Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Gov      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 2
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from votingPage 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

Now, the question(s) is/are –
* Why would UK ask Palestine to not use its observer status at the UN to take Israel to ICJ.
* Was it sure that Israel would be found guilty of war-crimes? Or that Israel could not defend itself for its actions at the ICJ?

I think it's obvious: The UK (and the USA and others) have been complicit in many of those alleged crimes, and were certainly complicit in the zionist project, from the beginning. A country founded on the same religious mythology which we have 'institutionalised'.

I see that Israel reaction has been to state an " intent" today, to build a further 3,000 (?) homes in disputed territories, including the West Bank.
It's very childish.
The truth will always come out.
It's inevitable, just a matter of time.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 5
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/1/2012 3:41:26 AM

and if you can solve this one you've done well. Don't think there is an answer.

The answer's simple:
Stop believing in religions.

Stop all governments embracing or 'institutionalising' religions.
Stop listening to the (often) well-meaning, but seriously deluded ramblings of people, who's self- professed claims to 'commune' with the 'spirits' or 'gods', serve no other purpose but to elevate their own social status to "mullah", "rabbi", or "priest".

As a species, collectively, sociologically, we still seem to respond to the same sort of "alarm calls" which whipped our simian cousins into group-frenzies.
Whether consciously, or not, these people prey on that.
[No pun intended. All Rights reserved. Contents may vary]

 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 10
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/1/2012 7:39:24 AM
The solution to the Israeli Palestinian problem will come in two stages. First and foremost the Palestinians, and the other Arab nations of the ME, have to abandon terrorism in all it's forms and live peacefully with their neighbours and the west. Secondly we just have to wait for the passage of time. There is no doubt that the aboriginal peoples of what is now Israel have a valid and justifiable grievance against the Israeli's, the British and the United Nations for giving what was not theirs to give, namely the land that is now Israel.

However, the very same argument can be made of many countries that we regognise today which were born from conquest and land theft. Very few people question Americans right to call the land they inhabit America but as we all know it was stolen, often at the point of a gun, from the aboriginal peoples who were there before the first European settlers. Ditto for Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada and many others. It is only the passage of time and the births of many generations of citizens of the invading peoples that eventually give ligitimacy and unquestioned acceptance of the rights for the new inhabitants to call the land their own. So it will be with Israel, including the land upon which they continue to build settlements. As of today, most settlers and inhabitants in Israel and the 'occupied' territories are first or second generation Israelis. In another centuary or so they will be established and will be unquestionably the 'owners' of the lands which they now inhabit.

It is sad that we will have to endure many more years of conflict and destruction until that time arrives, but arrive it will, and one day the land of Israel and the surrounding areas will be able to live in the peace we all wish for them today.....GP
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 11
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/1/2012 8:21:25 AM
I appreciate what you are saying exiledinlincs but although conflicts and territorial claims can and do sometimes run into centuries, and there are even now many examples of that around the world, the desire to kill or be killed because of that wanes with the birth of each generation until such violence becomes unconceivable. There are literally hundreds of examples throughout history where this has proven to be true and no examples of any where armed conflict has continued for an overly extended period.

Just as no-one would question my claims to be English, British or even a Lancashire lad although my great grandparents came here as much despised Irish immigrants (and notably too, the Irish authorities would not now recognise my claims to be Irish), so it will be for the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the current Israeli's and settlers in the ME. Almost all countries and borders that are currently recognised throughout the world have been subject to change of ownership over the last few centuries. The only people who dispute such land or border demarcations now are, quite rightly, deemed to be terrorists or loonies.

IMO 100 - 150 years, or less if peace can be sustained, should do it. After that, whatever the ME looks like at that time will be how it looks forever.....GP
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 12
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/1/2012 9:15:13 AM

Just as no-one would question my claims to be English, British or even a Lancashire lad although my great grandparents came here as much despised Irish immigrants (and notably too, the Irish authorities would not now recognise my claims to be Irish), so it will be for the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the current Israeli's and settlers in the ME. Almost all countries and borders that are currently recognised throughout the world have been subject to change of ownership over the last few centuries. The only people who dispute such land or border demarcations now are, quite rightly, deemed to be terrorists or loonies.

