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Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 2
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Trying to Make Heads or Tails Page 1 of 1    
The two of you seem to be equally "twitchy." All that back and forth, approaching and then running away.

If it were myself in one of those roles, and given your ages, I would suspect that there was more of fantasization to what each of you thought about the other, than there was of reality, no matter how many nights you spent together.

The details you present here indicate that you are trying to be extremely analytic in your approach to finding a mate. This always has the possibility of backfiring completely, for two reasons.

One, because when it comes to love and desire, the whole is never simply the sum of all the parts. It is the entirety of the person that makes or breaks things like attraction, not the individual elements. This is why almost everyone can name a celebrity who is technically gorgeous, but for whom they feel no attraction at all.

The second reason is more subtle, and more important at the same time. It is that the ACT of being analytic about love, shuts off the ability to feel or perceive it accurately. People tend to talk themselves into thinking they are or are not in love with someone, or that they OUGHT TO BE in love with them, when they are not. Or they put the act of analysis between them and dealing directly with the other person, thus always keeping them at arms length emotionally. Or the analytic one drives themselves up a wall with all the analyzing, and makes themselves look nuts to everyone.

As to your detailed question at the end about the book, that could simply be another in the series of "moves" that each of you appear to have made towards each other, all with simultaneously too much, and too little thought being applied. Perhaps the book was a "ploy" to provide an excuse for further contact. Lots of calculating people do that sort of thing, leaving possessions with another person, in order to "test" them in some way. Once they decide they are done, the item they pretended to care so much about becomes like battlefield debris, and they leave it for the owner of the battlefield to clean up.

Or it could simply be that he is weighing how annoying it is to come back and get it, versus buying another copy at a used book store. Or most likely, the amount of time between when he said he wanted it and now, isn't as great as it seems to be to you, because you DO anxiously want him to come back and give you another shot thereby.

I can only suggest that you try to calm down and go about your life as normally as possible. Try to limit your conclusions to the actual facts you have to work with, and stop extrapolating so much. The book provides you only with certain knowledge about how much he needs or wants the particular volume that you have, and how quickly he has to reacquire it. It may or may not mean anything else. Any conclusions you draw from it, even if they prove ultimately accurate, will stand as fantasies in your mind, disguised as fact, and confuse you further rather than illuminate things for you.
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 4
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 5:00:42 AM
All of this advancing and retreating, plus more advancing and retreating, is leaving me weary!
Neither of you sounds quite ready for each other...
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 6
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 5:55:59 AM
Yet somehow he seems to have such a strong hold on me

how can some guy you had sex with once a week and who repeatedly gave you the brush-off have such a strong hold on you? this is all in your head.

I haven't seen him in several months now yet I still think about him constantly
and feel more connected to him than I have with anyone ever
(and I suspect, despite him not showing it, the feeling may be mutual).

so you are obsessing about a man you haven't seen in months and who by all appearances was completely honest with you all along about not taking you seriously, to the point you're actually now fantasizing that "the feeling is mutual" although for some mysterious reason he's deliberately stifling this amazing connection he feeeeeels with you. strike 1.

When I tried telling him how much I liked him and that I needed more he initially said we should just put a stop to it then but then asked me if I thought we'd be good together and why. When I told him what I imagined a relationship being he said his idea was the same but it sounds all good in the beginning and turns out being nothing but stress and never works out.

I see why you want to make mountains out of molehills. even if what you believe is true, he has told you more than once that he isn't mentally and emotionally prepared for a relationship with you. strike 2.

The thing is I still have this book he lent me and he eventually contacted me asking when he can get it back and I told him to let me know when he wants to finally come get it so we can put this behind us but now he's not replying.

so of course you want to use the book as a pretext to renew physical contact with him, but now he's not even replying to your messages. strike 3.

