbings, muggings...You name it. Ok I was never a target basically because I did not have 'victim' tattooed on my forehead. But for me its not just about guns, never has been...It's just one thing after another taken from us without a 'by your leave' . ooh those 'dangerous' fireworks, Maroons, or shells for example taken from us (even people like me with training in large display fireworks) because some stupid untrained numbnut teacher stuck his head over a 14" mortar tube as it went off...dead obviously...a 300mph+ 14" projectile has that kind of effect even on the terminally stupid.

Doesn't matter how much you ban things people will still die and the world will never be a fluffy place.

One person with a gun could have stopped Derrick Bird in his tracks
One person with a gun could have stopped Michael Ryan in his tracks

One person without a gun just gets shot to fook.

If you want to do something useful, a better target would be immigration...Guns or not...this country is rapidly sinking under the weight of an ever increasing population.


Bob.
 BobHaro
Joined: 3/3/2011
Msg: 25
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 10:42:33 PM
Yep....and even our 'replica' guns have to be painted some stupid colour like bright yellow by law...You just know the Americans are completely laughing their nuts off at us....and who can blame them.

Brits will take and put up with any old sh1te that the government hands out.



Bob.
 Gesticulate
Joined: 10/21/2011
Msg: 31
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Posted: 1/1/2012 7:03:49 PM
So owning a gun means you are capable of being a mass murderer ..
Owning a car has the same implications if this is the train of thought going on here ..
If I had a gun and was in a life threatening situation would I shoot to kill, dam right I would and if it was a man the first shot would be in the nuts, followed by both his knee caps ..
 try1more
Joined: 12/16/2007
Msg: 36
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Posted: 1/2/2012 7:07:43 AM
"so your argument is fatuous in the extreme.
Anything is capable of being used as a weapon, that was not the thrust of the discussion,"

nothing wrong with gesticulate's argument.
with the exception of waging war guns are not made solely to run around killing people.
it could just as easily be argued that an axe is made for killing, albeit trees.
you're not permitted to drive a car unless you can show you can do so safely.
a gun is a tool to do a job how it's used is down to the person that has it.
it could also be argued that since the authorities are obviously unable to get their choices right, then everyone should be permitted to have one to protect themselves.
finally an mot only means that the car "was" safe "when" it was tested.
so the same could apply to a person, many things could render a competent person incompetent.

pauline:
i would like to agree but the uk does not have the history the us does.
we dont have conscription for a start.
if that was permitted now i think the town would be like the wild west on a friday/saturday night :-)
 Gesticulate
Joined: 10/21/2011
Msg: 46
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Posted: 1/3/2012 12:08:00 PM

so your argument is fatuous in the extreme.


No it is a comparison..

I worked on ch1 TOA for many years in Birmingham, I had a driver stabbed to death whilst on a call, 99% of cabbies do carry protection...

Seems the only people who should be scared of someone owning a gun is those who have something to be scared of ..

Target practice is a great sport, not all of us who own a gun kill animals you know, however if I found someone in my house who was armed and had intent I would shoot without hesitation ..
My house, my rules, suck it up...
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 47
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Posted: 1/4/2012 4:25:25 AM
In some ways, I feel that the people who have an interest in owning weapons, and specifically guns, are probably the people who I would least wish to have them.
(If that makes sense...?)

So I would prefer that no-one has them.
I wouldn't want to live in a country like the USA., with their gun laws.

As far as "protecting my property" goes; I would ask what "price" is a human life..?
If someone steals/attempts to steal, my DVD player, I can buy another for £25.
I think I'd take the same view, regardless of "value", and my anger.
If I'd had a gun, there may have been times when I might have used it, and regretted it later.

That's why I don't think they should be in anyone's home, other than in exceptional circumstances.
I'm capable of defending myself without a gun, and have done so, in the past.

Killing/ shooting someone to protect property, seems little different to me, to killing/shooting someone to obtain property.

Guns make killing people too easy.
I spent a bit of time in the USA., and it didn't even make the front pages anymore.
JMO

 HeathV2012
Joined: 10/11/2010
Msg: 54
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Posted: 4/3/2012 4:24:40 AM
I don't believe in keeping arms from civilians an armed person has a way to level the playing field. There have been many cases of accidental shooting and other such things yes but also many cases where people who wouldn't have been able to defend themselves survived because of a gun. I read a lot of things about the use of guns in self defense cases. I live in America and im not sure how well the laws work in other countries but with our bad border security bans on private gun ownership would be as fruitful as our war on drugs. Many guns go to Mexico and Drugs come here but if a ban were to be placed on us this would quickly create a back flow right into the hands of criminals. Regardless in this country a ban would do little good disarming anyone but legal gun owners. Locks only do so much my house is locked many of my guns are as well but someone determined enough could still get them. You may say all the more reason to get rid of private ownership but well there are also cases of cops having their guns stolen from their homes and cars. I own many guns as do my friends and relatives out of all the guns in this city shootings are limited and mainly only occur between gang members but stabbings are far more common. Im glad we still have the right to keep tools for our protection. In the end police aren't going to be there to do anything more than clean up the mess. You are responsible for the protection of you and your family.

