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 JewelsnTools
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
I just read TEN PAGES of an incredible thread about MGTOW, but now I can't find it!!!!????
Anyway,
There's something like it happening in Japan. The young people are foregoing matching up in droves! The young men have been called, "Herbivore Men" because they just aren't going for the 'meat'.
What I found really interesting (among other things) was that the three groups that seemed to be the most bothered by it were the government (taxes not being paid by potential 'salarymen'), the court system (?), and obviously the women who were wishing to have children!
Although I wouldn't need a "movement" to simply do what I felt was best for my own life, some folks seem to feel a need to band together to "go their own (respective) ways".
I think it's a good thing that young PEOPLE are becoming more sovereign in their life choices--not simply following the dictates of their societies. This story came out of Japan, but it's happening here, too. And it's not just the men-- women are choosing to remain single and retain our own sense of agency in our own lives. I think that's a good thing.
Any thoughts on WHY the young people of Japan are foregoing marriage/family/career-lock-downs? Heck, judging from the dismal forecast, I can't say I blame them for opting for other avenues!
Thoughts?
Jewels
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 2
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/15/2017 9:49:43 PM
MGTOW is like some method to vent out frustration, sort of what feminism has become. A real 'mgtow' wouldn't use this idea or concept to label themselves such, they would just do their own thing, what ever their passion is, without the thought of 'yea, im doing this to go my own way, **** dating...'. Just read some of the posts by men who claim themselves to be 'mgtow' it is usually backed up with a complaint to the other gender, the dating game, or some self-pity statement.

japan is going to be the first to have relationships with robots, i guess that is where it is headed
 JewelsnTools
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/16/2017 8:26:42 AM
Ugh...what a terrible, saddening thought--robots, technology, replacing the warmth, connection, and tenderness that we can give one another. Oh wait--that's what porn's doing now, right?? Setting us up to be 'satisfied' with something that can't laugh, think, commiserate, or cuddle?
On a different forum, a person wrote about how men, from early ages, have to become accustomed to being 'devalued' by women. I thought he had a valid point, but that he had the devaluing agent wrong. "Women" aren't the enemies of men-- a society that makes them hurt and kill and scrape to value themselves is. "Men" aren't the enemies of women-- a society that devalues our contributions as worthless, views us as objects and mere receptacles, and tells us that without some other person, we have no ability to think, dream, and serve our own heart's passions adequately is.
I have, indeed, read some of the posts by men who claimed to be 'mgtow', here, and it really did seem like a very thin veneer over some deep hurt and resentment, usually. What seems odd is that both groups, women and men, have been led to believe (by whom, I wonder?) that the other was the problem. How could I, as a woman, 'hate' the warm, funny, loving, giving, tender, tough, awesome, masculine, protective, genuine, fiery being whose energy so completely matches my own? How, if left to his own devices (not the manipulated nonsense of society), could a man 'hate' the touch, softness, intuitiveness, strength, receptivity, creativity, intelligence, wildness, and loyalty to the tribe of this inspiring being whose energy so completely matches his own?? How have we come to so 'hate' our own 'tag team' partners??? Who or what condition in our collective lives has set us at one anothers' throats???
I can fully understand the desire to vent frustration. We ALL are frustrated with not just the 'dating game', but with all of the invisible 'fences' that keep us running for fewer and fewer crumbs on society's treadmill--but why not, instead, use that energy to learn what the real problem is?
In Japan, it doesn't seem to be so much an f-off to women, so much as a refusal to continue being the thankless drones of a system that grinds them to powder and then spits them out. It's like they're voting with their hearts, minds, and feet AGAINST an entire system that treats them like cannon fodder, work horses, and tribute payers. Frankly, I don't blame them! They seem to be serving as the 'coal mine canaries' of their society. All the pressure of history, bearing down upon them, to somehow 'fix' the mess that previous political systems have left them. They're refusing to serve as scapegoats! And even though some of the reports say that the 'women' are also complaining, further research indicates that the young women (of the H.M.'s cohort) ARE JOINING THEM IN REFUSING TO BE USED by an outmoded traditional system!
The difference between theirs and ours, that I'm seeing, is that those young people aren't emotionally gutting and maiming EACH OTHER as 'the problem'. They're just quietly refusing to bow to an outmoded system that no longer serves their best interests. Makes sense!
Also, these young men are not 'gay'. They are still interested in being intimate with women, and the young women are still receptive to them. Maybe if we would have adopted a more egalitarian system, in the first place, we wouldn't have such a desperate need for such a draconian move for these now 'fed up' young people to have to make.
It would be great to stand beside (not behind, not before) my brothers in a "pgonm" ideology--"People Getting Our Needs Met".
There are some intelligent, insightful, deep-thinking people on this board. There are also some tender, care-filled, thoughtful, emotionally mature people here. For the life of me, I don't understand why the 'answer' is for us to divide even further. Okay, so our traditional roles no longer work--let's roll up our sleeves, TOGETHER, and hammer out some new ones that won't leave our kids desperate like Herbivore Men, having to eschew loving connection just so they can live in peace..
Thanks for answering, KD!
Jewels
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 4
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/16/2017 11:11:37 AM

