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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The confederate flag debate.      Home login  
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 MissScawlett
Joined: 3/26/2015
Msg: 1
The confederate flag debate.Page 1 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
So, I live in Oklahoma. I know many northerners consider Oklahoma is "the south" and maybe it is. There are a lot of confederate flags displayed here -- mostly in mancave garages. All I know is the people I see with confederate flags displayed around here are just run-of-the-mill rednecks. Some could be racists, but I don't think that confederate flag has anything to do with that. I believe the term "redneck" comes from farming where the back of your neck is exposed to the sun while working in the field.

My brother has a confederate flag tag on his truck -- it's been there for years -- and one of his good friends is black. He also has several friends who are Mexican/Hispanic. I've never heard him utter one racist word, but he proudly claims to be a redneck. All rednecks aren't racists nor are all racists rednecks.

I've been looking at some historical pictures of KKK gatherings, and all I see are American flags -- the one we salute. I also saw a few where they were carrying the confederate flag, but by and large, it was the American flag.

I'm not sure why the confederate flag is so offensive. It's a part of our history and especially a part of the history of the south. I just think this political correctness and fear of offending someone is going a bit too far.

Just some random thoughts I'm having after learning that the confederate flag on the beloved General Lee from the Dukes of Hazzard is now considered offensive.

I'm certainly not trying to start any race riot here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 2
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 2:24:36 PM
Really OP...I'm going to attempt to be kind...but are you that dense?

The confederate flag is a symbol of slavery and secession. The first is a racist symbol and the second is treasonous. Therefore, anyone who displays the flag is either a racist o a secessionist..or the third possibility is ignorant...
 _babblefish
Joined: 9/23/2011
Msg: 3
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 2:33:56 PM

I've been looking at some historical pictures of KKK gatherings, and all I see are American flags -- the one we salute. I also saw a few where they were carrying the confederate flag, but by and large, it was the American flag.


as a non US citizen I checked with Mr. Google, he says otherwise
 MissScawlett
Joined: 3/26/2015
Msg: 4
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 2:40:31 PM
Thanks for your attempt at "kindness" Irish.

I was merely interested in what people thought about the issue. If I rankled your Yankee sensibilities, please accept my profuse apologies.
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 5
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 2:44:10 PM
We have the 10th Amendment. READ IT !!!!! WHITES HAVE THE RIGHT TO SECEDE. That is what our flag means. Men have fought and died for the privledge of overthrowing illegals like obongo !!!!! Stars and Bars will never go away !!!!! Incidently , sales of OUR National Flag have sky rocketed ; business is fantastic !!!!
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 6
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 3:57:25 PM
No one should deny or excuse what the flag symbolizes.
When you remove it from games, battles, movies,photos and books concerning the civil war, however, one is approaching schizophrenia.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 7
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 4:26:58 PM

As an imperfect comparison - how do we feel about people flying the Mexican flag in Texas, as a sign of "Sure, you won the war, but we still defy being part of you and fly this flag as a symbol of our cultural difference with you"?


"You" people seem to confuse private and public expression. If you want to only associate with a certain group of people, let's say white/black only, in your social life, no problem. But, if you wish to deny services in your public business based on some sort of ethnic/minority/religious/sexual orientation...well, you better hope you're dealing with one who wishes to get along without confrontation. Because, a criminal and civil lawsuit, one that is certain to be decided not in your favor, will ensue.

You wish to use every racist term to describe another ethnic group-in your home-No Problem....if you're a public figure...you might have a problem.

If you want to raise the confederate, Mexican National, or any other flag in your yard...have at it...but, if you want to place these flags on public land...well, perhaps you'd better think twice (if you can.)

If you're a national business, and are safeguarding the bottom line...you might not want to be known to sponsor/hire racist bigots...it'll hurt your bottom line. Of course, if you don't care, have at it.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 8
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History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 4:38:39 PM

I was merely interested in what people thought about the issue.
If you've been paying attention to the news, you'd know exactly "what people thought about the issue".

I'd be happy never to see one again ... but now where I live and have seen the confederate rag in the past, I'm now seeing teadipper rags of "Don't Tread on Me" instead. Some are changing them out from day to day ... some are now displaying both.

To me (my personal feelings) it represents jacked up pickup, gun toting, ignorance, bigotry ... just for starters.

