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latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of SpeechPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
(I hope this is an appropriate forum. Any religion forum is supposed to be closed? And since I think this is a matter of political science anyway, I wouldn't think Off Topic really counts.)

Well, on monday the atheist musician Fazil Say was given his sentence in Turkey for some tweets about religion. And he was also either forced to leave, or compelled to leave, his native country because of the whole issue.

A simple quick keyword(s) search can bring the news story. And I'm sure that Pat Condell has something useful to say on youtube about the whole thing.

So, I'm wondering how many people out there in pof-land really understand the practical importance of the freedom of speech, as opposed to just the "idea" of it, and why any law against "blasphemy" would be a horrible thing?
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 2
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/15/2013 7:24:00 AM

the practical importance of the freedom of speech

Turkey doesn't have a 1st amendment.


why any law against "blasphemy" would be a horrible thing?

why would you suppose that an overwhelmingly muslim nation would *not* think that "blasphemy" isn't horrible?
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 3
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/15/2013 7:31:08 AM

Turkey doesn't have a 1st amendment.


which was the point of OP's post, to point out how important the First Amendment truly is. And yes, many Americans do not understand the concept. They want Free Speech, but they also want to put in jail people who burn the flag. Texas convicted somebody of that very thing back during the Viet Nam War, overturned by SCOTUS.

OP, what are you talking about, religion threads being closed? They are all over the place here.
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 4
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/15/2013 7:54:48 AM
i don't think Turkey believes the First Amendment is anything more than completely irrelevant and unimportant. it's a sovereign nation governed by religious zealots. furthermore, i don't think anyone is going to change their mind about it. i could be wrong. kudos to Turkish atheists, though, who are bucking the system??? one would think Turkish atheists would be happy to leave such a country instead of complaining that they're being forced out. it's like wearing rags and being fed nothing but swill but complaining that you're being forced to choose something more liberating and interesting because you were born in a garbage dump.

here is the religion forum, though: http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts14651741.aspx


vvvvvv
they "hid" the religion and politics forums a while back because too many people were ruining them by starting pissing contests. people tend to get a little heated with these topics.
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/15/2013 8:06:46 AM

OP, what are you talking about, religion threads being closed? They are all over the place here.


I only mean that it's not available the same way the other forums are. You have to do some search for it on your own. Anyway, the way that I mean my op seems that this forum is most appropriate.
 csamcsog
Joined: 4/8/2013
Msg: 6
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/15/2013 4:50:13 PM
they "hid" the religion and politics forums a while back because too many people were ruining them by starting pissing contests. people tend to get a little heated with these topics.

9999999999999999

So, then why did they not hide the "sex" forums? There are many more things to literally hide there, and the pissing goes on big time, too, and brown showers as well galore, as much as you can eat AND take home in your cheeks.

This does not add up.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 7
view profile
History
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/15/2013 5:45:10 PM
#3

And yes, many Americans do not understand the concept. They want Free Speech, but they also want to put in jail people who burn the flag.


I don't consider that a failure to understand freedom of speech. There are several categories of speech the First Amendment does not protect--e.g. defamation, child pornography, and inciting imminent violence. I know the Texas flag-burning case your referred to, and I think the majority of the Court got it wrong.


any law against "blasphemy" would be a horrible thing


Yes, and we're not about to have any such law in this country. But that's not for want of trying by this administration. Mrs. Clinton and others were heavily involved in what came to be known as the "Ankara Project," named for the site of a conference that kicked off an effort to be more sensitive about speech that might offend Muslims. Some prominent Muslim Brotherhood types were even invited to Washington, where they told our savants how much better relations could be, if our government would browbeat Americans into saying only what Islamists approved of.

This groveling to please foreign Muslims calls for this administration to walk all over the First Amendment, but since when is a U.S. president supposed to put the interests of Americans ahead of the interests of aliens? Come on! Aren't we all just one big world? The goal of this process of badgering Americans to kowtow to Islamists is to catch us up to the rest of the Western world. So far, we just haven't become spineless enough--other countries have been much more eager to submit to the will of Islamists.

After a few gory jihadist attacks, many people in Europe, Canada, and other places became so cowed that all the Islamists had to do was shake their fists and yell every so often, and the Westerners would start bowing and scraping and attacking anyone who dared offend Muslims. Their thinking is, "Don't make them mad, and they'll leave us alone." This craven urge to appease also takes the form of hostility toward Israel. It's a lot like 1938, when the idea spread that if Britain and France would sit on their hands while Hitler devoured Czechoslovakia, his appetite would be satisfied--they would buy peace by sacrificing the Czechs. Didn't work then; won't work now.
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 8
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/15/2013 8:22:26 PM

I don't consider that a failure to understand freedom of speech. There are several categories of speech the First Amendment does not protect--e.g. defamation, child pornography, and inciting imminent violence.


