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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...      Home login  
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 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 1
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...Page 1 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
...without breaking their pledge not to raise taxes?

I'm not trying to play "clever" here, more wondering if the five people who read the Politics forums think the GOP could actually persuade each other and the electorate that they kept their famous Norquist pledge never to raise taxes, if they allow the country to suffer the Fiscal Cliff. I know that obviously, if the country does go "over the cliff," that the GOP will blame the Democrats for refusing to let them have their way with things instead, but if taxes go up either way, how will that play in the wilds of reality?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 2
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/2/2012 1:04:13 PM
I know that obviously, if the country does go "over the cliff," that the GOP will blame the Democrats for refusing to let them have their way with things instead...

No doubt that there will be a set of Repubs who will try to take this road... It would be a mistake for the 'movers and shakers' of the party to do so... My read of much of the post-election polling is that the results of this last cycle are something of a 'test' for the Repub leadership; can they rise above the last four years of obstructionism and put the nation first or will it be another four years of dragging down the economy for purely partisan interests...

...but if taxes go up either way, how will that play in the wilds of reality?

Even though it doesn't look that way from the postings of the conservatives who troll these forums, the electorate as a whole tends to have a relatively short memory for tax hikes (on the larger 'party affiliation' level)... If the Repubs make the smart move and accept the necessary increases, it can only work in their favour (as a party, some incumbents may end up being replaced by 'fresh blood' but the party as a whole will gain) and Grover will be quickly forgotten...

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that realization to come about; I don't have a lot of faith in the rational intellect of the current crop of Repubs... I think it may take the 'pasting' (in the 2014 mid-terms) that this last cycle's results indicate the Repubs are asking for, if they don't modify their approach, to 'educate' them on these matters...
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 3
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/3/2012 2:15:38 PM
OK, here we go again, but maybe worth the exercise for the 7 people left in the political forum...

First off, this nonsense should stop about a "fiscal cliff"! While I really enjoy the Foxites running around pandering, and showing rocks or whatever they are, going over a cliff on their hourly mantra broadcasts for the deeply troubled or insane..THERE IS NO CLIFF!

On January 1, 2013 there is no impending meteor that will collide with our economy and send us spinning off to our galactic doom. If no deal is reached, automatically the current withholding will revert back to it's previous level. The tax rates will resume in a manner equal to pre-bush tax cuts... Now what does that mean to joe average? Well it means roughly withholding will rise on your weekly check from between $35 and $90 a week.

I will assume, that if we reached that point, negoiatiations will go into hyper drive. Of course whatever deal comes off the back end, will 95% sure, be retroactive to the first of the year. Next spending cuts will kick in, BUT they all don't happen on January 1 2013...they are phased in over a period of time...this to, should have a retro-active tint to it, with whatever deal is struck.

To me the final piece of the puzzle concerns estate and capital gains taxes...since nobody will really buy your stamp, mold and fungus collection for more than a cool million...I doubt this need concern the population of POF. Even here though the current cap of $5 million, will be bargained over, and I'm sure those with $2 million(or possibly the 5 mentioned will have much to worry about)...

The possible hardest hit component will be capital gains...which has gone from 30% to `15%...while I'm sure an increase is in order, it WON'T stay at 30%...somewhere in the middle is my guess. Now since the market got very bearish shortly after the election for a couple of weeks, it was a segment of these investors taking money off the table(profits) in some high dividend paying stocks...since however GDP growth looks to be around 3% for 2013...as many got in, as got out...hence our return to 13,000 on the Dow...and a similar reaction in the S&P and othr indexes.

Probably the biggest worry of all is the debt ceiling, that some republicants want to play with. One proposal from those idiots is coming back to address this monthly...another is a small increase, thereby neccesitating a few of these for the next year...the rating agencies will love that...means that we get another downgrade...which translates to higher % paid on the debt when money tightens again...

I expect a deal, despite the posturing of Boner, in the $3 to $4 trillion range in spending cuts over the next 10 years and a modest increase of about $900 billion to $1.1 trillion in taxes. The latter can be accomplished by a combination of deduction eliminations and rate increase for the top 2%.

Now sorry to say...the dems will have to give on some entitlements reform and the republicants on defense spending. Further post the recession we are climbing out of, and as unemployment gets down to below 6%...EVERYONE can expect to pay more in taxes! There is no feasible way to simply cut spending and significantly reduce the deficit. That will require more revenue..the problem is as we approach normalcy...will the azzholes in DC...try and return to spending like drunken sailors???

