Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools Whil      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 TheOgre
Joined: 7/6/2011
Msg: 1
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For FreePage 1 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
I was reading a news article concerning a kindergartner wearing a t-shirt of a college sports team from another state being forced to turn the shirt inside out as it violated the school dress code designed to prevent gang colors in the school. As I read through the comments the following jumped out at me and provoked a discussion within my mind:


...schools are goverment run. God has no place in government, or in school, period. If I am an athiest and I have kids in public school, I have a right for religion to NOT be present. Those who are religious can PAY to send their kids to PRIVATE RELIGIOUS school where their brains can be washed with all the #$%$ that they can afford to buy. But as far as public school goes, it will never be in the school, and it shouldn't. Period. Just like it shouldn't be in legislation, government or politics.

Posted by Mikey B on yahoo news, http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/oklahoma-youngster-forced-turn-michigan-shirt-inside-school-165451638--ncaaf.html


Now, my personal stance on this subject is that if a non-believer feels that those who want religion in school says they must pay for private schools to have it, which incidentally is and has been done for decades if not longer, then why can the shoe not be forced onto the other's foot and force them to pay to send their kids to private schools that do not mention religion? While I understand the need to be politically correct, many today, in my opinion, wish to have their personal views respected (religion in schools, for/against gay marriage, gambling, do/do not legalize drugs) while stating that they are discriminated against if the world doesn't recognize their minority as the majority get their rights trampled on.

I think this is a worthwhile discussion and would love to hear the opinions of others on this subject of where do we draw the line on respecting others while we bury our own personal beliefs?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 2
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 2:03:52 PM

Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free

Many states fund religious schools, though they do it an a round about way, by not giving money to the school but to the students in forms of scholarships.


Look up Voucher program, called Act 2.

It is a program set up for kids to go to religious schools on the governments dime, which most fundies thought was a great idea until they learned that it means all religious and muslims would be able to take advantage of this as well, showing they did not think their plan all the way through.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 3
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 2:09:26 PM
It is critical to this discussion that you get some basic things correct, which your post suggests that you have not.

First and foremost: the reason why we have Public Schools, funded by taxes/the State, is NOT because we need to or want to share the cost of education. This is the most commonly misunderstood/forgotten/never learned fact about public schooling that there is.

The reason why we have public-funded schools, is because the ENTIRE POPULATION benefits tremendously from having educated citizens. It doesn't matter whether you even HAVE children of your own or not, you benefit directly in your life, because everyone gets an education.

Second, the reasons why the United States does not support religious teachings in public schools, is NOT simply because a small group of people are offended by it. It is because EVERYONE'S personal freedoms are abridged, believers and nonbelievers alike, when Government gets into the Religion game.

Take those two basic facts together, and your suggestion that those who want no religion, be forced to pay for private schooling, can be seen to completely ignore them entirely.


Keeping public schools non-religious has NOTHING AT ALL to do with political correctness, and never has. Nor does "the majority trampling on the rights of the minority" apply, and nor does "majority rule" apply. Even if you lived in an area where 99.9% of the people all wanted a single religious format followed for their children's education, that would still not over-rule the basic reasons stated, and would not justify ignoring the ongoing need to have non-religious, publicly funded education.
 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 4
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 2:18:52 PM

Now, my personal stance on this subject is that if a non-believer feels that those who want religion in school says they must pay for private schools to have it, which incidentally is and has been done for decades if not longer, then why can the shoe not be forced onto the other's foot and force them to pay to send their kids to private schools that do not mention religion?


Why don't we let those on public assistance have private hospital rooms with catered meals and a side of liposuction? Because it's being paid for by public funding. We'll give you what we'll give you. If you don't like it...take your business elsewhere.

There are other private schools besides those that are religious. I went (and paid for) a private school that was supported by a religion and had to wear slacks, button down shirt and a tie. Took four years of required theology classes...attended a religious service daily...or at least on those days I was caught in the student center during them...and ate whatever they served for lunch. I knew all of these things before I wrote the check.