IMO 100 - 150 years, or less if peace can be sustained, should do it. After that, whatever the ME looks like at that time will be how it looks forever.....GP

I'm not sure if there's ever been 150 years of sustained peace there, it contains the "holy sites" of three different religions, and "the word of god" can't be edited or compromised, or shared, apparently.... They all want it. Exclusively.

Just one small flaw in your "passage of time" theory:
Those people now claiming to be be the descendants of those early "rightful Israelis" waited for almost 2,000 years, before taking military action to "reclaim their land".

I can easily envisage the same, that the Palestinians will remember this injustice being perpetuated for millenia too.

Why would you suppose that the Palestinians would just 'let it drop', when the Israelis didn't..?

 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 13
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/1/2012 11:22:08 AM
With all due respect Jo Van, I cannot help but feel that you are overplaying the religious aspect of the problem, there are countless examples all round the world where the various religions come together and live in relative peace and harmony. The ME is no exception and Jews, Muslims and Christians have co-habited in almost every land in that region without too many problems for a long long time. It was not the peoples of the ME that committed the worst of the pogroms against the Jewish peoples, it was mostly the Europeans and the Russians.

The history of the ME is complex, and emotive, as we all know and it is made only more complicated by the religious aspect. However, there are no claims, other from religious zealots, that seek to justify Israels claim to the lands they now inhabit as a God given right. Their right to live there has been accepted by the UN and that is how it is and always will be. They, the Jewish people, could have ended up in Uganda, which was one option considered by the British, but they ended up in Palestine. The British believed they had the right as colonialists to grant lands and territories around the world and we did so many many times and not just to Israel. In every single instance those countries, including Iraq, Bangladesh etc. created by the British still stand today and are accepted just as Israel is by the entire world. The history of how Israel came into being only complicates discussion. Whether or not we had the right to do what we did is debatable but we did it time and time again all over our empire and nothing can ever change that now.

Once the Palestinians turn away from terrorism, which they will, the problem will be simply a matter of time and birth rates and things will be resolved within the timescales I suggested. There is, IMO, no possibility of life taking conflict being handed down from generation to generation, not once the children of both sides have been born, educated, lived side by side and have come to see each other as being the same people of the same land just as people now see me as English, British and Lancastrian as I said earlier.......GP
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 14
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/2/2012 6:05:53 AM

With all due respect Jo Van, I cannot help but feel that you are overplaying the religious aspect of the problem,

It is the basis for the creation of the State of Israel, how can I be "overplaying it", when "Jewish" is a religion...?

The history of the ME is complex, and emotive, as we all know and it is made only more complicated by the religious aspect. However, there are no claims, other from religious zealots, that seek to justify Israels claim to the lands they now inhabit as a God given right. Their right to live there has been accepted by the UN and that is how it is and always will be.

I shudder when I see the phrase "that is how it is and always will be", because it demonstrates exactly the intransigence of those believers who consider themselves to be "jews", or "muslims", or "christians".
"God exists, because it says so in the "Tora", "Bible" or "Koran"" is a circular argument, and any dissent is immediately viewed as "disrespect", and worthy of punishment.
Until very recently, we still had 'blasphemy laws' in this country too.
Religions demand respect.

Religions are 'absolute'. The "Tora", "Bible" or "Koran" can't be edited or changed.
The reason "Jews" went to Israel, is because it says so, in the bible.

The only way there can ever be peace, is if people start to admit their past mistakes.
That includes the British, for our part in this, the USA., and the UN. in recognising Israel's 'UDI' in 1948.

The 'zionist' project, which began in 1917, with 'The Balfour Declaration', and it's ultimate conclusion in 1948, was made at a time when the vast majority of people in this country were 'believers'.
Times have changed, we have new information now. (It's down to about 40% here now, I believe?)