As for what "Irish" states ... he's right. And BTW ... I think he really did a good job of describing just what it officially represents. I don't see any "unkindness" in the way he described it. I wouldn't be surprised but that somewhere on "Google", you could find the same sort of explanation. Would you have been offended to read it on "Google"?
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 9
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 4:47:50 PM
Safeguarding slavery was and is the last thing on anyone's mind. B&B is partially correct. Private Property rules. Property Rights are first and foremost. Again , our flag clearly stands for the 10th Amendment. Allowing the oppressed to flee a tyrannical regime. Much like the South after reconstruction , current day European Americans must prevail in an unfriendly often dangerous venue. James Madison was so adamant regarding States Rights that the 10th was established simply because the 1st granting ALL the Liberties were honored was just not enough to guarantee successful secession. While the Constitution being God's will as Madison's job to expedite and include properties of The Scottish Magna Carta essentially calling a tyranical regime on the carpet. Take note , obongo.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 10
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History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 5:12:44 PM

While the Constitution being God's will ...
I'm trying desperately not to feed the troll, but in what way is the Constitution a "sky wizard's will"?

And what does that have to do with the topic of this thread?
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 11
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 7:08:27 PM
This guy has an opinion on it.




The truth about our flag, is that it is not a racist symbol. Us southerners are tired of other people being hypocritical of our Southern history, and assuming that if we fly the flag, we are racist.

The Confederate flag and our Southern heritage has been mistreated and criticized againts as being racist. How can you say that our flag is racist? Because we owned slaves during the Civil War? That would be a horrible misunderstanding because Southerners were NOT the only states who had slaves. Union commander and general Ulysses S. Grant owned a personal slave. Also, if it were not for slave owners, the blacks being sent to America would not have a place to live. We basically gave them food and shelter, just they paid by working, not with money.

Another common misuderstanding was that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Wrong. In 4 Yankee states, (Maryland, West Virginia, Delaware, and Washington D.C.) slaves were owned. These states never seceded, but were not required to free their slaves. What hypocricy. The only difference between Northern and Southern slaves is that Southern slaves worked in fields, while Northern ones worked in a factories. And in 1862, the U.S. Congress (made up of all Yankees since Southern congressmen went to form our own nation) refused to pass a constitutional amendment aboloshing slavery. How can you require Southerners to free slaves if you won't free yours? And yet another misunderstanding is that all Southern slave owners abused slaves. In fact, there were laws protecting slaves from being abused. Ulysses S. Grant was often in court being tried for slave abuse. So why are only Southern slave owners stereotyped for abusing slaves? Knowing northerners abused slaves, why don't you also see the American flag as a symbol of racism?

So, one might ask, if the war wasn't fought over slavery, what was it fought over? The war was fought because of growing tensions between the North and South. Yes, slavery was a cause of tensions, but not the main one. The main problem between the North and South was political views. Political views between the North and South differed since the early days of America. The South was an agricultural region, depending highly on cotton in its economy. The North on the otherhand, was an industrial region. The North needed a central government to build a road and railway system to protect its trading and financial interests, and also to control national currency. Being highly dependant on agriculture, the South needed less a central government, and opposed the idea of a complex system of roadways and railways. As you can see, slavery was only a small issue during the Civil War.

I think another reason people associate the Confederate flag with racism is people always associatie the Ku Klux Klan with the Confederate flag. This is not true. The Klan was a group of white Christians living in the South that were afraid of foreigners taking away the rights of whites in America. It has nothing to do with the Confederacy. Here is a picture of Klan members flying American, not Confederate flags on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington D.C. After viewing this, and reading the rest of the article, why do you associate the Confederate flag with the racism?


angelfire.com

Anyway I have a great idea. The Confederate Flag should be replaced with the Rainbow Flag. After all the Rainbow Flag is now a symbol of Democracy (Pfft!).

Just ask the 28 US States who amended their Constitutions to preclude Homosexual marriage and did it by referendums. Only to have that ruled unconstitutional by Courts.

That is not Democracy, that is called Tyranny.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 12
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History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/2/2015 10:23:06 PM
Again with this.

1. The Civil War was indeed fought over States Rights...because the states in question wanted the right to keep, maintain, and expand the institution of Slavery.