I was told I need to back off

you don't appear to be getting the message.
Joined: 12/9/2012
Msg: 7
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 6:14:30 AM
I'm guessing he just went out and bought another copy of the book
You need to stop - he isn't interested.
Joined: 11/11/2013
Msg: 9
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 7:23:03 AM
He's NOT interested in a relationship, but doesn't mind sleeping with you. He's been trying to tell you this since the beginning, but you won't listen.

He asked you why you thought you'd be good together, AFTER saying he didn't want that, to keep you interested ... after all he was getting laid every week and why ruin a good thing?

The book is another ploy to keep you interested. I highly suspect that he would have been agreeable to your suggestion to bring the book over and drop it off (he was eating ... so therefore too busy to leave his house) and probably figured he would get laid if you did.

You are playing right into his game. You are still interested and chasing him though he has repeatedly told you he doesn't want a relationship with you. Stop thinking about him so much. He doesn't want you for anything more than sexual gratification.

Quit trying to talk yourself into this relationship.
Joined: 5/24/2009
Msg: 10
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Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 7:24:19 AM

When I tried telling him how much I liked him and that I needed more he initially said we should just put a stop to it then


A man who was interested in a relationship with you would never in a million years say this. He is not interested.

The fact that you're holding on to this after several months and are unwilling (not unable) to let it go has nothing to do with him and everything with you.

Based on the quotes in your profile, you have a highly romanticized notion of what relationships should be all about. It would probably help to become a little more realistic.

But, consider this, is the man you describe in your profile the man who told you that "we should just put a stop to it?" If not, why are you trying to make this into something it is not?
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 11
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 8:04:03 AM

The fact that he asked why I thought we'd be good together tells me he at least entertained the idea.

This is just a smoke screen; the only reason why he hasn't shut the door on you is because he is undecided about whether to keep you around for more sex or not!

I even got back on here to talk to other people so I wouldn't be as tempted but I'm just not nearly as interested in anyone else nor do I really want to be if it's going to end up like this.

This is what happens in relationship sometimes; you have to learn when to let go; and know when it is not going anywhere and when the other person just wants to jerk you around or just use you.

Just like getting as much insight into the inner workings of the male mind as possible to help prepare myself for the future, I guess.

Its not the male mind that is so much the problem, but more about your inability to handle problems like this one!
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 12
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 8:04:16 AM
...double post..sorry
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 13
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Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 8:28:14 AM
This is going to be harsh to hear and I'm going to pretty much echo everyone else but....

he initially said we should just put a stop to it

He flat out told you he's not interested in being in a committed relationship with you. At least not the kind you want anyway. He'll be fvck buddies for sure but he's not hubby material.

But props to you for asking the hard questions. Most women don't ask these kind of questions and let these users put all kinds of mileage on their vagina before they figure out their no further along with the d!ck they've been dating for a year then the first day they met him (in fact their worse off now).

then asked me if I thought we'd be good together and why.

He ISN'T entertaining the thought of a relationship here. He's asking because he wants an ego boost. He wants you to tell him how wonderful he is, what a great man he is, how good he is in bed blah blah blah so he can fill up his head and his esteem by using you. He wanted you to stroke his ego! Simple

he eventually contacted me asking when he can get it back

He doesn't give a sh!t about the book. He's contacting you to make the bed start squeaking again and continue to play hide-hoe! He knows your a willing body that will let him sleep with you, not take you anywhere and apparently tell you directly to your face that he doesn't like you like that so of course he's going to take that opportunity to hit it again! He's bored, lonely, horny and probably got dumped with the new girl he was dating. Put the book in the mail and erase him from your life. Problem solved.