The UN has issued hundreds (?) of resolutions condemning Israel's actions, and any action recommended against Israel, has always been vetoed by the USA. (A country where 70% of people still believe in the bible, and 40% still believe that the Earth was 'created' about 8,000 years ago!)

There is an inevitability about truth.
It was inevitable that we'd discover that the universe didn't "revolve around the earth", as the bible claims.
It was inevitable that we'd discover the world was 4.7 Billion years old, not 8,000 as the bible claims.
It was inevitable that we'd discover that it was evolution which made all creature what they now are, and not that "god made them", as the bible claims.

Religious texts are the understanding of the world, as far as people could guess, thousands of years ago.
Israel is a country founded on those myths.
It's inevitable that will be exposed as a falsehood, and all acts committed in it's execution, unnecessary.

It's not my fault.
Truth is to knowledge, what entropy is, to physics.
Inevitable.
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 15
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/2/2012 10:58:24 AM
It is interesting to see you use the past to validate your claims that the future will be the same as the present whilst at the same time showing how the past was so very wrong. Of course belief in God and the infallability of the bible was a core and inveterate belief at the turn of the century. And so it was too right up to my childhood some 50 years ago. I was taught creationism, we had a family bible that was read and quoted in our house, we went to church and Sunday school and so did all our neighbours and family friends. But that was then and this is now. The land that became Israel was indeed chosen because of a passage in the bible and that was indeed the reason that the Ugandan option was rejected but as I said, that was then and now is now.

There is no-one, other than a few religious zealots, that make the claim for Israel's right to exist, in the place it now does, as being God given. That right was bestowed upon it by the nations of the world by a vote at the UN. Whatever reasons each country had to vote in favour is / was a matter for them but I would respectfully suggest that very few were using passages from the bible to justify their votes. After what happened in WWII it was decided that a Jewish homeland was needed and Palestine is where it was decided it would be. Whatever the reasons for that choice and regardless as to whether the people making that decision had the legal or moral rights to give that land to the Israeli's is a moot point. The fact is that they did it and Israel will be where it is and will exist for as long as Australia exists, or Russia or Scotland or Norway or any of the current nations of the world exists. Just as America and Canada will never again belong to their aboriginal peoples nor will Israel. Religion has little or nothing to do with that, it may have had in the past as I conceed, but for now, and in the future, religion plays an ever diminishing role and is all but an historical fact even today.

I cannot help but read your post and surmise that your angst against religions in all it's forms is something you feel still plays a major role in the current dispute and conflict. I would disagree completely with that assertion. Let us assume that you are 100% right and that all religions are nothing more than ancient fairytales without foundation in fact. Heaven knows (forgive the pun), that all the evidence is pointing more and more to you being right since water and organic matter have been recently discovered on Mercury of all places and there is soon to be an announcement of a earth-shattering discovery on Mars. Let us assume as I say that tomorrow it is finally poven, beyond any doubt and any question that there is no God and every conceivable question as to the origins of life are fully answered.

Now if you are right to claim that religion is still a primary cause of the conflict then it is reasonable to assume that all sides will stop fighting. The Israelis will say oops, this land wasn't given to us by God after all, let's all move. All the religious people who support Israel because of the bible will stop supporting Israel and everyone will live happily ever after.

In my version nothing at all will change because the issue is not about religion it is about land and land ownership. The Palestinian terrorists will still be lobbing rockets into Israel and the Israeli defense forces will continue to do what it is they must do to protect the Israeli citizens and to provide homes for their ever increasing populations.

I have to say that my version would be the more likely of the two scenarios which goes to show that religion, when it comes to the ME and Israel is more an historical fact and not a current determinant of the conflict.

