Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 JustinElle
Joined: 4/11/2015
Msg: 1
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPEPage 1 of 1    
The Abrahamic roller coaster all started in earnest when they wrote it all down, around 500BC. So around 2500 years old. Civilisation started around 7000 to 5500 years ago and previously over 200,000 with the lack of ideologically controlled religious indoctrination seems it’s a bit of new invention.

Originality is a rare thing in religious writing circles, plagiarism and repackaging is the accepted process, as the target flock was localised and unworldly. The monotheist ideas started long before Mr Abraham was invented..

Amenhotep IV could be said to have invented the concept of monotheism a good walk down the road from what we now call Israel around 1336 BC. According to dating of the text by Orthodox rabbis, the start of the TORAH occurred in 1112 BCE, not actually written but using the oral tradition. Around 6-700 years later the scribes were inspired as some might say to write it all down, posterity and all that. These respected scribblers invented a history for the local goat herders in a scrubland used mainly by armies bent on marching about for regional domination. By 5-600BC a more urbanising landscape emerged, and in order to unify a bunch of sex worshiping peasants into the concept of a sovereign state the scribblers and charlatans plied their trade. No 1 on the list was the subjugation of female sexuality and that took quite a bit of time to eradicate all dissent through religious violence, but it eventually worked..

Obviously around 5-600BC this dumbing down, and exploitative ruling of the peasantry was not as sophisticated as the western powers achieved in carving up the Middle East from the Ottoman Empire. We now all accepted the “natural” state of the carve up as given. So common people accept adulteration quickly you try to imagine the effect of the written word on a people who could not read or write, where the writings of man, male values, became the word of god, dictated word for word from his greatness and his trusted appointed mediums. Social control through divine powers is hard for the peasantry to question never mind argue with, especially when his almightiness refuses to take direct questioning.

So it’s a historically new set of ideas, which strangely was happening at the same time when Mr Buddha changed from riches for rags, Zoroaster in Persia, Pythagoras and his angles in Greece and Mr Confucius and Laozi, author of Taoismin created ideas in China, all revolutionary ideas at the time. They were to the existing corrupt establishment the equivalent of Taliban/ ISIS.

From its inception religion is at its base a business, where the educated superior elites feed off the efforts of the rest of society, the original parasitic hierarchal class. But thousands or hundreds of years later people are still as suspicious, doubtful and fearful of life in general as their forefathers were. Using god to sanctify killing any opposition keeps the coffered full, and feeding the fear of the other rigidly strong. You can it seems fool most of the people intergenerationally.
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/13/2017 6:15:41 PM
Um...ok. What?
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 3
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/13/2017 7:52:59 PM
This guy is no doubt a professional troll


From its inception religion is at its base a business,


yeah, and secularism isn't!
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 4
view profile
History
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/14/2017 11:46:57 PM
To the OP.

What is the purpose of the statement? If faith and belief are a consequence of the unfit or incapable mind (those who can be conned into the system/those who are brainwashed into the system) how can one hope to convince such a mind of a complex but historically accurate perspective (not that I agree with EVERY point you made). a simple rebuttal to your argument, from one of the faithful, could be, "sounds like the work of the devil to me. We all know that the world is only six thousand years old; you see, it says so right here in the bible."

I think that something must grow/change within a person for any real progress to be made, or perhaps there is something innate in certain individuals, that inevitably breaks them free of the conditioning - in cases of brainwashing. Perhaps these cases of brainwashing are the only ones who can be free of the hold that religion exerts, to distinguish from those who actively seek the influence of religion without prior conditioning (in theory, the latter would be a sign of a mind incapable of coming to terms with more complex ideas/explanations, however this does not exclude them from the potential for change). the distinction being that the former will seek out help/ultimately is helping theirself, where as, the latter is comfortable with the explanation already in hand (in cases of prior conditioning) or actively seeks out the most easily comprehended explanation.

