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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 tbicon
Joined: 5/6/2012
Msg: 1
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as deathPage 1 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
According to Albert Einstein, “the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? If so, I wish I could somehow tune in with my much younger self.
 colt8301
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 2
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/19/2012 3:04:06 PM

If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? If so, I wish I could somehow tune in with my much younger self.


lol, don't we all, tbicon.....don't we all.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 3
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History
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/19/2012 3:14:35 PM
No, because, even if time is an illusion, you did not inhabit the whole of the illusion. You existed at a certain point, and then did not at others.
 red_fir
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 4
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/20/2012 9:31:15 AM
Time is a construct to keep everything from occurring simultaneously.
Although Quantum theory denies it necessary stability.
If indeed its an artificial constriction, what more proof could be offered for a gracious cosmic benefactor?
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 5
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/20/2012 10:34:46 PM
So, there's no such thing as life, too?
 red_fir
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 6
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/20/2012 11:31:15 PM
That's the posit of Quantum theory, everything is in flux, as in the mind of a cosmic dreamer, and when the dreamer wakes this reality fades.
At a primal level time and matter are intertwined, and the observation of one denys (prohibits) the continued existence of the other.
Furthermore theorists suggest that during the process of observation of matter the observer exhibits predisposition towards continuity and therefore the matter "seen" is congruous with the earlier iteration seen, but.......without this predisposition nothing would be seen at all.
IE the observer creates reality on the fly via his expectations.

Which if true.......(and it seems like so much bullshit to me!) means that none of us are the dreamer, but the observed preservation of matter from the obliterated time/matter stream.

Try explaining this to your buddy's after a twelve pack! it'll be way more entertaining then!
 windchymes
Joined: 11/29/2008
Msg: 7
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History
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 6:20:42 AM
Maybe it's just my pea brain, but I never understood the concept of time being an entity of some sort. I look at "time" as a measurement, like mile markers along the highway.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 8
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 6:54:02 AM
People in the middle ages had this same concept: all time existed at the same time. It is one reason why their literature is riddled with anachronisms. Even some modern Christians have a similar concept--god isn't waiting in heaven for Judgement Day because god exists "outside" of time. Judgement Day has already happened. I suppose it is one way to validate predestination.

Theoretically and philosophically, I agree. Logically, I can't. Perhaps I am too locked into the physical.

So, how do I find out if Einstein and the Medievalists are right?

It sounds as if this is a "scientific" replacement of religion to deal with the fear of death.
 red_fir
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 9
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 8:51:19 AM

It sounds as if this is a "scientific" replacement of religion to deal with the fear of death.


One of the difficulties that science has is supporting its own claims, in this case the claim that you cant destroy energy, is irreconcilable with the end of life.
If indeed the energy does still exist then where has it been transferred to? and if not then why would the statement be treated as a truism for other instances?
 PROTON67
Joined: 4/26/2012
Msg: 10
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 9:21:21 AM
If you want to visit with your younger self, you'll have to do it in your memory. That's the only place the past exists. As far as the future goes, it doesn't exist at all. It won't exist until it becomes the present. I hate when I have to explain these things.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 11
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History
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 2:37:44 PM

in this case the claim that you cant destroy energy, is irreconcilable with the end of life.
If indeed the energy does still exist then where has it been transferred to?


Life is a cascade of biochemical reactions. Just because the network of processes stop doesn't mean the potential energy of the chemicals disappears. After death they remain and continue to react with each other but in an unregulated, damaging way. Being unable to re-boot is a factor of the local damage that is caused when the network goes down - a bit like a pile-up when the traffic lights go down. The mangled cars can't just resume their journey like nothing happened.
 wanderer1999
Joined: 2/10/2007
Msg: 12
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History
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 2:51:38 PM
By your argument there's no such thing as life either, especially since in the vast eternity of the history of the Universe, the time we spend alive is far, Far, FAR smaller than the time we spend dead/non-existant.

Or you could just say that within a 4 dimensional framework we are all things at all times, we are the infant, the child and the adult, alive and dead, wise and unwise, knowledgable and ignorant...

Or you could just focus on Living. :)
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 13
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 3:56:35 PM

...if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live?

He is speaking from a first person perspective.