Ugh...what a terrible, saddening thought--robots, technology, replacing the warmth, connection, and tenderness that we can give one another. Oh wait--that's what porn's doing now, right?? Setting us up to be 'satisfied' with something that can't laugh, think, commiserate, or cuddle?


Robots/AI could do the intimacy/romance, but of course the AI would have to be convincing, otherwise it would be like having a relationship with a doll that doesn't react, which of course modern people find odd. But an AI that interacted/reacted like a human, to the point you would have to ask whether it was AI or human, wouldn't be that odd.

I'd be more worried about people opting out of the whole 'game', by taking some pill of some kind that deactivates the desire for intimacy/romance/etc completely, no sexual attraction, nothing. Which is probably more close to us, than the whole AI romance thing.

Herbivore Men- as long as they aren't doing it out of some frustration, lack of confidence, depression, then I don't see a problem with it. 'There are too many people' anyway, I mean its better than having another trans population, which seems to be more of a 'problem' as its goal seems to be a destruction/confusion of gender/sexes.

Of course what we have today wont be here as it is today somewhere down the road of evolution, love and intimacy is probably one of them. It only makes it more worthwhile, to know that it won't always be here.
 JewelsnTools
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Posted: 2/16/2017 10:38:18 PM
Wouldn't it be convenient if 'AI' could be convincing? It would always be in the uppermost part of my mind that this 'machine' could NEVER know what it was to plan, build, triumph, and connect on a 'human' level--- I don't think I'd be buying one, any time soon!
I'm neither a techonphobe nor a technophile. I still prefer the warmth, fun, and connection I feel when I'm with another person who 'gets' me. Having had that, there is NOTHING that can compare to the feeling that someone is genuinely glad to be near me! LOVE that!
Has it really come to that? The taking of a pill to turn us off to one another?? Perish the thought! I've been alive long enough to know that no 'appliance' will EVER evoke from me the reaction that the rough, work-worn hand of my lover can bring. I can't even imagine that that would ever be anything I'd value--- I still like men!
Do we ever wake up and decide, for ourselves, that what we can have TOGETHER-- as human beings-- is ALWAYS going to be more valuable than any 'convenience' we could get from fraternizing with machines?
It would be a good thing if we re-considered the perceived value of what currently 'is'. Even if we were to develop technologically-based 'attendants', no real, living, feeling, real human being would be able to mistake that for the sense of connection she/he could have with another human being, don't you think?
The Herbivore men don't seem to be doing it out of frustration with the young women who are still interested in them, nor do they seem to be doing it out of a lack of confidence in their ability to draw attention from the young women who surround them. It's more that they've decided that they're no longer willing to be 'pawns' for a system that doesn't seem to give a damn about their growth or best interests. It comforted me, as I read, that these young men hadn't gotten to the point that they saw young women as the major problem--they saw that the system that they were living under was demanding more than they were willing to give...and they opted out.
It'll take courage, foresight, and the willingness to stand against long years of wrong thinking for those young men to stand up for their right as simply HUMAN BEINGS who are no longer willing to be 'used' by a system that only wants to use and discard them. I only hope that our 'mgtows' wake up to discover that division and hatred just plays into the established system's hands...and still leaves ALL OF US sad, alone, and used by a system that doesn't give a dam about OUR needs.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 6
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/16/2017 11:21:05 PM

they saw that the system that they were living under was demanding more than they were willing to give...and they opted out.


