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 ladymercury
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 2
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.Page 1 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
My personal convictions and traditional values seem to stray from one another to some degree. I was baptized and confirmed Finnish Lutheran and attend service with my grandmother and aunt on Sundays. My parents were never too serious about religion, however; both shared more spiritual, nature-based teachings with me as a child.

I am definitely proud to be a keen woman that transcends the impermeable boundaries that religion sometimes portends, and also content to say I've dipped my toes into the waters that bring 7 billion people together with such varied political ideologies. All of it is interesting and I've continued to collect religious stories and teachings from any source that presents itself to me. I'll touch my hand to the earth and receive in earnest the special gifts it bestows and walk with that spirit from dawn to day's end.

As for love life, I've been all over the map and would do it all again in a heartbeat.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 3
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Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/14/2014 9:36:49 PM
It has been my observation (both from direct witnessing, and from readings of histories) that certain central dynamic in all human behavior versus claimed beliefs, is always at play.

That dynamic is of desire provoking actions, and the formulation of belief/philosophy "tools," to make people feel good about whatever it is that they do to please themselves.

The result of this dynamic, is what I have seen to be at the root of all religious and social movements. The Bible is a collection of examples of "tools." Parts of it are obviously attempts to explain how we got here, parts of it are clearly an attempt to provide supernatural authority to who ever wanted to be in charge of everyone else, and parts of it are likely collections of "morality tales," designed to train future generations in basic how-to's of getting through life smoothly.

One bit of History which I found to be instructive, is in the numerous examples of relatively modern "prophets," declaring that their god has spoken to them and given them new directives to promote, which oh-by-the-way serve to increase their personal power, wealth, or "fun." Obvious example was when the leader of the Mormon Church got the hots for some of the women the then-migrating church included, declared that a "new" directive from god was that multiple wives were not only permissible, but encouraged.

Lots of religious leaders have allowed their personal hungers to influence their "inspirations," and they are far from alone. In these forums, we often see people declare that they "deserve" all sorts of things, including especially a certain amount of sex. That's always been the leading excuse given by cheaters for why they strayed, and by those who dump the people they previously claimed to "deeply care for," when they go through periods of difficulty and suffer a decline in their sexual appetite.

Politically, we can often find people "discovering" Constitutional support for whatever their prejudices and desires happen to be, in the same way.

The dynamic is always the same. People want something, and they "discover" previously unrecognized support in other peoples' revered authorities, for why they should be allowed to have it.

This doesn't mean that ALL belief and rule systems are based on greed, actually most of them are based on trying to coordinate people with each other and with the non-human world, for the sake of general comfort and prosperity. But the greed/desire factor is always lurking nearby.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 4
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/16/2014 9:21:30 PM
@OP


Example,there is a verse that reads "If ye had faith the grain of the mustard seed you could move mountains" but has anyone actually tried to go to the side of a mountain and start pushing?


As was pointed out, some denominations require you to take the scriptures literally. What the statement you put up means is that with just a small amount of tangible faith, you could accomplish the unthinkable; perhaps not on your terms and not on your time-frame.


I think even people who are not Christian are aware of the scripture that reads about no sex before marriage


Maybe you can put up the chapter & verse that says exactly this ^


Im not a Biblical scholar but I do wonder how all of these seperate books and people talking about different aspects of Earth,Man and God came together to combine this one biography novel known as the Bible.


The Bible is a piece meal compilation 1st put together by scholars of the 1st & 2nd century and later modified to what we have today. Politics played a part in what it was to contain.


But according to everyone's belief system if you dont believe what they believe you are wrong and Christians and Catholics even take it a step further and say your going to hell which would total a few 10's of billions of human beings that have,are or will live on this Earth.So who is to say who is correct or is it all just Man's interpretation


Religion is a construct erected by man as a way to express (as best as possible) a given culture's reverence of a super-natural creator. Religion by itself is a tool to achieve a higher ground of enlightenment (which most followers never reach) in order to free themselves from the materialism that is corrupting them. There is no right or wrong in religion if it allows for a path of enlightenment. Enlightened pple like Jesus or Buddha; did not come around to start new religions with new rules and regulations; unfortunately, mankind took care of that!


What Im getting at ultimately is how does religion and other things you were taught coming up shape your life in the way you choose to pursue or have a love life?