So it is impossible for us to die in our own eyes, as we will never be aware that we are dead as time only exists when we are conscious of it.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 14
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 6:45:25 PM

If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference


I agree with message 3 (CressB); as it isn't an illusion because we are not permitted to gain access to the past & future realms, as a supernatural being would be able to do. Nor can we manipulate the present because it is very fleeting and whose flow is not within our control.
 tbicon
Joined: 5/6/2012
Msg: 15
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 3:40:30 PM
So DRH, you apparently know far more than the entire community of Theoretical Physicists and all of those experiments proving Einsteing right, that even our GPS units are calibrated on his relativity theories . . are apparently all conspiracies to confuse the rest of us?
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 7:43:45 PM
Time does exist. The problem is just that time isn't what we think it is. We tend to think of time a certain way which is incorrect. So discussions about time can be unproductive when it's not even understood properly in the first place.
 ExitingTheStage
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 17
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 8:13:14 PM
According to Albert Einstein, “the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? If so, I wish I could somehow tune in with my much younger self.


Since time does not exist and you cannot die..... work 70 hours a week for 10 years and give all your money to me
so that I can arrange for you to meet your younger self.

OK?
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 18
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/24/2012 10:36:27 AM

" ... If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? ... "


I'm sure that, for some people, this is exactly what happens. They hear 'voices'. Sometimes they do what the 'voices' tell them to do. Most of them probably remain undiagnosed.

Oh ... that thing about 'never dying' ... give it a little more time ... there's a surprise ending ...
 ExitingTheStage
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 19
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/24/2012 9:30:30 PM
Interesting.....

A debate that puts science on the hot seat.... for its' theoretical, mathematical theories that cannot be observed to actually prove.....

Seems .... once again.... that science begins to be as ..... unprovable as religion when you dig deep.

* * * * * *

Science wants to achieve immortality

What do you think?

Isn't that the ultimate goal of science?

To figure out how to cure death.

Is it too much?

Is it Frankensteinish?

Science states that we are the biochemical make up of our brain and the memories and experiences.

But if science discovers immortality.... how will they know whether its' balance of biochemistry will be the same?

The onset of pharmaceuticals for mental illnesses is staggering.

Will we just create zombie slaves that are immortal?
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 20
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History
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/25/2012 7:55:30 AM

I have found that questioning Einstein's theories can elicit the same kind of reaction from scientists as pointing out that Jesus was probably dark-skinned to a group of mormons. This I know because my whole family is mormon.



A debate that puts science on the hot seat.... for its' theoretical, mathematical theories that cannot be observed to actually prove.....


Ah great, *sighes*, Yet another thread degenerated into a battle between science and religion.

I can put this in real simple terms (I hate this ridiculous "ah ha, got ya" argument, which stems from nothing but ignorance of the subject material) The legitimacy of science is, in no way, what-so-ever, determined by the presence of any, as of yet, "unproven" theories, that may persist within any of the fields of study science has spawned or continues to foster. Science, as a methodology, is NOT an approach, desinged with the intention of proving theories, as it's measure of success. The ONLY thing that science is concerned with, is the confirmation of observable phenomena through the use of repeatable, objectively demonstrable, experiments . Whether or not theories are proved, is nothing more than a consequence of the observational confirmation of a given phenomenon (theoretical or other wise), which in effect renders theories to be considered completely irrelevant, outside of the initial, potential, to point us in the direction we should be looking to observe said phenomenon.

With any theories in science, the problem is alway observation; in that, we must literaly alter the way we view/observe the universe in order to perceive, or fail to perceive, any observation postulated by said theory. Whether that alteration be to the way we mentally approach our understanding the universe (such was the case with relativity) or to the way in which we physically interact with the universe; to which, a comparison between atomic theory and the electron microscope can be drawn; in that, the innovation of the electron microscope allowed us to physically verify the theory that all matter is composed of atoms. 

Atomic theory has been around for more than two thousand five hundred years. Proposed initially by Greek philosophers as "atomism". A brilliant set of philosophies that  were far ahead of their time but were lost to humanity, due to the gradual disillusion with the old world philosophies, in the ensuing religious ferver created in the wake of the revelations of aristotle. In this fashion, the continued meddling of religion, with things such as creationism, it may be another two thousand years, or more, before we are able to reconcile the disparities between large scale (relativity) and small scale (quantum mechanics).

 PlentyofThrowbacks:

 
theories that cannot be observed to actually prove.....


While it is true that there are indeed "theories..." Which predict supposed theoretical observable phenomenon "that cannot..." currently "be observed to actually prove.....". None-the-less this is completely irelivent. 

