Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  > the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherer      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 BLonde^J^AngeL
Joined: 6/16/2015
Msg: 1
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannahPage 1 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Hi, I saw this in another forumite's post & it piqued my interest & I felt it merited it's own thread...

https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts16435791.aspx


First, the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah. Millennials haven't really invented new ways to hook up.


Personally, I agree. Some have tried to re-invent tthe wheel, but (IMO) a man is a man & a woman is a woman & certain things are just biologically programmed into us, regardless of current sociological "trends"!

(TY HalftimeDad)
 motowncowgirl
Joined: 3/24/2015
Msg: 2
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 5:59:47 AM
yes. because technology doesn't change the species; it only changes the efficiency with which its male members can try to kill, fuck, or piss on something.
 gcdeb
Joined: 4/1/2015
Msg: 3
view profile
History
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 6:38:35 AM

Some have tried to re-invent tthe wheel, but (IMO) a man is a man & a woman is a woman & certain things are just biologically programmed into us, regardless of current sociological "trends"!
You need to provide more detail. Is this LGBT-phobic, anti gay marriage, in support of 'boys will be boys', championing the 'men pay for dinners' cause, ???

I feel I should be objecting to your post but a lot of things that are touted as being 'biologically programmed into us' are really 'sociologically programmed into us' so I'm just not sure what I need to be offended by. Can you be more specific?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 4
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 6:49:13 AM
One of my favourite factoids is that we're not really a monogamous species. We're really just carriers for our genes - all the mating stuff is just mechanisms to get our genes carried forward. Men's testes are bigger than gorillas which are completely monogamous, but much smaller than chimpanzees which are completely promiscuous.

We are monogamish, to steal Dan Savage's word.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 5
view profile
History
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 8:31:13 AM
gcdeb:
I feel I should be objecting to your post but a lot of things that are touted as being 'biologically programmed into us' are really 'sociologically programmed into us' so I'm just not sure what I need to be offended by. Can you be more specific?


I agree with your concern, but so far, I think this is a much more general subject to discuss, and that a broader view is implied.

My Historian's response, is this:

History is the story we tell ourselves about the past, and not the past itself. It changes over time, as our motivations to recount the past change, and as our understanding of ourselves as creatures changes.

This means that there is a sneaky, subtle thing to always watch out for, whenever someone DOES want to re-do how we think about humans: the motivations are all too often the driving factor in pushing for the viewpoint change, rather than any genuine new understandings .

And we have to watch out for the motivations, too. Many people purposely disguise their motivations, either to fool their targets, or vigilant authorities, and most commonly, themselves. Classic example: the people who want to attribute all their behavior to responding to commands from their DNA: some genuinely believe that DNA creates subtle, nuanced programming, leading to everything from courtship to monogamy; others take the exact same "scientific" cover story, and try to excuse everything from casual sex, to thievery and rape.

Overall, I think it IS very valuable to take the time to imagine us as we all are at the core: a not-entirely understood subspecies, on a planet full of similar and varied "cousin" species. I go further, and suggest that the fact that we ARE aware of both biological urges AND of the fact that biological urges of the moment are not always all that logical in the Big Picture, that we need to put in the work needed to balance between those two understandings.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 12/25/2014
Msg: 6
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 9:01:51 AM

Personally, I agree. Some have tried to re-invent tthe wheel, but (IMO) a man is a man & a woman is a woman & certain things are just biologically programmed into us, regardless of current sociological "trends"!


I don't agree for a number of reasons.

1) Evolution happens a lot faster than most people realize, you can google rapid evolution.

Humans continue to evolve, one recent trait is latose tolerance.

Genomic analyses have shown that within a few thousand years, at a rate that evolutionary biologists had thought impossibly rapid, this mutation spread throughout Eurasia, to Great Britain, Scandinavia, the Mediterranean, India and all points in between, stopping only at the Himalayas.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_evolution/2012/10/evolution_of_lactose_tolerance_why_do_humans_keep_drinking_milk.html

2) What makes humans special is our ability to adapt to envirmental and socialogical changes. We can use our brains to change behaviour much more readilty than animals.