Period. Anyone who pretends it WASN'T about slavery, is a liar, both to themselves, and to anyone they protest to about it.

2. The OP's examples of people who put the flag on stuff for fun, are simply examples of the VERY common phenomenon of people who do stuff without thinking about it. Their friends had a flag bumper sticker, so they got one too.

The fact that people don't think about stuff, doesn't prove that what they are doing it with is itself innocent. When I was a kid, it was (and still is) considered "fun" to have a skull and crossbones flag or motif on stuff. To us, it meant fantasy playtime. In actuality, the classic Pirate Flag, promotes old school organized crime and terrorism. If it were also currently being used by actual Pirates, parents and others who cared about good behavior would get upset with us for playing around with it.

3. No, the KKK was NOT a group who feared FOREIGNERS were taking away their rights. They were terrorists. That's it. No noble cause, just terrorism against the neighbors they didn't like. Anyone who says otherwise, is again, a liar promoting a rewrite of what actually happened.

Just as ISIS does today, some of them are trying to pretend that they are representatives of idealists eager to be free to live their lives as they see best, and want you to see them as leaders in a heroic cause.
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 13
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 12:26:59 AM
How can the Confederate Flag be construed as racist when blacks themselves owned slaves?




Fact 4: Many free Negroes owned black slaves; in fact, in numbers disproportionate to their representation in society at large.

In 1830, a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more.

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states.

Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. Black Duke University professor John Hope Franklin recorded that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves. The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation.

Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000.

In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860, 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings. In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners.

(Source: Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South, Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak New York: Norton, 1984.)

Fact 5: In 1860 only a small minority of whites owned slaves. According to the US census report for that last year before the Civil War, there were nearly 27 million whites in the country. Some eight million of them lived in the slaveholding states.

The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves. Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves).

The figures show conclusively that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters in pre-Civil War America. The statistics outlined above show that about 28 percent of free blacks owned slaves—as opposed to less than 4.8 percent of southern whites, and dramatically more than the 1.4 percent of all white Americans who owned slaves

newobserveronline.com

Don't they teach you this stuff in school? Obviously not.

Further to that the American Colonies first slaves were White, they came from Ireland.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 14
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History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 12:58:50 AM
Most true, or at least sort of true. Also entirely nothing to do with this thread in any way shape or form.

The fact that other people have done bad stuff, NEVER excuses or explains away someone ELSE doing bad stuff.

The fact that the Civil War was fought for the sake of the few rich people who owned slaves and wanted to be able to keep on doing so, has nothing to do with it either.
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 15
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 5:00:55 AM
Some folks pretend to be Klan savvy. If they were , they would realize that the Invisble Emplire is a family organization for Whites. Why can all other races have fraternal orgs but Whites can not? Many Realms are strictly religous . Every Realm is a family and unique. Some are Identarian. For example , no public protests and only "robe up" once a year. Cross lighting's are done in private on private property. By court order , no negros are to be present. The Klan seeks what the Framers and Founders did. A White Ehnostate with Freedom from excessive gubmint and regulation. Whites were being abused by reconstruction. As incredible as this sounds thesre was more black on White rape after the cival war than even currently !!!!!! The State House of La. in 1868 shows an all black cast. Just as now Whites were doomed. Just as now , WE WILL SURVIVE. Another Family or Realm has planned a pretty big rally for the SC state House. Our flag represents US and our culture. The strength of the 10th Amendment. White Separatism and all the HERITAGE associated with the formation of a New America.
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 16
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 5:24:13 AM

All I know is the people I see with confederate flags displayed around here are just run-of-the-mill rednecks. Some could be racists, but I don't think that confederate flag has anything to do with that.


Well then all of them have either been lied to or they are too stupid to learn the true history of the flag for themselevs.


