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 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 1
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Nullification Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
In 1798 there was an act (the sedition law) proposed to make it against the law to say bad things about the federal government.
When thomas jefferson disputed this tyrannical proposal, he was told to take it up with the supreme court. He realized doing that wouldn't be fair as the supreme court is federal as well, so he came up with a resolution to give the power back to the individual states.

This can and is being applied today. Don't like what the feds are doing? Want to stop it?

http://www.corbettreport.com/episode-289-solutions-nullification/

If you think you have no power and just have to take all these b.s. laws sitting down, check out what you CAN do.

Unfair laws, detentions, spying, so much tyranny going on. There is a way to say no.

Nullification is just one possible way.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 2
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Nullification
Posted: 12/19/2013 1:39:20 PM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/192387819/NSA-review-board-s-report

A link to read or download the NSA review and recommendations boards report.

You might want to read this and talk to your local rep. Your state can and is obligated to stop the feds for unjust measures.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 3
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Nullification
Posted: 12/19/2013 8:19:00 PM

In 1798 there was an act (the sedition law) proposed to make it against the law to say bad things about the federal government.
When thomas jefferson disputed this tyrannical proposal, he was told to take it up with the supreme court. He realized doing that wouldn't be fair as the supreme court is federal as well, so he came up with a resolution to give the power back to the individual states.

This can and is being applied today.


Nope, and nope. Nullification was shot down long ago, by those who actually wrote the resolutions which others used to try to push for Nullification. That is, Jefferson himself opposed nullification, as did Madison, the other author of the resolutions on which the idea of nullification was based.

As for NSA using stuff to blackmail people, I wouldn't be surprised, since that has happened before (see the history of the FBI under J.Edgar Hoover). Figuring out if this or that SPECIFIC person has been thus compromised, however, is going to be very tricky. You are likely to be tempted to attribute successful blackmail to anyone who does things you don't like, and attribute brave resistance or functional immunity (i.e. "he/she can't be blackmailed because they are sooo wonderful and pure") to anyone who you DO like.

The last time any major politician or other high official claimed to have been blackmailed, was when Perot said he had been blackmailed into leaving the Presidential race temporarily. It's one of the reasons I never voted for him or took him seriously ever again.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 4
Nullification
Posted: 12/19/2013 8:33:37 PM
Apparently the British at one time had a policy of not allowing gays in cabinet?I would bet a huge number of gov people have been compromised in honeytraps.The authorities (or operatives)don't have to leak to the press,they can leak to people close to the target just to give them a taste.It doesn't have to be admissible in court to be effective.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 5
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Nullification
Posted: 12/19/2013 10:58:55 PM
Absolutely, which is why in our own History, we did ourselves a tremendous service by working to enlighten our people NOT to be so prejudiced against various subgroups. Communists used to use proof of homosexuality, as well as proof of infidelity, to turn Americans into spies as well.

My point is, that we can all agree that while the NSA abuses (and the no-doubt many other abuses not yet discovered by other "intelligence" communities) can be used to make all our lives worse, identifying them will be extremely difficult. We can make ourselves paranoid to no positive effect, as we have done before, and declare that this or that innocent person, is under the blackmail control of the NSA (or someone using NSA gathered data).

We have to be mindful about this.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 6
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 1:28:50 AM
Igor" it's been "shot down" time and time again and brought up time and time again. If people just let this option slide, then they'll have a hard time fighting back legally. Some aren't. Remember virginia legislature and the NDAA?