So we all adapt.

3) Genes express themselved differently depending on external pressures. You can google "epigenetics", the study of how your internal and external environments change the expression of your genes.
=========================================
But I like to think what is REALLY different this time?

Birth control is REALLY different, allowing casual sex without pregnancy.

The Internet is REALLY different, allowing us to connect with all the different cultures in the world nearly instantaneously.

Being able to travel within 24 hours to any corner of the globe is REALLY different. This increases our genetic diversity and genetic changes to happen more rapidly.

So ....

There is strong evidence that homosexuality is genetic. As far as what is "biologically programmed into us" why are some people born gay? How do they pass on those genes?

IMO there is still more we don't know than we know.
 SLAFFA
Joined: 8/13/2007
Msg: 7
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 9:13:23 AM
Well one thing is abundantly clear. Our basic programming has NOT changed and won't change. [from when we first came down out of the trees and learned to walk upright...which freed our hands to make tools, more specifically weapons...]

As long as FEmales are the only ones to get pregnant, "all" men will be dogs whose basic programming is to impregnate as many females as possible. Being a "slave" to his vision is what enables him to do this very thing with ease AND why a woman's "looks" will almost always be at THE of most men's wish list regardless of age and WHY you almost never see a good looking guy with an average looking girl. A woman's best bet to carry on her own bloodline is to find a "successful" man who is likely to be able to provide better/more resources for any offspring and WHY a man's "looks" are seldom at the TOP of most women's wish lists. Way more common to see "gorgeous" women with average looking guys.

What HAS changed irrevocably, is the convergence of the internet, and "dumb" phones - instant "comunication" - which has enabled the "masses" to be "so much cooler online" by the endless pushing of buttons. And today, we have to throw in the easy availability of pills of all kinds that so many are taking. Helen Fisher says that the popping of anti depressants which is so common today[ at least in the US] basically kills any chances of a real Relationship. Another FACT for the current state of "dating affairs" is the ever escalating ratio of women [versus men] graduating college. The simple translation for this is that many women no longer NEED a man. [for his resources]

The plethora of OLD sites of every conceivable type "allows" MOST folks to think they can be way more picky ONline than in the RW which is why far more threads are devoted to whining and complaining than talking about the advantages that OLD provides.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 8
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 9:58:14 AM

"all" men will be dogs whose basic programming is to impregnate as many females as possible.


That's only one way for men to see their genes carry on. The main way is to ensure that your offspring survive to adulthood. If my original thesis quoted here is correct, then just knocking up females won't be very successful. There will be times of food scarcity and danger in a hunter-gatherer society. Single mothers are less equipped to protect and provide.

The mostly monogamous pair bonding is the best way to get the next generation to adulthood. It's why husbands are more upset if his wife has a sexual/non-emotional relationship with another man, and a wife is more upset if her husband has a non-sexual/emotional relationship with another woman. The husband is going to unsure of parenthood of kids; the wife will see her husband's loyalties divided at times when he will need to provide during times of scarcity.

And as far as communication revolutions go - the move from tribal units to cities was far more revolutionary.

Finally, evolution happens because of environmental pressures. There hasn't been any pressure in the last 5,000 years that would dramatically change the effectiveness of what was wired into us over 100's of thousands of years.
 ClooneysMentor
Joined: 8/2/2015
Msg: 9
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 12:23:38 PM


"all" men will be dogs whose basic programming is to impregnate as many females as possible.


Vasectomies...

The marvels of modern science!
 purplerider1200
Joined: 9/10/2011
Msg: 10
view profile
History
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 12:45:56 PM
There has been one change. Men are no longer conking women over the head with their clubs and dragging them away by their hair.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 11
view profile
History
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 2:58:54 PM

There is strong evidence that homosexuality is genetic. As far as what is "biologically programmed into us" why are some people born gay? How do they pass on those genes?