A Brief History Of: The Confederate Flag*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liaQJNR4Y0Y
 motowncowgirl
Joined: 3/24/2015
Msg: 17
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 6:33:59 AM
you can't really underestimate the power of a symbol. symbols hit people at a level that's innate and primal, because ultimately people are largely irrational beings who think in magical terms, and they will always, always intuit a deeper meaning from symbols. try flipping someone the bird and then telling them it's just a finger in the air. the swastika is an ancient symbol that was used by Hindus, Buddhists and Native Americans for probably thousands of years before it became the logo for less than 10 lousy years of systematic oppression. but all of that ancient history suddenly became completely irrelevant circa 1940. huh.

what's weird about the confederate flag thing is the furious hand wringing over settled history. people wallowing in their collective guilt. it's a form of neurosis. as if mass murder isn't enough of a problem, now we have to have another argument about how the civil war was fought and lost. really? the confederate flag wouldn't have been anything more than a symbol of ordinary redneckery had not some mental case been caught posing with one before he decided to shoot a bunch of innocent people under the pretense of starting a 'race war'. well one guy went batshit crazy but he didn't have an army, let's outlaw a symbol and everybody sing kumbaya.

if the confederate flag had been edited from history (to the extent possible) 20 years ago, as many have called for, do you really think it would have many *any* difference in THIS deranged person's motivations? I guess one of Charles Manson's bigger mistakes was forgetting to have his minions nail a confederate flag to the wall on the way out. he total fucked up that race war thing by not using a confederate flag. he must be taking notes.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 18
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History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 7:19:07 AM
It’s difficult to believe that this is even a debate. If you want to know what the Confederate flag stands for, all you have to do is ask the man who designed it:

“As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race... Such a flag would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG. As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism.” – William T. Thompson, designer of CSA’s second flag, the first to include the Confederate Battle Flag

Furthermore, nearly every Confederate state included a clause similar to this one in their Confederate constitution or secession declaration:

“Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. . . . A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.” – Mississippi’s 1861 secession declaration

Over the years, it’s arguable that to SOME people the Confederate flag has come to stand for “heritage,” “states’ rights” and all that other malarkey. But it is undeniable that the man who designed the flag meant for it to be a racist symbol and the supposed “government” that made it an official symbol of their organization *started* the Civil War in order to maintain slavery.

And, yes, the South started the “War of Northern Aggression” – they fired the first shots on starved Ft. Sumter for requesting provisions shortly after a president they hated took office. Considering Lincoln wanted to avoid war at all costs and never intended to free the slaves at that point, it’s very likely that if the South hadn’t attempted to secede, there wouldn’t have been a Civil War and slavery would have continued unabated for years to come. As South Africa proved, it’s possible that uneasy peace and institutionalized racism could have continued right into the 20th century. IF the South had kept its cool. Hell, Lincoln even supported the Corwin Amendment that guaranteed states with slavery could have it forever and Congress couldn’t interfere with slavery without Southern states’ consent – it passed Congress between when he was elected and when he took office and was awaiting ratification when the Southern states decided to commit treason against the United States rather than take that “compromise” (really, they got everything they wanted except the right to expand slavery beyond where it was already legal. But that wasn’t good enough for these Southern crybabies. Much like most of the aholes on POF’s message board these days, all they saw was conspiracies).

Nothing I just wrote is disputable. “Heritage” supporters just interpret the historical record one way and “Hate” supporters another. But if this was a trial with an impartial jury, it would boggle the mind for them to rule any other way besides “The Confederacy is guilty of treason and its flag was designed as a symbol of its racism.”

As for the “Dukes of Hazzard” situation, I think it’s an overreaction – inevitable, but an overreaction. I grew up on the rural Alabama-Georgia border in the early 80s not far from where it was being filmed and I was a fan of the goofy show as a kid. Despite having seen the Klan IN PERSON march around with that flag more times than I can count, the General Lee never struck me as being particularly racist and the show overall was definitely not racist – heck, it was largely a satire of both Civil War Era and the then-modern South and poked much more fun at Southern culture than it glorified it; most Southerners did not seem to be in on the joke, though. (Interestingly, the most competent, honest, intelligent character on the show was the one semi-regular black character, the sheriff of the neighboring “Chickasaw County.”)

I have no doubt “The Dukes of Hazzard” is largely responsible for the warm fuzzy feelings most Southerners (and many non-Southerners) have toward the Confederate Battle Flag, as it might very well be a dead symbol at this point if not for that very popular show. Although it’s true that the Klan and other racist groups currently adore the flag, they barely used it at all prior to the 1950s & 1960s, when Southern states decided to express their disgust with the Civil Rights movement (which coincided with the 100 year anniversary of the Civil War) by dragging that nearly forgotten treasonous flag out of the closets and raising it on government grounds, though it still wasn’t until the Dukes that you could find the flag everywhere. The Klan peaked in the 1920s but was then much more of Midwest phenomenon (Indiana loved them some Klan), so why would they bother with a Southern symbol during that period?

