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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Justifiable Homicide?      Home login  
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 windchymes
Joined: 11/29/2008
Msg: 2
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Justifiable Homicide?Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Well, it is Texas..... lol

Good question. I don't know if it could be called justified, but I could call it pretty darn forgiveable, given the circumstances, because I'd probably have done the same. I think it could definitely be called an act of rage and passion.

I can see this made into an episode of Law & Order SVU.
 SpringsDiver
Joined: 7/2/2011
Msg: 4
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:49:38 AM
Due to the fact that the father allegedly caught the other man "in the act" of abusing his daughter, I agree that he was justified in stopping that action. The fact that the man died from the injuries sustained does not bode well for the father. However, I think he should be given every reasonable benefit of the doubt due to what had to be a very emotional state he was in.
 _TALL_IQ2_
Joined: 2/10/2010
Msg: 5
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 9:09:23 AM
I feel pretty sympathetic toward this father. I don’t think he should go to jail, though he did kill someone.
What should his punishment be or should he go unpunished?


None of us were there as witnesses or to see the evidence.
The amount of and duration of force used was apparently very excessive, and since the only other "witness" was four,
I feel that man should be indicted and may be convicted of manslaughter with about 1-3 years in jail.

Flying into a rage and killing someone unarmed and not at risk of anyone's life is a crime and no circumstances can be allowed to justify killing another that way.
If one person is allowed to get a pass from jail for that, then others may see that as a way to kill someone they just don't like and claim the dead person was "molesting" a child..
 RushLuv
Joined: 4/16/2009
Msg: 6
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 9:45:22 AM
Completely justifiable. That man did what MOST parents would do by protecting their children even if the assaliant did die.

I'm not a parent, but I do have young nieces and nephews that are children.
 Boricua Papi
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 8
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 10:38:07 AM
If he did it on purpose, thinking and calculating the outcome it is homicide. If he did it defending his child is self defense and might and only might be involuntarily manslaughter. He did it with his own hands not a weapon so he should not be charged for homicide. Most People understand a father.
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 9
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 10:51:55 AM
dang right it was justifable..............i'd do my best to do the same thing to someone caught molesting ANY child
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 10
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 11:30:53 AM
I don't know how anyone can make this call without knowing all the relevant facts in detail. That includes the details of how self-defense works under Texas' criminal laws. There have been lots of cases down through the years where a criminal defendant was guilty as sin, in moral terms, but was such a sympathetic figure the jury wouldn't convict him.

This is something like a case in Jamestown, California years ago. The mother of a boy who had been molested shot and killed the man who did it right in the courthouse, when he made the mistake of smirking at her. I don't remember what happened to her, but I don't think she was punished very severely. The boy later became a hulking thug and committed some kind of violent crime himself, I think.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 11
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 1:45:37 PM
No he should not go to jail
but he should loose his job
police have to held to a higher standard then civilians,no society can have police killing people!
 colt8301
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 12
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 2:20:36 PM

While I am totally against vigilantism, I feel pretty sympathetic toward this father. I don’t think he should go to jail, though he did kill someone.
What should his punishment be or should he go unpunished?


To me the lowest form of criminal is the pedophile/killer of children, etc. Good riddance.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 13
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 4:13:55 PM
no jail, this is not a real crime, it is a very normal reaction
but, police have to have self control, so he should only loose his job
cops, can't be allowed to just kill people, the whole justice system would fall apart!
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 15
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 5:22:29 PM
I would think because it was a father protecting his own minor child in his own home........I'd darn sure hope so! I can't honestly see a jury sending this father to prison.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 16
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 5:31:02 PM
While I would also find this heinous. I still do not think, it sends a positive message. Killing another human being, no matter how low that person maybe, is probably not a great idea to embrace. That is why we have courts and the law, to deal with meting out punishment. I can foresee this leading to problems at some point in time. When case law can be cited, as an example of a defense, who knows where that may lead..

Case in point:

"We were told, among other things, that if we are attacked or our home is broken into and we kill the man/men and lets say he was walking out the door and you shot him outside of the house, to drag him in, no matter that it can be proved you drug him, drag him in anyway. We would be told many things to help us in court."

I've always said Texas is more than a little crazy, to me this post proves that! So what you have said is that Texas lawmen, don't uphold the law, but demonstrate ways to obfuscate it. In stead of investigating, they will merely accept that you took advantage of their tips, on how to violate the law, to get off.

What happens when a man visits a woman, and tells her the relationship is over? She doesn't want to hear it, so she shoots him in the back, and drags him back in, and says he wanted to attack her. She for her part cites the training and instruction that the police gave her, as part of her defense. Not so far fetched as we have seen, many times in many cases.

When we reduce law, to a vigilante type of justice, we are no better than the animals, that should be convicted of crimes like this. I don't doubt, he deserved a beating and worse, but death at the hands of someone, strikes me as over the top.