I don't study biology personally, but I've read that there are more homosexuals in a family where the women have a stronger libido and more frequent sex with their male partners. The men seem to share some of those hormonal traits. I don't know if that's true, but homosexuality happens a lot in other species, so there must be a genetic or environmental explanation for it.


Being able to travel within 24 hours to any corner of the globe is REALLY different. This increases our genetic diversity and genetic changes to happen more rapidly.


I agree that these factors play a role in our evolution, but when we look at attraction and male/female interaction, it seems to be pretty much the same as it was in tribal times. For example, the men that survived where the men who did not try to pick up the alpha male's partner, so cautious men were the survivors that passed down their genes. Also, men and women have the same attraction triggers. Men are attracted to a woman's appearance and what looks to him as a good mate for passing on his genes. Women had to align themselves with strong alpha males in tribal times to ensure their survival and their children's survival. Not much has changed in terms of attraction triggers for humans.
 Whistle_Stop
Joined: 4/9/2015
Msg: 12
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 3:04:14 PM

Overall, I think it IS very valuable to take the time to imagine us as we all are at the core: a not-entirely understood subspecies, on a planet full of similar and varied "cousin" species. I go further, and suggest that the fact that we ARE aware of both biological urges AND of the fact that biological urges of the moment are not always all that logical in the Big Picture, that we need to put in the work needed to balance between those two understandings.

Good points! After all....unlike the apes we do have an exceptional... thinking brain and can reason, love and have all those other emotions.....well, most of us can.
I'm not believing this men are men and need to spread their seed to produce thing....we have evolved....come on!
 BLonde^J^AngeL
Joined: 6/16/2015
Msg: 13
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 3:53:55 PM

You need to provide more detail.

I can't possible share as much as I'd like to but after taking a course in Evolutionary Psychology 15 years ago OMG! I read Helen Fisher before she was trendy!


Is this LGBT-phobic, anti gay marriage
hell no!


in support of 'boys will be boys'

I don't really understand THAT one


championing the 'men pay for dinners' cause, ???

IF a man asked me out & I was into him, sure I'd let him pay. I'm no gold digger, rarely drink booze eat very little now, so I'd be a reasonable dinner date...an unsweetened ice tea & an appetizer LoL


I feel I should be objecting to your post but a lot of things that are touted as being 'biologically programmed into us' are really 'sociologically programmed into us'

There is a lot of scientific evidence that proves many of our behaviors are evolutionary & I do espouse science. I also concede some things are societal, but I'd say the lion's share (pun intended) is BIOLOGICAL.

I think you would enjoy a course in Evolutionary Biology/Psychology, or at least reading about mate selection & biology as well as some soft science experiments regarding male/female interaction.

Males are most comfortable in a restaurant sitting w/ their backs to a wall so they can see the entire room. When I have a meal out w/ a male, I always choose "the girl seat"!

If a woman wants to be sexually attractive to a male, she should wear something that shows or gives the illusion of her waist to hip ratio (hence the pencil skirt), & a pair of heels maybe 2 inches or more (emphasizes the female gait) a push up bra, wear her hair longer & flowing. A little color in the lips & cheeks also are "signals"...

Also the western culture is so obsessed w/ hygiene, we wash away our pheremones by showering too often. A woman going on a date should shower no less than 2 hours b4 a date & then engage in some light physical activity, like vacuuming her living room, as to release some pheremones that were washed away in the shower.

If going to a movie, something that is very action packed, like a suspense thriller will make the man more aroused towards his date rather than a comedy.