The point of free speech is to protect expression of ideas and thoughts and opinions, not to allow one individual to injure another private individual through the use of libel or slander (still . . .it is protected from governmental criminal law). There is no purer form of free speech than the right to burn the United States flag which represents the freedom to burn it. Even being the Scalia conservative that you are, you can surely see this. You can never have too much free speech if you believe in the concept.
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/16/2013 6:30:32 AM

Turkey doesn't have a 1st amendment.


which was the point of OP's post, to point out how important the First Amendment truly is.

What he ^ said.

Some years ago I attended an atheist "meetup" in a church where the central activity was to watch a debate on a large screen between Christopher Hitchens and a religious apologist (don't remember which one, they're all the same to me). It was a pretty sizable affair, with a few hundred - meetup members, and both adults and youth of the church. The different group discussions that formed casually after viewing the debate were a bit entertaining as well as disheartening.

But can you imagine such events being able to take place in some other countries? And what they'd be like if they could even happen?

And I'd like to note that it's my view that such things can happen in America not because of religion, or christianity in particular, but because of the American idea of secularism and separation. As some point out, religion has done good things, including fostering or inspiring such activities...but it's not really the religion or religious part of someone or some organization that can claim credit for this. This really happens in spite of religion, not because of it. It's the non-religious part of a person or organization which is responsible for such things. If religion is ever left to itself, and rationalist, secular, or separation ideals don't do their part, this atmosphere of questioning things and being able to speak openly and free would not be.

But anyway...some guy somewhere tweeted some religious criticisms, and was actually legally charged and sentenced with a crime. Why this still doesn't outrage many people is sad to me.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 10
view profile
History
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/16/2013 7:39:10 AM
#8

<div class="quote">(still . . .it is protected from governmental criminal law)

What is? Defamatory speech? The First Amendment no more prevents government from making that a crime than it prevents it from making child pornography a crime. The Constitution is not the reason some acts are grounds only for a civil suit rather than criminal prosecution. And all laws, whether criminal or not, are "governmental" laws.


<div class="quote">There is no purer form of free speech than the right to burn the United States flag which represents the freedom to burn it.

I don't agree. The men who wrote the First Amendment and the people who ratified it never intended it to protect the burning the flag of the United States. Laws against burning or otherwise desecrating the flag should not be unconstitutional.


<div class="quote">Even being the Scalia conservative that you are, you can surely see this.

I don't know what a "Scalia conservative" is, let alone how you would know I am one. I tend to agree with Justice Thomas in most cases. I believe Justice Scalia and the rest of the 5-4 majority got it wrong in Texas v. Johnson.


You can never have too much free speech if you believe in the concept.


Believing in freedom of speech is not the same as believing that the freedom of speech is absolute in the U.S. It is not, and it never has been. It should be obvious to anyone who thinks about it for a moment that some speech can't be tolerated.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 11
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/16/2013 8:00:28 AM

This groveling to please foreign Muslims calls for this administration to walk all over the First Amendment, but since when is a U.S. president supposed to put the interests of Americans ahead of the interests of aliens?

I think it started with Regan when he implied that the Taliban 'moral equivalent of America's founding fathers'.

Though one could argue that the seeds of groveling started back in 76 when G.W. Bush partnered with Salem bin Laden, (Osama’s half-brother) to create the Arbusto Energy Oil Company.
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/16/2013 8:25:18 AM
I think that the whole purpose of free-speech is, centrally or originally, or should be, two things -

- Retaining the ability of people to communicate with each other, and so organize and coordinate, for the purpose of rebelling or "fighting back" against a wrong that is perpetrated.

- Allowing for the free-flow and development of ideas, so that individuals and societies can develop and grow intellectually and socially, on any/all fronts.

(In both, honesty and rational-integrity is intrinsic and assumed, while also being part of their aim.)

Whenever I want to decide if something is a case of free-speech and if the idea of free-speech needs to be observed and practiced, I fall back on these two axioms, as a clarification of the whole practical point of it all.
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 13
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/16/2013 8:37:12 AM

(still . . .it is protected from governmental criminal law)

What is? Defamatory speech? The First Amendment no more prevents government from making that a crime than it prevents it from making child pornography a crime. The Constitution is not the reason some acts are grounds only for a civil suit rather than criminal prosecution. And all laws, whether criminal or not, are "governmental" laws.


Really. Can you cite me a law that criminalizes defamation . . . anywhere in the country? Child pornography is another issue. Obviously, under strict scrutiny, free speech will not prevail when protecting children.



There is no purer form of free speech than the right to burn the United States flag which represents the freedom to burn it.