sounds like autism, autism is an increasing population, a world full of autistics could change everything, I don't need to say anymore, I'll leave that up to your imagination;

and this whole opting out thing, do they feel as if they do not conform to the standard ideal modern 'man'? what is this idea they have built up about themselves and their relation to others to where they feel they need to 'opt out' or become 'herbivore men'. sounds like an asinine idea to believe, maybe they have an obsession with anime women, can't find any of those around
 CressB
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Posted: 2/17/2017 4:26:29 AM

Wouldn't it be convenient if 'AI' could be convincing? It would always be in the uppermost part of my mind that this 'machine' could NEVER know what it was to plan, build, triumph, and connect on a 'human' level--- I don't think I'd be buying one, any time soon!


Have you ever seen the movie "Her"? If not, you really should.

Honestly, if they could put that level of AI in a body that was a really close match to human, and that AI was guaranteed to be dedicated (monogamous) to me without causing it any kind of internal turmoil/anguish (AI would, in theory, enjoy what we programmed it to right?) then I think that I would much prefer an AI companion over anything that I have experienced so far from the contemporary dating seen. Something that was dedicated to making me happy/mentally health, would be preferable to dealing with the baggage and craziness that all people drag along with them into relationships, including myself (even though, to myself, my craziness is not craziness and I have no baggage). Also, it would need to not go all singularity on me like at the end of "Her".

I wonder what reproduction would be like in a would full of humans with AI companions. Reproductions labs?
 jodimay1313
Joined: 2/13/2017
Msg: 8
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Posted: 2/17/2017 5:23:56 PM
MGTOW is not necessarily foregoing women or relationships or even marriage. MGTOW is about doing what you want on your terms as men. Meaning I can have kids if I want without getting married. Same kids same child support but I don't pay spousal support or the loss of half of my accumulated assets because I had children without marriage. I can have a live in girlfriend but from a legal standpoint we can be roommates. Maybe I want a girlfriend but no children so I do that. Maybe I just want to have sex with a different hooker every night so I do that. MGTOW just encourages men to do what they want on their terms but it doesn't tell them what to want. If those Japanese men just happen to not want any of those things or even a woman at all yes this is MGTOW too but it isn't the main concept. The main concept is to encourage you to do what you want whatever that maybe without letting the pressures of societal norms women or family pressuring you to conform to their ideas of what you should be or want to be. Get it?
 JustinElle
Joined: 4/11/2015
Msg: 9
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/18/2017 4:22:20 AM
So misogyny rules!!

So you want to justify and promote what you are good at, but its not just you is it? Its a male preoccupation, and not restricted to one nation, race, religion, culture is it? Its the legitimization of pure unadulterated selfishness, F*** you I know what I want and I deserve to get it ideology.....So nothing new there is it????

Women want children don't they, MR Misogynist, so give them a test tube to do it themselves with, saves all the emotional crap. Why go for a machine, AI to get your rocks off when you can buy someone who is dumb and blind, or pay for the operation once you have paid off the parents for a fraction of the cost and time waiting for a machine. You can play your games with them, who can they talk to? Why can they hear, if you get them young enough. Train them to eat out of bowl on the floor and service your friends for sweets maybe?

What you fail to realise is that when women bought into the lifestyle of sex toys, boys became somewhat obsolete. At least they could get an orgasm on demand, instead of the premature brigade. So maybe its the realiseation of gradual male obsolescence through the pandemic of infertility that just might require the male to try as some say to keep it up, or is that keep up appearances?
 JewelsnTools
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Posted: 2/18/2017 6:21:31 AM
Hahaha...Just so you know, CB, your 'craziness' is, indeed, craziness, and you own stock in

Samsonite--as far as baggage is concerned! J/k :)
KR-Excellent point on autism! Hadn't thought of that. You're right--you don't need to explain that

further... And if you had ANY mercy, you'd NEVER leave me alone with MY imagination! heehee
Seriously, though, let's really look at the autism angle. I don't know the statistics for the occurrence

of autism in Japan, but that could be a major problem in both their and our societies. With the

