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 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 1
FREEWILLPage 1 of 1    
I'm kind of curious about your perception regarding freewill......

Do you believe in it?
If so, how do you practice it?
Are the demands people make of each other a reflection of how we violate another human's freewill?

Do we really understand what it means to violate the freewill of another human?
 amatorhominum
Joined: 7/24/2012
Msg: 2
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/26/2012 7:12:27 PM
Freewill does exist. Humans are able to choose between alternatives. Anyone can make this observation. In order to practice it, one must simply think. The first primary choice is to focus or not. As for the violation of freewill, so long as force is not used, freewill is not violated. Some people understand the importance of allowing a man to choose; some do not.
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 3
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/26/2012 7:51:38 PM
Hey thanks for the responses....lol,
my bad, I wasn't paying attention to the thread on determinism :/

most human desires are instinctual, its our genetic make-up to respond to life in these bodies we come into----and is usually for self gratification.

But I hear ya on the violating of the freewill of those outside our country....although, if we all had a choice that didn't involve consequences, we'd all here probably opt out of paying taxes and going to work as soldiers for a country we believe is free.

The chaos will always continue as long as troops take heed to the belief that its something they MUST do----its a vicious cycle but the repercussions are the boomerang effects of these violations, in the other countries around our planet earth.
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 4
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/26/2012 7:56:16 PM
:)
Force isn't always something that is evident......
Most don't understand the laws of the universe; that be reason some do not understand the importance of recognizing the existence of freewill.
What you give out, always comes back, in one form or another.........
 J_bird61
Joined: 10/22/2011
Msg: 5
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/26/2012 9:55:09 PM
Freewill is choice, yes I believe in choice.
I make choices everyday.
Demands in this sense I'm equating to rules in society. Yes we need rules. Does it voilate our freewill? Some would say so, depending on the person and the rule. But then again, one always has a choice to follow the rule or not.

Yes we understand what it means to voilate the freewill of another human. Prison. Thank goodness.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 6
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FREEWILL
Posted: 9/27/2012 4:25:30 PM
It appears to me that you have several different ideas mixed together in this, OP.

First of all, the idea of Free Will has two basic applications or arenas that people talk about it in.

I most commonly run across the phrase, when reading about serious religious discussions, about whether their god allows them to choose their own fate, or if their god decides everything in advance. Those discussions have the most to do, with how to resolve both the idea that the god is all powerful , but still not blame the god for all the bad stuff people do to each other.

The other side of it is being talked about in the Determinism thread. That's the more science oriented side, about whether a person's choices are the direct and inexorable result of the collective tiny, but nevertheless all powerful subatomic forces that make up the substance of everything, including human minds and bodies.

Second, you mention making demands upon each other, as though asking for things, interferes with the other person's freedom of choice. To that, I would say absolutely not. Making demands, doesn't force the choice. Some people I've talked to, heard, or read from here, claim that by having expectations and requirements, that someone who another person wants, forces that person to make choices they otherwise would not.

That's absolute garbage. Some folks blame the fact that things are available for sale, for their decision to spend all of their money.

Attacking people, bombing them, yeah, that's pretty much a complete overturning of another person's free will.

So what is it you are actually talking about?
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 7
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/28/2012 11:09:52 AM
Well Hello Igor!
I'm gonna go check out the determinism thread, since its the second time i'm hearing about it.
Sounds like some good convo there....
thanks for your responses everyone :)
If my questions appeared scattered it just a reflection of how my thoughts are processing....they're all over the place most times. ;)
But ideally I just wanted to hear whether people even had a belief in the existence of free will overall.
And what it truly means to you.
Do you feel free? OVERALL?
I mean, I understand the dynamics of the games manipulated all across the world in its regard.
But as a human being, do you "feel" free here as an entity of planet earth? :)

Do you truly feel free to even "feel"?
 greenIsis777
Joined: 3/14/2012
Msg: 8
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/28/2012 11:27:33 AM
It is impossible to violate another person's free will. If that were the case, such a thing couldn't exist. Is that what you are asking? for a person to truly believe free will exists, they must believe in something beyond physicality, otherwise it's impossible. If you believe things just happen to people, that negates free will. If you believe free will can be can be hindered or violated by another, that negates it as well.

take the government, damn demanding, right? you could choose to not pay your taxes, to be imprisoned, etc. but as long as we have something to choose, even if it is only perception, we have free will.