I don't agree. The men who wrote the First Amendment and the people who ratified it never intended it to protect the burning the flag of the United States. Laws against burning or otherwise desecrating the flag should not be unconstitutional.


so you believe in Free speech, so long as we do not have TOO MUCH free speech. You would limit it. Fortunately, SCOTUS does not agree with you, so laws against burning or otherwise desecrating the flag ARE unconstitutional.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 14
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History
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/27/2013 11:36:41 PM



freedom of speech is...EXTREMELY fuckin' important!

tape your mouth shut if you don't understand or agree.


 justlookingvt
Joined: 5/8/2010
Msg: 15
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/28/2013 12:38:29 AM






they "hid" the religion and politics forums a while back because too many people were ruining them by starting pissing contests. people tend to get a little heated with these topics.


Which prompts the religious to pollute the science/philosophy forum. I think they should unhide it and make it unmoderated (those that have a problem can pray/complain to god). That might open the possibility of talking about science in this forum. What a concept.

OT:

Looks like freedom of speech is more than they can handle in Turkey. I think everyone in the world should re-tweet Fazil Say tweets twice a day for a month or so, just to let the Turkish government know how “impressed” and “deeply worried” we are about blasphemy... :-) Let’s exercise _our_ freedom of speech :-)

I agree with Fazil Say

“You say rivers of wine flow in heaven, is heaven a tavern to you?”

“You say two huris [companions] await each believer there, is heaven a brothel to you?"

I like this Fazil Say guy. :-)

.......................................................................................................................................

On a different note...

I got to give islam credit for having a more competitive package than christianity. Like christianity, they offer immortality and, in addition to that, booze for nothing and chicks for free. No wonder the simple minded die for that stuff.



latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/28/2013 10:31:56 AM
rathlinlighthouse ^ Well, ultimately, you're preaching-to-the-choir when talking to me about this.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 17
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/30/2013 4:03:40 AM

Turkey doesn't have a 1st amendment.


That is irrelevant. Turkey, like most countries in the world signed on to the ICCPR. It signed on to the ECHR, and also has a domestic constitution which recognizes freedom of expression. This means that Turkey, like most of the "civilized" countries such as the US & Canada, has a lawful obligation to not only recognize, but to protect freedom of speech. It also means that Turkey, like most of the "civilized" countries such as the US & Canada, doesn't respect human rights law, either in its own constitution, or in its obligations under international covenants & treaties. Turkey, like most of the "civilized" countries such as the US & Canada, has used every trick in the book to get around its lawful obligation to human beings, to recognize & protect their human rights.

Our criticism of Turkey's human rights violations is really just a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Here are a few links that might give some of you an idea of how people practically everywhere are being screwed out of their human rights by governments whose primary ethic appears to be hypocrisy for the sake of elitism and corporate profit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Turkey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights

http://www.article19.org/pages/en/freedom-of-expression.html

Here's a link that shows specifically how much the government of Turkey values human rights. (but don't even imagine that we're much better over here):

http://hrbrief.org/2013/03/turkey-cracks-down-on-opposition-in-mass-arrest-of-lawyers-and-journalists/
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 18
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 4/30/2013 4:32:37 AM
which was the point of OP's post, to point out how important the First Amendment truly is.
What he ^ said.

then i suggest you avoid traveling to Turkey. and by all means if you do, don't try smuggling out any of the home-grown hash.


But anyway...some guy somewhere tweeted some religious criticisms, and was actually legally charged and sentenced with a crime. Why this still doesn't outrage many people is sad to me.

why am i supposed to be outraged??? they are in Turkey and I am in the US. i don't care. what am i supposed to do, protest?? let me get on that right away... i'll go stomp around the business district at noon with a cardboard sign.... "FREE SPEECH FOR TURKS!". pfft, i'm too busy arguing with our local politicos about why they shouldn't moralistically bloviate from the bully pulpit and how i shouldn't be able to smoke a joint while they're off asking everyone they meet for free money and cheating on their wives like there's no tomorrow (Mark Souder, piece of shit). maybe if the Turks were all that concerned about stuff like freedom and their so-called Article 26, they'd start their own revolution.
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 5/4/2013 7:25:28 AM
motowncowgirl:

why am i supposed to be outraged??? they are in Turkey and I am in the US. i don't care. what am i supposed to do, protest?? let me get on that right away... i'll go stomp around the business district at noon with a cardboard sign.... "FREE SPEECH FOR TURKS!". pfft, i'm too busy arguing with our local politicos about why they shouldn't moralistically bloviate from the bully pulpit and how i shouldn't be able to smoke a joint while they're off asking everyone they meet for free money and cheating on their wives like there's no tomorrow (Mark Souder, piece of shit). maybe if the Turks were all that concerned about stuff like freedom and their so-called Article 26, they'd start their own revolution.