Religion is a powerful force that shapes those exposed to it in some ways or another; some are repelled by it and act counter to its dictums; others are frightened of it and act within its dictates out of fear of being banished; others see it as irrelevant and have crafted a set of parallel morals (which in many ways mirror religious dictums without any such insinuation).

The key is not to let the religion "shape" the way you choose to pursue a love life; but rather more so in the way that love can bring you into a higher existence in accordance with the morals brought across in the scriptures. In other words, its not about having sex before marriage that matters, but rather if there is an emotional (not lustful) basis for it; and if the 2 individuals remain faithful to one another.
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/18/2014 12:34:38 AM
(op)

For some of us, looking for someone for a Relationship means looking for someone who's mature in at least certain ways.

There are a hundred ways in which to not be mature. There are a hundred different manifestations of the same thing - not being mature. This is the reason for some people's seeming to have so many deal-breakers, even if they don't realize it.

For the most part, excluding the misinterpreted exceptions, religion is simply one form of not being mature...indicative of it. Unfortunately, religion has been lent the image of being something else entirely...of being about something else entirely different than a matter of maturity - except that when it is (by whatever name or form said maturity would go by) it's presented as being exactly the opposite of what it really is.
 theshadebug
Joined: 12/25/2013
Msg: 6
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History
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/19/2014 12:26:57 PM
When I see somebody say that everything they do in life they do for Jesus or something like that, I skip to the next person.

I have no problem with people having faith, but having that faith guide your life and relying on it at all times just seems perverse. I think the analogy of God as a heavenly father is the best one to use when thinking about how you should act on earth.

Let's say you meet a guy and you find out that he works for his dad, lives with his parents and won't leave the house or make friends without his parents' say so. Now let's assume that that guy goes on to demand that you act in the way that his parents' would find acceptable. Now let's say you never get to meet his parents because they work daft hours but you get to meet the maid who tells you all about what his parents do and don't want.

This is not a guy you stick with, this is a guy you run screaming from.

Now let's say you meet a guy who has his own place. He has a picture of his family in his wallet. He probably speaks with his parents a few times a week. Every so often you go meet them for a weekend, but they have their own lives to live and so does your new guy. He does the things he does because they're the right thing to do, but when he does good things he calls his parents and his parents are proud.

This is a decent human being. Hell, some people would probably say we're laying down good foundations for a "catch".

What I'm saying is, when you consider the God that you want to believe in (because you can argue all you like over whether the universe needs a God to exist, but it's up to you to care about that God and why would you care about a God unless you want to?) consider the things that you do and ask yourself how your actual parents would feel if you acted like that for them. Ask yourself how you would feel if your parents demanded you act that way.

If God really exists then he's a God that wants you to make the most of the world you're on and not to dwell on a world that you'll have an eternity to enjoy. If that's not what God's like then that's not a God I want any part of and somebody who is desperate for that God's approval is not somebody I want to share my life with.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 7
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/19/2014 3:24:29 PM
EverydayGurl1993- I was raised Southern Baptist.
Over time, I came to question, not just fundamental christian beliefs, but some of the awful things that are done in the name of religion (does any one else GET the irony?)
I will always doubt the story of the virgin birth, for example.
I also have a serious problem with people claiming to be christian (and therefore, Christ like) and then acting in a way that is opposite of the way Christ is depicted in the bible while he was alive. (healing Lepers, saving a prostitute from stoning)
Even though I have doubts and don't go to church any more, I know I am a good person.
There is nothing wrong with questioning things you are taught to be true, indeed, I think it's vital to do so.
There is also nothing wrong with carrying the things you believe to be good(from your religious upbringing) into your every day life. (do unto others as you would have done to you, giving to people in need, kindness, etc.)
I fact, I think the point that "religious" people sometimes miss, is that going to church and/or calling yourself a good person simply because you belong to a religion makes no sense. You can't say you are a car just because you are in a garage! It doesn't matter what people CLAIM to be, even a little bit, if you act differently than what you claim to believe.
The things I think that are important to do, that make me a good person, I do every day.
It makes me sad, and a bit angry, that some people think they can say one thing, and then do another.
At the end of my time on earth, I don't want people to say that I was religious and/or a christian, I want people to say that I tried to do what was right and had a positive influence on others around me.
That is the only way, I know for sure, that I can live on after I am gone.
 theshadebug
Joined: 12/25/2013
Msg: 8
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Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/21/2014 12:22:12 AM
Weird how there aren't any women in the bible with 700 wives and 300 boy toys on the side
 theshadebug
Joined: 12/25/2013
Msg: 9
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Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/21/2014 12:22:43 AM
*husbands