As I have said, the passage of time is by far and away the most likely means to finally resolve these territorial disputes, and whilst they may linger on for many many years, as do the border disputes between Lancashire and Yorkshire in the area where I grew up, they will cease to be reason for armed conflict and terrorism as indeed 99.999% of all border and land ownership disputes have over the ages........GP
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 17
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/2/2012 2:08:13 PM

Now if you are right to claim that religion is still a primary cause of the conflict then it is reasonable to assume that all sides will stop fighting. The Israelis will say oops, this land wasn't given to us by God after all, let's all move. All the religious people who support Israel because of the bible will stop supporting Israel and everyone will live happily ever after.

I wish
As I understand it, you have to be a "jew" to be an Israeli. Yes, I know there are some "Palestinian Israeli's", but if you're "jewish", you can immigrate, be granted immediate citizenship, and in the past, guaranteed to be homed. Some 3.5 million people have done this, from all corners of the world. They have a special term for this, but I can't be arsed to look it up. Being "jewish" is a religious definition.
I rather forlornly hope, that in time, people won't define themselves by the religions of their maternal ancestors.
A religion is just a belief.
Beliefs can change.


In my version nothing at all will change because the issue is not about religion it is about land and land ownership. The Palestinian terrorists will still be lobbing rockets into Israel and the Israeli defense forces will continue to do what it is they must do to protect the Israeli citizens and to provide homes for their ever increasing populations.

Interesting that you refer to the Israeli aggression as "defence" (just like William Hague) but the Palestinians are "terrorists"
Would you also call the French resistance to the occupying German forces, "terrorists"..?

This isn't ancient history we're talking about, this has all happened (almost all) during my lifetime, and it's still happening.
In 1948 the Israelis bulldozed hundreds of ancient villages, and forced the occupants to flee into the desert.
There were something like 700,000 refugees.
They are still bulldozing houses, and still taking land, (contrary to UN Resolutions) and giving the land to "settlers". Mostly religious extremists, who are viewed as "devout" and "worthy", because of their religious adherence to "orthodoxy".

Read the history here, written by "Jews Against the Occupation" (JATO)
(I think it's an unbiased version, because of that)
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Now, you tell me: if you stood on a hill, and said to your son; "see that 'condo' down there, with the swimming pool, and the big car port, that's where our house was, that's where our family's olive grove, which we'd farmed for hundreds of years, was, but they've bulldozed it, now we have nothing. "
Do you really think your son would just shrug, and say "oh well"..?

A terrible injustice has been committed against the Palestinians in Israel, and it still continues.
The world is just beginning to wake up to it.
That's why they've won this new recognition.

 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 22
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/9/2012 4:56:22 PM
I think only people who have never set foot in that area would applaud the founding of another Arab failed state in the area.

The Palestinians should perhaps deal with unifying their 2 states (Gaza or Hamazistan and the West Bank, i.e. Fatahland) rather than unilaterally trying to avoid the main issue: Their refusal to return to the negotiating table with Israel and actually pursuing peace.
In my opinion, the Palestinians as well as the rest of the Arabs still cling to their dream of an Israel-free middle east.

The countries that voted against this meaningless resolution should be proud and I hope they're rewarded for it.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 23
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/9/2012 4:58:43 PM

I'm with the Palestines, not to be confused with the Philistines!


The Phillistines were perhaps more civilized. They never used the suicide bomber to achieve their aims.
 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 24
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 6:16:04 AM
Technically speaking bomb making equipment came from the east - Gun powder was invented in China!
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 26
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 10:13:11 AM

No, the bomb making technology came from the West... and they have the nerve to call the Arabs the terrorists.


Aha. There's a difference between inventing something, then separately using it for some grotesque person.
I'm sick of people blaming the West for why other people act like barbarians.
Had it not been the bomb, then it would be the scimitar with which to behead people.

If the shoe fits.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 27
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 11:15:44 AM

The countries that voted against this meaningless resolution should be proud and I hope they're rewarded for it.

How will they be "rewarded"..?
And by whom...?

Aha. There's a difference between inventing something, then separately using it for some grotesque person.