The History of Gun Control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pKasF6l3y0

The Truth About the Right to Carry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNUqtkXTQ8
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 55
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Posted: 4/3/2012 4:48:32 AM
[
Im glad we still have the right to keep tools for our protection.

Ironic that you should 'bump' this on a day when there's been yet another mass shooting, at a college in the USA. A "Christian" College, at that.
It's good to see "proof" that "religion is the source of our morality".

My answer is "No thanks", I prefer our laws to yours.
I hope you follow the gun laws more strictly than you follow the forum rules.

 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 57
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Posted: 4/3/2012 5:20:36 AM
"Small bore" eh....?


Once again we have an incident where a nutter loses control but thankfully they are few and far between. I suppose there will be more gun controls again which only mean legitimate holders will driven underground.


First of all, if they're "driven underground", then they won't be "legitimate holders" will they...?
And secondly, it's funny how all these supposed "few and far between" incidents have been "nutters" who were also licensed gun holders.

As I said earlier in the thread, the fact that people WANT them alone, should be cause for concern IMO.
All the people arguing FOR guns, seem to be very angry, and opinionated individuals.
They all seem to say that they'd happily shoot someone, if the situation arose, (reading back through the thread, and having seen similar discussions, on other forums)
I think the authorities should carefully check through all of the forum postings, of anyone applying for a license...

 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 59
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Posted: 4/3/2012 7:13:57 AM
Some Gun Fun! (not to be taken too seriously though a tad Americano)!

1. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
3. Gun control is not about guns, it's about control.
4. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
5. If you don't know your rights you don't have any.
6. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
7. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.
8. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
9. You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stay alive.
10. Assault is a behaviour, not a device.
11. Criminals love gun control -- it makes their jobs safer.
12. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
13. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
14. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.
15. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.
 bhawk01
Joined: 12/24/2011
Msg: 61
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 11:08:21 AM
I have read a lot of impartial reports into gun crime, there has been no correlation between legal possession of guns and gun crime. Remember, its piss easy to get a gun on the black market.
Guns dont need restricting, we need to educate about guns and gun safety more than anything.
A gun is merely a tool, like anything, funnily enough there is a thread below this one about someone killing someone with a hammer....ive seen several stories in the past about hammer attacks...should we ban hammers?
Or kitchen knives? we should start making every home license themselves to control a kitchen knife!

If someone wants to kill someone they will do it, regardless of not having access to a gun
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 63
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Posted: 4/3/2012 11:58:33 AM

Who many people (including on here) would kill someone if they knew that they could 100% get away with it?
For me to actually kill someone they would have to do something very bad to me or my family, but yes I would kill someone if I knew I could get away with it...if I felt that death was justified?
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 64
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Posted: 4/3/2012 12:34:02 PM

Guns dont need restricting, we need to educate about guns and gun safety more than anything.
A gun is merely a tool, like anything, funnily enough there is a thread below this one about someone killing someone with a hammer....ive seen several stories in the past about hammer attacks...should we ban hammers?
Or kitchen knives? we should start making every home license themselves to control a kitchen knife!

I don't know if you've ever tried to knock a nail in, with a gun, but it's not easy, despite cowboy films, which pretend otherwise.
Similarly, shooting off slices of cheese, or buttering a slice of bread, with a gun, is very messy.
Yes, a gun is a "mere tool", designed for only one "job".
I can't remember the last mass murder that was committed with either a hammer, or a knife.
And yet we seem to already be becoming inured to such stories, about gun massacres, like the one today.
Edit:
Also, there are no "Knife clubs", where you go to practice your stabbing.


It's human nature to want to harm things, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be any need for anti-violence laws.

I'm not entirely clear on your philosophy here.
We also have laws about child-molestation, for the same reason.
We agree our laws by some sort of general consensus, in a democracy. (The opposition to the new 'snooping laws' makes it seem unlikely to be passed..?)
If the majority of people all wanted to walk about with guns, like they can in the USA., we'd have those laws too.

I think there are already too many guns here now, I wouldn't want any more.
I hope they tighten the laws further, as I find some of the comments, by advocates for slacker gun laws, on various forums, to be slightly disturbing, with many people displaying obvious 'bravado', and slightly too much relish, for the prospect of using one, on another human, for comfort.
 BobHaro
Joined: 3/3/2011
Msg: 65
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 4/3/2012 5:07:22 PM
I don't want to bring every thread round to immigration as you so eloquently put it. But as my opinion, it does have merit.

Still if you want to leave the door wide open, be my guest, as long as they can stay at your place.



Bob.
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