Hell, there aren't any with wives either but that's a whole other argument
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 10
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/21/2014 7:19:02 PM
^
women are way too smart to have more than 1 husband at a time!
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/23/2014 4:09:17 AM

I find that from day to day it is extremely difficult to live the perfect "born again" life that one is taught from childhood to live once Baptized and saved by the "Holy Ghost".Matching reality with spirituality can sometimes be quite the task.Like the scripture that supposedly quotes God as saying "vengeance is mine" but if someone disrespects me right then and there my natural response from the emotions the creator gave me is anger and I want to have my own vengeance right then and there not wait on a higher being to get it for me after all things are said and done.Is this a selfish,fleshly attitude?yes,but selfishness is part of being human which is another thing I dont understand about Christian theology speaking against it.

You'll make a lot more progress a lot faster in understanding this and in developing your character in this sense...if you let go of the religious or theological jibber jabber, and stop trying to come at it with that approach. Instead, all people have to do is learn how to be objective, be "scientific" about it (oh no, that four-letter word "scientific"), and develop an understanding of ethics and morality...from an objective humanistic ontological mindset, instead of being forever handicapped with trying to reconcile things theologically. And then, if you're not careful, you'll find yourself suddenly mature and in control of your character, behavior, and nature in a real and productive sense.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 13
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Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/23/2014 12:13:56 PM
How do your personal convictions or traditional values that were passed down from one generation the next in your family shape your love life?


As for myself, I don't think that my morality was as much "passed down" (taught) As it was learned, out of a natural necessity to deal with other people - a reality of life as a human. My parents were not religious, so I did not have any kind of organized "morality" foisted upon me as a child. As I remember it, the teachings of my childhood (teachings from my parents) consisted mostly of "do not touch that it is hot", "do not play with that you'll hurt yourself", "do not play in the street", "do not talk to strangers", so on and so forth. The big questions of morality, it seems to me, I was left to ponder myself. If I broke one of my toys, then I could no longer play with it, which made me sad. If another child broke or stole one of my toys then that mad me angry and sad. I could understand how this affected me and by extention could understand how such things must have made other children feel (my peers), therefore, if I did not like it or it made me feel bad, then that should be roughly true for others. This is how I see my own personal morality: as an evolution of thought and reason. I think that if anything WAS actually taught to me about morality, that it was more along the lines of something being presented to me to analyze and I either decide to accept the moral tenant or discard it (and I feel that I have done lots of discarding over the years, especially during my late teens and early twenties) after comparing it to what I had learned through personal experience. At least this is how I see my own morality: as an internal personal evolution steming form personal resolutions, instead of something that was taught to me and I accepted it because I was expected to.

What Im getting at ultimately is how does religion and other things you were taught coming up shape your life in the way you choose to pursue or have a love life?I know for me its a strange crossroads because many of the things I learned whether right or wrong as a little girl have affected the decisions I make with regards to the type of partner Im looking for and the want for long term marriage and children.Yet at the same time I realize that none of us were brought in this world with a how-to manual on how to live life and in spite of the things we were brought up to believe life often just doesnt work that way.


I feel that my ideas about love, and what a personal relationship with another human being should consist of, stem from the same process that I described above, rather than anything that I was "brought up to believe".
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 14
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/23/2014 3:11:25 PM
CressB- Great post!
The idea that you can't be a good person if you don't go to church or aren't religious is way off base.
I watched a show for a while, the premise was people that were way different from each other switching lives (I can't remember the name of it, it only lasted a few weeks, too bad, because it was interesting).
One episode I really enjoyed was an atheist mother and a christian mother that switched family's.
The Christian mother stated, in the beginning, that she couldn't understand how the atheist mother could teach her children to be good people without God or religion.
By the end of the swap, not only did the Christian mother find out that she was wrong, the atheist mother had such a good influence on the family of the Christian mother that the children cried when she left.
The Christian mother was a good mother as well, but the point is everyone learned a lesson.
Morals and living a positive life are NOT exclusive to people of faith.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 15
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Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/24/2014 7:29:15 AM
Another thing to consider, in the great search for meaning and improvement....

Lots of people get the idea that those of us who spend a lot of time and energy working out details of our understandings of wisdom, and of life experiences and religious ideas and ideals, are some how more positively focused than others are.

I am that kind of person myself, so certainly wont put us down, but I can see as well that the people who APPEAR to be pursuing hedonism and lust, can often be JUST AS DEDICATED to finding the best parts of life, and just as intent on doing better than their parents and forefathers did with their lives. Many of them ARE leading "an examined life," as the old Plato quote admonishes. What they find to be valuable and spiritually rewarding might be different than what we do, but the active dedication to finding purpose and ultimate happiness can still be absolutely identical.

I think that for those of us who are on a different road, there is great value in recognizing that the difference is not necessarily as great or as comfortably certain as we might like it to be. If we fail to do so, we can turn away real love, on the basis of some esoteric principle which we really don't understand as well as we think that we do, and we can defeat our own ideals in the process of trying to enforce them.
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/27/2014 5:17:09 PM
everydaygurl...see? You're trying to be "objective" about it. You're trying to apply objectivity to all of it. You just don't quite know it. You just don't think of what you're doing in that way. But you're also hanging on to the wrong things dogmatically, blindly. And so you're handicapped, and you won't ever be able to reconcile or make sense of it all nearly as well as you could if you'd just let go of the "jibber jabber".

You say that christianity has good things in it. You say that there are different interpretations...blah blah blah. So what? What do you think that these things mean?

If a moral tenet is good, then just follow it already. Trust me, any religion teaching a moral tenet is not the originator of that tenet; The validity of that tenet does not vindicate the religion; The teaching of that tenet would be much more effective if it wasn't taught as part of religion; The teaching of morality is not one of the purposes of religion...religion is not about morality, but part of what it's really about is making you think that it is.

Think about something - how do you know that a moral teaching is a good one? Because the bible said so? No. You know it because you decided that it was good, with your brain. It doesn't matter that you can find it in a religion, and it doesn't matter if you think that you first conceived of it through religion...it is still required that you decide for yourself that it is actually a good moral tenet. The "ridiculous" parts of the bible...how do you know that they're ridiculous? Why don't you follow those things in the bible that we know today to be absolutely horrible? With your brain. Yours.

People who don't use their own brain to judge moral teachings from a religion, and embrace good ones "just because"...they are the ones that are always a huge danger, because they don't judge for themselves, therefore we have people who follow some or all of those horrible and aweful things just as much as the good ones.

And...different interpretations? Different denominations? What have you convinced yourself that that means? What justifications or explanations for that have you convinced yourself of? And...why? Think about those.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 18
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Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/27/2014 5:17:19 PM

Like Pinocchio and other parables that taught us as children (or tried too) the essential morals that were wise to live by,I honestly believe,there ARE some good points in the Bible,


Do we really need to keep perpetuating the delusional belief in the "magical sky daddy" to get this effect? We have an effective education system now. if you have forgotten the lessons of your childhood go back and watch some Sesame Street. Instead we have millions of people around the world who are either wrapped up in a hatred for other religions that are not their own, and the followers of those religions, or are killing each other because they thing that their delusions are better than every other religious nut. absolutely ridiculous. *shakes his head* its time to step out of the darkness and into the light.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 19
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/28/2014 8:33:04 AM

Do we really need to keep perpetuating the delusional belief in the "magical sky daddy" to get this effect?


Funny how some Atheists use threads such as this as a soap-box to bash the religious beliefs/inclinations of others.


We have an effective education system now.


Do we?


if you have forgotten the lessons of your childhood go back and watch some Sesame Street.


Is that how you learned your set of 'morals'?


Instead we have millions of people around the world who are either wrapped up in a hatred for other religions that are not their own, and the followers of those religions, or are killing each other because they thing that their delusions are better than every other religious nut.


^ this is a classic example of silly fallacious thinking triggered by your bias & disdain against religion.

If there are (as you say) millions of pple of one religion hating others of another, it is not because they think their religion is superior than any others, but rather it is because they've been manipulated (brain washed) into thinking that opponents of another religion are looking to destroy them (conquer them, control their culture, etc) by thier respective leaders for their own agendas.

Thus, if you look back at history, it becomes evident that Religion is not usually the cause of hate & wars but rather is used as a Pretext for it; Just like Political ideology is used as a Pretext for war, etc. In fact most of the violence in this world (causing massive casualties) that has erupted in the past 100 years or so was not borne out of religious discord, but rather from competing political ideologies vying for world domination (WW-1; WW-2; Cold war proxy wars, etc)waged mostly by individuals who are far removed from being pious or religious!