I have no idea what this means. Is it an Alan Partridge quote..?

I'm sick of people blaming the West for why other people act like barbarians.

About 50 million people died in WWII, pretty much all of them, "Westerners" (Not cowboys, obviously).
And some pretty barbaric acts were committed, all by westerners.
It seems you believe the spin.

All countries have used "suicide missions" during wars, including this country.
I agree with Indigo, there is nothing 'civilised' about wars.

I hope the UN eventually give Palestine a full National Status.
This is a small, but significant first step.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 28
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 11:30:59 AM

And some pretty barbaric acts were committed, all by westerners.
It seems you believe the spin.


I'm not sure if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote, or genuinely have trouble following it:

When Westerners do it, they should have responsibility for what they do. When other nations, 3rd world nations, use their wealth to purchase their weapons and machete or execute their neighbour, the responsibility should be on them.


How will they be "rewarded"..?
And by whom...?


By Canada, US, Israel, Czech Republic... and most of all by the history books.


I have no idea what this means. Is it an Alan Partridge quote..?


Was that an attempt at wit?
The original quote was "There's a difference between inventing something, then separately using it for some grotesque person."

If you want an example: Let's then underline the point with the difference between Albert Einstein and many other pioneers in nuclear research, and the individuals that decided the best way to use this knowledge was to build a bomb with it.

In the context of the Middle East, perhaps the only Palestinian invention (apart from of course their unprecedented re-invention of themselves from East Jordanians to 'Palestinians' in the last 40 years) has been the introduction of bomb-strapped madmen self-destructing themselves in name of Allah, killing as many innocent civilians with them as possible. I think the inventor of dynamite even, could not have foreseen this, even the inventors of the modern day bombs which they buy and use.


I hope the UN eventually give Palestine a full National Status.
This is a small, but significant first step.


Yes, because we all know that the world needs another failed state.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 30
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 11:42:52 AM

Not much difference between Zionists and Nazis.


What you've written is bullocks. Sorry.

I suggest you read up on the history more, and not just from the most anti-Israel sources that you can find.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 32
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:29:39 PM
I'm not in the mood to replay the entire history of the Middle East.

The Palestinians, the Arabs, and probably in response, the Israelis, are violent, aggressive people.

If you wish to look upon the 'poor Palestinians' as the oppressed, who are only seekers of peace, then I suggest you look at their history.
In essence, it's only in the last 20 years that the wider conflict of Israel vs. the Arabs, has been downsized to a mini-conflict of Israel vs. the 'oppressed Palestinians'.
The Arabs and the Palestinians would like nothing better than for Israel to disappear(1948, 1967, 1973 to start with) , and have done their utmost to make that a reality. The very conflict even starts with a peace agreement rejected ONLY by the Arabs, and a subsequent invasion with 5 Arab armies. I see this cycle as repeated over and over again.

Then, as soon as they lose every single one of the aggressive conflicts that they themselves start, shout 'oppression', with then, every far left-wing moron and anti-Semitic fanatic to be there to cheer them on.

Perhaps anything will do for you. It won't for me. The PLO and Hamas are not the ANC, they are not Gandhi's INC and to even mention them in the same sentence cheapens their struggles.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 34
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:47:59 PM
If you wish to look upon the 'poor Palestinians' as the oppressed, who are only seekers of peace, then I suggest you look at their history.
In essence, it's only in the last 20 years that the wider conflict of Israel vs. the Arabs, has been downsized to a mini-conflict of Israel vs. the 'oppressed Palestinians'.
The Arabs (1948, 1967, 1973 to start with) and the Palestinians would like nothing better than for Israel to disappear, and have done their utmost to make that a reality. The ery conflict even starts with a peace agreement rejected ONLY by the Arabs, and a subsequent invasion with 5 Arab armies. I see this cycle as repeated over and over again.

Then, as soon as they lose every single one of the aggressive conflicts that they themselves start, shout 'oppression', with then, every left-wing moron and anti-Semitic fanatic to be there to cheer them on.