I had a guy like this once. When I look back I was totally into him. I had men chasing after me left and right yet I wanted the one man who never took me out, called me only when he was done living his life, saw him maybe once a month. Heck strange guys in clubs were giving me more than he was! The truth was his personality sucked (he was as fun as watching water boil), he wasn't good in bed and he was a project not a partner. For me it was more about getting him to want me and need me. I couldn't stand the fact that he didn't want or need me. Just when I would move on (or thought I was) he would creep back in my life, want me to stroke his ego (did you miss me/us, why do you like sex with me blah blah) change for a couple days, maybe a week then it was back to the same sh!t. Why? Because that's who he was, he could only keep up his game for so long before the truth came out. An actor can only act so long! I was chasing after d!ck not hubby. In the end I straightened up and realized that I needed to show his azz the door and I slammed it shut. I have guys in my life now who would move the heavens and earth for me and do. You should do the same!
Joined: 9/14/2013
Msg: 14
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 10:10:35 AM
Welcome to the ginormous cat-and-mouse game we call dating. He could be on the rebound. But the bottom line is, his love level for you was low - much lower than yours, and too low. Playing hard to get only works when they are ready for love and have a decent level of love for you... I don't see that as the case here.

Forget about the book... you are looking for closure, but the only real closure is to heal.... which ultimately takes time... but if you see him again to give him back the book, that will only delay the healing process. I would suggest throwing everything of his in the trash and cut contact. If he wants the book, he can sue you for it, lol

Always date men who love you more than you do them and you'll never have a problem.
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 15
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 10:15:37 AM
It sounds like he's manipulating you for sex with no strings attached. He plays right into your hand, tells you what you want to hear, you think he's interested because he says things like "why do you think we're good for each other, blah blah", but in reality he's just playing you for sex.

In any dynamic in which one person feels stronger for the other, the one who feels less has the advantage. He only needs to create the illusion that he entertains your BS, in order to get laid. He doesn't have to agree to a relationship, but he agrees with the fact that you entertain it, and therefore he has the advantage, you want him way more than he wants you. As long he doesn't tell you straight out that you will never be interested in you, other than sex, he's in the clear because you won't wake up from the fantasy.

The only thing I can tell you is not ever sleep with anyone who isn't doing anything for you. P*ssy is not free, my mom always says, so don't give it away for free. You are giving it away in hopes of getting what you want (which is not tangible), it's a hope, an illusion, that somehow things will change if I just continue to give it to him and comply with his rules. F*ck all that. It isn't about you needing him to do anything for you, it's about the fact that people don't value what they don't have to do anything to get. You're easy pray (for him), so he's gonna milk that cow until it gets dry. Don't go after people who don't show you they care about you with their actions.

Either you cut it loose along with your feelings, or you start establishing conditions in order for him to keep getting it like that. Next time he stops by, you let him know you are stressed about having to pay the energy bill or cell phone bill and you're gonna be $150 short. If he doesn't even budge (and acts like you didn't say anything) or offer to give you that money, or a good percentage of it, you can bet anything that he doesn't give not even a little bit of a f*ck about you. Show him the door, a man who cares about you, or for that matter, wants to keep boinking you, will come up with the money to at least shut you up and keep his d*ck in your mouth. Why sleep with someone who doesn't even have the slightest attention toward you?

In a land where there are so many people out there willing to give you the world, who will love you, value you, appreciate you, respect you, care about you, why are you giving your body or your time to someone who just wants to stick it in? Come on now.

As long as you have the book, you will feel like he has a reason (other than you) to come see you. Don't trap yourself into that kind of thinking, throw that sh*t away if he's vague about picking it up soon. Don't let him into your house, open the door, give him the book, close the door. If you let him in, he's gonna slime his way into your pants telling you he misses you, etc.
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 16
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Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 11:05:34 AM
We don't really know if he's just into you for sex or if he's just lightly attracted to you, but the truth is he's just not that into you or he would have demonstrated it by now

I've seen cases where women who were initially not that attracted to a guy were ultimately won over, but I've yet to see that happen with a guy. Not that some guys don't find themselves more involved than they might have wished but in those cases their heart is just going through the motions.

I know gender stereotyping is dangerous, and I'm sure there's a guy out there or two who ultimately fell strongly in love after a long period of ambivalence, but I think those guys are far more rare than their female counterparts. Even though women are often thought of as being the more emotional gender, it strikes me that women are more likely to let factors like "good provider", "good father", and other practical considerations impact their emotional attraction than men are. We guys tend to either feel it or we don't.