If innate solution: identify common factors (environmental, social, biological) and attempt to replicate within other individuals on a massive scale.

If personal growth/change solution: identify common factors (environmental, social, biological) and attempt to replicate within other individuals on a massive scale.

This ^^^ is the problem. These solutions would never be accepted by society at large as acceptable social behavior.

So, we are forced to wait and let nature take its course. If recent history (last three hundred years) is any sign as to what the future holds in store for humanity, I would say that Abrahamic type religions only have maybe another two hundred years of life left in them. To answer my initial question: the purpose is to deliver information to those who can bridge the gap now - to those who are interested in helping to facilitate the demise of "Religion", it is important to know your role as well as your audience.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 5
view profile
History
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/15/2017 12:57:07 AM
All of the known conspiracy theories are part of one huge plot with no axes.

A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE

"It was the duty of philosophy to destroy the illusions which had their origin in misconceptions, whatever darling hopes and valued expectations may be ruined by its explanations." - Immanuel Kant

the purpose is to deliver information to those who can bridge the gap now

Information? No offense, but Kant was a better salesman. We want to see some DESTROYERS OF ILLUSIONS with our future bread and circuses, please. Philosophers in flaming monster trucks.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 6
view profile
History
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/15/2017 5:15:16 AM
^^^ So, you're looking for some thing more like this then?

https://youtu.be/8BWz9Ti7eJ0

it's not the right time to be sober
now the idiots have taken over
spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?

Mensa membership conceding
tell me why and how are all the stupid people breeding
Watson, it's really elementary
the industrial revolution
has flipped the b!tch on evolution
the benevolent and wise are being thwarted, ostracized, what a bummer
the world keeps getting dumber
insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason

darwin's rollin over in his coffin
the fittest are surviving much less often
now everything seems to be reversing, and it's worsening
someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool
now angry mob mentality's no longer the exception, it's the rule
and im startin to feel a lot like charlton heston
stranded on a primate planet
apes and orangutans that ran it to the ground
with generals and the armies that obeyed them
followers following fables
philosophies that enable them to rule without regard

there's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

what are we left with?
a nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
pass on traditions
how to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture

the idiots are takin over [x8]
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 7
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/15/2017 11:57:37 PM

Information? No offense, but Kant was a better salesman.


I don't get it, elaborate;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4SBy8SItEc

funny thing about Kants book, you don't have to really to read it anymore, it is like you learn it yourself when learning math/logic/science. It is like it becomes common sense once you reached a certain level of maturity/understanding in logic
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 8
view profile
History
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/16/2017 12:30:01 AM
Should be pretty clear, but if I have to spell it out...

The quote of Kant's that I gave says it's the duty of philosophy to destroy the illusions which had their origin in misconceptions. Whereas Cress had expressed the purpose as delivering information to those that are in a position to receive it.

If the purpose of the thread and beyond is to promote critical rationalism for the good of society, then Kant's more dramatic sales pitch centered on the destruction of illusions is a better marketing strategy for recruitment and adoption within our ADHD/consumerist society. In other words, in a crowded marketplace the ability to generate interest is more dependent upon presentation than content. However, this is not the case with philosophy where content is all that matters, hence the amusing juxtaposition of philosophers having to perform in flaming monster trucks to get some attention for their ideas. When that happens, the lowest common denominator will have finally won.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 9
view profile
History
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/16/2017 2:24:33 AM
^^^ perhaps some subtleties in my remarks were over looked? Kant and I are basically saying the same thing here. In my remarks I condemn the approach taken in the OP as largely ineffective, continue on to explain the core audience, and end with "know your audience".

Aside from that, I use "Philosophers in flaming monster trucks" quite a bit in my writing/arguments: Gorge Carlin (it doesn't get much more big and flaming than that) Bad Religion, NOFX (in this very thread) ect. And despite my intellectual style of writing, I do try to gear it towards comedy when and where I can. What is your idea of "Philosophers in flaming monster trucks?" Tell me it's not the Richard Dawkins of the world? I am pretty sure that the two bands and the comedian I just mentioned have been more successful as agents of change than Richard Dawkins.