If you don't want to dress as a clown and sing show tunes in the hallway...find another school that does not require it. Or...attend one of the many government funded schools offered to you just for being you.
 TheOgre
Joined: 7/6/2011
Msg: 5
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 2:24:02 PM
Igor, my post is not ignoring things, it's the opening to a discussion. A specific quote of someone stating that those who want religion in school should pay for their kids to go to private schools, if that is true isn't it fair to say that those who do not want it should also be placed on the same level playing field?

What I'm asking is simple, if one group wants something and has to pay additional monies (above and beyond their taxes, and yes I recognize school vouchers exist but rarely cover the cost of a non-charter school, ie a true private school) to obtain that, such as sending their child to a school with the recognized religion of their choice, then is it not fair to say that those who want no religion of any type in school should then need to (pay above and beyond their taxes) for their children to attend those types of schools?

Why is it that those who want their children raised in an environment that coincided with their religious beliefs, regardless of the specific religion, must pay additionally on top of their taxes for that right while those who want no religion of any type in school get to scream it's a violation of their personal constitutional rights, have all semblances of it removed, and not have to pay an extra dime?
 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 6
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 2:45:22 PM

Igor, my post is not ignoring things, it's the opening to a discussion. A specific quote of someone stating that those who want religion in school should pay for their kids to go to private schools, if that is true isn't it fair to say that those who do not want it should also be placed on the same level playing field?


There are venues where people are free to express their religion without prejudice. Some names for them are churches, temples, mosques and so on. There is no shortage...and most do not charge a fee.

An education is mandated and provided by the government. Religion has nothing to do with government and has no place in it. It certainly should not be forced upon anyone. On the other hand...if there was political lobbying or calculus going on in church...I can take my ball home or to another church.


Why is it that those who want their children raised in an environment that coincided with their religious beliefs, regardless of the specific religion, must pay additionally on top of their taxes for that right while those who want no religion of any type in school get to scream it's a violation of their personal constitutional rights, have all semblances of it removed, and not have to pay an extra dime?


Again...everyone has a "choice". If you feel your child needs more of your religion than Church, Sunday School, retreats etc...then that is your "choice" to provide it to them. Take them to the 8:30 and the 11 o-clock service and MAKE them get involved with the church. You can even "choose" to send them to a private religious school. But...every entitlement comes with a cost. I'm not paying for double the homeroom teachers so kids can say Hail Mary for one minute. Save that for the final seconds of the ball game. If kids want to pray at school...they are free to pray at school. It's only meant for one set of ears and need not be public.

Any way you look at this...we are talking about the difference between "forcing" religion (and possibly a specific one) and providing it. We have the right to a religion, our religion or no religion.

Now...do you think they should "pray" from the Bible, the Quran, Torah...or did you have something else in mind for EVERYONE. I would not be cool with someone teaching a religion that contradict or undermines mine. Religion is too diverse to represent everyone in public school. At least not by 3:15 pm.
 TheOgre
Joined: 7/6/2011
Msg: 7
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 2:58:05 PM
So, if you do not want church involved in government, does this mean you don't use cash or coins? As they have "In God We Trust" on each and every one of them minted by the U.S. Government. Or is it convenient to ignore those words when it comes to obtaining the things that you want?

The issue here is that the Pledge of Allegiance was in schools from the beginning of U.S. history, banned only when those who took offense to the words "...under God..." Now, if those who took offense to those words had instead been forced to pay for private schools to not have to say/hear them, what would the outcome have been? Instead, those who did not want to hear/say them have forced those that do to pay extra to educate our children in a different school system.

How is this a country for all when anytime an individual can claim to be offended by something force the rest of us to change how we do things or spend more money to do it in private? I am offended when I see to men kiss, but I have to tolerate it in public if they choose to do it. But if I voice my opinion on this topic I am called a bigot, am I not?