It's no coincidence that some people walk around NY at 3 am in the morning and get robbed and others don't. It's not just coincidence. coincidence is 2 things that coincide, come together. why was she robbed 3 times last year and I have never had an incident, when we both walk in the same area at the same time? why did he fall off that cliff instead of his brother? etc. until people can understand and come up some suitable conclusions to the reasons for 'random' events, there will continue to be this 'problem.' I've come to my own conclusions, but most people don't. they just keep trying to debate it from a purely physical perspective.

I feel completely free in every moment. yahoo!!!!
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 9
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/28/2012 12:24:33 PM
:)
Great post greenlsis!
I personally don't believe in coincidences, no.
Staying in a purely physical perspective would appear illusory....I mean how do we deny our soul?
You know that silent watcher behind our liquid eye balls??
I do believe in synchronocities----
I guess people would identify and label that as mystic, but hey...whatever.
I never understand the fear back of embracing spirit world....as if it didn't exist.
That would make for a very lonely and dull world.

There's no reason to come to conclusions of random events, when everyone is experiencing this world in infinite ways. They are always attracting to themselves the exact frequency that they are on...its in their free will to choose whatever frequency they resonate.

I don't believe that freewill can be" violated" so to say.....
when a person chooses to take another persons life its hard to wrap your mind around the idea that the person murdered, drew that to himself.
But still the process of the actual person that did the kill, interfered with his freewill to exist....but it all happens in synchroncity and we judge it based on what we see, not on the dynamics of the murderer feeling dead already and that was his form of expressing that.

We've spent most of our existence, since our creation making attempts of understanding why we exist...as if there was only one solid truth out there somewhere.

Take fighting for just the right to even cohabitate on planet earth, for an example.....
Why was this even an issue ( constitution: woman suffrage amended in 1920) ----no other species has had to do this. LOL
Fighting over this land vs that land......
Can you believe that?

All that exists is polarity in our world here and we actually had to fight for the right to say we have a right to exist on the planet.
I shake my head in amazement by what we've had to endure here and amazed at how ignorant of a race we have been. A human race, that is....lol
THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 10
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/28/2012 1:33:48 PM

Do you believe in it?

No.

As much as we like to think we are in control, we are for the most part not.

If you have ever dreamed, you have proved you are not in control.




If so, how do you practice it?

n/a




Are the demands people make of each other a reflection of how we violate another human's freewill?

No.




Do we really understand what it means to violate the freewill of another human?

Any possible interaction between two humans could be seen as a violation, and it is pretty much impossible to exist without interactions, therefore violations of our "freewill" are necessary for our survival. Some understand this, some don't.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 11
FREEWILL
Posted: 9/28/2012 3:47:22 PM
The idea that the above events were somehow pre-dictated to take place is largely unfalsifiable as no matter what you do, it can always be argued that it was destined to be like that, like choosing a marsbar over a snickers.

I agree and would also say it have nothing to do with free will.

Because it is why you choose the Mars over the Snickers that matter and you may think you made the choice you wanted, but in reality you made the choice your body wanted.




Someone above used dreams as an example, but this argument fails when you consider Lucid Dreaming -- The ability to recognize that you're in a dream and continue the dream how you wish (if you wish).

The argument does not fail it is just presented with an *.

* Lucid Dreams n/a




so I don't see any legitimate reason to think we don't have free will.

When you see a cute girl, who decides that is will command a response?

You or your body?

What we see, taste, smell, hear, touch are all based on what our bodies decided to express that experience as, so this means that we are not free to choose, because our choices are imaginary.*

If you are ever faced with a life or death situation, you will not choose, you will let your brain do that for you, as you will just react.

We are just riders on a bus. You have the choice to take what bus you want to get you where you want, but you do not control the bus.




We live in Linear time and we don't have any legitimate reason to believe we live our lives on a pre-written story (Maybe some people choose to believe it to take away a level of responsibility when things haven't gone well in their lives? Just a though..), so I don't see any legitimate reason to think we don't have free will.

Your life is not pre-written based on what you will do, but why you will do what you will do is.

Because contrary to popular belief you have very little to do with the process of making you who you are, so the resulting action which you chose or do not chose to partake in are a results of who you are which you did not choose, therefore you really are not making a choice you are just reacting.