HOUSE BILL NO. 1160
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
(Proposed by the House Committee for Courts of Justice
on February 10, 2012)
(Patron Prior to Substitute--Delegate Marshall, R.G.)
A BILL to prevent any agency, political subdivision, employee, or member of the military of Virginia from assisting an agency of the armed forces of the United States in the investigation, prosecution, or detention of a citizen in violation of the United States Constitution, the Constitution of Virginia, or any Virginia law or regulation.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. § 1. Notwithstanding any contrary provision of law, no agency of the Commonwealth as defined in § 8.01-385 of the Code of Virginia, political subdivision of the Commonwealth as defined in § 8.01-385 of the Code of Virginia, employee of either acting in his official capacity, or member of the Virginia National Guard or Virginia Defense Force, when such a member is serving in the Virginia National Guard or the Virginia Defense Force on official state duty, shall aid an agency of the armed forces of the United States in the conduct of the investigation, prosecution, or detention of any citizen pursuant to 50 U.S.C. § 1541 as provided by the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 (P.L. 112-18, § 1021) if such aid would place any state agency, political subdivision, employee of such state agency or political subdivision, or aforementioned member of the Virginia National Guard or the Virginia Defense Force in violation of the United States Constitution, the Constitution of Virginia, and provision of the Code of Virginia, any act of the General Assembly, or any regulation of the Virginia Administrative Code.



Any law that goes against your constitutional rights should be nullified by your representatives. The 10th amendment should cover this, if it doesn't, it's because the citizen's and their representatives are allowing themselves to be enslaved.

Sometimes you have to fight unjust laws. If you don't want to, then all I have to say is, I hope you or your loved ones have another way of protecting yourselves if they do decide that you or yours should be detained indefinitely possibly without a trial.

There are individual policemen and women who would disobey orders but counting on them to leave you alone isn't the way is should be. And the fed courts shouldn't be the ones to decide if a federal law is legal.

Why stand for this?





 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 7
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 2:41:52 AM
You can make sure your state doesn't use state resources to back up the feds. If you don't like the fed's spying on you, make sure your state doesn't co operate with spying or help them in any way. (or supply resources that make sure the spying equipment runs properly).

If you don't want to be detained by the feds, make sure your state officers aren't ordered to detain you.

Don't like body checks? Make sure that the state doesn't have or supply gloves.

These are ways that can work in the meantime until nullification is upheld by the courts.

And don't forget just because some things and people in power aren't being hauled into court now, doesn't mean it will always be that way.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 8
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 4:14:10 AM
I don't disagree with you that one ought not simply give up, if you are convinced your leaders at any level of government are wrong.

Where you are wrong, is in claiming that there exist certain actual, functioning, established methods of doing so, which have the force of law behind them. Yes, you can work to get your state reps to go back to Washington and continue to oppose whatever it is. When the Feds did a sloppy job of writing the law you oppose, as happens often enough, sometimes the Federal Law is dependent upon states to actively and voluntarily cooperate in order to make things happen. The current AHCA is a case in point. It was written into the law that each state could make certain choices. Therefore some Americans have more choices than others under it, depending on where they live.

But when you suggest something like the idea of Nullification, what you are actually talking about is encouraging the functional dissolution of the United States itself. That is what the idea of Nullification directly led to, back when it was formulated: today, we refer back to that as the Civil War, or the War of Rebellion.

Yes, of course it is an option for Americans to work to accomplish the overthrow of the Constitutional government. Just realize that that IS what you are doing, if you pretend to believe in Nullification.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 9
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 6:49:45 AM
Igor" it's been "shot down" time and time again and brought up time and time again. If people just let this option slide, then they'll have a hard time fighting back legally. Some aren't. Remember virginia legislature and the NDAA?

Well now, isn't this interesting... Whoever thought that Ms. Write would be on the same side of the fence as some of our more notorious right wingnuts...

You do realize that the same principle you advocate to "end gov't spying" also has the potential to "end anti-discrimination laws", to end "access to health care", to end "social safety nets", to end "a woman's right to control her own body", etc...

You might want to temper your zeal a bit by heeding Igor's warning here...
But when you suggest something like the idea of Nullification, what you are actually talking about is encouraging the functional dissolution of the United States itself. That is what the idea of Nullification directly led to, back when it was formulated: today, we refer back to that as the Civil War, or the War of Rebellion.