Men are sexual creatures, so are women, why not celebrate the differences rather than deny them? I'm a feminine woman who enjoys a masculine man.

read Deida's "Intimate Communion" specifically on sexual polarity b/w men & women.
 BLonde^J^AngeL
Joined: 6/16/2015
Msg: 14
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 4:11:22 PM
http://www.psyencelab.com/images/Human_Mate_Selection_Theory_An_Integrated_Evolutionary_and_Social_Approach.pdf


http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=6734712&fileId=S0140525X00023992

Abstract
Contemporary mate preferences can provide important clues to human reproductive history. Little is known about which characteristics people value in potential mates. Five predictions were made about sex differences in human mate preferences based on evolutionary conceptions of parental investment, sexual selection, human reproductive capacity, and sexual asymmetries regarding certainty of paternity versus maternity. The predictions centered on how each sex valued earning capacity, ambition— industriousness, youth, physical attractiveness, and chastity. Predictions were tested in data from 37 samples drawn from 33 countries located on six continents and five islands (total N = 10,047). For 27 countries, demographic data on actual age at marriage provided a validity check on questionnaire data. Females were found to value cues to resource acquisition in potential mates more highly than males. Characteristics signaling reproductive capacity were valued more by males than by females. These sex differences may reflect different evolutionary selection pressures on human males and females; they provide powerful cross-cultural evidence of current sex differences in reproductive strategies. Discussion focuses on proximate mechanisms underlying mate preferences, consequences for human intrasexual competition, and the limitations of this study.
 2ufo
Joined: 2/28/2015
Msg: 15
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 4:43:41 PM


There is strong evidence that homosexuality is genetic. As far as what is "biologically programmed into us" why are some people born gay? How do they pass on those genes?


I don't study biology personally, but I've read that there are more homosexuals in a family where the women have a stronger libido and more frequent sex with their male partners. The men seem to share some of those hormonal traits. I don't know if that's true, but homosexuality happens a lot in other species, so there must be a genetic or environmental explanation for it.


It's been a long time since my last evolutionary genetics course, but as I recall in certain species (I think our example was paper wasps) the homosexual male assists the sister units in protecting her young which are as genetically close to him as his own offspring would be. Your comment is interesting, I think I'll look for that research.

Without any scientific proof, I would theorize that humans derived from pack animals like killer whales or elephants or lions where young males are chased out of the group and must go discover new territory while the females essentially stay put. It would explain why females have a better spatial memory (i.e. memorizing territory-based resources) while males became better at reaction time and orientation. I would also theorize that genetic diversity is developed during times of plenty (or less ecological stress) and it is during these stressful times that certain genes die out due to the greater stress from environment and predation. It's been a long time since classes.
 7seatac
Joined: 8/12/2015
Msg: 16
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 5:28:15 PM
^^^ No. I think to any of us that read this correctly, the post is basically about - the more things change, the more they stay the same. Men and women have been seeking each other out for eons and not much has changed. We still basically "look" for the same characteristics as our ancestors.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 17
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 5:29:20 PM

Without any scientific proof, I would theorize that humans derived from pack animals like killer whales or elephants or lions where young males are chased out of the group and must go discover new territory while the females essentially stay put.


That makes no sense at all. If you look at other primates, none of them display this behaviour.

It was actually when we started walking upright that we had to form close tribes. By walking upright we were able to hunt down prey - other predators are much, much faster in a sprint, but we can beat a horse over 10 miles. That was the big advantage it gave us. Unfortunately it meant smaller hips, which meant infants that are woefully undeveloped at birth. It may not take a village to raise a child, but it definitely takes a tribe.

Evolution definitely happens during times of plenty. But only if certain traits lead to increased numbers of offspring growing to adulthood. As an example, look at twins and triplets. On the savanna, these undersized infants which needed twice as much milk as a single infant were less likely to survive. So humans don't have litters. Despite living in a time of plenty, multiple births are still a tiny minority of live births. Because we are only a few generations removed from our hunter gatherer ancestors.
 gcdeb
Joined: 4/1/2015
Msg: 18
view profile
History
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 5:45:28 PM

Males are most comfortable in a restaurant sitting w/ their backs to a wall so they can see the entire room. When I have a meal out w/ a male, I always choose "the girl seat"!
Actually dating/restaurant etiquette is for the woman to be seated so she can see the room.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 19
Is it too soon to bring up Caitlyn Jenner?
Posted: 8/22/2015 5:53:22 PM
Supposedly in Roman times, there were orgies. And those French always had a rep. And the Wild West had its prostitutes, and the 1920's flappers were not only "cutting the rug", and according the TMC show "Mad Men" our moms who worked in the cities were always getting hit on, unless they were "farmers daughters" out in the countryside with shotgun weddings.