As far as which religion is taught is a whole other can of worms. This country was founded the basis that we are free to worship the religion we choose in the manner we choose. Why is it that only atheism is the religion permitted to be taught in schools? Isn't that in and of itself a form of bigotry?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 8
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 3:07:16 PM
You clearly did not understand what I wrote at all. I said very carefully, that your opening question was, and I will add that your follow on questions are, completely invalid.

You are comparing unlike things.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

"only atheism is the religion permitted to be taught in schools?" This is yet ANOTHER false statement you have made. Atheism is NOT taught in any public school, except in the same way that all word definitions are.

You missed that I specifically said that this has NOTHING TO DO WITH SOMEONE BEING OFFENDED. That is another of your invalid argument points.

If you want to start a movement to put an end to carving "In God We Trust" on our coinage, in order to be more consistent, I would support that move, since I believe in consistency as well. Again, though it has nothing at all to do with your thread point.

Let me repeat: this is NOT about people being offended. This is about basic American principles of individual freedom, which you are suggesting be eliminated, without addressing the reasons why we established them to begin with.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 9
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 3:09:37 PM

So, if you do not want church involved in government, does this mean you don't use cash or coins? As they have "In God We Trust" on each and every one of them minted by the U.S. Government. Or is it convenient to ignore those words when it comes to obtaining the things that you want?

...and has that always been on US currency or was it something that was added in the late 50's.




As far as which religion is taught is a whole other can of worms. This country was founded the basis that we are free to worship the religion we choose in the manner we choose....

It was also founded on the guise that if you where black or female you did not count, but times change.




Why is it that only atheism is the religion permitted to be taught in schools? Isn't that in and of itself a form of bigotry?

Teaching something that contradicts religious text is not teaching atheism, it is teaching what is generally accepted as fact, though the curriculum in the US is one of the biggest jokes in the free world as it is pretty much controlled by religious groups in large states anyway, as they set the standards and force the publishers to follow suit.

Some good reading on the topic would be:

Howard Zinn "A People's History of the United States"
Gilbert T. Sewall "Textbooks: Where the Curriculum Meets the Child"
James W. Loewen "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong"
 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 10
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 3:19:05 PM
I'm sorry....I thought we were having a serious discussion.

I will only touch upon a few of the ridiculous.

I use cash, coins, checks, check and credit cards. Occasionally online payments. IF...I was offended by the word God on currency...I don't have to look at it and nobody is forcing me to recite "In God we trust" when I get my big gulp at the gas station.

You have somehow labeled me among those that are non religious and offended by the word "God". God, Jehova, Buda, Lord, Elohim, El Elyon,El Roi, El Shaddai, Adonai, Yahweh-jireh, Yahweh-rapha, Yahweh-mekoddishkem, Yahweh-shalom, Yahweh-sabaoth, Yahweh-raah, Yahweh-tsidken....I'm sure I left many out. I'm not offended by any of them will accept any legal tender bearing same.


Why is it that only atheism is the religion permitted to be taught in schools? Isn't that in and of itself a form of bigotry?


If atheism is a religion...then I lettered in NOT playing football and played air drums in the marching band.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 11
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/21/2012 4:46:06 PM

Why is it that only atheism is the religion permitted to be taught in schools? Isn't that in and of itself a form of bigotry?


Give me the names of schools, teachers, and textbooks that teach atheism--and don't say "evolution," either. I have religious friends (including my boyfriend) who is Christian but knows that evolution took place. I was a substitute teacher in Cali for seven years: none of the schools where I subbed taught atheism or religion. I am a college instructor now and I teach neither atheism nor religious beliefs. However, some of my students are offended and even drop the mythology class that I teach because I refer to Judeo/Christian tales as "myth." This has nothing to do with atheism but the fact that religions share the same religious tales.


So, if you do not want church involved in government, does this mean you don't use cash or coins? As they have "In God We Trust" on each and every one of them minted by the U.S. Government. Or is it convenient to ignore those words when it comes to obtaining the things that you want?


As Igor so aptly said, this has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand, aka "red herring."