That is, unless you like where else it could and would lead... Are you prepared to condemn others to a "redneck heaven" just for the benefit of your own little bailiwick...? Are you really arguing for "I've got mine so screw everyone else"...?
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 10
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 12:07:03 PM
Yes, I do realize that nullification could be used on federal laws that some wouldn't want shot down, but that doesn't mean that those laws will be shot down and it's up to the people to make sure their state doesn't.

The umbrella of the united states doesn't have to cover all what it covers now and as you guys probably know, I'd happily go without federal government as I don't believe someone sitting in head office who hasn't a clue about the demographics of my area, who are appointed by idiots because they are owed a favour, or who are moved around in office to jobs they have no clue about because of course they have to have some kind of job. Are they really representing the interests of the citizen's? I don't think so.

I'd go further and not even have state laws, but that's just me. People seem to think laws protect them, they don't. Laws just make you go through a corrupt system loaded with corrupt individuals to fight for your rights after the fact. These ways often makes it worse for the person or is unbalanced because of costs, time and favoritism. Besides crooks don't care about the laws anyway, more often they use the red tape in their favour.

Re: those people who work at TSA , I'm sure most do not like the frisking/searching and would be happy not to have to do it, we can help them refuse by giving "outs" so that their rights are respected and save ourselves the abuse at the same time. Those sweeping laws are screwing up the main thing about what the u.s. supposedly stands for...the constitution.

If you want a federal umbrella, the constitution is already there, fight for that and while you're at it, add a couple more rights and freedoms regarding protecting your rights to your body and make damn sure these rights are protected by a citizen court, not by the "supreme court" which certainly is not unbiased.

Sweeping laws take away the freedoms of the individuals more than they protect and just because a few nut bars are out there, that doesn't mean you should give up your rights or privacy, the nut bars aren't going to be swayed by those laws anyway. It's a no win situation (except for those who abuse power or get rich protecting "you"). Besides, they aren't protecting you, they're protecting their "stuff". (property).

I'm flabbergasted that some american's are allowing this stuff to go on. Thank cripes a few people are up on it and fighting against it(whether they be "red neck", liberal, republican, democrat...).



 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 11
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 12:31:51 PM
I'd happily go without federal government...
....
I'd go further and not even have state laws,... People seem to think laws protect them, they don't. Laws just make you go through a corrupt system loaded with corrupt individuals to fight for your rights after the fact.
....
If you want a federal umbrella, the constitution is already there, fight for that and while you're at it, add a couple more regarding protecting your rights to your body.

OK, you're going to have to explain this one to me... You don't want federal gov't, you don't want state laws and you believe law is corrupt and harmful...

But... You want an enforceable Constitution, a document which is necessarily law, to protect your rights, which also necessitates law... I'm just curious as to how you plan on enforcing the rights in the Constitution if laws are corrupt and harmful...

I'm also curious as to exactly how you would go about having your rights protected before they are violated, rather than after the fact... How would you even know with any certainty that your rights were going to be violated before that actually happens...? What kind of rational, reasonable preemption would accomplish this...?

and make damn sure these rights are protected by a citizen court, not by the "supreme court" which certainly is not unbiased.

Well, you've now added this but it still doesn't answer the questions... And, it brings up yet another... What protects this "citizen's court" (whatever that is beyond a lynch mob) from the same biases and corruptions...? And how do they accomplish this task without sweeping laws to empower them...?
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 12
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 1:18:19 PM
I do not want force to be used to protect rights. I think that anyone who tries to take away the rights of the constitution should be the ones charged with breaking that right. As it stands NOW your rights are only sometimes respected by the enforcers. The enforcement allowances of the laws that supposedly protect you and your property from harm are way too sweeping and abusive. We're going at it wrong and we're going after the wrong guy. Laws do not protect, criminals do not respect them anyway. Educated, healthy secure individuals can work with agreements to co operate. We can start by making sure we have educated, healthy and secure citizen's and not desperate have-not's who now crave what the criminals push on them as must haves or else they are a loser.

A criminal can and should be held accountable but who decides that and the severity of the "punishment" or "education" should be the citizens, not a judge who can be swayed. And no one should be off limits, as it is now.
Your constitutional rights should be first and foremost. If your constitutional rights tread on someone else's constitutional right, then a community of unbiased, voluntary jurors should be the ones to decide... CASE by CASE. There can be "laws" but they would be more like guidelines and they should be taught at home and at school and upheld by parents, teachers and the community. Mediators should be agreed upon if there is a disagreement and if the problem can't be worked out by them, then that's when the jury of citizen's step in. "Punishment" should be education first, then separation from the community if they don't comply.

By allowing a corrupt system to lead the way, people get sick and do sick things and since they can't go after the guys who caused this sickness/oppression (as they are protected by laws they created) they end up taking their anger or desperation out on their fellow citizen's.

If we made sure that everyone actually had real opportunities to get what they needed, there would be less crime and we wouldn't be having to enforce laws that just make matters worse. People are social creatures and actually do want to co operate and want to be part of a healthy family or community, saying different was a lie fed for ages to scare you into being oppressed and frightened into giving part your hard work dollars to support them that don't feel they have to work but should sit on their ass and govern. These greedo nuts want you to fight each other, blame each other. And they want you to pay for their fake protection/enforcement.

Get rid of these guys as they are your real criminals and give people their rights back and then there wouldn't be so many desperate thieves, junkies or angry people hurting you and yours.

Jail the real criminals...those that caused and cause the messes in the first place.


regarding a flat tax, kind of. I think there might be a flat "tax" and user fees /subscription soon. Like when have your doctors opt out of accepting the minimal pay your health care umbrella offers and demand you "chip in" some. more.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 13
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 2:10:38 PM

I do not want force to be used to protect rights.

Fair enough...

But, generally speaking, you will be leaving everyone's rights simply "swinging in the wind" because all of this:

I think that anyone who tries to take away the rights of the constitution should be the ones charged with breaking that right. As it stands NOW your rights are only sometimes respected by the enforcers. The enforcement allowances of the laws that supposedly protect you and your property from harm are way too sweeping and abusive. We're going at it wrong and we're going after the wrong guy. Laws do not protect, criminals do not respect them anyway. Educated, healthy secure individuals can work with agreements to co operate. We can start by making sure we have educated, healthy and secure citizen's and not desperate have-not's who now crave what the criminals push on them as must haves or else they are a loser.

A criminal can and should be held accountable but who decides that and the severity of the "punishment" or "education" should be the citizens, not a judge who can be swayed. And no one should be off limits, as it is now.
Your constitutional rights should be first and foremost. If your constitutional rights tread on someone else's constitutional right, then a community of unbiased, voluntary jurors should be the ones to decide... CASE by CASE. There can be "laws" but they would be more like guidelines and they should be taught at home and at school and upheld by parents, teachers and the community. Mediators should be agreed upon if there is a disagreement and if the problem can't be worked out by them, then that's when the jury of citizen's step in. "Punishment" should be education first, then separation from the community if they don't comply.

WILL require at least some level of force either to maintain or prevent...

As an example, how do you propose to "separate" non-compliant individuals from the community if they refuse to "separate" themselves...? You could move the entire community but how will you prevent the determined non-compliant ones from going with you...

Or, as another, how do you ensure there is no bias or corruption in a volunteer jury...? How can you ensure 'equal treatment' before these juries...?

People are social creatures and actually do want to co operate and want to be part of a healthy family or community...

Generally speaking... but thousands of years has also shown that once they form these communities they envariable enter into conflict with neighbouring communities over everything from differing values to limited resources to simple greed, particularly so where there is no means of requiring cooperation... How do you resolve conflict between neighbouring communities if one is unwilling to voluntarily cooperate...? What do you do if the neighbouring community decides that their right to a shared head-water exceeds yours...? How will a resolution that respects everyone's rights be derived and upheld when one or both have other ideas...?

saying different was a lie fed for ages to scare you into being oppressed and frightened into giving part your hard work dollars to support them that don't feel they have to work but should sit on their ass and govern.

It must have been a pretty tasteless entree because I don't recall ever eating it... And I would surmise that they must be regularly serving it after its 'best before date'...

Jail the real criminals...those that caused and cause the messes in the first place.

Ummm... I think that just may require laws, and pretty sweeping ones at that... Not to mention that it is a prime example of 'use of force'...
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 14
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 2:21:38 PM
Yeah. Again, you don't seem to recognize the factual history behind the way things are.

I'll just mention a couple of tidbits:

The reason we HAVE the existing courts systems we do, is because we TRIED the "citizens decide everything together" bit, and two main problems came up. One, most citizens were too busy dealing with the normal daily struggles of life to take time out to be judges and juries. Same reason why "Jury Duty" gets joked about as one of the Civic Duties that everyone tries to side step. The second, was that between the amount of relative ignorance of your average fellow peasant about whatever the subject of the 'trial' was about, and the ability of rich or powerful or dangerous people to influence the decisions of those same fellow citizens, "Justice" was found to be a laughable fiction.

Same thing with all the levels of government. Our forefathers and mothers didn't set them up to annoy us (well, most of them didn't) , they set them up because THEY decided it was easier and better than doing everything themselves.

Yeah sure, having a government and or a legal system is just like owning a nice car: it takes constant maintenance, repairs, refueling, cleaning, and every now and then it reaches the point where you just want to push it off a cliff. But without it, you are stuck with just the few fellow peasants in your local area to get anything and everything done, and unless you are incredibly lucky, those local fellow citizens are not the exact set of thoughtful and caring geniuses you need, to make your life work as well as you think it should.

Frankly, it sounds as though what you want is Communism. That's what that was all about: setting up lots of small autonomous collectives, who would own everything they needed in order to be self-sustaining, and everyone performing whatever tasks were required from one moment to the next, in order to get all the "chores" done. No one ever actually got around to setting up a nation-sized set of such collectives, so we have no examples in the past that we can point to as validation or rejection of the idea.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 15
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 2:38:41 PM

As an example, how do you propose to "separate" non-compliant individuals from the community if they refuse to "separate" themselves...? You could move the entire community but how will you prevent the determined non-compliant ones from going with you...
.

You offer the "criminal" (who usually is desperate) a safe alternative to getting what they want and you reason with them. If they aare so messed up they get violent, you get health pros/protectors to gently take them away to a hospital/secure setting that doesn't make them crazier but calms them. Then you give them what they need so they can really hear you and the victims or read the victims impact statements. These "criminals" can be shamed into doing the right thing if it means they get to be part of the community sooner than later. Usually these spazzing out types have medical issues that need addressing in a safe place.


Or, as another, how do you ensure there is no bias or corruption in a volunteer jury...?
They insure it themselves as after the fact they still have to live in the neighborhood and they don't want to be shunned either. People aren't as bad as you make them out to be.


How can you ensure 'equal treatment' before these juries...?
The accused are not put on trial and no one knows who it is, the "crime" is put to the jury.


Generally speaking... but thousands of years has also shown that once they form these communities they envariable enter into conflict with neighbouring communities over everything from differing values to limited resources to simple greed, particularly so where there is no means of requiring cooperation...


for thousands of years greedy "rulers" ruled, don't allow that to happen anymore. And today there IS means of requiring co operation.
There is enough resources if we don't let these greedos contaminate it or hoard it for themselves. The community can and will co operate with other communities. They have before. It's the corruption and divide and conquer thinking that SOME do that ruin it for the rest. We can stop them, there is more of us than them. What is it now just over 500 to millions?



Ummm... I think that just may require laws, and pretty sweeping ones at that... Not to mention that it is a prime example of 'use of force'...

Not sweeping laws just a list of their crimes and an option of correcting them, if they won't, then yep, off they go with the assistance of handlers that aren't allowed to use excessive force.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 16
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Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 2:48:01 PM
Igor: It has not been tried, there was always someone in power and there was always a payoff.
If citizen's were healthy and allowed to do what they wanted to do with their lives, on their own time, without threat, without struggle they would and do co operate and volunteer. Struggling to survive is not necessary anymore.

If we stopped the greedos from poisoning our fellow citizen's with their toxic products then we wouldn't have so many ignorant people.

Frankly your are wrong that I want communism. And a healthy community doesn't need to resort to that. We can and do support ourselves and those less able to and we can own stuff by ourselves if we want.

The examples of this working don't make it to your corrupt news.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 17
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 3:49:04 PM

You offer the "criminal" (who usually is desperate) a safe alternative to getting what they want and you reason with them.

And if they don't consider your "reason" to be reasonable...? Or simply choose to be contrary...?

If they aare so messed up they get violent, you get health pros/protectors to gently take them away to a hospital/secure setting that doesn't make them crazier but calms them. Then you give them what they need so they can really hear you and the victims or read the victims impact statements.

Again, force and coercion... And you will need laws to empower it...

These "criminals" can be shamed into doing the right thing if it means they get to be part of the community sooner than later.

So why hasn't this worked to any real degree so far...?

Usually these spazzing out types have medical issues that need addressing in a safe place.

Oh, I see... So your community will simply declare persistently non-compliant people to be "mentally disturbed", possibly for no other reason that they just don't see the utopia in the scheme that you see, and lock them away until they "comply" with your "treatment"... Not much use of force there, no sirree...

They insure it themselves as after the fact they still have to live in the neighborhood and they don't want to be shunned either.

Again, why hasn't this worked so far...? And what if they really don't care what their neighbours think about it...?

People aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

And they aren't as "good" as you make them out to be... If they were don't you think we would have gotten there at some point in the last, oh say, 10,000 years...?

And today there IS means of requiring co operation.

What IS this mysterious means of "requiring cooperation" that involves no force...?

Is it this:

There is enough resources if we don't let these greedos contaminate it or hoard it for themselves.

Will you deny them their basic needs by controlling access to resources necessary for basic survival... Starve them into submission...?

How are you going to "require cooperation" without force...? Or is this a case of it not being force, or at least being "reasonable" force, because it just happens to coincide with your beliefs... THEIR force is "bad force" but YOUR force is "good force"...?

Not sweeping laws just a list of their crimes and an option of correcting them, if they won't, then yep, off they go with the assistance of handlers that aren't allowed to use excessive force.

So it's not that you actually are morally and ethically opposed to the use of force and coercion to gain social compliance... You just want it to be YOUR force and coercion rather than theirs... Does that just about cover it...?
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 18
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History
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 4:04:57 PM
OK Joe, I've tried to explain that it hasn't been done before, it is being done in certain areas now and it's working, and the resources are there for it to be done world wide at a community level at this point in time if we get together and work towards it and quit allowing the criminals to be at the helm.

This is not about what's best for me or about that I should be the one to decide, it's a community decision...a decision made by a group of healthy citizen's who have the needs of the individual , the victim and the community in mind, who will try for the good of all to make the decision making process as fair for all as it can be so that the use of "force" or co ercion will only be only as a last resort and in a careful manner so that the perp. has a chance to co operate get well again and then participate in the community again. Simple.

Now quit making it out like I have a rainbow that needs pissing on. I don't. I've been offering reasonable solutions with what I believe can be accomplished at this time or in the near future.

If you want to keep the status quo, go right ahead, but you'll get no thanks from me.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 19
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 4:29:53 PM
Now quit making it out like I have a rainbow that needs pissing on. I don't. I've been offering reasonable solutions with what I believe can be accomplished at this time or in the near future.

I would argue that 1) yes, you do ("have a rainbow") and 2) the solution isn't as reasonable as you think it is...

Don't get me wrong... I have no issue with the whole 'self-sustaining community' idea... It does and can work on the small scale (a population of tens to a few hundreds) AND where the surrounding communities are bound by a larger entity (like a fed gov't) to respect each other community (like happens where communities like you speak of exist now)... It WILL NOT work on the large scale across a nation (a population of millions or billions) with numerous 'independent' communities bound only be their good will to each other because people, while capable of great care and affection, are not consistent in who they grant that care and affection to (and it isn't because they have been brainwashed by the "greedos")...

You seem to truly believe that it is only about "greedy deviants" screwing with a "loving, caring population"... You clearly haven't been paying too much attention (how many ordinary people are there here who are all about "I want mine, screw you". Guess what, that isn't brainwashing by the "greedos", it's their natural temperament)...
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 20
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History
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 5:00:33 PM

and it isn't because they have been brainwashed by the "greedos")...


YES it is.

I worked in disaster relief/rescue/enviroment clean up/crowd control/security/transportation and national security ( for a newly privatized government office. ) The propaganda that was fed to us about how people would behave in certain emergency circumstances was NOT how they acted in an emergency in real life situations.

99% co operated and helped out. They put themselves in dangerous situations, got dirty, led the way, looked after the feeble or confused, gave up personal belongings and they also help diffuse the tempers/panic attacks of the FEW that "lost it"/

They would have been fine without me "enforcing" anything on them and they were. Thank goodness I didn't fall for the "enforcement" teaching ways, that would have made matters worse.

People just need to be educated on what to do or not to do. Which is how it should be done. The people don't need me pointing a gun at them or strip searching them or beating them up or spying on them. We as a race NATURALLY co operate when we are healthy. There is no reason for us not to be healthy.

You may have fallen for the "need to be controlled" but I and others thankfully haven't been. Is your community that bad? If so, why not try to fix it instead of arguing for your limitations?.

Those that say, " I want, screw you" are sick, (their brains aren't working properly). The reason? They have been fed garbage and it affects their brain. Read about refined sugars, toxins, scripts, televalium etc. ) It makes them paranoid and they panic and they hoard and because are continuously bombarded with with "fear of lack" propaganda, they can't see a way out.

I'm here to say there is a way out and I'm offering solutions and topics to debate so that others will see. I'm not about creating fantasies, I want it real.

The old ways of doing things can be obsolete, if people would start with getting to know their neighbors, trusting again, sharing again so they see there is enough and so they can quit paying the crooks that are breaking their spirit and killing their bodies.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 21
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 5:25:58 PM

I worked in disaster relief/rescue/enviroment clean up/crowd control/security/transportation and national security ( for a newly privatized government office. ) The propaganda that was fed to us about how people would behave in certain emergency circumstances was NOT how they acted in an emergency in real life situations.

THAT'S the basis for your extrapolation from the extreme to the general...? Do you REALLY think that is a rational extrapolation...? Honestly...?

You may have fallen for the "need to be controlled" but I and others thankfully haven't been. Is your community that bad? If so, why not try to fix it instead of arguing for your limitations?.

Those that say, " I want, screw you" are sick, (their brains aren't working properly). The reason? They have been fed garbage and it affects their brain. Read about refined sugars, toxins, scripts, televalium etc. ) It makes them paranoid and they panic and they hoard and because are continuously bombarded with with "fear of lack" propaganda, they can't see a way out.


So everyone of the people who make your 'dream' unlikely and impossible have "brain problems" forced on them by the "greedos" and the way to fix it is to force the change on them (this would be your "treatment" for those with "defective thought processes"), "hospitalize" them up until they "come around" and finally see "just how sick they are" and "see that you were right"...

And you accuse the "greedos" of wanting to brainwash, coerce and control people...?!?
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 22
view profile
History
Nullification
Posted: 12/20/2013 5:51:11 PM
Yes I do and there have been other situations besides my experience. Why don't you think it's a rational extrapolation?

Not all have brain problems forced on them, some take that poison willingly. But kids, yeah, we're in for big trouble if we keep allowing this crap to go on.