Frankly, I don’t really care about the flag enough to develop a negative opinion about a benign TV show because of the actions of Dylann Roof. But whether everyone agrees that it’s a racist symbol, it absolutely has no business being an official government symbol because it is unquestionably a symbol of treason against the United States. Private citizens and business can do whatever they want with the flag (including choose to not sell it or license cars with it), because that’s first amendment and laissez faire, baby. But after spending the first 18 years of my life getting my head flushed in the toilet, dragged across the floor by my hair, spat on with the n-word, and threatened with lynching and cross-burning by people often covered head-to-toe with the Confederate Flag, you’re going to have to forgive me if I decide not to associate with such flag-loving people anymore, no matter how much “heritage” they may be claiming. If nothing else, you have to be a completely desensitized oaf to not understand why many people might hold the flag in a negative light, and I’m not friends with those kinds of people, regardless of their views on the flag.
 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 19
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History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 8:14:34 AM
The irony in the "cancelation" of the Dukes of Hazard is that show was due to be dropped from its rotation in 3 weeks and now that broadcaster is using this as a way to get some publicity for themselves. That show was gone in 3 weeks and no one would have been the wiser...but someone figured out a way to get a certain group of people wound up.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 20
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/3/2015 8:42:54 AM
1) this Yankee considers Okie the same way he considers Texas--more "west" than "South". or maybe "southwest"if pushed. I believe there may have been a post-colonial history to this sentiment.

2)redneck used to mean laborer, in the days when pale skill and parasols were popular. It has been embraced to mean more, even before Jeff Foxworthy.

3) I can understand that people have been comfortable with a Con flag for the length of their life. Like using the expression "rule of thumb", which refers to a rule that one couldn't hit their wife with anything thicker than their thumb. After I learned that, I tried to take the expression out of my vocabulary. but I can see someone being so used to something, they don't see it for anything else.

4)i'm not sure what "southern culture" the Con flag represents. and no one on the internet can tell me, either. I understand there is "southern cooking". Maybe the blues are southern. maybe modern redneck culture is seen as southern, but in my mind, modern redneck culture is, "do things in a half assed manner". sleeping with your cousin isn't culture, its laziness.

5)does the Con Flag represent the dead who stood up against the American Constitution? there are war memorials for the Imperial Japanese soldiers, the Nazi war dead, and Iraqis who fought America. call me a racist, but when you lose to America, do you get to put your flag up? do supporters of the Con flag support waving any American Indian flags in defiance? I haven't seen it, but you'd sure think they'd support the native cause, wouldn't you?

6) what it does seem to symbolize to me, is the Republican love for Grover Norquist's proposal--that the American government is too big, too reaching into the affairs of local government (pushing the Civil Rights Act, teaching evolution in schools, taking out prayer, allowing for birth control and abortion, etc), and that government should be small as to be drowned in a bathtub (his words). Its a sign of rebellion, like when your kid comes home with a swear word. doesn't know what it means, but it gets attention and isn't being a contrarian just the coolest thing?

7) the Dukes of Hazard movie with Johnny Knoxville, did bring up the ConFlag on the General Lee, as being offensive. it made fun of its placement. as well as portrayed everyone there as stupid and backward. there was no noble in the savage there.

8) the Civil War was about economics. and what was the South's economics? cotton made cheap thru slave labor, rather than paid labor. Romans and Greeks had slaves as spoils of war, only we Christians had to sell slaves as inferior to humans. When the North lost southern cotton, it started selling the idea of fine Egyptian cotton, a selling point made to this day.
 8inscrew
Joined: 11/17/2014
Msg: 21
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 9:45:13 AM
Hawkingjr.... while you provide a very cognitive answer.... it seems based on a basic fallacy.
Or a very cleverly disguised bait and switch.

See, William T Thompson did not design the flag on the general lee from the dukes of Hazzard county.
William Porcher Miles designed it.

It never was the "confederate" flag. Ever.
Never mind the actual facts, or history.
Let's go ahead and rewrite both because of how you feel about it.