Yes, that's the version which most people still believe.
To my shame, it's probably the version I believed, until I researched it in about 1990.

Read the history here, written by "Jews Against the Occupation" (JATO)
(I think it's an unbiased version, because of that)
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Perhaps you think every religion should be "given" it's own country.>?
Jordan for the Jehova's Witnesses,
Mozambique for the Moonies..?
Sweden for the Scientologists..?

The real problem is that fewer and fewer people are believing in old folk-lore myths, and religions.
Israel was founded on a mistake.
Eventually, history will record that.


Edit:
(Editing's tricky, isn't it..? )

I don't think you know much about Jews or Judaism if you think that those comparisons are valid.
Jews are, and have always been, a nation, a people with their own distinct identity. Not simply a religion.


No-one is and "always has been, a people", or a "race".
Much less the "jews", who only "count" half of the genetic contribution.

Genetically, as Finbar points out, they share the same gene-pool as the Palestinians, though that has obviously been added to by whatever genes were accumulated during the alleged "diaspora".
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:54:43 PM
Are you a caricature?




good little goy that you are. Try not to choke on a bagel!


I think this comment indicates which of both categories you belong to.





Anti-Semetic? The usual lie peddled by Zionists morons. The Palestinians are a Semetic people!


To add again to the constant discussion I have with caricatures, Anti-Semitism in every dictionary since the beginning of time means a hatred, dislike of Jewish people.

A pseudo-intellectual sickness that unfortunately, you suffer from as well.

People that disagree and criticize Israel are not all anti-Semites, but you sir, are.

Now that I've done with you.



Jo van:



Yes, that's the version which most people still believe.
To my shame, it's probably the version I believed, until I researched it in about 1990.


That is however the history. It's one version of it, but the facts are there. It's war, war war and more war.




Perhaps you think every religion should be "given" it's own country.>?
Jordan for the Jehova's Witnesses,
Mozambique for the Moonies..?
Sweden for the Scientologists..?


I don't think you know much about Jews or Judaism if you think that those comparisons are valid.
Jews are, and have always been, a nation, a people with their own distinct identity. Not simply a religion.





Israel was founded on a mistake.
Eventually, history will record that.


National determination is not a mistake. It's the right of every people in the world, including the Palestinians.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 37
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 1:48:44 PM
Yes, my 'editing' however to correct spacing and typos, as well as to get this bad 'quote' system to work is sort of irrelevant.


No-one is and "always has been, a people", or a "race".
Much less the "jews", who only "count" half of the genetic contribution."


The Jewish people I speak of, in the same way as I speak of French and German or Polish people.
Nevertheless, if you wish to speak 'race', genetic tests among the Jewish communities the world over show that Jews are more related to themselves then to their neighbours, this includes of course tests on the people's that they used to reside with.
That there is a difference in Jews in terms of their DNA is clear, and it cannot be otherwise in a people where Jewish status is handed down via matrilineal descent, tribal distinctions such as with people are Cohens or Levis, go down through patrilineal descent. Equally tests among people that are Cohens show a common genetic ancestor, aeons ago.

The facts are there, in both Judaism, Jewish culture and in studies done.


Genetically, as Finbar points out, they share the same gene-pool as the Palestinians, though that has obviously been added to by whatever genes were accumulated during the alleged "diaspora"."


Please don't bother with quoting Shlomo Sand. He's one opinion, and indeed one among many.
People usually quote him because of his political views and political implications that his views imply.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 38
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:07:47 PM
I'm afraid I have a somewhat minority view on "race" and "nationality", and both have had chronologically 'elastic' borders.
Despite spending many millions trying to establish a clear genetic identity, the truth is that genetically alleged "jews" have an even broader range of alleles, haplogroups, clines, clades, clusters, and phenotype variations than almost any other alleged "race".
-Which is what you'd expect, as only the female contribution confers "jewishness", and they have lived all over the world.
There are "black" jews, and there are blue-eyed, fair-haired ones, from northern Europe.
"Jews" are the best example there is, of the folly of "racial" classifications.
Which is why it's all the more surprising they should put such great store on this.
It's all the more surprising that they herd the Palestinians into walled 'ghettos', based on "racial" ethnicity.

