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 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 1
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Some join political parties, (rep,dem.lib,independent,ndp,pc, green,com,) some seek out groups that downsize gov't (downsize dc,stop harper, etc.), some drop out of the political system altogether, some try to make the changes they want on their own without government association and or interference at all.

I'm sure there are more. (feel free to inform).

A LOT of our goals are the same and if we would speak of what we are striving for, maybe then we could see that a LOT of the goals that some people are working towards are the same goals that many are working towards. (no matter what avenue they are choosing).

This may put a stop to the quarreling and/or bullying, (strife) that seems to be the result when we concentrate on our differences instead of our similarities.

Maybe these types of exercises will help put an end to the divide and conquer (from within and from outside) mentality that has been hurting us all. (whether we acknowledge it or not).

ME? I'm pretty much for the constitution and the canadian charter of rights. I do believe that some of the amendments should be fought (16. 17.) and that certain aspects of the right to bear arms should be regulated as well as a few more changes that I believe should be made to the charter and to the constituion that I'll add later.

I will add now that these rights should be for ALL, no matter what our nationality.

My way of getting what I believe is needed is to promote anarchy (in the true sense of the word) as well as work with those who are in government that actually walk the walk, and have the good of all in mind, in the meantime. In other words...running a parallel system until the systems changes while coming together for the betterment of all.

Can we forumites share our similarities and our methods (our groups, links whatever helps) so that maybe the change we want to see in the world will have a bigger voice in spite of our differences?

Can these types of threads and can our posts help avoid "strife" amongst us?

Can we take this and use it in the real world?

I hope so, and I'm into trying. Anyone else?

(I realise that some like to keep their views private, and to those I have to ask, 'why is that'? Is it really necessary or is this something that was taught but doesn't help at all? Or does help you? Everyone?
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 2
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 1:37:48 PM
OP, In my opinion just the fact that we're here talking about the many issues and affairs of the world is a progressive step. Yes, I said progressive.

As in advancing. Towards the future. Hopefully, learning from our past and then applying our knowledge to improve our lot as a people. The internet has enabled us to talk to others and share viewpoints. Maybe not always agree but at least enabling us to see anothers viewpoint.

Who knows, someday the internet could replace our State Representatives. After all, They simply take the wishes of those who voted them in and try to convert them into law. I bet a well designed website could do the same thing ?

Everyone in the district could vote on whatever business was at hand. However the vote went would be how your "Representative" would vote in a housewide vote. No lobbiests, no knot headed obstructionists. And, it just might cut down the people in Govt. by making everyone become more participatory in the Governmental system.

Imagine that, cutting down the size of Govt. by getting more of "its people" to participate in it.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 3
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 1:52:32 PM
I think you're on to something.

Here in the U.S. it's easy to think of us as being completely polarized, roughly split down the middle between conservatives and liberals.

And yet so many of us share the same values. We love our families and want to feel secure in our ability to provide for them. I've yet to meet a conservative who hates clean water or clean air, nor a liberal who hates having money in their pocket. Yet both sides consistently accuse the other of being nothing but a money hungry capitalist or socialist tree hugger.

We argue tooth and nail over the solutions. More regulation or less, more taxes or less, more money here, less money there, build or don't build a pipeline, it goes on and on. But often at the core of our disputes are simply two different approaches to embrace the same values.

Liberals may abhor the number of people in poverty and want more funding for social services. Conservatives may also wish less were in poverty but insist the way out is for them to work their way out, not give them something free they had to work for. So we battle over funding those services or not rather than sitting down together to address the root of the poverty. That's just one example.

If we could place more emphasis on shared values, then maybe focus research on how best to support those values, just maybe we wouldn't be at each others throats so much.
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 4
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 2:12:50 PM
#3, I agree with your outlook. I also prefer to think positively. And, to try and focus on that which we have in common....

Like our country. And it's crumbling infrastructure. Who would'nt want to travel on smooth roads, safe bridges? Who does'nt like clean water at the flip of a tap? Yet, all the infrastructure that makes this possible is aging and many times in need of replacement.

Instead of arguing about it, we need to fix it. When our Pres speaks of an infrastructure repair bill that would not just fix our country but employ many where's the downside? Who pays? I would and I already do just to maintain that which should have long ago been replaced.

I'd say that is a common point everyone needs. Directly or indirectly. It's a big part of what made us who we are and should be taken care of.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 5
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 2:53:53 PM

Imagine that, cutting down the size of Govt. by getting more of "its people" to participate in it.


I totally agree with this and I know that there are people working on such a site and there can be measures in place to make sure it is fair.

I would like to add that the area "reps." do not necessarily have to be by state exclusively, we can add zones within the states as there may be more than one affected zone in a state that should have a say ,and if the zones affected end up stopping something from passing, then we should come up ways to satisfy them or look at other proposals.


As to projects:

Maybe this has to be done in a rotating project form, annually? ( and tried out first as a mock up?)

Using this "mock up" way as an introduction to change will enable every zone and state can see what is being proposed for next year in ALL areas as well as in their own so that no one will be quick to pull a NIMBY because they can see we all are giving a little to get a lot.

Hopefully what is to be voted on has a clear and concise FACT sheet written by "professionals" (educated or not as experience counts too) so that when they vote , they are educated with the facts beforehand.

Everyone can post pros and cons to this fact sheet. (nothing but PROs and CONS) for the year in advance. Extensions would only be allowed if all agree.


drmfsltd:

I agree we should get on to fixing our infrastructure and while we are doing it update it to the safest, greenest, THEN the most cost effective. I would be proud to work on a project like that ,as well as happily pay my share of taxes towards it and fair wages.

We could do the same with this, every zone/state put in what they need done next year and we vote on the best way to do it.

Yep, it's common sense, pay now or pay later. Adding in preventative and green measures now saves money in the long term so let's do it right the first time.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 6
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 3:02:54 PM
I'm going to come up with a post about pipelines and tar sands as an example, just need a bit of time here. Anyone else feel free to start without me.
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 7
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 3:39:20 PM
Pipelines... Another example of crumbling infrastructure. I believe most pipelines are under private ownership? But, are Governmentally regulated.

With the increased incidence of oil spills lately it makes one wonder who is dropping the ball. I'd say that before any new pipelines are built the already existing ones should be inspected, repaired and or upgraded. Make the oil industry prove it's concerned about the environment by maintaining and improving what's already there.

If that shows promise then maybe let a new pipeline be built. Provided all parts meet or exceed specs. And that an ongoing inspection/maintenance program is adhered to. In otherwords, do it without cutting corners and take care of it.

We run on oil. At least for now we do. I say use and utilize our recources. But, do it wisely and honestly with regards to regulatory compliance.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 8
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 7:38:28 PM
Yes, they are under private ownership, (chinese, u.s. canadian, maybe others) and they are provincially regulated through the national energy board, each provinces energy board and territorial energy boards and off shore energy boards as well as northern area energy boards.

The people that are on these boards most often from energy corporations who still have an interest in making sure that the corporations make money.

I say utilizing our resources this way is too dangerous. Just the run off and the waste of water and the carbon footprint is causing major problems as it is now.

Yes, we should fix everything we have going in the meantime as well as look to other sources of energy. There are many.

I think that we should leave the bitumen in the ground. If we pipe it to other countries, we risk leaks and spills, tanker accidents and increased tanker traffic as well as it will be shipped to countries where the refinery environment laws are not strict. This affects us all in the form of pollution as well.

The waste from the tar sands is causing cancers, seizures, mental illness, skin problems, liver problems, diabetes... and it's polluting all waters (underground, above,rivers, streams, oceans).

The pollution will wipe out viable and environmentally safe ways to make a living. It will also hurt the economy's and employment numbers of other countries like mexico and venesuala which are having a hard enough time as it is.

The corporations lie about the safety and their clean up record sucks.

The animals and our circle of life would be threatened even more.

All for what? a few jobs? a tiny bit of money comparatively, (to the damage done and to what the corps. will make).

There is not a need to do this. china and the u.s. and canada can concentrate on using solar power and hemp and wind and hydro and other bio oils.

We can conserve more and plan our cities better.

This whole petro use is outdated and should be phased out. Quickly.

Therefor, since I live in an area that will be affected, (all of us do because of the air pollution and our need for clean water)I would vote NO.

Since there are a lot of communities that would be effected I'd be a lot of people vote NO too.

Fishermen would Vote NO.

School teachers would vote NO.

Doctors would vote NO.

and so on and so on...

Some people may vote yes.

The first nation territories have a say too and most people say NO.

(By not listening to the first nation's people, we would be breaking the treaties, therefor breaking the law.)

So, in this people participant, zone voting, knowledge based system, the people affected would get what they want and the corporations would be forced to start working on projects that we want.

As it stands now, our gov't's are signing deals with the corporations and changing environmental laws (that we worked hard for), breaking laws, and they are threatening the people who stand against their corruption and greed.

They gotta go.

If we are forced to find other means to make money and supply clean energy...

Good! our children will thank us.

When it come to our health, our children, our planet and our future, we almost certainly will agree once we go over the facts, no matter our differences.

We have to make sure we are getting the facts, and then make an informed decision.

We can do this and a hell of a lot easier and safer than what we are doing and putting up with now.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 9
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Posted: 2/2/2014 8:20:47 PM
you can't plan on people voting yes or no according to their job title, people are going to vote for what gives them the most and not really care about the masses. I try to think along the lines of what I want and what's best for the masses, since in reality I'm not that important in the big picture. But most people, a whole lot of people are not going to vote with what seems to be right for most, they are going to vote for what let's them keep the most in their pockets. Also you can never be sure what someone's vote is on a ballot, no matter what comes out of their mouth.

I don't want to see a big overthrown government happening, I sure don't want Joe Angry getting an important job in government if he doesn't know what he's doing. Sure, I'd love to get rid of corruption but I do not want to do more harm than good. Almost everything I read about a big change would do more harm than good. Greed & corruption are certainly nasty, but sometimes they get more done than a nice, decent, well-meaning person could ever do.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 10
Same, same but different
Posted: 2/2/2014 10:08:42 PM
the fact we can come to an Internet (and before that, a newspaper ed column or whatever)and vent, means we have an outlet for our anger. some will argue having an outlet keeps us from actually doing something that works.

the sad fact is, groups get members by promoting this idea that, "no one is in your corner! join us, send some money, and finally someone will be with you to fight THEM." there's more to be gained (by these groups) promoting the differences than by promoting the similiarities. but, individuals then take up the idea--they put a label on you, and when you try to argue, "hey, you do the same thing but call it something different, we're a lot a like, why not agree with me?" they fail/refuse to do so.

i can listen to any ethnic working class group, grouse about another ethnic group, how much their food smells, etc...and its like, "don;t you realize you're living paycheck to paycheck like they are?" to quote Marx, there is no class consciousness. until recently, the middleclass could look at the poor and not see they (middleclass) were one hospital bill away from joining ranks, and maybe shouldn't turn their back so easily.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 11
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Same, same but different
Posted: 2/3/2014 1:28:41 AM
So we battle over funding those services or not rather than sitting down together to address the root of the poverty.


What do you believe is the root of poverty?

I believe the root of poverty is greed and military power tripping.

It is not an accident or a result of anything natural.

I know that those in power make sure their big business interests (financing, higher education, energy, food, drugs, entertainment, pharmaceuticals, sex, innovation, the military and all it's sectors and the propaganda system) offer the highest paying jobs to make sure we are willing to work for them. Anyone who is doing any other job gets paid little or if they don't help support their interests, they are expendable. Because they can't outright kill them here, they are set up to live in poverty.

To get more people to do these jobs for them they bombard us with their media and entice us with their products that will supposedly make our lives easier or more fun or they get us addicted to things so that we ache for them or they shame us into wanting them (or else we are losers), then they make these things expensive so we are always striving.

To keep the little people happy enough, they make sure they can afford their basic needs, a few baubles and have enough opportunities to give them hope.

The ones who offer nothing or who won't work for them? They get poverty, jail time or death.

To keep this all going, they lie to us about threats from abroad and threats from within (as fear motivates). They stage and do terrible things when we feel independent so we count on them. They do this so we will go to war for them or police for them. They want us to trust no one else's ways but theirs. They want us to believe we need them, when in actuality, they need us.

If another country is doing well, they get us to attack that country for them by lying to us about how the poor country is being taken over by another super power when really that supposed super power country is not a threat nor has it threatened.

They campaign to make us believe what we have been doing is the best way to do things and other ways are bent or less desirable.

They wipe out the infrastructure and kill the leaders of simple countries because they are afraid that we might see the sense in their ways. They make sure we don't see the good by restricting us or by bombing the hell out of the simple countries so there is nothing left to envy.

Poverty is a sick result of sick men and women in power positions that we allow to continue.

This is why I will not work for them, by supporting them I am putting and keeping billions in poverty.

I hope you guys understand and check out what I'm saying.

I'm not sorry if this disturbs you, I'd be more sorry if it didn't.

I hope that you can hear that I am not lying to you and that I'm not a crazy conspiracy theorist. They are the crazies and there is a conspiracy, they started it and are still using it to get richer and keep them in power.

They should not be in power, we all should, and we can.

There are other people who know what I am saying is true, from all walks of life, from the west and other countries. I'm going to count on these people to help and I'm going to help them, even if we are different, we aren't that much different we all want peace and we are fed up with war.

A military based nation is not what you or anyone else needs.
 NDTfan
Joined: 6/5/2012
Msg: 12
Same, same but different
Posted: 2/3/2014 6:22:46 PM
I'm very politically active and even though I lean liberal I'm not so strident that I don't listen to reason. I'm pro-gun (with appropriate control), pro death penalty, tough on crime, etc.

I'm also an admin for a very active political group in our province. We made international news last year, and I think the thing I dislike the most are the cheerleaders for both sides. There are a LOT of people who like to pigeon hole themselves into con or lib and wear it like a badge. They are also the most likely to dismiss the other side (regardless of how good the information is) as being either lib or con.

It's bullsh*te, but it's not going to stop until people talk issues, and not team sports.