The problem is not religion/politics per se, but instead it is the greed/selfishness that is imbued in the nature of human beings.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 20
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Posted: 5/28/2014 10:55:54 AM

If there are (as you say) millions of pple of one religion hating others of another, it is not because they think their religion is superior than any others, but rather it is because they've been manipulated (brain washed) into thinking that opponents of another religion are looking to destroy them (conquer them, control their culture, etc) by thier respective leaders for their own agendas.


This isn't true if you want to be honest about history and current affairs. Jews and Christians lived as dhimmis in Muslim countries throughout history. They were given that status because they were tolerated as inferiors. This practice continues today in places like Sudan where a woman is sentenced to be hanged for marrying a Christian. Ideologies of supremacy and subjugating people of other faiths and non believers is built into some religions.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 21
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Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/28/2014 1:26:55 PM
Yule:

Well lets take a look at some recent history then shall we?

Ireland: Protestant/Catholic war, raging since 1200 AD - got really bloody in the 1980s/90s

Middle East: (and man there is some F'ed up sh!t going on there) there's the Sunni/Shiite civil war, not to mention A LOT of Christian involvement (can't forget the "axis of evil" and the hatred and bias felt towards Muslims in America) then there's that whole thing with Israel, and the list goes on.

Europe: ah yes, how could forget hitler's genocide of the Jews? (Utoh, said Hitler, everybody's got to drink a shot)

Nigeria: major Christian Muslim conflicts during mid last century.

Vietnam: Buddhist Vietnamese majority uprising against a Christian Vietnamese occupying minority, mid last century.

Tibet: Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire in the streets in protest of a Chinese occupation, riots and civil unrest amongst the people.

And the list goes on and on and on. I mean what world are you living in? And this is absent the kind of hate (just hatred) that permeates the world due to religion - with such things a neo-naziism here in the west. Other parts of the world I am sure have their equivalents.

Yes, religion can be used by politicians to whip the masses into and angry mob/army. Are you seriously using this as an argument to your benefit? Because to me it is one of the major reasons why religion should be abolished.

What a bunch of nonsense. Religion is good for nothing but death and suffering and the fostering of such things in a culture. People don't need religion to be good or moral.

I've already stated how I attained my morality in this thread, and I'll tell you what, I'm much more a fan of Sesame Street than I am of the bible. At least Sesame Street is isn't demanding that the little children that watch worship Big Bird as the one and only true god of all creation. *shakes his head*
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 22
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/28/2014 7:39:22 PM
@Cress


Well lets take a look at some recent history then shall we?


Man, this is gonna be goooood!


Ireland: Protestant/Catholic war, raging since 1200 AD ...


Guess what!
the Protestant reformation erupted in the early 1500's (by Luther & Calvin). There was NO such thing as a Protestant in the 1200's; therefore there was no such religious war "raging". You might wanna do some basic research before you get into discussions about things you know absolutely NOTHING of!
Strike One!

After the Reformation, the only country that remained with the RCC in Northern Europe was Ireland. When the British invaded them (after the Reformation), they brought their brand of Protestantism in, and the converts they made were concentrated in what is now N Ireland. The struggle between the Caths & Protestants in N. Ireland is not because each one believes his Religion is superior, but that the Protestant North wished to remain part of the UK (and not become further impoverished by joining back with the Irish republic), while Ireland proper wanted to unify their Island back to pre-UK times. Religion was the only thing that served to set this group of pple apart, therefore it became the fulcrum by which they fought their conflict but the real reason was power and control of the Island & its politics. If it was solely religion that spurred the conflict then it would NEVER have come to an end because religious principles do not change!


Middle East: (and man there is some F'ed up sh!t going on there) there's the Sunni/Shiite civil war,


Unless you know something most of us don't; there is NO official "civil war" between Shiite & Sunni's.
They've both co-existed since the 700's
Yes, there has been strife and skirmishes, but again, that was usually while in the process of a power grab,
using the Religious pretext (to hide behind their true motives)that one was more worthy than the other.


A LOT of Christian involvement (can't forget the "axis of evil" and the hatred and bias felt towards Muslims in America) then there's that whole thing with Israel, and the list goes on.