Then again, I'm just a lowly druid who understands the economy better than the azzholes trying to make the deal...but the deal must be made...when inflation hits(and it will) the cost for debt service will become enormous.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 4
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/3/2012 3:58:11 PM
Okay, but you missed a bit on what I am focusing on. Taxes will go up if the GOP refuses to cooperate, and we go through all that stuff above. Most of the GOP promised never to raise taxes. They appear to be "playing chicken" with the Obama administration, but since taxes go up if they follow through on their threats to let us "go over the cliff," it seems to me, that they are essentially threatening to break their anti-tax pledge, as a way of defending their anti-tax pledge.

One other thing, I have heard in the past, that inflation results in it being easier to repay debts, because the debt doesn't inflate, just the amount of money available to pay it. If wages inflate at the same rate as prices, it does mean that any "raises" people get are meaningless, but again, since the debt does NOT inflate, it's easier to repay.

This is why Bankers hate inflation. They get back less value than they planned on, even though they get the full amount of dollars.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 5
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/3/2012 4:44:01 PM
Igor, I'm a little dense currently...due to some outside influences. While the latter part of your post is spot onto to me. Since it is true in most instances, the terms of a note cannot be unilaterally altered. So as your wage rises in inflation, it is easier to repay a fixed debt.

The only problem that can and has arisen, is in cases of a "variable rate mortgage" or credit card debt, which can be raised unilaterally by the lender.

Now as to 'essentially threatening to break their anti-tax pledge, as a way of defending their anti-tax pledge'...is the part I am failing to see. Grover baby has been slinging this nonsense for 22 years...his infrastructure has aligned with the tea party...which gives him more clout.

Unforseen to this point, has been the need to raise taxes in the worst of circumstances. The crash of 1987, or the mini recessions in 1991, or in the clinton years, or the last one post 9/11. All were minimal in the effect on the overall economy. Now MY reason for my reaction to Grover, is his "no new tax" pledge, should be coupled with a "no new major spending" pledge to go along with it. We never heard a peep out of Grover with the tax cuts(something he supported), nor a word when shrubbie started the 2 wars.

If you spend more, it only stands to reason, you need more revenue, to offset that spending.
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 6
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/3/2012 6:21:32 PM
My take is nothing will be agreed.
Taxes will go up next month.
Military cuts will be made.

After that happens....
then the Republicans can deal.
Cus after Taxes go up on their own
any deal would be a tax reduction.

Politicians(of either party) can't stay in office unless they are clever about it.
:-P
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 7
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/3/2012 7:23:16 PM
A brief PS...so long Igor..it's been great leavin next week....be well and balanced...
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 8
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/3/2012 7:43:13 PM
Will probably get yelled at for this but...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/03/gop-cliff-counteroffer/1743307/

What if the Democrats just want to go over the cliff to raise taxes on everyone equally then to blame the Republicans for not giving in.

9:48PM EST December 3. 2012 - WASHINGTON — House Republicans sent a counterproposal to avert the "fiscal cliff" to the White House on Monday outlining a $4.6 trillion deficit reduction proposal without raising tax rates.

President Obama and Senate Democrats have said that without a deal to raise tax rates on the wealthiest Americans there is no path forward to avert the fiscal cliff


Which side is really all or nothing? How much money exactly are you talking about rasing from the rich? Show the number.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 9
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/4/2012 4:57:38 AM
you pissing off then oy?

well as i said if your in the uk and coming to edinburgh ill buy you
a pint or three in some good working class boozers and rather than this
being seen as a conversation we can discuss can republicans permit etc etc (on topic see before
someone feels the need to be offended and throw a strop)

anyway if you want a contact way pm me

aw the best and i hope you get cured of that liberalism mate lol

Ye tak' caur mucker an' min' whaur an' fa tauld ye first abit th' rise ay populist fascism in europe.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 10
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/4/2012 5:38:09 AM
Bob,

Even with you think is a befuddled explaination of the cliff I get your points...Grover never held the candle to the feet of the republicans while they were putting two wars on a credit card...but, oh baby, don't raise taxes or he'll drive you out of office.

Igor, the repuglicants will point the finger at the dems and visa versa the moment we slide over the slope on the resumtion of pre-Bush level taxes.

Both parties, I predict, will play chicken with the fiscal cliff till 12/31 and then start to make progress...Mr Oy is correct, in that, if the debt ceiling isn't raised the rating companies will once again see the dysfunctionality of congress and lower America's bond rating...driving up the cost of borrowing-which we have to do.