This country was founded the basis that we are free to worship the religion we choose in the manner we choose.


So, worship as you please, just as everyone else is free to worship or to have no religion. No one is trying to stop you from worshiping as you wish; after all, even the Westboro Baptist Church does its "thing." Keeping religion out of school has NOTHING to do with YOUR ability to believe in the god of your choice.


How is this a country for all when anytime an individual can claim to be offended by something force the rest of us to change how we do things or spend more money to do it in private? I am offended when I see to men kiss, but I have to tolerate it in public if they choose to do it. But if I voice my opinion on this topic I am called a bigot, am I not?


And what would you do to stop men from kissing in public? Make it against the law? You are still free to voice your opinion, aren't you?

You seem to confuse freedom of speech with the freedom of religion or freedom from religion.

By the way, having the phrase "In God we Trust" on coins is not having "church" in government. While the phrase should be removed, a Hindu can toss the coin and give thanks to Kali for having money, eh?
 Bezoa
Joined: 7/2/2012
Msg: 12
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/22/2012 4:01:35 AM
The thing I'm seeing is that having religion in school forces certain beliefs on people, while not having them there doesn't force beliefs. It's non-action versus action, and the religious people can teach their beliefs outside of school without having to pay for private schools. It's akin to forcing people to consume the drugs, not to legalizing them and giving them the choice. Then, how many different religions would have to be thought in schools?

I don't understand the "make them pay for private school" thing, as religion is very easily imparted outside of school. Atheism is not taught in schools, by default, because no religions are being taught. I can understand some parents might be against another religion being taught to their kids, but this is not what is happening here.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 13
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/22/2012 5:17:19 AM
I think what this thread boils down to, is that the OP thought he'd found a clever way to argue that pushing for government support of a religious agenda, was somehow identical to pushing to keep government OUT of the business of pushing a religious agenda. Unfortunately, all of his arguments are based on fraudulent talking points from unthinking critics, rather than from actual facts.

No one FORCES religious-minded people to pay to have their children in Religion-supportive schools, nor does anyone PREVENT them from doing so.
 FundamentallyPeople
Joined: 12/15/2011
Msg: 14
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/22/2012 8:22:11 AM
The quote cited in the OP is indefensible, but that's because it's a terrible explanation of why public schools should be secular. Catering to atheists isn't, and should not be the point. And I say this as one.


Why is it that those who want their children raised in an environment that coincided with their religious beliefs, regardless of the specific religion, must pay additionally on top of their taxes for that right while those who want no religion of any type in school get to scream it's a violation of their personal constitutional rights, have all semblances of it removed, and not have to pay an extra dime?[\quote]

This isn't about the environment children are raised in, it's about the environment they're educated in. You have the right to control your child's education, and if you want to exercise it, home schooling and private schools are your options. As Igor said, public education is provided because an educated populace benefits society. The caveat I'd add is that the government has to provide schools because if it was left up to the populace to provide for their own children's education, many would be too poor and uneducated themselves to do a decent job of it, and many more would be too irresponsible or short sighted. Look at the number of uninsured drivers on the roads. So, public education is necessary.

Now, having the right to control your child's education is not the same as having the right to have public schools to teach according to your personal beliefs. If you had this right, so would everyone else. This of course, is wildly impractical and expensive among other things. Therefore, public school systems are by necessity a compromise because they need to be representative of the citizenry as a whole, not just the majority.

What many theists don't seem to understand about separation of church and state is that it's not about atheists and secularists benefiting at the expense of believers. It protects everyone and allows believers of various stripes to get along with each other. Putting religion in the curriculum always seems like a great idea to these folks because they tend to assume that the religion in question is their own, or something close to it. The voucher program mentioned above is a good demonstration of this. If you need another, do some googling on the Albermarle County School Board's backpack mail program.

You have the freedom to worship as you choose. You don't have the freedom to have the entire government cater to your beliefs at the expense of others'. The best argument for secular government is that it's the only way to deal fairly with a multicultural society. Catering to all religions is impractical, catering to just one is unfair to everyone else, and so catering to none of them is the only real choice.