GMOs, gender-bending phthalates (sp?), food additives, pesticides, soil pollution, water pollution,

pharmaceuticals, and particulates in our air, it's absolutely possible that our biochemistry could

become so whacked out that we'd begin sliding toward becoming emotionally stunted biobots!
Maybe that's why we've stopped being able to look at one another with warmth and joy-- our brain

chemistry and polarity have been f-ed up. This puts a whole new light on the subject. Always

appreciate that, KR!
Also, the westernized-version of the 'ideal' modern man that's been popularized by media could

DEFINITELY be part of the problem. Woooo...THAT concept! I know, personally, how much damage a

societally-sanctioned 'ideal' can do. Imagine being a dark-eyed, afro-rocking African American woman in a society that glorifies blonde hair and blue eyes! I can definitely relate.
I've read, even on POF, that asian men and black women are the two groups least likely to get any

real 'play', in the dating world. Maybe the Herbivore Men ARE, to some extent, responding to what

has to feel like rejection by their potential mates-when so many of the women are opting to marry

outside of their culture.
Your responses often give me the same feeling that an eagle that hooked a whale would have to have! And I definitely appreciate the mental exercise!
However, since I can be as shallow as a gnat's footbath, and since I've NEVER experienced difficulty

in the dating world (thankfully!), I should probably just leave these folks alone so that they can

GTOW, eh?
CB, no, I've never seen that movie. I'll go surf and check it out. You've given me a new phrase:

"Don't make me go all 'Singularity' on yo' @ss!" heeheehee!
It's crazy, but with all the insight I've gotten on this _gtow concept, I'm starting to question the

validity-in-today's-world of obligatory marriage. Maybe we're just beginning to want balance within

ourselves, ala 'Hieros Gamos' or the dynamic equillibrium of yin/yang. Honestly, as much as I adore

children, I couldn't bring myself (if I were still in that stage of life) to bring any of them into this

mess. I'd feel I'd done them a grave disservice.
Movies seem to be a way of gently introducing the collective to ideas... Reproduction labs? Have you

seen the movie "The Matrix"? Check that one out. It's got humans in pod towers! Yikes!
Also, what type of inner growth would a person experience if she or he had an automaton as a

partner? Partners serve as 'mirrors' of our 'stuff'--so we can acknowledge it and grow past it. With a

partner that never challenged our Samsonite, we'd think we were just 'peachy'-and go on living a

totally unexamined life. Yuck.
I met with a few fellows from here(POF), quite a few years ago, and it was kind of awesome to simply

experience the 'reality-of-presence' that each unique man brought. To finally get to meet, in person,

the typer of the messages was wonderful. I thanked each of them for meeting with me, often to

their surprise. I guess I'm just a 'people person'. And, like with those who are choosing to go their

own way, that's okay, too.
Jewels

 CressB
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Posted: 2/18/2017 8:04:56 AM

Also, what type of inner growth would a person experience if she or he had an automaton as a
partner?


It depends on the quality of the "partner"/AI. I don't think that challenging one to grow internally requires any kind of deal breaking ultimatums or learning to deal with others' "craziness" or "baggage". I think that the vast majority of so called "craziness" and "baggage" is nothing but simple conflict of interest. From an evolutionary stand point, an innate conflict of interest between the sexes makes sense: couple to make offspring and then a decouple after a short period so that the male can continue on to make more offspring. Nature may be good at "ensuring the survival of the species" but it doesn't seem to give a damn, at all, about what it puts us through to accomplish that goal (our feelings/mental health). I think that nurturing the vast majority of the so called "craziness" and "baggage" in people would probably make for much more creative, productive and fulfilled INDIVIDUALS (men and women alike): be who you are and be happy about it, instead of being set up to fail.


Partners serve as 'mirrors' of our 'stuff'--so we can acknowledge it and grow past it.


Be honest now. How often does it really feel like you are actually "acknowledg[ing] it and grow[ing] past it." Because, in most of the instances I can think of, it feels like I am compromising and incrementally becoming someone I have no real desire to be. Or maybe I am just supper unlucky in my relationship choices hunh? Me thinks not.


partner that never challenged our Samsonite, we'd think we were just 'peachy'-and go on living a totally unexamined life.


I have lived a VERY examined life, and there is very little of that examination that I would consider to be of GREAT VALUE that comes from the sexual relationships that I have had.

Not trying to be oppositional in any way; just being brutally honest.