Bob, take care, God Bless, and love those children all you can....I will miss your witty and insightful thoughts.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 11
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/4/2012 6:10:52 AM
i just watched this report on taxes in the uk on russia today
its a meltdown scenario lol no wonder the country is donald ducked. we get nothing back in return
just patronised and patted on the head and told we are too thick to understand.

nero fiddled (allegedly) while rome burned
our politicos are on the fiddle while the uk collapses. but more and more folk want to work cash in hand
and customers want to pay cash to avoid the 20%vat plus the 20%income tax

but unlike mainland europe we brits are too cowed and scared to say anything in case it upsets someone.
i currently earn £80 per day cash in hand. i have a few days graft before xmas and the exchequer is getting
plums from me or the customers lol (any statist stasi fans feel free to grass me up lol)

Tax Hell: 73% rates cripple UK families, killing 'aspiration nation'
A new study reveals Britain as one of the toughest countries to live in when it comes to paying taxes. The research shows that some households are paying around 73 percent of their income into tax, with no hope of getting valuable benefits in return.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ1xGKYB7p8&feature=g-all

so bollocks to the state until we start getting something, anything back from our taxes (dont mention roads, the romans left better roads than we have just now) i shall live life as written by the great indie band
the smiths (although scottish the sentiment is the same)

STILL ILL
I decree today that life
Is simply taking and not giving
England is mine - it owes me a living
But ask me why, and I'll spit in your eye

And if you must, go to work - tomorrow
Well, if I were you I wouldn't bother
For there are brighter sides to life
And I should know, because I've seen them
But not very often ...
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 12
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/4/2012 7:19:21 PM

Most of the GOP promised never to raise taxes.


Only for the mega rich; read their fine print.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 13
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/4/2012 8:31:40 PM

Bob, take care, God Bless, and love those children all you can....I will miss your witty and insightful thoughts.

Same here

--


Igor, the repuglicants will point the finger at the dems and visa versa the moment we slide over the slope on the resumtion of pre-Bush level taxes


Does it really matter any more. No matter what its a cliff. With the labor strike from LA products all over are going to mysteriously get more expensive. Everything will go up and the divide between rich and poor will grow even wider but with fewer rich. Don't forget to pat yourselves on the back on the way down to the welfare office. You got what you voted for. Enjoy.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 14
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 2:36:49 AM

I know that obviously, if the country does go "over the cliff," that the GOP will blame the Democrats for refusing to let them have their way with things instead,

And conversely, the Dems will blame the GOP.... I don't really see the difference.

It's just as easy to look at it as "If the Dems were really concerned with keeping the tax cuts for lower incomes, they wouldn't be forcing a risky ultimatum onto Congress, where they don't have a majority, in an attempt to raise taxes on the rich and get, best case scenario, an extra $100 billion in revenue (less than 10% of how much your country is going in the hole every year)".

It's like watching two children, one grabbing either arm of a doll, keep pulling until they rip it in half. Then, once the doll is broken, they both start pointing fingers and squealing how the other was at fault.

Anybody who is absolutely hardcore about taking a side in this issue is just one of the squealers.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 15
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 3:13:31 AM
I wonder if Norquist has been asked and has answered, "if the GOP does choose the "cliff," which raises EVERYONE's taxes, and does so more than the Dems want to raise them on the upper folks as an alternative, will he support them in that choice?" Guess I'll just have to wait and see.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 16
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 3:25:10 AM
Why is it that only the GOP are the ones choosing the cliff?... not kind of a mutual decision?

I'm really curious as to why people look at it so one-sided.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 17
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 9:12:20 AM

I'm really curious as to why people look at it so one-sided

Because they won... Any opposition is always the impediment to progress. Good possibility would have occured the same if Mitt won.

A deal will be reached and I predict it will be reached based on a lie.

"Temporary tax increase on the top 2%. It will be revisted in 2013 where the overall rates will be lowered after removing loopholes and some deductions which will broaden the tax base"

IOW the Romney plan but with a big FU thrown in to the rich that will have zero impact financially but will make that 98%ers all happy that they got theirs in.

Mob mentality.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 18
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 9:48:06 AM

Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...

Step 1: Create Cliff.

Step 2: Warn everyone one of said cliff.

Step 3: Profit.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 19
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 9:54:22 AM
It seems that the GOP has more to lose if we go over the "cliff." As Igor was saying, taxes go up if that happens.

A few things, though:

-the cliff was made by politicians; it can be unmade by politicians, even retroactively.
-it isn't really a "cliff," as Oy pointed out. That was a sensationalist media term that pundits now recant. Imagine that.
-yes, both sides can and will blame eachother, but whose blame is going to stick? Election exit polls show that voters are more likely to blame the GOP on this issue.
-will there be another credit downgrade as a result? If so, that will also be worse for the GOP than Dems.

There's no more getting rid of Obama now. If the GOP continues to be obstructionist out of spite, it only makes them look worse in the eyes of the majority of voters. On the other hand, the President and the First Lady could stand to be more social and warm with others in Washington...
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 20
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 11:11:19 AM
"Why is it that only the GOP are the ones choosing the cliff?"

Well let's see...the GOP is dragging their feet on a deal, of any kind, to keep in place the bush tax rates for the 2% of the richest folks in america. So how else would you term that? If the democrats are trying to keep the rates for 98% of the people, and the GOP is for 100% of the people...who really has the interest of the majority in mind?