And this guy clearly doesn't.
Joined: 5/24/2009
Msg: 17
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Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 11:07:15 AM

Yes, I totally agree with this.
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 18
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 11:18:34 AM

wvwaterfall, much of what you wrote makes complete sense in this particular case.
This man in the OP's life does not appear to be sending *ANY* signals of interest whatsoever.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 19
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Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 11:56:58 AM

You're easy pray (for him),

let these users put all kinds of mileage on their vagina

can we stop with the victimization nonsense already? poor widdo baaybee, completely unable to act on her own behalf, is that it? don't think so.

the op is getting a good lesson here: if someone grabs you by the ear and bellows NO! in it a bunch of times, then seems to mumble 'maybe' under his breath, don't put all your eggs in in the 'maybe' basket. in the meantime, the orgasms that she keeps coming back for are her salary, to put it in the terms of those who advocate the commoditization of vaginas.

as far as the book being some kind of hook he has set, sorry, she could unset this 'hook' as easily as throwing the book away, except she's hoping to use it as a hook of her own. in the realm of attempted manipulations, her hands are far from clean. her participation at every level is voluntary. trying to pin all her sorrows on the guy only serves to reinforce every wrong turn she's making here.
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 20
Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 12:24:32 PM

The op has the power to change the situation as SHE is the one unhappy with the situation She may not be able to see the whole situation because she is emotionally invested in him. Believe it or not, when feelings are involved, rational thought gets a bit foggy.

If Jessie and I are making references of such, it's because we've been through something similar. She can change the situation, whether victim or not.

Orgasms are only currency if its a FB arrangement and even that's not guaranteed. In this situation, she wants way more than this. If he didn't have to do anything to get it, he's not gonna do anything to keep it or change it to her liking.
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 21
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Trying to Make Heads or Tails
Posted: 2/11/2014 1:10:12 PM
^^^^ agreed!

There are two kinds of " being played" going on here:
1) where OP is playing herself and that's what most of us are trying to address. By not realizing and continuing to see this man, and that he just wants to hit it and has no interest in forming a relationship outside the bedroom OP is playing herself. (been there done that).
2) OP is being played by this man! Her "friend" clearly knows she wants more yet contacts her after months. When someone knows what you want and yet they disregard it and continue to be shady, do what they want anyway for their own selfish reasons that's called being a user!

Most women who have sex take the sex act very seriously and associate some form of love, connection and intimacy with the act of giving their bodies. Most don't have sex just to have sex and have an orgasm! For women it's much deeper than that. So I'm pretty sure OP wasn't having sex with this man for the orgasms, she was expecting something much more real and connected than the reality she got.

I agree with Bella that sometimes when your emotionally invested in someone it's hard to see the reality of the situation. You want something so bad your almost willing to make it up in your own head a story that makes you feel better. I've always found it helpful to have outsiders (friends, family whatever) turn me upside down and shake the rocks out of my head. Give it to me straight instead of letting me believe the crap I made up. That's what we are trying to do here. Save OP from herself!

As WVwaterfall explained, maybe a little differently, is that men often make up their minds very quickly about women and generally their are two boxes a) Wifey/girlfriend material b) FWB material. Rarely do women escape the FWB box and go to the wifey box. OP is fantasizing in her head that he's going to magically come over get the book and fall in love with her and that's not going to happen! She's hoping that he's using the book as an excuse to confess his dire love for her which is different than using the book to manipulate him. He's hoping that OP is so lonely and missing him by now after he's ignored her for month(s) that she's forgotten, or doesn't care that all he wants to do is stick it. The book is just an excuse for two people who want different things and are clearly incompatible. It's not going to work out when one wants a real relationship and the other wants a FWB!

This guy has already checked her into the FWB box and that's where she's going to stay. OP can keep playing herself by believing this guy will suddenly see her as a wife or she can get real and realize this guy is a user that wants nothing more than free cheap p$ssy!
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