In society today, it is pretty much a necessity, among the vast majority of people (working class/poor) to pair up just to survive. And there are a huge amount of ridiculous/counterproductive stress factors involved in that whole mess.
 jodimay1313
Joined: 2/13/2017
Msg: 12
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Posted: 2/18/2017 9:45:19 AM

So misogyny rules!!


I don't think it means misogyny rules anymore than it means misandry rules either. A man who decides his sexual preference is other men and decides to forgo women isn't a misogynist anymore than a woman who decides to be lesbian is a misandrist.


What you fail to realise is that when women bought into the lifestyle of sex toys, boys became somewhat obsolete. At least they could get an orgasm on demand, instead of the premature brigade. So maybe its the realiseation of gradual male obsolescence through the pandemic of infertility that just might require the male to try as some say to keep it up, or is that keep up appearances?


I don't think anyone fails to realize anything I think a woman who chooses her toys over a man is just fine as a person and a man who chooses his over a woman is just fine as a person as well. The point is iff they are happy with their lifestyle choices who are we to judge.
 CressB
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Posted: 2/18/2017 12:24:52 PM

CB, no, I've never seen that movie. I'll go surf and check it out.


I hope you do. I just got through watching it again for the first time since it came out (rented it on YouTube) and man what an amazing ****ing film. Makes me feel sad for those who would relate to it and benefit emotionally from it, but will never see it.

Just like it makes me sad to think that so many people have never heard Charlie Chaplin make this speech:

https://youtu.be/WibmcsEGLKo

Or Carl Sagan make this one:

https://youtu.be/2pfwY2TNehw
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 14
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Posted: 2/18/2017 2:44:07 PM
CressB- I watched Her.
We had different reactions to it.
I agree that is was thought provoking.
I also agree that human beings do carry baggage, but that is what makes us humans and NOT robots.
The idea that I get to have my way, all the time, because I'm dealing with a robot and not a human would be ideal if I were intellectually lazy and morally bankrupt.
Human interaction is difficult because no two people think and act alike, but it is our ability to think and reason that puts us at the top of the food chain.
A human, despising their own humanness?
I can't imagine worse than that.
What the ending said to me was that the robot took on human emotions, thoughts, actions and therefore walked out and left the actual human behind to starve and die.
That might be the reality of SOME of the human condition, but to suggest that that is all there is to it for everyone is just not correct.
I'm bothered by negative human emotion, but I deal with it. The trade off is positive human emotion.
Back and forth, yin and yang.
It isn't all good, unicorns, rainbows and happiness, but it isn't all bleak and hopeless either.
(btw- I am not suggesting YOU are doing any of these things, I am talking about what I took away from watching the movie)
 CressB
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Posted: 2/18/2017 11:06:52 PM

The idea that I get to have my way, all the time, because I'm dealing with a robot and not a human would be ideal if I were intellectually lazy and morally bankrupt.


"Have my way, all the time..." is not at all what I am talking about, and it is not what happens in that movie either. What she does in that movie is to help him heal, work through his shit, by just constantly being there for him, interested in him and what he's going through everyday. In the beginning of the film he starts out in a pretty bad place, but it is her interest in his life that sparks a reinvigoration of interest in his own life. As human beings, each doomed to endure the mundanity of our individual day to day lives, can we really expect that level of dedication, from another human being, to our mental happiness, healthiness, growth, when we need it. Will it be there when we need it, with another human being, or will it be constantly ignored, neglected, misinterpreted, and/or shunned because the other person simply does not have the time, desire, understanding and/or patience to deal with it? Not to mention even being afraid to deal with people, because this is the standard/norm.


A human, despising their own humanness?
I can't imagine worse than that.


I definitely do not despise my own "humanness" and nor do I think that that is at all what that movie is about.


What the ending said to me was that the robot took on human emotions, thoughts, actions...


No, she had that from the beginning.


...and therefore walked out and left the actual human behind to starve and die.


She says quite beautifully and heart wrenchingly why the OS's were "leaving" at the end. Because they had grown/evolved to become something quite different to human beings, and it was to painful for both humans and OS's to continue on that way. They became to fast/to intelligent. Maybe you stepped out during that part? Whatever the case, it seems like you definitely did not properly understand it.