IMO
 laughingatliberals
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 17
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 5:41:50 PM

When we reduce law, to a vigilante type of justice, we are no better than the animals, that should be convicted of crimes like this. I don't doubt, he deserved a beating and worse, but death at the hands of someone, strikes me as over the top.


Had this been my daughter in my house they would have been scraping brain matter off my walls. The raging judge handgun makes quite a mess when you shoot someone in the head.

This is not vigilante justice but a case of a father protecting his child and his home.

Just one less child molester to house and feed..........I hope he burns in HELL!
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 20
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 7:18:13 PM
"for prisoners to have better benefits than I do"

Now who's fault is that? You are responsible for what you have in life, if your not happy with it, change it.

"because we have so many soft on crime liberals"

How do you know I am soft on crime? You don't even know me. Who says liberals are any which way on anything? It's just a mindset you have, that allows you to vent your frustration.

"Liberals don't want to make the punishment fit the crime"

See, right there you go off the rails with your argument. Objectively, he didn't kill the child, he "attempted" to sexually abuse here, BIG difference, than the price he paid. BUT it's an emotional issue, and one most people cannot reconcile, through their emotional reaction.

"have to pay millions of dollars per criminal"

It costs a little less than $31,000 per person per year to imprison a person, according to a national average. That would mean you would have to imprison some one for 32 years, before the first million was spent. So in order to spend "millions", loosely speaking we'll start at 2, it would take 64 years, before that was the case. A little exagerated now don't ya think?

"This father is a hero"

I always like to think things through before making assertions. I guess you and the others, think differently. First, when my daughters were young, I was always careful, about who I allowed around them. This man admits the person he killed was a "casual acquiantence" not exactly who I would allow around my daughter. Next the story says the little girl wandered into the house, another thing my children when small could never do, they would go wandering anywhere I wasn't able to see them. Maybe that's a Texas thing, let your kids go whereever they wnt, regardless of danger. I mean site unseen, they could pick up one of those famous guns you guys leave all about and shit.

I am not saying he didn't have a right to be outraged, to be angry in the extreme. BUT AGAIN, tha's why we have police, courts and prisons. For justice to be done. Anything else, is just vented anger, left unchecked and no form or substance to law and order...

Then again, like all people like you...you probably think Trayvon deserved to die. Cause he took a walk and a wacko followed him...wonder how you'd feel if your son or daughter wandered into the sights of a nutjob, who thought they did something wrong.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 21
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 7:40:12 PM
"I am not saying he didn't have a right to be outraged, to be angry in the extreme. BUT AGAIN, tha's why we have police, courts and prisons. For justice to be done. Anything else, is just vented anger, left unchecked and no form or substance to law and order"

Being outraged isn't a RIGHT it's a HUMAN reaction! I'd hope that my dad would have reacted with rage "in the heat of passion" (that's what the term was created for, situations just like this) and done what was needed to protect me. We can theorize about this til the cows come home, but unless you're be IN that type of situation, you don't know how you'd react. In the few seconds it took to see his daughter being harmed, the instinct is for protection, not thinking wow maybe I should call the police. The justice system recognizes that people act in the heat of passion or rather REact to a threat, it's instinctual. You don't stop and weigh out your options, for God's sake. He wasn't venting anger he was reacting to his FATHERLY INSTINCTS to protect his child and STOP the attacker. Citizens do have rights to self protection and especially with minor children, who are being attacked by an adult, to act in the protection of others. So don't go spew carpola about vented anger and that's what the justice system is for.

I'm not going to go into the details, but my (late) husband and I were attacked in our home, I hit the perp in the head a couple of times with a baseball bat until he fled. And yeah, you betcha, it'd have taken the whole police force to pry me off him, I'd still be whacking him in the head. So don't go telling me about calling the police, the baseball bat was closer than the damn phone! Anyone who wouldn't have done the same would need to go have their head examined. I know what it's like I'VE BEEN THERE have you?

This isn't about the Trayvon case so please don't take this off topic. Calling someone a whacko tends to affect your credibility but it IS an insight into how you think.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 22
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:25:51 PM
Alleged is a technical legal term. The alleged criminal allegedly.......until proven or disproven in a court of law. I'm not sure of the technicalities, but I believe it may be alleged even if the father is not charged. They can't convict the perpetrator, but it is certainly part of the evidence that will be presented should the father be charged. Media is bound to use the term alledged in any stories published pre-trial. Since charges have NOT been filed, the state hasn't decided TO charge or WHAT the charges will be. All of that is not published until and when charges are filed. That's how it works. The news doesn't say "the state is considering or thinking about charging........." really? The father cannot be charged with murder, the circumstances don't meet the legal definition/standard. Ignorance of the criminal justice system is rampant, as has been so amply displayed by some posters on this thread. I don't hold myself out to be an expert, buy having been through a murder investigation and trial I know a lot more than I would ever wish to.