*
Dan Dennett: Cute, sexy, sweet, funny
Filmed Feb 2009 • Posted Mar 2009 • TED2009
7:49 in length

Why are babies cute? Why is cake sweet? Philosopher Dan Dennett has answers you wouldn't expect, as he shares evolution's counterintuitive reasoning on cute, sweet and sexy things (plus a new theory from Matthew Hurley on why jokes are funny).

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_cute_sexy_sweet_funny.html
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 12
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FREEWILL
Posted: 2/19/2019 6:27:29 AM

Because it is why you choose the Mars over the Snickers that matter and you may think you made the choice you wanted, but in reality you made the choice your body wanted.

But You are your body. You're a walking nervous system. You still made that choice. Even if it's pre-determinable by lights going off when under a brain scan of sorts -- indicating that you made that choice before you consciously came to that conclusion. To say that wasn't You doing that and that You had no choice in that would be silly. First, part of your brain lighting up is an indicator 'something happened' -- seemingly you made that decision... but easily Pretty Much came to that conclusion. Time can elapse to varying degrees of you solidifying it in your conscious mind, or even consciously mulling over it before taking action.

But let's say your brain comes to that conclusion before you're (fully) consciously aware that is your decision. That was still You, that was still your will -- your urges, your choices you were making.

So for the Mars & Snickers bar: "Oh, do I have will power not to eat candy bars? I have all the will power in the world! However... I have no free will when I'm hungry. That's just my body. That's not really me making the decision. That's, umm, that fat kid over there."

I don't see how this argument against free will works. I think the best arguments against free will are ones showing how Limited our free will actually is VS what we think. That I agree with, but I disagree with the concept of having any free will -- even if determinable.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 13
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FREEWILL
Posted: 2/19/2019 8:11:52 AM
Free will is great...when people actually exercise it. Far too often though they think what they are told to think. Religion comes to mind.
 Inicia
Joined: 10/11/2018
Msg: 14
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FREEWILL
Posted: 2/19/2019 10:09:32 AM
tthe "freedom" or "free" emotion are completely contained by the degree of comfort our beliefs provide us to exercise/express control of our existence within individual experiences. Free will or fate, discourse allows only an exposure of cultural and socialized norms perpetuated, within each community and the set sub groups, based explicitly, upon enforced, normative standards of control.

Therefore, existence of "FREEWill" or "determinism": irrelevant, to address the culture/social control trajectories that continue to impede our civil advancement. If my personal belief system could provide some insight, or advance the understanding of such ideological theories i would share..
However, my factual understanding is : if we believe:we are controlling our existence, we have better physiological responses.Therefore, believing: placing a 'faith'(any system) "loci" of control in any environment, thereby, improves said subjects physiological responses.

ie: my pleasure in expressing freely on this topic, is greatly reduced by negative sanctions of my free behavior. my choice expressed in the static of hearing howling bouts of laborious diarrhea cramps from the constipated social media police as i attempted my freedom of speech. blessings be.\sotd/
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 15
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FREEWILL
Posted: 2/19/2019 10:22:48 AM
Lots of people believe they are in control of their existence, but one need only read the posts of trump supporters in off topics to know they are not. In the end for people to be free thinkers they also need to be critical thinkers and unfortunately that is a quality sorely lacking among many...but at least liberals do not have their thoughts under others control to the extent conservatives do.
 Inicia
Joined: 10/11/2018
Msg: 16
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FREEWILL
Posted: 2/19/2019 10:45:01 AM
ie "critical thinking total opposition of free thinking" they do work together to provide the best possible outcome...if free thinking one is not critical thinking... end
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 17
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FREEWILL
Posted: 2/19/2019 11:00:33 AM
^^^ you are losing me.... Free thinking:


noun
a person who forms opinions on the basis of reason, independent of authority or tradition, especially a person whose religious opinions differ from established belief.


How do you have one attribute without the other? Critical thinking is the
the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment
means the ability to logically analyze and draw rational conclusions despite what you are told. Without critical thinking, how can you be a free thinker?
 Inicia
Joined: 10/11/2018
Msg: 18
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FREEWILL
Posted: 2/19/2019 2:06:19 PM
objective analysis(unicorn)-mythology of science - expressed as religion

believing they are exclusionary of one another -Yet, the "Free" is expressed only in so much as the"Critique" allows-blessing on your freedom of choice or thought

all i can say is imodium-giving birth to our own shit is a marvelous reward-
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