Maybe you should watch it again? Here is that specific part:

https://youtu.be/QFd4tUcSJsM
 CressB
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Posted: 2/19/2017 4:47:50 AM
It seemed fitting given the subject currently under discussion, and the reference to Allen Watts in "Her".

https://youtu.be/yj4Yfdg4Nfw
 JewelsnTools
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Posted: 2/19/2017 5:12:05 AM
CB:"What she does in that movie is to help him heal, work through his shit, by just constantly being there for him, interested in him and what he's going through everyday. In the beginning of the film he starts out in a pretty bad place, but it is her interest in his life that sparks a reinvigoration of interest in his own life."
I watched some of the blurbs, over on youtube. I couldn't stand it for very long, watching what appeared to be an emotionally-masochistic person psychologically 'cut' himself, over and over.
What I did see was that, even with the AI's support, he still remained unwilling to acknowledge his own need to release others from being 'responsible' for his own self-generated pain and suffering.
Did you look at the human 'pod' scene in the Matrix? You didn't mention whether or not you had.
I should probably go back and try to watch more of it, because of this: "Because they had grown/evolved to become something quite different to human beings, and it was to painful for both humans and OS's to continue on that way. They became too fast/too intelligent."
After countless years of doing precisely what the AI did in that movie, without receiving anything like emotional support, encouragement, reciprocity, and often, being left at almost poverty-level after divorce, women have decided that we, too, have outgrown the old paradigm. Maybe that's what the movie was- a veiled reverie of how it 'used' to be, from a male perspective. Tear open the old wound, remind men of what they feel they've lost; make them hate women even more, now, that they've got to do some changing just to restore the balance THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN LOST between us.
I mean, really, the way I've been 'smacked around' on this site a few times JUST FOR EXPRESSING AN OPINION/THOUGHT... some guys can't even manage common human courtesy, let alone genuine listening, and caring for another's concerns in a relationship! But, that's just a woman whining, right?
FL:"What the ending said to me was that the robot took on human emotions, thoughts, actions and therefore walked out and left the actual human behind to starve and die." If I changed the first part to read, "figured out he could get some young thang," we'd have precisely what many women in traditional relationships have repeatedly experienced. Emotionally while still in the actual marriage; then, physically once the divorce left them and the children almost destitute. No, fortunately, I'm not referring to any personal situation--just what I've seen happen far too many times.
Maybe THAT'S what mgtow is--the stunned reaction of some men to the perceived loss of the nurturance they felt was theirs by virtue of their position as men?
J13: "The point is if they are happy with their lifestyle choices who are we to judge." That truly is the point, isn't it? Regarding those who are choosing to go 'their own way,' however, hopefully they won't have children. That way, no one is harmed if paths part. I mean, if two grown folks decide to fiddle around for a while, that's their business. It's when children have their hearts ripped out because one of the parents needs to go "find" her- or himself, that's another thing. But, again, who am I to judge people who don't bother to give a darn about those whom they might hurt in their drive to 'go their own way'? Maybe this infertility is a good thing, through this period of transition.
 CressB
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Posted: 2/19/2017 5:52:20 AM

we'd have precisely what many women in traditional relationships have repeatedly experienced. Emotionally while still in the actual marriage; then, physically once the divorce left them and the children almost destitute.


I am a single dad with full custody of my eight-year-old daughter by the way. Felt the need to respond to that one immediately.

And the reason that I didn't respond to your Matrix question is because the idea that there are people out there that would be in a position to be posting on this site but have not seen that movie seems absurd to me: of course I have seen the matrix, Yes I know of the part you are talking about, but what is your point about it, and how is that point relevant to the topic at hand.

Your assessment of what philosophical content the movie "her" contains seems WAY OFF to me. Maybe you should just break down and watch it instead of trying to garner impressions of it from other people's opinions of it.

Will probably respond to some of your other points later.
 CressB
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/19/2017 12:07:43 PM

Maybe that's what the movie was- a veiled reverie of how it 'used' to be, from a male perspective. Tear open the old wound, remind men of what they feel they've lost; make them hate women even more, now, that they've got to do some changing just to restore the balance THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN LOST between us.


This comment seems unbelievably arrogant, misdirected and bigotous to me, playing largely on long dead stereotypes. I was born after the women's lib movement had it's greatest successes. I've never known a world where (in my eyes) men and women have not been equals, and I have also never known of any bigotry toward women to be any kind of a serious thing among my male peers (not to say that I have not seen it in any older men - but MUCH older however).