Of course the Palestinians are pissed-off, they were asked, they said no, but the British and Americans, and French all pushed ahead with the project to create a "jewish" state, in their midst, against their wishes.

Forget your bias,
Read the history, as detailed by "jews" on the link I gave.
I have absolutely no idea who Shlomo Whatsisface is.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 39
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:18:55 PM

Forget your bias,


Change starts at home.


There are "black" jews, and there are blue-eyed, fair-haired ones, from northern Europe.
"Jews" are the best example there is, of the folly of "racial" classifications.


Not at all, they're the best examples of it.
The "Black Jews" are the exception to what I described as their community, the Ethiopian community, are largely converts from local Ethiopian tribes a while ago.

It's not enough to say, well there are some blond haired Jews and some black Jews, therefore there is no Jewish race. There very simply is, and the myriad of genetic evidence stands testament to it.
I can't MAKE you see, I can only tell you that if you look it up, you'll find it.

Anyway, that is for the racial component.
As for the actual component of having a distinct cultural identity and considering themselves a nation for the entire time of the Diaspora, that is something that requires researching Judaism. I can't MAKE you do that either.


Of course the Palestinians are pissed-off, they were asked, they said no, but the British and Americans, and French all pushed ahead with the project to create a "jewish" state, in their midst, against their wishes.


There were no 'Palestinians' at that point, and the decision was largely made by an Arab block.

It was more than just the British, Americans or the French. You can check the vote on the UN partition plan to see.
It was a decision endorsed by the UN and would have brought peace. Given, that I assume you are a believer in the UN and that its resolutions should have some sort of validity, perhaps you should keep that in mind, rather than looking for every loophole possible to defend the indefensible, just because you have a soft spot for the Palestinian cause.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 41
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:37:41 PM

It's not enough to say, well there are some blond haired Jews and some black Jews, therefore there is no Jewish race. There very simply is, and the myriad of genetic evidence stands testament to it.
I can't MAKE you see, I can only tell you that if you look it up, you'll find it.

It's not a "race", it's a religion. That's why so much variation exists.
I have looked into it, in some depth.

I don't believe in the bible, the tora, or the q'uoran, all three religions share a belief in the old testament.
Primitive superstitious beliefs, written by people who knew no better.
There is no magic.


There were no 'Palestinians' at that point, and the decision was largely made by an Arab block.

Until 1948, there was no such country as Israel.

It was more than just the British, Americans or the French. You can check the vote on the UN partition plan to see.
It was a decision endorsed by the UN and would have brought peace.

I'm well aware of the history, and the reasoning behind the UN's recognition.
Most of the world was feeling so sorry, and guilty, for what had happened to them, and the sheer scale of it, that we'd have probably given them Belgium, if they'd asked for it.
Belief in religions was still very much the 'norm'.

Given, that I assume you are a believer in the UN and that its resolutions should have some sort of validity, perhaps you should keep that in mind, rather than looking for every loophole possible to defend the indefensible, just because you have a soft spot for the Palestinian cause.

Israel has ignored the UN., that is indefensible, as is their position.
Particularly as more and more people become aware of the history.

So for now, they have observer status.
Next, full nationhood.

I think the religious extremists on both sides are wrong BTW.
As I said in an earlier post, we'd stand a far better chance of peace, without religious nutters stirring-up trouble.
I've just heard on the TV., that 25% of people in this country, now describe themselves as "No religion".
That gives me great hope.
JMO
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 42
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:37:58 PM
Israel’s attempt to lobby the Western governments to vote “No” or in the very least abstain from voting if they can’t bring themselves to vote in its favour so that it can claim moral high ground by saying only despot led countries voted “Yes”. What did the result show? 138(yes) Vs 9(no, including some pacific island-nations)."