Just make sure and remember that you almost have no right to complain about things or have a stance if you nurture this apathy too much. You can't meaningfully care about an ideal here but not there, with this person but not with that person. Yes, there is so much going on in our world, and it's such a big wide world, and we've all bitten off so much to chew up, but it's not really that hard to learn about things as you go along and lend some kind of voice when we all have so much time to, for example, talk in a POF thread about other things like when my boy/girlfriend cheated did they really cheat, is it moral to enjoy a fist up my arse, and is it ok to have sex on the first date.

"...They came after the Jews, and I was not a Jew, so I did not object. When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent, I was not a social democrat. Then they came after the Catholics, and I was not a Catholic, so I did not object. Then they came after the trade-unionists, and I was not a trade-unionist, so I did not object. And then they came after me, and there was no one left to object."

- Martin Niemöller


trailsman:

for those of you who pick up a newspaper without a teen mom or Kardashian on the cover

Ha...love it.


When harvesting tax, all Turkish citizens are equal. The tax rate is not based on religion. However, through the "Presidency of Religious Affairs" or Diyanet, Turkish citizens are not equal in the use of revenue. The Presidency of Religious Affairs, which has a budget over U.S. $ 2.5 billion in 2012, finance only Sunni Muslim worship.

Kind of like how graduates of "Christian" universities filled senior positions in the Bush Administration

These are examples of how religious institutions sneak around and undermine our attempts to establish and build a better world through secular governing, and they do it because we don't pay attention and/or don't do anything about it. And, this is one reason why I say that the majority of the religious community who claims to be benign, not fundamentalist or extremist, are guilty and actually malign, because they encourage stuff like this, either passively or actively.

Everyone should take out 6 whole big-ole minutes of your life and listen to this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc&list=PLCE72E8FD269E1CE7&index=2
 Misguided_Old_Mule
Joined: 4/19/2013
Msg: 20
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 5/8/2013 7:34:59 AM

why am i supposed to be outraged??? they are in Turkey and I am in the US. i don't care. what am i supposed to do, protest?? let me get on that right away... i'll go stomp around the business district at noon with a cardboard sign.... "FREE SPEECH FOR TURKS!"
Or as one of my teenagers pointed out to me, "You get all upset, and you talk all about it, but you don't DO anything."


so you believe in Free speech, so long as we do not have TOO MUCH free speech.
Speech has never been totally free and never will be. Meanwhile, we have to operate by the consensus of which parts should or shouldn't be regulated. Maybe that's where "talking all about it" can help.
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 21
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 5/8/2013 9:17:22 AM

Speech has never been totally free and never will be. Meanwhile, we have to operate by the consensus of which parts should or shouldn't be regulated.


LOL. I'm not going to argue with you. It is obvious you ain't no constitutional scholar.
 Misguided_Old_Mule
Joined: 4/19/2013
Msg: 22
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 5/8/2013 11:43:05 AM
Constitutional Scholars hang out on POF?
Freedom of speech is not absolute. I don't see how that's a point of contention.
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 23
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 5/8/2013 6:27:16 PM
Don't know what you mean by freedom of speech is not absolute, but this statement
Meanwhile, we have to operate by the consensus of which parts should or shouldn't be regulated.
is evidence that you have no concept of what free speech means under our constitution or how it is interpreted by the courts.
 Misguided_Old_Mule
Joined: 4/19/2013
Msg: 24
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 5/9/2013 7:25:39 AM
If you don't know, you could look it up.

There's currently a consensus in this country that child porn is a bad thing.

And, my point was that dialogue about free speech (instead of being useless) might be of some help in clarifying issues, keeping them on the radar, so that if (when) something unconstitutional does happen (or get proposed), we will notice.

Which I thought was one of the aims of this thread but maybe it's just to bicker.
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 25
latest case of Blasphemy and Freedom of Speech
Posted: 5/9/2013 7:36:27 AM
It is obvious you ain't no constitutional scholar.


meh, there is a two-pronged test for what constitutes freedom of speech (a.k.a. the "Brandenberg" test in Brandenberg v. Ohio):

1. is the speech directed at inciting lawless action or chaos

2. *AND* is there imminent danger (i.e., a time factor) of such action happening.

that's why shouting "fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected speech under the 1st amendment, you "constitutional scholar", you.



Just make sure and remember that you almost have no right to complain about things or have a stance if you nurture this apathy too much.

i'm allowed to nurture complete apathy for the Turks. it's covered by the 1st amendment.

besides, I don't have any "standing" -- in legal parlance -- to argue for the Turks' right to free speech. they have to fight their own battles. otherwise why aren't they arguing on my behalf against political corruption or whatever else is getting my goat today??? you go ahead and have a snitfit about the Turks if you want, though. that's covered by the 1st amendment also.
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