I have no idea WTF you are trying to say here^ (and I don;t think you do either).
I live in the USA (I see in your profile that you live in AZ), and I've seen no such violence or hate toward Muslims (by non fundamentalist Christians) most of whom are appalled by the violence in the ME and the actions of Alqaeda much like christians are!


Europe: ah yes, how could forget hitler's genocide of the Jews? (Utoh, said Hitler, everybody's got to drink a shot)


Again, I dunno WTF you are talking about, but you might be surprised to know that it was a group of religious PPle (Jews mostly)who were persecuted by unrighteous heathens ( the Nazi's).
Strike 2.


major Christian Muslim conflicts during mid last century.


Funny because there was little in the way of any conflict between the Muslims (of the north) and Christians (south) before OIL was discovered in Nigeria, Again, like the case is in Ireland, religion is the focal point that sets the 2 apart, when in fact it is the oil money/wealth that has ignited strife between the two.


Buddhist Vietnamese majority uprising against a Christian Vietnamese occupying minority,


Christian Vietnamese were converts largely from French missionaries (french controlled that region for over 100 years), and thus received favoritism by the colonial masters, and so everyone else was fearful that they would eventually have the most leverage/power.


Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire in the streets in protest of a Chinese occupation


The Chinese communists were Atheists, and had allegiance only to their gov't and party
Anyone else in their domain who was not of the same stripe was seen as a threat that had to be eliminated.
Which is probably why the monks set themselves afire in public, just to show to all (in protest)what would have otherwise happened to them behind closed prison doors.
Strike 3!


I mean what world are you living in?


Gee I dunno, but seeing what you just wrote, I'm glad its not the same world you're living in!


Yes, religion can be used by politicians to whip the masses into and angry mob/army. Are you seriously using this as an argument to your benefit?


Yep, because even you just acknowledged it yourself (probably unbeknownst to you!) in the first sentence noted above.


Religion is good for nothing but death and suffering and the fostering of such things in a culture


Oh sure, if you overlook the fact that the most destructive wars of modern times were started by non-religious pple; but hey, don't let the facts stand in the way of your sesamee street fantasy.


People don't need religion to be good or moral.


In theory this could be true; so long as everyone's morals coincide with everyone else's (which is something that has never occurred in recorded history).


.I'll tell you what, I'm much more a fan of Sesame Street than I am of the bible.


IMO, nothing is more potentially dangerous than a person whose "morals" are not accountable to a standard other than what he has set & crafted for himself and others in his fold.
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@ Coma


This isn't true if you want to be honest about history and current affairs. Jews and Christians lived as dhimmis in Muslim countries throughout history. They were given that status because they were tolerated as inferiors. This practice continues today in places like Sudan where a woman is sentenced to be hanged for marrying a Christian. Ideologies of supremacy and subjugating people of other faiths and non believers is built into some religions.


I'm not denying that non-Muslims were treated differently in some Muslim countries
But this isn't unique to Religion itself. Here in the US, Blacks have been treated as inferiors, and they are usually of the same religious faith as their former masters. It boils down to prejudices held against pple who look or think/believe differently than you(not you personally) do, and the desire NOT to empower these pple in anyway!

The example you gave (whether she was executed or not), was simply done for the sole purpose to frighten the living HELL of anyone else who might be inclined to do the same thing, because doing so would ultimately be a threat to those who hold the reigns of power in that area.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 23
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History
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/28/2014 8:30:52 PM

Again, I dunno WTF you are talking about, but you might be surprised to know that it was a group of religious PPle (Jews mostly)who were persecuted by unrighteous heathens ( the Nazi's).
Strike 2.


The Nazi's (but I'll assume you mean the Wehrmacht and the Schutzstaffel) weren't atheist organizations.


IMO, nothing is more potentially dangerous than a person whose "morals" are not accountable to a standard other than what he has set & crafted for himself and others in his fold.


What standard should they be held against? Morality is simply a code of conduct that allows people to live in harmony with each other. They should be created with reason and protect individual freedom while promoting democratic ideals. A person has to have major mental health issues if they need a book to tell them not to lie, steal and kill.


I'm not denying that non-Muslims were treated differently in some Muslim countries
But this isn't unique to Religion itself. Here in the US, Blacks have been treated as inferiors, and they are usually of the same religious faith as their former masters. It boils down to prejudices held against pple who look or think/believe differently than you(not you personally) do, and the desire NOT to empower these pple in anyway!