After getting past that countries like Spain and France voted in favour of the resolution...
Anything can pass at the UN General Assembly, here the majority is made up of Arab states clearly in an anti-Israel bloc, and other allies such as tin-pot dictatorships, theocracies and other corrupt 3rd world members of the Non-Aligned movement who think that they're sill waging a colonial struggle.

In the words of Abba Eban: "If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."



However, whenever Palestinians try to pursue a diplomatic route they get blackmailed. Ever wondered why more often we hear about aid-cuts, sanctions and withholding of Tax (collected on behalf of the Palestinians) happens every time the Palestinians seek a peaceful route


In essence, going to the UN was apart of the PA's blackmail against Israel, because it knew very well it would pass.
Why is the PA having the UN General Assembly decide about a matter that needs to be resolved by negotiations?

It is the Palestinian side, not the Israeli side that is refusing to return to the negociation table, and instead has tried to bring other means into it: Hamas, with its rocket attacks, and the PA by unilateral moves at the UN.

If there is a solution, it can't be resolved by marginalizing Israel at the UN and avoiding talks.




JMO:



It's not a "race", it's a religion. That's why so much variation exists.


It helps to know a bit about Judaism before 'deciding' what it is. It is neither entirely but has elements of religion, race, culture and national identity.
It's complicated thing to define Judaism, but simplifying it to meet your opinion is not going to get you anywhere.

A Jewish identity may have had its roots in a religion at one point (2000 or 2500+ years ago), but it is far beyond that point now.


I don't believe in the bible, the tora, or the q'uoran, all three religions share a belief in the old testament.
Primitive superstitious beliefs, written by people who knew no better.
There is no magic.


I didn't ask what you believed and none of my arguments rely on 'magic' or 'superstition'.


Until 1948, there was no such country as Israel.


While the modern state of Israel did not exist, a Jewish people did, and history shows that every single independent sovereign state on that very land has been Jewish throughout history.


Israel has ignored the UN., that is indefensible, as is their position.
Particularly as more and more people become aware of the history.


Just as the Arab side has ignored the UN since its very beginning. A law is only good when both people hold by it.


So for now, they have observer status.
Next, full nationhood.


That's up to their leadership and to their negociation with Israel. I'm indifferent towards it.



As I said in an earlier post, we'd stand a far better chance of peace, without religious nutters stirring-up trouble.


I agree, and have seen first hand how they make the conflict worse.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 44
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 3:08:20 PM

why do hundreds of thousands of Israelis protest for a two state solution?


Apart from saying "Well, if people protest about something, it must be right", I'll point to my comment that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination.
It doesn't however that from the fact that such a state or national identity has never before existed and is in a sense a continuation of the claims of the Arab cause on the land. It's a myth that the Palestinians are an age-old people who have been trying to create their own state there for aeons.
Had Israel not been established, the land would have been apart of Jordan, as it was between 1948 and 1967, without a peep from the modern day 'Palestinians'.
Sometimes the truth hurts.


Finbarr asked you a question regarding Zionists and Nazis. Apart from the usual buried bits like the Haavara Agreement, and those Zionists that helped fund Hitlers rise to power, perhaps you know of the collaboration between the Zionists and the Nazis concerning Palestine?


I don't think wasting my time with close-minded racist bigots is worth it. But since that you brought it up:
The 'collaboration' was an attempt by one arm of the Irgun to present a plan by which all Jews in Europe would be moved to Palestine, which would then become a fascist satellite. The Nazis never answered it, and the people involved lost their credibility and support because of it. In retrospect, perhaps that plan would have saved millions of Jews from extermination. Who knows.

The Nazis were prime opponents of Zionism (you can see in mouthpieces such as 'Der Stuermer') and supported Arab movements against it. The pictures of Hitler with Jerusalem Grand Mufti will not just 'fade away'.

I hate when people bring up half-truths.
Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting