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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.      Home login  
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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 1
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.Page 1 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
There are 21 states now with the "Stand Your Ground Law" a product of the NRA/ALEC states laws mill. Though we may never know the full story of what went so wrong that night that unarmed 140 pound teenager Trayvon was shot and killed by an armed 200 pound man, it illustrates that the latitude in justifiable homicide has stretched to the point of what appears that people getting by with murder with . It's a matter of the killer's word against the dead person now. "Justifiable" homicides have nearly tripled in Florida since passage of the law. The police have the power of judgment on the spot to release the shooter from the process of the court system, and judges can toss out homicide cases at will because of the law. It's not unreasonable to think that Zimmerman could have bloodied his own nose in the aftermath of the shooting and smeared blood on himself to "justify" the deed and dead.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-case-stand_n_1372105.html

And of course, the mob joins in to try, convict and justify the homicide without benefit of the facts of the case.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-a-little-thug-ghetto-monkey-fox-news-readers-set-new-high-water-mark-for-racism/
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 2
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/22/2012 3:56:32 PM

it illustrates that the latitude in justifiable homicide has stretched to the point of


Actually, no it doesn't. It wont, until the case is adjudicated. Right now, it is an incident, a tragedy, and the cause of an investigation. We wont know whether what you said applies, until the case has run it's course through the courts.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 3
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/22/2012 4:02:46 PM
What we do know with certainty:

The victim was walking back from the store with a bag of Skittles. His killer followed him in a car, then got out and chased him with a gun. After the police showed up, he wasn't charged.

Self defence used to be an affirmative defence. When the circumstances are less than absolute, it used to be up to the person who killed to prove that s/he was acting in self defence.

Clearly the lack of any charge or investigation at the time of the shooting would indicate that this demonstrates the way in which a Stand Your Ground law is prone to abuse.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 4
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/22/2012 4:10:47 PM
Again, you are citing the asserted facts as claimed to date. The decision about whether that law will mean that that perpetrator will escape responsibility for his horrible actions has not been decided.

I'm not saying anything either way about the case. So far, I have a very low OPINION of the admitted killer. I also do not like the SOUND of the "stand your ground" law. However, whether or not it all has the meaning you are suggesting for it now, HAS YET TO BE DETERMINED.

Wait for the case to be decided, before you deliver your opinions about that yet-to-be-announced decision.

You can only talk at this point, about what you imagine the outcome will be, and getting angry about that imagined result.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 5
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 6:43:32 AM
Does this sound like a kid who would be a threat to an armed 200 pound man?
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/2708960_p2/trayvon-martin-a-typical-teen.html

This case is indicative of a broken law that encourages vigilanteism and was opposed by state and local prosecutors, law enforcement agencies and the Governor.
http://news.yahoo.com/florida-man-lives-tell-shoot-first-horror-051159162.html

Closer to home, if such a law existed here in 1988, it's quite possible that Frank Casteel would be walking free.
http://www.jcs-group.com/enigma/crimes/casteel.html

I was caretaker/renter on the 183 acre parcel in front of what was then Casteel's property, including the entrance to the Helican Road. At the same time I was caretaking another 150 acres, including my 20 on this mountain 5 miles away as the crow flies. On both properties, despite being posted for no tresspassing, often armed 4 wheel and dirt bike riders would routinely invade the area, shooting, drinking, dumping trash, tearing up fences and gates and trashing out trails and driveways. I understand how Casteel and family went off the deep end and killed those guys. He and his wife were bullied and subject to death threats and property destruction. Pam O'Neal in the story, is a friend of mine who also experienced the same on here two properties.

After repeatedly fixing gates and fences, I will admit that my anger at times was such that I was tempted a few times during dozens of confrontations, usually armed ones. It is not that difficult to difuse those confrontations, particularly when you are the one with a side arm they know you know where they live and the law is on your side. Given today's "castle laws" and their enhancements like the Florida law, justifiable homicide will only become more commonplace, with the word of the one with the gun standing alive, as enough testimony to keep him out of jail.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 6
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 11:02:33 AM
I don't know exactly what this law says. Laws about deadly force in self-defense have usually applied more to incidents inside a house. The traditional rule there was that you had to give way if possible before using deadly force. Even then you had to reasonably believe you or someone else in the house was in danger of death or gross bodily harm. And it would be a lot easier for a 90-pound old lady confronting a 200-pound young man to show that belief was reasonable than it would for a large man confronting a boy he could easily have overpowered.

Some states changed that rule so that you only had to give way as far as the first wall behind you, even if it had an opening you could pass through. They usually extended the rule to apply at your place of work also. These "stand your ground" laws apparently have extended it much further, so that it applies in open outdoor spaces. But this isn't a case of an armed man who sees a large person rush out of the shadows toward him as he's walking across the parking lot to his car one night.

The worst part about this for Zimmerman, I think, is that he chased Martin in the first place. Chasing someone down is a pretty unusual thing to do if you believe he's an immediate threat to your safety. And nothing suggests Zimmerman, an armed man, at first had any reason to be afraid of Martin. Lots of ordinary teenagers wear hooded sweatshirts.

Even if the fact Martin was holding a bag and looking around didn't give him a good reason to believe Martin had committed any crime, or that he was planning to. He could easily have been just what he was--a kid coming back from the corner store with some candy for the second half of the game he was watching on TV at his father's house.

There don't seem to be any witnesses, and Zimmerman hasn't been arrested or charged with a crime. I wonder why the fact Zimmerman chased Martin and shot him to death so far from the car he got out of was not enough, by itself, to give the police probable cause to arrest him.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 7
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 11:52:37 AM
The bill was written by the NRA, distributed to the state legislatures by ALEC, to reduce gun owner liability in certain murder cases. It broadens the use of deadly force by citizens when “he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.” and “to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony...”. The ambiguity of what constitutes these conditions, added with the assumption of innocence by the shooter based on the shooters sole testimony against a dead person leaves the door wide open to abuse and vigilanteeism. It extends "stand your ground" to pursuit of someone you think might harm you.

This was not Zimmerman's ground. Yes, hispanic folks can be prejudiced against black kids. Fox is doing the fuzzy trick on this intoning Zimmerman as victim because as Geraldo put it, the hoodie attire invited such a reaction (dressed to be raped sort of argument), and Hannity declared it a "perfect storm" tragedy because black kids in hoodies had burglarized the neighborhood in recent years. There is no justification for Zimmerman violating police orders to cease and desist, to be running around as an armed vigilante given his history of paranoia and false reports, and for him to not be in jail going through the judicical system. I have little doubt that if the roles were reversed, young Martin would have been immediately incarcerated and remain there pending trial.

Hoodies are functional outerware. Most of the folks in the construction trades wear them during the cold/cool months. It was light rain and 63 at the time of the murder.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 8
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 12:39:26 PM
This is clearly not an example of the intent of "Stand your ground". The law does not provide for pursuing and attacking someone.


That happened Wednesday in an unrelated case. A Miami judge dismissed a second-degree murder case, citing the Stand Your Ground law and ruling that 25-year-old Greyston Garcia's testimony about self-defense was credible. The Miami Herald reported that Garcia was charged after chasing down and stabbing to death a 26-year-old suspected burglar in January.


I don't understand this one at all. How can a judge consider chasing down & stabbing someone as "standing your ground"? I have to question if there is perhaps more to this case than what has been stated here.


Florida Department of Law Enforcement statistics show that before the law was enacted in 2005, there were about 13 justified killings each year by citizens from 2000 to 2005. Between 2006 and 2010, the average has risen to 36 justified killings each year.


I think this statement is a bit misleading. Wouldn't the number of justified killings go up specifically because this law classifies more killings as justified?
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 9
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 1:36:41 PM
Florida's Stand Your Ground Law

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[14]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.


776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection

(1) does not apply if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or

(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

(5) As used in this section, the term:

(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.

(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.

(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Florida



So what George Zimmerman did was actually not apart of the Stand Your Ground law. He wasn't being threaten under 776.012 in which prevented an imminent death or great bodily harm to him.

Zimmerman was told to stop chasing Martin in the 911 calls and Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator and continued to chase him anyhow. Zimmerman had no proof beyond an reasonable doubt to suspect that Martin was doing something that was bodily threatening or criminally threatening for that matter to him or the community. Lastly, neighbourhood watch groups aren't cops. So why was he running around with a gun acting like one... Zimmerman, should be charged with Third Degree Murder, what he did was negligent.


 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 10
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 1:49:40 PM

I do find it strange that the media seems to always profile cases that have racial undertones, and yet in my home town of philly there's black on black murder almost everyday, yet it never reaches national coverage.

Actually, the first stories I saw about this weren't about the incident itself, but about the lack of coverage it was receiving. This story took a long time to get on the national stage. It was the outrage over it in some quarters that finally made it a national story.

The bare facts seem to be: a self-appointed watchman saw a black teenager in his neighbourhood; he followed him in his car and tried to get the police to come because, well, there was a black teenager in his neighbourhood; he decided the police weren't going to respond, so he got out of his vehicle and chased him with a gun; the teenager was shot and killed by the guy pursuing him; the police decided that no further action nor investigation was required. Just those facts alone would seem to be pretty weird.
 rpl55
Joined: 3/22/2009
Msg: 11
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 1:53:39 PM
Here's what the person who wrote the "stand your ground" law has to say about the incident. Not looking good for Zimmerman.



The authors of Florida's controversial "stand your ground" self-defense law say George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for shooting Trayvon Martin, reports the Miami Herald.

"He has no protection under my law," former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.

Florida's law, called "stand your ground" by supporters and "shoot first" by critics, was passed in 2005 and permits residents to use deadly force if they "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Traditionally, self-defense laws did not typically extend beyond a person's home, but the Florida law, and at least 20 more passed across the country since them, allows a resident to "meet force with force" almost anywhere, including the street or a bar.

Zimmerman, 28, reportedly admitted to police that he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on the evening of February 26. He was released without being charged after claiming he killed the boy in self-defense. But 911 recordings released over the weekend suggest that Zimmerman, who has a concealed weapons permit and volunteered in an apparently informal neighborhood watch program, pursued Martin, despite being told police were on their way.

It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/


RPL
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 12
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 2:36:26 PM

How can a judge consider chasing down & stabbing someone as "standing your ground"?


There are cases that establish the rule that pursuing and using force on a person may be justified self-defense, if that person has already attacked you and hasn't given up. For all you can know, he's running out to his car to get a gun, so he can finish what he started on you with a knife. It's similar to the reasoning that in war, it's perfectly fair to pursue and attack an enemy as long as he is armed.
 Worbug
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 13
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 2:59:12 PM
As far as I am concerned, once Al Sharpton is involved, any and all credibility is gone. I do not know what happened in this case and I am afraid we never will.

The bias of the media is very clear here. They keep call Zimmerman a White male when he is not to perpetuate the White on black Angle. They are blasting ANY negative history about him and having painted him in the worst possible image as possible. Is he really all that, we do not know, but those images are firmly painted in everyone’s mindset now.

As for Trayvon Martin, nothing has been said about the alleged victom’s past what so ever, which I find disturbing. Martin is being potrayed as innocent as can be. AS posted above, his face book page has been closed, which to me is obviously damage control, if not it would have not been deleted, it would have become a tribute page, but more than likely the page was littered with gangbang communications that would not favor Martin. Does Martin have any criminal record? Was he a Gang Banger? Who knows one way or the other it hasn’t been reported, further proving the bias of the media

I am by NO MEANS advocating the shooting of an innocent person. I guess I should not be surpised by the number of posters in this thread that speak as if they know all the details by what the media has reported.

With all the facts going back and forth, I see no possible way for a fair trial. Everyone has been polarized about this case by the media. I do see Zimmerman most likely being found guilty no matter what the evidence will produce. They almost have to find him guilty at this point, if not, all he11 will breakout.

I am not advocating that Zimmerman is innocent or was justified or guilty, but I am also not convinced that Martin is an innocent victim either.

As for the whole gang bang thing. People are completely fed up with all the gang activity. If you want to be a gang banger, or act and dress like a gang banger, guess what, you are going to get treated like a gang banger, and deservingly so. If Martin is proved to have been a Gang Banger when all is figured out, then I say Good Riddance. and if the reported facts about Zimmerman are proven to be true, the he needs to fry.

There are always three sides to every story, in this case, Zimmermans, Martin's Family and friends, and the TRUTH.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 14
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 3:31:39 PM
Worburg...There is a missing piece of the story, that of the young dead man.
From all accounts of friends, classmates and family, Trayvon was a sweet guy, low key, dedicated student, athlete, and spent spare time going to Aviation School with the dream of being a pilot, hardly gang banger material. Been watching Geraldo today?

Beyond the horrendous tragedy of this case playing out, is the larger tragedy of "castle laws" spreading across the country and people taking advantage of the chasm of loopholes to commit homicide with impunity. The laws were once such, that if you shot someone on the porch, you had to drag them inside to be exhonerated for self defense. Now the laws has expanded the "castle" or ground that one "stands" to include businessess, your car, rental properties, and in this case, the public commons. These laws have opened the doors for vigilantees and spurned lovers among others to claim immunity under these laws, with no prospect of the dead telling their side of the story.

These laws give liscense to kill for people who are unstable, racist, paranoid, and gun happy among others. Trick or treaters who TP trees would be targeted, or homeless windshield washer folks, to lost people stopping to ask for directions in the wrong neighborhood. The concept of "threat" is subjective, arbitrary and wide open for abuse. There is also the issue cited by law enforcement officials opposed to the laws that such a wild west culture of castle laws would lead to more innocent people being hit by wildly fired shots. We have plenty of that already with turf wars, drunk hunters, and other idiots. To codify such behavior into law will only lead to the loss of more innocent life at the hands of idiots.

 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 15
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 5:33:57 PM

That some of you will seek to excuse this based on some convienent law, that allows for the wanton murder of someone else, DISGUSTS ME!!


You know...I read back through the posts in this thread. Up until your post #29 (that I quoted), not a single poster was excusing this shooter. Every single person who posted felt his actions were criminal. Apparently, my reading comprehension differs greatly from yours.

Enlighten me.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 16
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 6:04:22 PM

I quoted the poster I have issue with. You may see it differently. Anyone who offers defense to this despicable person, has a problem with right and wrong.
Ok...well, let's review:

Msg 7 (by the same poster you quoted)



if this Guard did kill the kid just because he could or because the kid was Black, then he should receive the full penality of the law, death/electric chair

Msg 12 (by the same poster you quoted)



But, if it is found that Zimmerman killed this kid, just because of his skin color then he needs to fry in the electric chair.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 17
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 8:28:15 PM
It is pretty disgusting to blame the victim of a shooting.

We do know he went to store to buy Skittles; bought Skittles and was walking back; he was followed by a guy who decided that a black child walking in his neighbourhood was a criminal act. The boy was subsequently shot and killed.

To decide that the child was to blame for his own death without even a hint of evidence of that is racist on the face of it.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 18
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 8:40:11 PM
No, they don't.

We know from the killer's own words that he was following the child in his car. We know from the victim's own words to others that he was going to the store for Skittles. The fact that he was walking back from the store with Skittles would seem to indicate that he did just that.

And yeah, you are blaming the victim (still):"And gawd forbid that a poor Black kid may be anything but innocent! pffft! "
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 19
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 9:01:32 PM
My understanding was that this was a gated community.Trespassing is rather dangerous for starters.The young man was reported as talking on his phone with his hand inside his waistband?

Fondling himself?
Making a rude gesture to Zimmerman?
Pretending that he was armed?

A confrontation ensued.Maybe the kid thought he could easily punch fat white boy's lights out?Most likely he was casing the place.No he didn't deserve to die but respecting people and property is rather fundamental to a civilized society....people get fed up.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 20
Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/23/2012 9:07:26 PM
The boy was talking on a cell phone. That's one hand taken care off. He was carrying Skittles and a drink. Unless he had three hands, where is the hand he had "inside his waistband"?

Fondling himself? WTF?!?!? Casing the place? WTF??? He was walking back from the store!!

You know, there are websites for racists like you. Why don't you go play there. You're supposed to be a grownup to be on a dating website. And not just chronologically.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 21
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/24/2012 1:20:40 AM

Most likely he was casing the place


I haven't heard there was any evidence of that. Most likely he was on his way back to watch the second half of the NBA All-Star game at his dad's house.


respecting people and property is rather fundamental to a civilized society


Agreed. And part of that is taking it very seriously when an armed man chases an unarmed teenager and shoots him dead. I suspect this will involve more than just the Florida law and the local police before it's over. Zimmerman, the police, or both might also be charged with federal crimes. I don't pretend to know all the facts of this case, but chasing an unarmed person down the street and shooting him to death doesn't sound anything like reasonable self-defense.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 22
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/24/2012 1:28:42 AM
You know, there are websites for racists like you. Why don't you go play there. You're supposed to be a grownup to be on a dating website. And not just chronologically


LOL tell that to the women that get messaged by guys on here daily, that act like a bunch of immature boys. Dating sites are filled with those types of guys and give the rest of us decent and mature guys a bad name..
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 23
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/24/2012 5:40:48 AM
Thank you Steelcity for actually posting the law itself, so that we can see what it actually says (as opposed to what panicky people fear it says), and thanks rpl for posting what I also heard on the news, that the authors of the law themselves ALSO say that it doesn't apply here.

This is what I was getting at from the beginning. The incident itself ended when Zimmerman killed the young man. The legal mechanisms are in motion now, trying to find out what really did and didn't happen.

I note that there are people saying things about the situation, not from the known facts, or even from the published allegations. Saying that this kid was "just another burglar in a hoody casing potential houses to rob," shows only the prejudices of the person who is writing, since there has been no such evidence presented. By the way, I also own a "hoody." It's a common way to keep your head and neck warm around here in Virginia.

This thread is ultimately about justice, and whether or not the Florida Stand Your Ground law interferes with that, or supports it, or has no effect. As I said before, the answer to this is the same as for any other law: it is tested in it's APPLICATION by the courts.

That someone tries to use a law to excuse their bad behavior, does not in itself prove that the law is wrong, or badly written. Every single day, there is someone in a courtroom, trying in vain to use some law as an escape clause for themselves, and they are being told dryly that they can't do what they want, and that the law doesn't apply.

So far, it looks as though that is likely to happen here as well, but we have to wait for the trial, if we want to have a serious discussion about the thread title theme.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 24
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/24/2012 8:48:51 AM

The legal mechanisms are in motion now, trying to find out what really did and didn't happen.

So far, it looks as though that is likely to happen here as well, but we have to wait for the trial, if we want to have a serious discussion about the thread title theme.


So is there going to be a trial? Has someone been arrested?

I think we had a thread in here at one time (may still exist) discussing racism. I can't remember all of the questions asked.

It seems to me, based on what is being said by some of the posters, that racism is a factor here. Would racism have come into question if this had been a "black on black" situation? The reason I ask is because here in Columbus we really do have "black on black" crime that is indeed racist but does not get the national press that this particular situation has received.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 25
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Trayvon Martin-Stand Your Ground Laws abuse.
Posted: 3/24/2012 9:16:01 AM
I see that former Governor Jeb Bush has added his opinion that the "Stand Your Ground" law doesn't apply to this case. Again, hearkening back to the original post starting this, we have another vote to the effect that the "stand your ground" law has no bearing in this.

One important thing I have NOT heard, which would have strong application here, is whether or not his understanding of the "stand" law applied, BEFORE he chased and killed this kid. Perhaps a case might be made, if Zimmerman was influenced to think he had a blank check to shoot (because of his ignorance about the law), then the State could be liable for allowing the general belief to be held that this is what the law referred to.

And yes, of course there is going to be a trial. Whether it will be criminal or civil has yet to be determined. I would personally make a small bet that before the month is out, that Zimmerman will be officially charged with a crime. I'm not a lawyer, so that's just an opinion.
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