Further as I mentioned, this is a bad remake of "groundhog day" the movie, every day since the election, the republicans awake to the same campaign ideas the had before they LOST the election...

Yesterday was another prime example, Boner came out with almost the same proposal Romney made in the campaign that went down in flames, saying the president was putting forth nonsense. That he lacked the mandate to do so, because they(the House) was still in republican hands post the election.

Well let's use Boner's thought for a moment, and extend it, by using history. Let's see if we can devine "mandate"!

In 2000 Bush lost the general election vote by 500,000 votes, BUT won the electoral college. Let's ignore the help he got to do this, by the SCOTUS!

He then took that minority of a popular vote, as a mandate...went on to start 2 wars, do 2 tax cuts, pass unfunded RX legislation for seniors and the Patriot Act, ignore a city(NOLA) that was drowning and a host of other things...

Now Obama won by more than 3 million votes, 300+ in the electoral college, all but one of the swing states, his party increased their senate seats, even picked up some in the house...probably would have been more except for gerrymandering post the census...

And yet, the republicans claim a victory, to continue or try and implement their policies? Hahahaha! If government is supposed to be majority rules, as dictated by the people in an election...how do they get to do that and NOT be held responsible?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 21
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 12:04:37 PM

And yet, the republicans claim a victory, to continue or try and implement their policies? Hahahaha! If government is supposed to be majority rules, as dictated by the people in an election...how do they get to do that and NOT be held responsible?


We aire not and have never been majority rule. If we were then... Well, white Christians would make sure you don't get your way.

You don't want majority rule.

Democracy is a failure for a reason


What should be occurring is that the representatives should be voting along the lines of those that voted for them. This should mean that republicans should be voting for some tax increases and that some democrats should be entirely against them. Regardless of their personal belief.

Although there is the right of the representatives to go agains that wish for the good of the country.

Who broke the system. Leftists did.

But they got what they wanted. Near tototal power. Congrats
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 22
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 12:19:12 PM

Who broke the system. Leftists did.


I'd argue it wat the fascist right wing-nuts that broke the systme...and the greedy 2%'ers...what drives this country is the purchasing power of the middle class that is eroding for the benefit of keeping the wealthy with ever growing wealth...the GOP and it's wealthy masters don't realize this and think trickle down economics works-ignoring all the failures of trickle-down economics...the GOP is holding hostage 100% of the country on the fiscal cliff for the benefit of their masters, the 2%
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 23
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 12:42:54 PM

We aire not and have never been majority rule. If we were then... Well, white Christians would make sure you don't get your way.

You don't want majority rule.

Without saying so outright, you are, of course, speaking of the concept of "the tyranny of the majority." There are a few problems with your points, though:

-you have not shown that the US has never been majority rule
-you are assuming that white Christians have not gotten their way in the past
-you are assuming that white Christians are in the majority today
-you are assuming that there can be no such thing as a tyranny of the minority

Correct me if I am wrong, but I would think that our main protection from the tyranny of the majority is the Bill of Rights. However, we are not talking about any violation of the Bill of Rights here.

Who broke the system. Leftists did.

But they got what they wanted. Near tototal power. Congrats

There you go again. Remember, we have gotten to see how total rightist control of all three branches turned out. No one was doing any congratulating, either.

You can always sleep with a nightlight on. Some have even chosen to join a militia in response to Obama's election.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 24
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Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 12:47:31 PM
OyVay:

the republicans awake to the same campaign ideas the had before they LOST the election...

Romney lost the election... but there's still a majority of Republicans in Congress.

You think that the majority who voted those members in want them to roll over and pretend they're Dems just because Obama won his election? Why have a Congress at all?... or even a Senate?.... just elect yourselves a King and be done with it.

In 2000 Bush lost the general election vote by 500,000 votes, BUT won the electoral college

...and then in 2004 he won by a majority.

And yet, the republicans claim a victory, to continue or try and implement their policies? Hahahaha! If government is supposed to be majority rules, as dictated by the people in an election

At one time the majority of Americans supported Bush and the war in Iraq.... those who were against the war should have just shut up?
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 25
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/5/2012 1:38:55 PM
@427


<div class="quote">You think that the majority who voted those members in want them to roll over and pretend they're Dems just because Obama won his election?

You don't understand! Members of the GOP in the house can't budge even if they wanted to because they are beholden to their ultra/mega rich benefactors who want them to stonewall Obama to the very end (or their death), in order to protect their very elite & privileged tax status; even if it means going "off the cliff" to the utter detriment of the US populace. Thus, the interests of these GOP members are no longer (if they have ever been) for the majority of the pple; but rather the 2 percenters up on top who want to remain privileged as such!
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...