The "mass–energy equivalence" (E=mc 2ed) is an observation that was deduced from the theory of relativity, and can now be personally observed and confirmed by ANY person on the planet, in various ways (the more drematic of which would be, exploded nuclear bomb blasts or the power derived from a nuclear power plant). The fact that the theory of relativity seems to be in conflict, in some as-of-yet Indeterminable ways, with other observed and confirmed phenomenon, is completely irrelevant. Einstein's mass-energy equivalence demonstrably holds true as being repeatable and practically applicable to the physical universe, as do many other aspects of relativity, and the same goes for countless other observable phenomenon, that have been scrutinized by science. These phenomenon, have nothing to do with Einstein, and yet, form the majority of the foundation that human beings have built an incredibly advanced civilization  upon. This is the only relevant measure of the legitimacy of science: it functions exactly the way it expresses that it should. There is no false dilemmas, no undelivered promises, if you want to travel somewhere, it will take you there. If your sick it will do every thing in it's power (which is tangible and quite considerable) to heal you. If you are hungry it will feed you, Thirsty it will bring you water. If you are ignorant, it will teach you. And it exists as a mater of fact.
 red_fir
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 21
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/25/2012 8:42:33 AM

This is the only relevant measure of the legitimacy of science: it functions exactly the way it expresses that it should. There is no false dilemmas, no undelivered promises, if you want to travel somewhere, it will take you there. If your sick it will do every thing in it's power (which is tangible and quite considerable) to heal you. If you are hungry it will feed you, Thirsty it will bring you water. If you are ignorant, it will teach you. And it exists as a mater of fact.


So much burbling crap.

Science is a tool equally manipulable as religion, its frequently used to argue both side of the story and as susceptible to the corrosive influence of money and politics.
Science is rife with "scientists" attempting to prove their preconceived ideas and disprove someone else's for no better reason than ego fulfillment.
Faith in science is as misplaced as industrial grade silicone on a woman chest, unless you're the scientist trying to prove things to your own satisfaction.
 tbicon
Joined: 5/6/2012
Msg: 22
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/25/2012 11:19:07 AM
Unless you are a mathemetician or theoretical physicist, like abelein, you simply don't have the education or background to challenge einstein on any of his theories. Its like a politician challenging the concept of global warming when he doesn't even know what a cloud is ... But far more complicated than the climate.
 tbicon
Joined: 5/6/2012
Msg: 23
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/26/2012 9:20:17 AM
DRH, I tried, I really did, to see if I could figure out what you are talking about. But I can't. Maybe you are talking over my head, or maybe you are talking nonsense. Regardless, I thought you might find the following very interesting: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7318567/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/its-alberts-world-we-just-live-it/
 amusicluvr4u
Joined: 5/11/2012
Msg: 24
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History
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/28/2012 11:53:53 AM
Actually, it means that we are all illusions...dreams..a nightmare that God is having...and none of us actually exist. There is no you, and so no younger you.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 25
There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/28/2012 1:29:56 PM
1. I do not claim to fully understand either the Special or General Theories of Relativity. I do understand them *enough* to be able to observe that the original post and quite a few of the posts to this thread are just hopelessly confused.

2. It's not at all accurate that "many physicists believe" that "time does not exist." What I understand the overwhelming majority of physicists to believe, is that the ordinary language that we use to talk about time, with simple distinctions like "past", "present" and "future", does not accurately reflect the description of the world set out in the Special Theory of Relativity. This is what Einstein is-- poetically and metaphorically but not literally-- referring to when he mentions a "stubbornly persistent illusion".

3. It's logical nonsense to speak of the "past, present and future" as all existing "at the same time", because any given event is only "past" or "future" relative to some other event. That's presuming the very thing Special Relativity denies, the existence of a universal frame-of-reference for temporality.

The explanation is crude and to some degree inaccurate, because trying to express what is ultimately a logical and mathematical concept in ordinary language, is inherently imprecise, crude and metaphorical.

One event can only be called "simultaneous" with another event, if they cannot be in a direct cause-effect relationship. Such collections of events are perceived differently by different observers. The collection of events in causal relationship to one event can be objectively defined, but for each observer, "now" takes the form determined by the collection of events in causal relationship where-and-when the observer is. Every event of observation inherently has a different collection of events in causal relationship to where-and-when the observation event occurs.

Or something like that. And yes, this manner of presenting the concept engages in a great deal of seeming question-begging, as "cause-effect" is doing all of the heavy lifting. But in fairness, I suspect "cause-effect" is a linguistic artifact, in the sense that it drops out of the mathematical description, and all that it is intended to express is the "ordinality" of one event relative to another, or that one event is not another.

4. And you can tune in with your much younger self any time you want to, all you have to do is think about your childhood and remember. It is not "true" that all men who have ever lived "still" live, because the same confusion is just being buried in the "still".

All men who have ever lived still lived, and all men who ever will live, still will live. Just not at the same time or in the same place, unless we are talking about a very big place and time.

Women are different, however, physics does not apply to them.
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