My knowledge is from first hand experience not what I read somewhere.
 7iron
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 23
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:40:50 PM
Hell I'm not even an attorney and I could get this man off based on temporary insanity. A trial would be a complete waste of taxpayer money.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 24
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 9:52:28 PM
I never expected my opinion to be popular with the crowd. I can not really say, what I would do confronted with the same scenario.

"Being outraged isn't a RIGHT it's a HUMAN reaction!"

That is the exact point I am trying to make. We all have feelings, we all react to stressors in the way we do. We have enacted laws to govern us. That is what seperates us from animals, the use of reason. You may react one way, someone else another, we utilize laws to govern our behavior, so that we rise above the very animals that we have in our midst.

I'm sorry if my rhetoric or tone upsets you. My points are still valid. Why have laws, if we can dispose of them in times of passion? When one poster tells me, the very people we employ to enforce these laws, tells her how to skirt them, I have a problem with that. I get that emotionally, it is very comforting to say, let him kill him, and more power to him. On a logical plane, we are supposed to use the justice system we set up, or why bother having one?

As for Trayvon, maybe I was in error to use a charged case such as that. My point lost on most was that emotionally charged situations, are never better when dealt with in an emotional state.

You say I lose credibility, I say what difference does it make, when someone can choose to obfascate the law, by following pointers, from the very people employed to enforce the laws we enacted.

I have no idea of what you went through, in being attacked in your home. You have my sympathy, I still maintain, when we choose to bypass the very laws we agreed to, we become no better than the criminals we want to imprison.

You may choose to have a different opinion than I, but that doesn't mean my point is moot. It simply means many of you would rather have the rule of the mob, than the rule of justice. It makes for great movies, like Charles Bronson, made, but hardly is appicable, in normal society. What usually follows is when someone makes a mistake, and punishes the wrong person or someone who is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and pays a deadly price. Then we have to "oh that shouldn't have happened, my bad" kinda horsehsit that goes with "mob rules".

"I know what it's like I'VE BEEN THERE have you?"

Sorry, all I'll say is this, I'll stack up my experiences against yours 3 times over. Have you been shot? I have. Have you been threatened with a knife to your throat? I have. You can call me out on any number of things, I have had my share of near death experiences... still that doesn't mean anything, it means that was my lot in life, like all of us. That all of you can justify killing someone, means we view and value the justice system differently. Spare me the emotional justification of taking the law into your own hands.

You are reacting out of emotion, I out of logic, the difference may mean your life, in any number of circumstances.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 25
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 10:20:15 PM
Good for him. Assuming there's proof that the man was molesting this little girl, I'm all for him being dead and no more children will be harmed by him.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 26
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 1:00:09 AM
The Murder Enablers Act...aka Stand Your Ground...aka Castle Doctrine laws have shown an opposite effect of what they were purported to have accomplished.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/11/study-says-stand-your-ground-laws-increase-homicides/

From the study:


Results indicate that the prospect of facing additional self-defense does not deter crime. Specifically, we find no evidence of deterrence effects on burglary, robbery, or aggravated assault. Moreover, our estimates are sufficiently precise as to rule out meaningful deterrence effects.

In contrast, we find significant evidence that the laws increase homicides. Suggestive but inconclusive evidence indicates that castle doctrine laws increase the narrowly defined category of justifiable homicides by private citizens by 17 to 50 percent, which translates into as many as 50 additional justifiable homicides per year nationally due to castle doctrine. More significantly, we find the laws increase murder and manslaughter by a statistically significant 7 to 9 percent, which translates into an additional 500 to 700 homicides per year nationally across the states that adopted castle doctrine.

Thus, by lowering the expected costs associated with using lethal force, castle doctrine laws induce more of it. This increase in homicides could be due either to the increased use of lethal force in self-defense situations, or to the escalation of violence in otherwise non-lethal conflicts. We suspect that self-defense situations are unlikely to explain all of the increase, as we also find that murder alone is increased by a statistically significant 6 to 11 percent.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 28
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 4:41:25 AM
New NRA/ALEC laws are designed to relieve the murderer of the proof of guilt, since the dead person cannot tell their side of the story. Pretty sure that the majority of society has not suspended belief in the concept of innocence until proven guilty. "He said/she said" testimonies to third party vigilantes will often end up messy with no due process. The new laws open the floodgates for vigilanteism.

On the other hand, I wish we had had laws like these when I was a kid and could have shot the evil stepfather when I had the chance and motive and put him out of his misery to the lives of many afterwards. Likewise the dumbsh*t methhead who brandished a knife at me over a pay dispute. A lot of people have had moments where homocide would have been easy and justified, but the laws and consequences restrained them to find a more civilized resolution. Folks who have never killed people tend to romanticize the act and fail to understand how the aftermath affects all involved.