No, not really. It's religion that allows men to treat women as inferiors around the world. In Saudi Arabia, women weren't allowed to exist a burning building unless they were covered head to toe. In these countries, the men and women belong to the same religion. So basically, it has nothing to do with one religion dominating another or one group of people being superior. Religion is creating inequality because the inequality is built into the religion.


The example you gave (whether she was executed or not), was simply done for the sole purpose to frighten the living HELL of anyone else who might be inclined to do the same thing, because doing so would ultimately be a threat to those who hold the reigns of power in that area.


The reigns if powere there are theocratic. Religion and state are the same thing.
 Bentheredunthat
Joined: 1/9/2014
Msg: 24
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/29/2014 7:49:14 AM

Again, I dunno WTF you are talking about, but you might be surprised to know that it was a group of religious PPle (Jews mostly)who were persecuted by unrighteous heathens ( the Nazi's).


Hitler stated publicly and frequently that he was a Catholic and always would be. Further, he used the Bible as his justification for exterminating those filthy jews that killed Jesus.

But don't let facts stand in the way of your cool story.....
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/29/2014 2:32:43 PM
Yep. Beginning after my last post, somewhere around you'll lick her that followed mine...the cry-baby lies, misdirections, and cowsh!t started. Right on cue. Just like always.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 27
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/29/2014 5:53:19 PM
@Coma


The Nazi's (but I'll assume you mean the Wehrmacht and the Schutzstaffel) weren't atheist organizations.


I didn't say they were atheists!
I called them heathens, that is, pple who purported to believe in a mish-mash of "gods" or supreme beings from whom power and inspiration was supposed to be derived. The Nazis usually invoked the names & symbols of war-like Nordic gods (the mythical creators of the Aryan race) for whom they held numerous parades and festivals. This was of course done to whip up the national fervor of the German pple.

I don't think Hitler himself believed this trash, though many of his minions did as quite of few dabbled in the occult!
Hilter used any means whatsoever to rile up his pple's appetite for the upcoming war he was gonna embark in, and Religion was one of them.


What standard should they be held against?


Lets see, Hmm!
Maybe a standard by which they can be judged in case one of these individuals in "charge" (for lack of a better word), gets the inclination to start screwing the masses (who have put their faith & confidence in his/her morals), as quite a many leaders/heads have been known to have done through the ages.

There was no such standard in Nazi Germany to call out Hitler's trespasses, so at the end of war, the Allies had to set the standard for crimes/misconduct committed.


Morality is simply a code of conduct that allows people to live in harmony with each other.


Is it?
The closest place you have to the Utopian paradise you just painted was/is in N Korea (or in Mao's China), where pple believe that their society is the nadir to perfection and beyond reproach.


They should be created with reason and protect individual freedom while promoting democratic ideals.


^ wow, now that is beautiful;
but now let us find the top 10--15 world leaders who all agree on what freedom should consist of and what encompasses so called "democratic ideals", shall we!


A person has to have major mental health issues if they need a book to tell them not to lie, steal and kill.


But they sure need a "book" (code of laws which in many societies was derived from religious texts such as bible, koran, etc), to instruct them what falsehoods constitutes a Lie, what appropriations is stealing & and when killing is lawful and when it isn't.


No, not really. It's religion that allows men to treat women as inferiors around the world.


Nope not really, it is a pple's inclinations that makes them shape their Religion into a tool of oppression.

Sometimes the tool is Religion, sometimes it is racial superiority, sometime it is economic policy
This is simply what humans are good at doing! This is what gave us the edge over other Hominids who we competed with(and exterminated) to get to the top of the heap!

If humans were inclined to live ever so peacefully and harmoniously with each other, we'd have done it 1000's of years ago on our own and we would have had no need for laws or religious dictums to help set boundaries for our actions and behaviors.


Religion is creating inequality because the inequality is built into the religion.


This is the fallacy of circular logic. You just overlooked (what I already pointed out above) why inequality was built into it.
**********************************************************************

At Poster #32, who says:


Hitler stated publicly and frequently that he was a Catholic and always would be. Further, he used the Bible as his justification for exterminating those filthy jews that killed Jesus.

But don't let facts stand in the way of your cool story


^^LMAO (big time), but let us PRESUME for a minute that Hitler was indeed a true Catholic

Tell me(and the rest of the readers here) what edict was passed by any POPE that made it official RCC policy that Jews can be justifiably exterminated for having "killed JC", and where is it written that Hitler was commissioned with this task?