In our case, we were successful. Our constant pressure on the premier of our province led to her stepping down a full year and half early. We did up infographics, videos, and posted things like interviews, videos, etc. We organized protests and showed up at events to ask questions publicly that were being side stepped. We did flyer drops, mostly made up of her inner circle's quotes and how they jived with voting records. We spread videos from the House like the one where a member actually said that the electorate is spoiled and how we should all have to live on welfare for a year so that we can be grateful for what the government was willing to give. He said it in response to moving one of our marine SARS teams to another province..... one entire part of our province is out in the middle of the NA, and he thought we were spoiled because we expected rescues in the North Atlantic within 3 hours. One of the final straws in a series of missteps is when our electrical company did rolling blackouts when we were getting temps of -50 with the wind chill and she said it was no big deal. People died trying to stay warm, there was a surge in house fires and hospitalizations. No big deal indeed.

We are working to overturn a bill that allowed our government to operate in secrecy for two years, and to turf the yes men who assisted her. One of our members is actually a moderately conservative member of her caucus who got fed up with her leadership, and we're supporting him because of his overall record on issues.

It is possible. We just have to ignore the one-issue id10ts.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 13
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Posted: 8/11/2014 5:51:50 PM
It seems there may be light...

Are we actually starting to agree that israel's excessive use of force and the targeting of innocents is wrong? That hamas should quit firing rockets? That peace does not come by bombing or imprisoning civilian's?

Left? right? center? anarchists?

All nations (except the u.s.) signed on to have the bombings in gaza investigated. It's a far cry from getting those that order the bombings arrested for war crimes (from both sides) but PEOPLE have had enough and are making it a political talking point as to how they would vote. They are also demanding boycotts and divestments and sanctions. (I'm not in support of all sanctions as I believe most sanctions hurt innocent people who feel the repercussions mush more than the leaders.) Hopefully we can get our representatives to quit selling them arms though. (I'd like to see the sale of arms outside ones country illegal).

If we took the profit out of war maybe there would be less war?

Maybe more u.s. citizen's can start demanding obama, congress and your reps stop supporting the bombing of innocents, the sale of weapons, and demand an investigation as well?

Maybe canadian's can get harper and some members of parliament to stop their support?

All citizen's from all countries can demand the same.

Maybe an arms embargo is something we can all agree on no matter what race, religion, gender, political association?
 ClooneysTutor
Joined: 3/30/2014
Msg: 14
Same, same but different
Posted: 8/16/2014 9:29:52 AM
History is in fact repeating itself.

Several historians have drawn parallels between America and the Roman Empire.

We've overextended our influence overseas, acceptance of homosexuality and public displays of violence (i.e. MMA fighting).

I'm not saying homosexual behavior is right or wrong, just drawing a parallel to the Roman Empire.

I wouldn't be surprised if America collapses internally and not from an external threat. The Roman Empire collapsed into the dark ages.

America will likely have its own dark ages.

Sure, this sounds extreme, but think about the border states complaining about the Feds not doing enough to protect their borders.

I can foresee an event that would lead to a state trying to secede from the Union, say Texas, with the international community supporting its independence.

Extreme? Maybe, but if we are truly similar to the Roman Empire, then it sounds like a possibility.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 15
Same, same but different
Posted: 8/16/2014 8:35:50 PM
all empires fall. Its simply a matter of human behavior--we reach our zenith, and then we get lazy. We take the easy path, rest on our laurels, maybe send minority groups or mercenaries (ie, Hessians) to fight our wars to keep our empires running, which means "We" don't get to really see the cost of what we take for granted. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Persians, later the French under Napoleon and then the British "the sun never sets"Empire, they all learned the same problem:

invading is cheap, you can eat what you catch. Maintaining an empire via occupation, is a damn costly business. No one loves kicking money upstairs, any more than we did pre 1776. Making it worse was those French philosophes talking about inalienable rights of the individual nonsense. Suddenly, everyone has a reason to become a nationalist, even if they're accepting weapons from the communists.

America is leaving the age of cheap energy and a baby boomer population willing to buy en masse, the two real reasons we had our historic economy. Rome took a long time to fall b/c there wasn't any organized alternative to take over and provide security in Europe. America will take at least as long to fall, but once there's an alternative, globalization and the Internet (which, ironically, will literally televise the revolution, or maybe it will be Twitter by then) will spread the idea that its time to turn in your greenbacks for whatever the hot new currency is, and embrace that country.

It won't happen in our lifetime, just like America didn't rise to power in our lifetime. I'd love to see the idiots in Texas secede, just to see how much it will cost them to patrol their border, among everything else (do they really want to use our currency, which they will have no ability to inflate to pay the bills? I doubt it). or they let in all the illegal immigrants, like Saudi Arabia does to to handle all the lower paying jobs. I predict they'd be crying to come back within 5 years after getting what they want.
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