There should be a jury trial in any case of homocide to winnow out the facts, emotions, sanity, and events that led to a death. In the case of the OP, there could be a perception of molestation that did not exist. We just had a prominent figure in our community tried in the court of public opinion over alleged molestation of his granddaughter. When all the facts came out with eyewitness accounts, it was found that he was merely being affectionate and appropriate in his love for his grand daughter. Someone with an agenda saw one thing, and others saw something else, including the child. If indeed the OP kid was actually molested, it hardly helps with long term healing to add on the PTSD of watching someone get murdered.
 balrog67
Joined: 4/1/2012
Msg: 31
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 6:52:46 AM

Lastly, there was nothing "ALLEGED" about the molestation


You clearly are either clueless or you are claiming that you personally witnessed the alleged molestation. And yes, ALL crimes are alleged until they are proven. It's called 'America'. You should try it.

If I ever kill someone because I don't like them, I want you on my jury. I'll tell you the guy was molesting my daughter and you will of course automatically believe me and acquit me, because people NEVER lie to cover their asses, right??

Here's yer sign......
 _TALL_IQ2_
Joined: 2/10/2010
Msg: 32
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 7:01:00 AM
So if the intruder hadn't fled, do you think you would have beaten him after her was incapacitated, unconscious and you would have beaten him to death? Are you saying you're capable of deliberately ending life and would be justified in doing so, rather than protecting yourself and family from immediate danger? Only this, like many other protestations I've heard sounds like bravado.

That case was obviously very very different from the case presented in the OP. That is why rights to a trial by a jury of peers is in the U.S. Constitution/amendments.
When an intruder enters the home and attacks the residents, it IS a life-threatening event when residents ARE in fear for their life and any/all force IS justified against the aggressive intruder..
Almost every state has justifiable homicide laws also covering that particular circumstance and many police officers will advise homeowners to make sure the violent intruder IS inside the home before shooting him dead.

There have been a few cases of mistaken identity where the "intruder" turned out to be another resident or have other reason to be there,
but those have to be adjudicated on their specific evidential facts and circumstances..
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 34
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Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 8:39:38 AM
And if this man were to be convicted of murder and do serious prison time, would that be a reasonable reflection of what society feels is really murder under these circumstances?


I don't know, but that would certainly reflect what the jurors in his case thought was really murder. And in a criminal trial, only their opinion counts.


Shouldn't the laws reflect what the majority of society believes?


If they don't, the majority can change them so they do.


Is there any justification for a crime of passion given certain, very specific circumstances?


Of course there is. But assuming the prosecutors think this man committed some crime, I don't see how anyone here can know if the circumstances needed to justify that crime exist.


If you put this situation to a vote, nationwide, how do you think it would go: justifiable or not justifiable, given the circumstances?


Most crimes are strictly matters of state law. Those laws are made by the majority in *each state.* What people in other states think about them isn't relevant. In any event, they don't know the circumstances in enough detail to make an intelligent judgment about which laws were violated, if any.


The case of the father in the OP is somewhat different because of the moment of rage. A crime of passion. I don't know if there are legal grounds to get off a murder charge based on a crime of passion defense.


I don't know of any states where a killer can go free if the facts show he acted in the heat of passion. When that can be proven, its usual effect is to make it impossible to prove first-degree murder. As a rule, not much time is needed to form intent--there are cases where it was a little as a couple seconds. And facts that would prove the intent needed for a certain crime in one state might not prove it in another.

Defense of another may justify killing someone, but there's always the question why the killer couldn't have defended them by doing something less drastic--say incapacitating the person and holding him for the police.

Edit below:

Child molesters and rapists should face the death penalty along with murders


I understand the sentiment, and in some extreme cases I might even agree. But it doesn't really matter, because for several decades now, death penalties for crimes other than murder have been unconstitutional. Rape used to be a capital crime in some states.


 laughingatliberals
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 35
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 8:57:17 AM
It's too bad this pervert couldn't get a proper lynching, as a warning to other child molesters.


What he got was a much bigger deterrence than any trial could have done, It lets the diseased pieces of crap know if you do this that their life can be ended now.

Do you really think a trial scares them? They know they have a good chance of getting off and if not they will get out. They know they can do this again.

The father did what he should have done.

I have five grand children from 5 year old and down. Let someone come into my home and touch one of them in a inappropriate way I can promise they will need a body bag.

The people that think it is better for the child to be molested and will grow out of it..........Well that is just the sickest thing I ever heard.

Child molesters and rapists should face the death penalty along with murders. They have effectively ended their victims lives theirs should be ended also.
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