give it any name you want, dress it up in any fancy paper dress you want...if something hot'n'steamy's chasin yo a$$, you aren't going to think about it too much. Even young boys figure out not every girl in class has cooties.
 7seatac
Joined: 8/12/2015
Msg: 20
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 5:56:33 PM
In my experience, men like their back against the wall. I have a lot of friends in policing and military and they prefer back against the wall. It's a protection thing, see the room. It doesn't bother me at all. Is there a book on dating etiquette? I'd just like to see more people who know how to hold their fork correctly.

And I agree with Halftimedad, walking upright was the kicker. We're not pack animals like wolves or whales, it's all about the monkeys.
 2ufo
Joined: 2/28/2015
Msg: 21
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 6:07:29 PM

That makes no sense at all. If you look at other primates, none of them display this behaviour.

But look at the environment of the other primates - the tropical rain forests which is far different than the savannah which is popularly considered the habitat of early hominids.


It was actually when we started walking upright that we had to form close tribes.

I suspect that clans/tribes/family units/whatever we want to call them were well developed before bipedal walking. Baboons (the largest savannah ape) is so 'clannish' that when stranger baboons were introduced to the London Zoon in the 1930's they killed each other (including females) because they were all from different troops.


Evolution definitely happens during times of plenty. But only if certain traits lead to increased numbers of offspring growing to adulthood. As an example, look at twins and triplets. On the savanna, these undersized infants which needed twice as much milk as a single infant were less likely to survive. So humans don't have litters. Despite living in a time of plenty, multiple births are still a tiny minority of live births. Because we are only a few generations removed from our hunter gatherer ancestors.

I think there is more genetic diversification during plenty - because there is little or no competition. It is when competition for resources grows that the gene less fit for that environment dies out. I don't think it would be the milk supply for twins that would cause earlier death.... a mother's milk production is regulated by how much her child/ren nurse. However, carrying and birthing twins is far more deadly for the mother than carrying a single child. In fact, archaeologist recently unearthed the burial of a woman who died in breech, both children in situ.

ETA: I like to have my back to the wall looking out to the room also. Quite often, when I go out we get a corner table so both of us can keep our backs covered.
 ClooneysMentor
Joined: 8/2/2015
Msg: 22
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 6:09:51 PM


There is strong evidence that homosexuality is genetic


Back against the wall...
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 23
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 6:25:17 PM
Sociological changes are just that: societal.

Mating behaviour is hard wired. It's why couples share food during the courtship phase. Go to any restaurant where there are couples on early dates - you will see them feeding each other. There are so many examples that cross any cultural barriers.
 7seatac
Joined: 8/12/2015
Msg: 24
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 6:42:44 PM
I am well aware that of late many men and women have chosen to remain solo and have no children or marry. But there is still a yen for companionship of some sort, there aren't too many 65 year old virgins out there. I know many couples, yes, couples, that chose not to have children. But I think the majority still have a child or two. And the majority still couple in one form or another whether living together or apart. We are social creatures for the most part and still, for the most part, want a partner in some way, shape or form. So people, both men and women, don't HAVE to seek a mate nor depend on a mate but they do.
 2ufo
Joined: 2/28/2015
Msg: 25
the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah
Posted: 8/22/2015 6:45:39 PM

There is a theory that we are descended from some type of water mammal. I can't remember the woman (TEDtalk) but she said that all monkeys and apes do not have the natural inclination to walk upright except to do only one thing: cross water. I'll try and find that link...


Aquatic Ape Theory - Elaine Morgan

ETA: Below - aquatic mammals and humans are pretty much the only species that mate facing each other. Oh, yes, and orangutangs but they do it hanging from trees by their arms.
Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  > the whole boy/girl thing hasn't changed since we were hunter-gatherers on the African savannah