How is this a country for all when anytime an individual can claim to be offended by something force the rest of us to change how we do things or spend more money to do it in private? I am offended when I see to men kiss, but I have to tolerate it in public if they choose to do it. But if I voice my opinion on this topic I am called a bigot, am I[\quote]

Given the rich, pearl clutching and offence taking history of religions and the religious, I find this paragraph both baffling and hilarious. Anyway, this doesn't help your argument at all (and I think by this point we can drop the conceit that you're not making an argument and just 'opening a discussion'.)

If I see people praying in public, or preaching on street corners, I am offended. That doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be allowed to do it. Keeping religious curriculum out of public schools isn't about being offended, it's about treating people fairly.

As a final word, you'll notice I use the term religious curriculum instead of prayer in schools throughout my post. This is because prayer is in fact allowed in schools in both America and Canada. It's just that the prayer isn't endorsed, led, taught or compelled by the school itself. Your kid isn't going to get detention for thanking their god for their PB&J or asking baby Jesus what the square root of 67 is, as long as they're not doing it in a way that disturbs other students or obstructs the school's ability to teach.

Aristotle_Amadopolis


..and has that always been on US currency or was it something that was added in the late 50's.


Apparently it's been on coins since the 1800's, but only on bills since the 50's. Of course, how long it's been there doesn't really speak to whether it should be there.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 15
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/23/2012 2:15:17 PM


The issue here is that the Pledge of Allegiance was in schools from the beginning of U.S. history, banned only when those who took offense to the words "...under God..." Now, if those who took offense to those words had instead been forced to pay for private schools to not have to say/hear them, what would the outcome have been? Instead, those who did not want to hear/say them have forced those that do to pay extra to educate our children in a different school system.

You have this 100% wrong

ex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance


The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.[1] The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954.

The US was not formed in 1892

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Pledge_of_Allegiance


Even before the addition of the phrase "under God" in 1954, legal challenges were frequently founded on the basis of freedom of religion.
Central to early challenges were Jehovah's Witnesses, a group whose beliefs preclude swearing loyalty to any power lesser than God. In the 1940 Supreme Court case Minersville School District vs. Gobitis, an 8-1 majority in the Court held that a school district's interest in promoting national unity permitted it to require Witness students to recite the Pledge along with their class mates. Gobitis was an unpopular decision in the press, and it led to a rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses;[2] three years later in West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette, the Court reversed itself, voting 6-3 to forbid a school from requiring the Pledge.

Jahova's witnesses are a religious group and the first to contest the pledge of allegiance, even before 'under god' was added



On March 11, 2010, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit upheld the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance in the case of Newdow v. Rio Linda Union School District.[33][34] In a 2–1 decision, the appellate court ruled that the words were of a "ceremonial and patriotic nature" and did not constitute an establishment of religion.[33] Judge Stephen Reinhardt dissented, writing that "the state-directed, teacher-led daily recitation in public schools of the amended 'under God' version of the Pledge of Allegiance... violates the Establishment Clause of the Constitution."[35]
On November 12, 2010, in a unanimous decision,[36] the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit in Boston affirmed a ruling by a New Hampshire lower federal court which found that the pledge's reference to God doesn't violate students' rights.[37] A United States Supreme Court appeal of this decision was denied on June 13, 2011.[38][39]
About one-half of the states require students in schools to recite the pledge and several others recommend it

It's still in schools in half of the states. While the last attempt to get it completely out of schools was for the complaint of "under god" you can see above that the addition of "under god" was made in 1954... not in 1776, as you claim.