Do you know what candida is, what is does to people? what it feeds on? Educate yourself, there is an epidemic and it's making people not think straight, obese and addicted.

People are being put in prison more than anytime in history, the hospitals too and the institutions.

They should be brought back to their families and community to get well and make a go of co operating. Jailing them should be the last resort (after sending some off to be by themselves or ignoring them) if they refuse help. Outside is usually better.

I help fix the problem by example and sharing info and boycotting toxins, and writing and putting my time in debating with people who aren't like minded, even though it's way more fun to hand on internet or in person with people whom I have something in common with but there is no need to convert the converted. Hence being on pof forums.

Hopefully I'll get to chat instead of debate with some from here on another site of like minded individuals one day. Or share food with at a festival where we celebrate another success?

Hopefully we won't be meeting in a hospital or jail.

Nothing wrong with keeping it small, I don't need the feds. Do you?

Whats your argument why we supposedly can't co operate now?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 23
view profile
History
Nullification
Posted: 12/21/2013 7:47:46 AM

Nothing wrong with keeping it small, I don't need the feds. Do you?


Yes, and so do you. You don't realize it, for the same reason most people who think that we don't need more than half the governments do so.

Your little coop scenario WILL work fine, as long as none of it's participants get either greedy or careless and upset the balance of everything. No question there.

But your commune's existing economy is going to have been built upon the basic sub structure of roads, communications, exchange currency, and so on, which are only available to them because larger government entities have existed heretofore.

Your friends will be speaking some form of English, because the larger governments have prevented others from subjugating you. A small cooperative will not be able to be TRULY self-sufficient, unless it happens to be situated on one of the very few pieces of territory that includes a full complement of all required resources, and which is immune to shifting climates. Without the protection of larger entities, all places like that will be coveted by others, and battled over.

We have seen this as the endlessly repeated way things have happened in the past. It is the reason why larger governments were brought into existence at all, over and over again. Even "bandit" societies eventually decided that organized governments were needed to maintain themselves.

Your fantasy is fine, but it is based upon your unwillingness or your ignorance of what is REALLY required as support, before such systems are viable and sustainable.

I don't at all oppose anyone creating a sub community such as you describe, I've seen it done successfully many times as well. The thing is, that ALL of them rely on the rest of the world around them to continue to deal with and maintain the larger governments that those groups try to ignore. This is why they are justly taxed just as much as those who don't do as they do.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 24
Nullification
Posted: 12/21/2013 10:34:46 AM
Wouldn't Israel be an example of a bunch of collectives that outgrew this simplistic arrangement?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 25
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History
Nullification
Posted: 12/21/2013 11:47:15 AM
Not sure which Israel you are referring to.

Just in case, there are places where there are both small collectives AND a central government.

And, in a way, lots of even the larger Empires of the past, have been built by having local autonomy, with overall Imperial fealty and taxes.

Lots of governments have been designed from the outset to have collectives of a SORT as their sub units. What hasn't lasted, are large arrays of self-sufficient, small scale communes, with nothing but good will allowing them to get along. They last only as long as no challenges come along (natural or man-made), then they either fall under someone elses rule, or turn themselves into something bigger.

The United States initially hoped to be a bunch of independent states each going their own way entirely. The Confederation was that attempt at "all authority being local." It failed completely, and so in 1789, we got the Constitution and the much stronger Federal government we have now.

There's a very similar fantasy to this one, amongst certain members of the very wealthy upper classes. They also fantasize that because of the wonderful inherent good will of rich people, that there is no longer any need at all for government regulation of industry or private investment. It's the exact same kind of wishful thinking, and often willful ignorance about just how much of a role the government has and does play in why they seem to be having so much fun, and could do so much better if they just didn't have to attend to and pay for those pesky inspectors and other federal functionaries. They aren't aware that the reason why other vendors sell them quality supplies for their own businesses, is because that pesky interfering government they so hate, MAKES the other vendors behave honestly.
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