It is currently the copyrighted emblem of the United Confederate Veterans.
Also used by the UCV, SCV, and UDC.

To those veterans and their descendants it means something.
It does not symbolize racism to everyone.
It does symbolize the sacrifice some gave.

That war was fought here.
Families had boys and men on both sides, according to which side of the river they lived on.
There were no conscientious objectors. Able bodies fought, regardless of their views on slavery.
Even if it was against their own kin.

There you go goat. Someone on the internet just told you.
A view different from your own. No less valid.
I also agree that it can symbolize rebellion.
If it makes some feel better to marginalize, misrepresent, condemn.....

that's okay. After all... this is still America.
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 22
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History
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/3/2015 9:53:23 AM

8) the Civil War was about economics. and what was the South's economics? cotton made cheap thru slave labor, rather than paid labor. Romans and Greeks had slaves as spoils of war, only we Christians had to sell slaves as inferior to humans. When the North lost southern cotton, it started selling the idea of fine Egyptian cotton, a selling point made to this day.



+1 ...Post of the day. You could have added that most wars are about money and economics. The Abolitionists were used as propaganda agents to get the masses to support war, the same way Bush used "freedom" to support his conflict.

I am pretty sure most of the Northern business elites didn't want to have to compete with Southern productivity(Slavery). In addition to that, one of the most pressing points was that the Southern states wanted to expand their productivity methods to the new territories and the Northern elites wanted those areas to be free of slavery. Economic conflict!


5)does the Con Flag represent the dead who stood up against the American Constitution? there are war memorials for the Imperial Japanese soldiers, the Nazi war dead, and Iraqis who fought America. call me a racist, but when you lose to America, do you get to put your flag up? do supporters of the Con flag support waving any American Indian flags in defiance? I haven't seen it, but you'd sure think they'd support the native cause, wouldn't you?


You might find this funny in a whimsical way. Does the Cold War count? My super, a Russian ethnic Latvian, came to USA because Latvia discriminates against Russian ethnics since EU inclusion. He , just like many here, has U.S.S.R. flags displayed (many have Russian Federation flags as well).

I overheard him the other day discussing the Confederate flag politics with some of our neighbors. I could swear I heard one of them DARE Obama to go remove the Soviet flags, because that will justify Putin invading Brighton Beach! It was a good laugh! :)

They read stuff like below apparently:
http://hamodia.com/features/surprise-action-putin-invades-annexes-parts-brooklyn/
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 23
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/3/2015 10:15:02 AM
Joe, you're faster on the draw than I was, that's a part I forgot to mention--what really brought the Civil War into action, was the Fed government saying new territories wouldn't have slavery. That would put the South into an eventual minority, as far as representation was concerned. And duh, why did the Pilgrims come here? why were towns settled in my home state by people sick of what the last town was preaching in church every sunday? why did the colonials wage a Revolutionary War against a superpower?

America was made by people who said, "fkkit, we're outa here." or to put a nicer way, "go west young man."

Business elites tend to have something to do with poor boys going to war and dying. I think the Northerners were starting to go to factories and some labor-saving technology, but we ain't talking computerized plants just yet. As for selling any war, anyone can read Thomas Paine to learn about early propaganda. Even the Revolution had to be sold to the Torries.

if a private individual wants to state an opinion, that's free speech. if a private individual wants to drive others into action, that's inflammatory. If a government--local or otherwise--wants to promote an idea...how does the counterargument stand up to that and get equal hearing?
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 24
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/3/2015 11:39:13 AM
I'm not up on the history of your flags but find the debate interesting. How would any of you respond to the stated myths and "facts" contained in this link? http://www.rulen.com/myths/
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 25
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History
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/3/2015 12:21:04 PM
^^^
Interesting, not sure how true each point is or not , or what Lincoln was recorded saying or not. But the war, like most wars, was definitely mostly economic! Letting The South go would have probably gone against the widely held belief of Manifest Destiny as well.

Tidbit: Mayor Fernando Wood of NYC was one of many New York Democrats who were sympathetic to the Confederacy. He suggested to the City Council that New York City secede as the "Free City of Tri-Insula", to continue its profitable cotton trade with the Confederacy. He was confident that the city state would prosper on the import tariffs that then supplied 2/3 of the Federal revenues, and especially dissatisfaction with the state government at Albany ( still as of today).
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