The problem with having religion in schools is that the 1st amendment prohibits the state from favouring any 1 religion... So you'd have to teach them all... including Wicca (witchcraft), Satanism and all the others


"Court may not inquire into worthiness of parties' religious belief to ascertain whether they merit. First Amendment protection, but need only consider whether beliefs are 'religious' in parties' own scheme of things and whether their beliefs are sincere. USCA Const. Amend. I "To be a bona fide religious belief entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII, a belief must be sincerely held" and within the believers own scheme of things religious. USCA Const. Amend. 1: Civil Rights Act 1964 701 et seq., 717 as amended 42 USCA 2000e-16"

...ain't nobody got time for that
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 16
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/23/2012 4:50:36 PM
I think this thread is indicative of those people who believe that atheism is a religion. As such, they don't see public schools as having a lack of religion, they see it as advocating atheism!
 OldSpice48
Joined: 9/17/2011
Msg: 17
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/23/2012 6:34:55 PM
OP you're missing a crucial fact. Believers do not get “private” schools for free. There are secular private schools as well, for people who want their kids to have an education of higher academic standing. I myself attended a private school, paid for by my parents, for 3 or 4 years when I was young. And my parents & myself are all atheist. The school was secular, meaning religion didn't come into it. It's in the American Constitution that there more or less be a separation of church & state. The government can't support one religion over another. If you had it your way, then Muslims or Sikhs or Judaists would be complaining that schools were favoring Christianity. Get it?
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 18
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/24/2012 12:29:18 PM

OP you're missing a crucial fact. Believers do not get “private” schools for free. There are secular private schools as well, for people who want their kids to have an education of higher academic standing. I myself attended a private school, paid for by my parents, for 3 or 4 years when I was young. And my parents & myself are all atheist. The school was secular, meaning religion didn't come into it. It's in the American Constitution that there more or less be a separation of church & state. The government can't support one religion over another. If you had it your way, then Muslims or Sikhs or Judaists would be complaining that schools were favoring Christianity. Get it?


Don't use logic: it confuses some people.
 robertaus
Joined: 1/26/2010
Msg: 19
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/24/2012 3:19:04 PM

If I am an athiest and I have kids in public school, I have a right for religion to NOT be present. Those who are religious can PAY to send their kids to PRIVATE RELIGIOUS school where their brains can be washed with all the #$%$ that they can afford to buy


What do private religious schools in the USA shove religion down the students throats at every opportunity?. I would think not.I went to a private catholic school and religion was not shoved down anyone's throat.They actually had on the curriculum "religious education". So it was a choice to enrol in that class. The comment above defies logic.If the athiest kids go to a school where religion is present so what.The kids don't have to listen do they?.But what if they are curious about religion, should they not have a choice?.The athiest believes not.He even describes religious education as brainwashing. So much for the ethic of freedom of choice.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 20
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/25/2012 12:14:46 PM

You have to understand that balance debate does not exist on this forum as it has been captured by the ungodly(atheist) .
In a country like the USA where most people will tell you they are Christians ,I think all state schools should be religious based and people who want their children to learn science fiction should pay privately .In a country like the UK though, where nearly everyone you meet is an atheist(including some people who go to church), I think people who want their children to learn about the love of Jesus as part of their education,should pay private.

Does the Constitution mean nothing to you?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 21
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/25/2012 12:56:42 PM
Sorry dwight_the, but you have it exactly wrong. Though the Constitution itself does not directly state in detail what can an can't be taught in schools or be required by legal authorities, the associated and very much actionable body of legal decisions made by the courts, based upon what IS in the Constitution, does spell things out a bit more completely.

That's one of the tricky things about the Constitution (or any legal document, for that matter). The force of it's legality extends beyond the document itself, and include the definitions of the terms within it, as set forth by courts and other authorities. If this weren't so, then anyone who wanted to, could claim, for example, that shooting people is a form of speech, protected by the First Amendment.

And no, it is NOT true that religion can be taught in a public school, a long as it isn't a declared State sanctioned Church. Students can, and are taught that various religions exist, including what some small amount of their legends and principles consist of. But as soon as a set of religious beliefs are taught as though they are FACT, that IS State Sponsored Religion, and is prohibited.
 masterotaku
Joined: 7/20/2012
Msg: 22
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/25/2012 10:46:00 PM
The problem with the argument is those pesky bylaws our country goes by. Religion has absolutely no place in government funded anything.