One of the sad parts about philosophies with complex ideologies is that they are often very difficult to deliver to the public in a highly entertaining way. And those who actually succeed at doing this have a very rare genius about them.

The idea is to make sure that information is available in all forms. "Philosophers in flaming monster trucks" may be that necessary initial hook, but at some point the fish is going to want to talk the the fisherman.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 10
view profile
History
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/16/2017 3:23:20 AM
here's another flamingly good example HAHA!

https://youtu.be/9v8oDqN76Mc

as one YouTube commenter said "Rhyming mandate with man dates? Genius."
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 11
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/16/2017 5:45:09 PM
people use religion to debrainwash themselves, perhaps it isn't the best substitute for their default, maybe for some it is or it is the best alternative. Some people actually need religion, just as it could be argued the people require a government, but whatever activity is substituted for religion, it doesn't matter, it is still equal to religion, hence you all have a religion.

Now tell me what is your religion? Do I call you a Christian, a soldier, or a Mathematician, professor, bishop? Wait, why did we all gather together on this day, in the name of what? Oh yea, we are watching Sausage Party in the movie theater.

The Abrahamic religions may die off, but I'd be more worried about what would be its substitution as it will be something of equal value.

Perhaps we will all watch the Superbowl today, I don't know, get me a beer woman.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 12
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/16/2017 8:07:42 PM
justinelle- Clearly, you have a problem with religion.
That is the theme in many of the threads you start.
Are you right?
In SOME aspects, sure you are.
A LOT of terrible things have been done throughout history, in the name of religion, by people who have LITTLE understanding of religion, ironically.
Let's NOT throw the baby out with the bath water.
We HAVE to understand that there is MORE in play here than JUST religion.
There is the issue of mental health, for one.
Then there is the issue of intelligence, but let's NOT bring THAT up, there are people here who LOVE the elitist label.
It doesn't matter which opinion you follow, as far as who has it right, as to WHY people do the things they do.
Erickson came CLOSEST to getting it right, IMO, but no one has it COMPLETELY right. (don't EVEN get me started about Freud, whom I like to refer to as Fraud)
As much as you might LOATH religion, it has become a part of society, it is NOT going to be undone, at this point.
All you can do, all anyone can do, is pay attention, speak out if things go TOO far, but you can NOT keep telling people they are wrong to follow their religion.
It's the whole "preaching to the choir" phenomenon, just turned on its head.
People are GOING to do what makes them comfortable, what makes them feel safe, even if they are unknowingly doing the reverse.
This is the price we pay to live in a free society.
You can NOT keep your right to NOT believe and then turn around and keep railing against people who do.
That isn't the way free society works.
 JustinElle
Joined: 4/11/2015
Msg: 13
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/17/2017 1:54:47 PM
Obviously everyone has their own or in some cases second hand views they like to air, but my point was not philosophical, naval gazing anti religion at all. It is how innate psychological structures have been "tampered with" to make individuals assume they have flaws, imperfections, and other imagined attributes. And like all thinking they flawed but aware machines they seek to repair the damage, and in so doing are lured globally into the philosophical or ideological trap.

Philosophy is when considered from a survival strategy point of view, just introversion, naval gazing, which from an evolutionary perspective for most of the 6 million years since we split from an ancestor shared by chimpanzees can be only described as suicidal.

In an urban environment philosophical thinking is fine as its safe, no predators, just the usual male human rivals competing for the elixir of dominance.

So please have the usual males mass debate of angels on pinheads or the equivalent hair splitting game. Please pretend the point is religious, philosophical or whatever , while scratching scrotum in a dignified and serious way.