Secondly, you believe Hitler was Catholic, because he said so?
Is that what you are saying?
Beyond lip service, what was it about his actions, demeanor, character that convinces you that he was a Catholic (or even a Protestant for that matter)?

Heinrich Himmler was of a Catholic up bringing. He took all the sacraments at all stages of his youth!
Would you call this man a follower and practitioner of his faith after he became a Nazi?

Hilter bullshitted everyone, every chance he could, anyway he could to gain their confidence and trust!
He said what he had to say so as NOT to alienate any major body of Germans against him.
The 2nd year that was he was in power, he tried to enact legislation to oppress Jews
This did not go over well with most Germans who wanted him to build up the economy as he promised,
Hilter then posponed his persecutions for another 4 years, until he fully completed his con-Job on his pple!

News flash,
at the core, Hitler didn't believe in anything but in his own self contrived morals and philosophy
and used who-ever he could to get where he wanted to be. He was a consummate liar, He lied to not only to Stalin (who would have been his ally) and Chamberlain, but to his own pple.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 28
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History
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/29/2014 6:00:22 PM

Is it?
The closest place you have to the Utopian paradise you just painted was/is in N Korea (or in Mao's China), where pple believe that their society is the nadir to perfection and beyond reproach.


What are you talking about? I didn't paint any uptopian paradise. You just made that up. People get along fine in their day to day lives by using common sense and being nice. They don't need a government to tell them what to do.


^ wow, now that is beautiful;
but now let us find the top 10--15 world leaders who all agree on what freedom should consist of and what encompasses so called "democratic ideals", shall we!


That's the point. Morality is something that's evolving and being discussed. It's not "absolute".


But they sure need a "book" (code of laws which in many societies was derived from religious texts such as bible, koran, etc), to instruct them what falsehoods constitutes a Lie, what appropriations is stealing & and when killing is lawful and when it isn't.


If you're talking about law, of course it has to be consistent. It's not based on religion though. That's why we have separation of church and state. We were talking about everyday morality. You don't go to jail for lying to your friends.


Nope not really, it is a pple's inclinations that makes them shape their Religion into a tool of oppression.

Sometimes the tool is Religion, sometimes it is racial superiority, sometime it is economic policy
This is simply what humans are good at doing! This is what gave us the edge over other Hominids who we competed with(and exterminated) to get to the top of the heap!

If humans were inclined to live ever so peacefully and harmoniously with each other, we'd have done it 1000's of years ago on our own and we would have had no need for laws or religious dictums to help set boundaries for our actions and behaviors.


We have lived peacefully for a long time. You're cherry picking the violent parts of history and ignoring the peaceful things that happen day to day. It doesn't matter what the motivation behind the creation of a holy book is. The fact remains the same. Inequality is built into the religion and any theocratic state based on that religion will perpetuate that inequality.


This is the fallacy of circular logic. You just overlooked (what I already pointed out above) why inequality was built into it.


Inequality is built into SOME religions. It depends what religion we're talking about. Some are simply better than others. In the end, it doesn't matter why it's built it. What matter is if we continue to base our society on these archaic systems or allow our society to evolve and change with the times.


I dont think it does at all.Ive met and known a hand full of good Muslims.Some I grew up with.Evil is the manifested through sinful nature not religious allegiance.


I'm not really sure what you mean by this. In order to have a "sinful nature" you would have to believe in one of the man made religions. Otherwise, we should just call it like it is. People are violent because they're animals. The idea of living together peacefully is a relatively new concept. Not too long ago, humans were hunting bears together and now a lot of men are afraid to make eye contact with women. I'm not sure that Bin Laden didn't believe in jihad. In his letter to America, he opens with a verse from the Quran. Also, the idea that a certain religion is superior over others and the inequality of religion is built into these religions. It's not built into secular moral philosophy. So called "absolute morality" derived from religion is no different than the morality we make up for ourselves if we're non-religious. Both are just made up by someone. I'll stick with secular morality because it's created through reason, discussion, and debate with the intention of allowing everyone to live in harmony. I find the morality that comes from religion to be less that suitable for modern civiliation because it contains these ideas like men having more value than women.
 RedrockJen
Joined: 3/27/2014
Msg: 29
Life Liberty and the Religious factor.
Posted: 5/29/2014 7:26:18 PM
"Religion is all bunk." - Thomas A. Edison
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