Keep the religion out of schools and I will promise to not bring evolution to sunday school.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 23
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/26/2012 4:42:44 AM
Teaching the beliefs of a particular religion is tantamount to sponsoring a state religion. Furthermore, what if different religious groups demanded equal time for their religions? Even limiting it to just Christianity, would it be okay for you is protestant beliefs were taught half the time and Catholicism taught in the other half? How do you think protestant parents would react to their kids being taught in school that the Pope is the leader of all Christians and that the only path to salvation is through the Roman Catholic Church?

The eroding of the wall of separation can also backfire dramatically for theists. For example, what if the state decided to mandate equal time for creationism and evolution in Sunday school classrooms? Can you imagine the reaction? Theists would then be scrambling to reinstate that wall in a hurry. One of the goals of the wall is to protect religion from the intrusive nose of the government.

To theists: Did any of you ever wonder why religion is so vibrant in America while it's so irrelevant in Europe? Most of the European countries still have an official religion, and that government money and help means they don't have to try as hard to gain converts (government will keep them alive anyways so why bother?) while in America churches have to actively recruit people to stay alive, forcing them to be creative and innovative. It's just like private companies vs state-owned industries - there is no question which provides more innovations. IMO, the separation of church and state is the key to keeping religion alive in America. You break down that wall at your own peril.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 24
view profile
History
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/26/2012 8:27:40 AM
I don't remember the last time I've seen someone be so wrong about so many things.

Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Non-believers don't get private schools for free, lol.

When public schools leave religion out, they cater to everyone. This concept might be scary for those whose religion teaches them to be intolerant to those who believe differently, but for those who are accepting and open-minded its really quite simple and easy to accept.

When public schools fail to mention religion, that promotes atheism as much as a bakery does when it fails to shove religious beliefs down your throats. If you had some strange need to have religious dogma pushed on you when buying bread, then you should have to pay more for a special bakery (or school, or whatever) to do that to you.

The ones who cry the most about not having their religion forced into public school are also the ones who would cry the most if religions other than their own were forced on their kids in the same manner.

Why is it that only atheism is the religion permitted to be taught in schools?

Bahahahaha. You basically just waved a sign stating that you have no idea what atheism is.
Do you consider yourself to be a member of two religions - with 'theism' being the second one? No? Of course not, its ridiculous to think that theism (or atheism) as a religion. The idea that not believing in gods is a religion is no different than not believing in unicorns is a religion.

I am offended when I see to men kiss, but I have to tolerate it in public if they choose to do it.
I see that you're baptist - do you go to the Westboro Baptist Church? Your posts seem to align with their ideals quite well so I thought I'd ask.

Its disconcerting to see people who claim to follow Jesus, yet they walk a path that is as opposite to him as possible.

And by the way, schools are for learning. If you want dogma shoved down your kids' throat, thats what churches and your own home is for.
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 25
Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free
Posted: 8/26/2012 9:09:39 AM

" ... if a non-believer feels that those who want religion in school says they must pay for private schools to have it, which incidentally is and has been done for decades if not longer, then why can the shoe not be forced onto the other's foot and force them to pay to send their kids to private schools that do not mention religion? ... "


Premise Fail Nr 1: 'Private schools' are not the same as 'Private RELIGIOUS schools'.

Premise Fail Nr 2: 'Non-believers' should get special treatment separate and apart from 'believers' in a NON-religious PRIVATE school.

Premise Fail Nr 3: Private NON-religious schools (which is what you describe) do not, as a general practice, include courses of religious instruction in their curricula.

You really need to think these things through first ... next thing we know, there'll be people complaining they have to pay to send their children to a private school that includes goat-roping in its curriculum because the one they're currently in doesn't offer it ... or its' goat fails to match their religious beliefs. So many errors, so little time ...
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Should Religious Believers Be Forced To Pay For Private Schools While Non-Believers Get It For Free