Religion, ideology, deep thought, introverted constructs are a relatively new introduction to the human animal. It was not necessary for millions of years, as tuning our senses to remain alert and alive were necessary, but not now in our sophisticated world.

Making a child doubt itself is where the indoctrination starts, and years of conditioning might have a chance of perspective reconsideration but only in the light of knowledge.

Knowledge not just blinds but also illuminates.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 14
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/17/2017 9:46:51 PM
Justinelle- Credit where credit is due, you make me think, to the point where you give me a headache, so point to you, although, I do NOT think that was your intent.
ok, so you are saying this is NOT about religion.
But, you go WAY wrong when you say.....
"It is how innate psychological structures have been "tampered with" to make individuals assume they have flaws, imperfections, and other imagined attributes."
I know what you are suggesting here.
You are saying that people, at large, are gullible and subject to influence, whether it is right or wrong, SOME hear it often enough, it becomes like animals that are conditioned over time to respond to reward and the bell, the treat.
We are talking over a LOT of peoples heads with this, which is why I cautioned you earlier about the elitist label, but oh well, I get it and so do you.
Here's the thing, people DO have flaws.
No one can prove a negative and that is where YOUR thinking is flawed.
Granted, there are people who never question what they are taught.
HOWEVER, there are people who DO.
Hence, here are two of us, debating.
Only one of us does NOT get the FACT that there ARE people who refuse to go get a treat whenever the bell rings, and thank goodness for us.
May I suggest that we NOT debate this further?
I got banned once and should we KEEP discussing this, you, or I, or both, could wind up getting banned, again.
Let's just say, that we might disagree on SOME things, but I understand you better than you think on OTHER things.
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/17/2017 9:55:47 PM

people use religion to debrainwash themselves, perhaps it isn't the best substitute for their default, maybe for some it is or it is the best alternative. Some people actually need religion, just as it could be argued the people require a government, but whatever activity is substituted for religion, it doesn't matter, it is still equal to religion, hence you all have a religion.

Now tell me what is your religion? Do I call you a Christian, a soldier, or a Mathematician, professor, bishop? Wait, why did we all gather together on this day, in the name of what? Oh yea, we are watching Sausage Party in the movie theater.

The Abrahamic religions may die off, but I'd be more worried about what would be its substitution as it will be something of equal value.

Perhaps we will all watch the Superbowl today, I don't know, get me a beer woman.

It's really quite useless to call any and every thing 'religion' or religious. It doesn't do us any good towards understanding things to have an understanding of religion such that everything could be described as such.
 JustinElle
Joined: 4/11/2015
Msg: 16
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 2/18/2017 4:06:33 AM
Narcissism is the overwhelming pastime for the individual with too much time on their hands they do not know what to do with. When this is combined with the ability to think about this mental delusion using their lack of emotional understanding, like a black hole they slip over the event horizon and into the realms of introspection.

So narcissism can make one think one can walk on water, or fly to dizzying heights as well as plummet the darkness of what is wrong with themselves, their lives and the world in general. The latter form is both highly sustainable and addictive to the unwary. If its having an ear on the op of one head, three nostrils, a limp in the eye, or a twitch in the groin, its hand to have a mirror to examine the condition in greater detail. Spotting the fault is a favorite pastime for some. Spotting the spot is often a teenage passion where the offending eruption is squeezed emptying its bacterial contamination to razor fingernails to be ferried around facial areas and deposited in other fertile areas.

So narcissism becomes a self fulfilling nightmare for the ones that choose this enlightening pathway. With enough time and suitable effort conditions such as depression can easily be accessed, in the most consuming game of digging a hole and then digging deeper so one finds it to varying degrees harder to extradite oneself from.

But as flaw finding is a narcissistic pursuit, one has to question how self doubt was allowed to occur in the child to begin with, as its not what one might call a natural survival strategy, but one that civilized folk find somewhat irresistible.

Thus the traditional Oil Snake salesmen in various guises over the last 10K years or so, offer hope to the self deluded, in a variety of forms, and if one looks at diet, or fitness today we see how the affluent educated converted flock to the call of the narcissistic call.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 17
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 4/5/2017 11:25:58 AM
I've only just seen this thread, and, tbh., I'm already feeling a bit out of my depth, because people are name-dropping famous philosophers, -which I've never read!

-But I do like to think, and my dad was a big 'fan' of Socrates, and left me a book. And sometimes, when I'm trying to "look clever", I drop the odd quote.
Anyhoo...

I was thinking about religion, and politics, and nationalism, and "identity politics", and "race", and all that other good stuff, as you do...
-And why people do it.
It occurred to me that maybe it's some residual "memory" from our evolved simian past, that makes people gravitate towards "identity politics", -whether that's "race", religions, nationalism, or whatever. ( for some, it's football teams)
Maybe there's some innate "need" to feel part of an "in-group", to have a "tribe"?

I take your point about religion being "imposed", with "Christianity", that's been done since the roman conquests, and continued with the monarchy, and state-sponsored "education".
But most of the "christians" I've argued with, have embraced it purely voluntarily, (leaving aside their likely "brainwashing" as children)
And they like to very publicly "wear" their religions. (As do many other religious cults)
I think religions are just sort of self-congratulatory 'social clubs'.

I'm not a philosopher (because I've never read enough), but it seems strange to me, that any individual should only be able to feel that he/she truly has an "identity", when they're part of a crowd.
Maybe I'm "lacking a gene", or something, but to me, you only ever truly have an identity, when you're NOT.

I enjoyed your OP., and thought it insightful.
Good work.
And thanks.
It's nice to see that I'm not the only one "plagued" by thinking, or carrying around a head full of shit.
 bobbyjo101
Joined: 5/13/2017
Msg: 18
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 6/4/2017 8:06:51 AM
Lay off the crack pipe?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 19
view profile
History
A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE
Posted: 6/4/2017 9:44:46 AM
Justinelle:

Philosophy is when considered from a survival strategy point of view, just introversion, naval gazing, which from an evolutionary perspective for most of the 6 million years since we split from an ancestor shared by chimpanzees can be only described as suicidal.


This is just one of a number of erroneous statements in your posts here, including the opening one. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that you have made a number of statements which you think or say are facts, which are really just your own personal opinions, not supported by any dispassionate and unbiased study of known ACTUAL facts.

Philosophy is actually a word that our society uses to refer to the collective set of background assumptions, deductions, instincts if any, and so on, that any entity uses or starts from, while making moment to moment choices about what to do in their life. It is therefore amusingly true, that someone who declares that they have NO philosophy, is really more adamantly philosophical than those who dedicate themselves to blindly obeying someone ELSE's philosophy.

As for all the seemingly angry rhetoric in the opening post, I submit as an alternative view of it all, that the most common observable behavior of humanity as a group of individuals, is that no matter what one of them comes up with and why, someone ELSE will try to find a way to use it to do something else entirely. For example, a very great deal of the work that usually gets named by everyone as being organized "philosophy," started out as a very practical effort to accomplish basic day to day tasks, with as much fun, and as little strife as possible. But as soon as a large enough group of people cooperated about whatever it was, someone with a different set of goals, popped up and declared that it was either an abomination, or a fundamental set of Truths, which needed to be forced on everyone else. Sometimes that was a sincere effort, and sometimes it was a pure power or wealth grab. But the fact that someone invents, oh, say, a pocket knife, to make it easier to get small jobs done around the neighborhood, someone else will come along and decide that it also works great to slash throats. Or threaten to, anyway. It isn't honest to blame the person who invented the thing in order to carve wood to make hand tools, for it's use by a murderous thug. The same is true of things like philosophy and related concepts.
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > A little knowledge is best exploited with the concept of HOPE