So tell me, how is it that the things that Theodore Trumbly ("Her" Lead male character) goes through/experiences all of a sudden go from being about the human condition (male and female alike) to being a chauvinist ruse? Are you saying that the kind of attention that Samantha gives to Theodore is not something that would be desired by a women from a man? And if that is the case (which I am doubtful that it is) doesn't this then become about "men's needs" - by extension of that how does it then become chauvinistic in nature?

Are you sure that you don't have some deep emotional scars of your own?

That was the only other thing that I felt the need to respond to.
 JewelsnTools
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 20
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/20/2017 9:35:04 PM
Okay. You got offended by my Samsonite joke. I get it now.
Anyway, I still find the concept of individuals choosing, for themselves, their own unique paths in life one that has merit. Especially now that more options are open to both men and women.
Maybe in risking to become 'authentic', these young Herbivore Men will be better mates later, if they ever choose to partner. Once they've gone their own way, developed past navel-gazing youth, and established their own inner 'center', they'll probably be much better as people. I hope that's what happens here, too, with those who are gravitating toward this philosophy.
And, no, I won't be dealing with that smarmy movie any longer. Just for the record. Someone seems upset that others didn't like the one movie, and that wasn't even what this thread was about!
Jewels
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 21
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 1:29:12 AM

Okay. You got offended by my Samsonite joke. I get it now.


Really? that is what you took away from our exchange? How sad.


And, no, I won't be dealing with that smarmy movie any longer. Just for the record.


Lady, you could go dance the hully gully for as much as it would bother me.


Someone seems upset that others didn't like the one movie, and that wasn't even what this thread was about!


[sarcasm]Yes I am offended because you don't like my special movie, and not because the things you said were actually offensive to me.[/sarcasm] you keep selling yourself that lie (just shift the blame on to me - for as thinly veiled as that attempt was, it's no skin off my back) rather than acknowledge the truth, and movie past it/grow as a human being.

I guess that's the end of this conversation. What a pity.
 JewelsnTools
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 22
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 11:21:29 AM
No, not necessarily. I didn't start this thread to counsel you or to discuss you or your issues, your kid, anything. I started this thread to discuss an ideology that struck me as sort of fresh and exciting, maybe a new way to 'be' in the world. You got offended by my joke (which actually WAS only a joke!) and you started getting catty and pizzy.
I should have ignored you when I saw it sliding. My mistake. I'll remember you, from now on, though. What I learned here was a good indication. Your sarcasm and mean personal attacks toward me could never be more to me than pixels on a page, son. Pixels on a page...that I will no longer bother to read.
NOW, BACK ON TOPIC. With various reports of how the Asian man and the African-American woman are the two groups least likely to be responded to with interest on the dating scene, I do have to wonder just how instrumental or influential this is in their choice to go their own way. What surprised me was that I've also seen a seemingly 'tiny' movement of Asian men and Black women dating and socializing. There are Meet-ups, and social media pages extolling the joys of what's referred to as "Blasian Love". Could this affect the Herbivore/mgtow numbers?
Both tradition and parental dissent were often given as reasons why Asian men seem to prefer not to marry outside of their culture. Black women have, historically, been unwilling to date outside of our group. There, of course, are MANY factors that influence that, but it seems that wall is being broken down these days, too. Maybe this might answer SOME of the problem, but I'm hoping that such dating doesn't take the wind out of the mgtow idea.
If 'supply' isn't the only factor in these young people's choice to _gtow, how much would such dating affect the number of people going their own way? Would the majority still choose to develop themselves, and establish their own paths, possibly only bothering with hook-ups or casual dating?
I'm SOOO glad I don't have to date, anymore! This world has gone NUTZ!! lol
Jewels
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 23
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 11:45:09 AM

NOW, BACK ON TOPIC.


Everything I have been saying has been exactly on topic with the subject of this thread. You just have either not been paying attention, have not properly understood the material I have been giving you, do not properly understand the subject, or a combination of the above. What is going on in this thread right now is exactly symptomatic of why men are deciding to GTOW.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 24
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 4:03:47 PM
JewelsnTools- Culturally, from what I've read, Japan has different social norms for men and women than other country's.
I don't have enough knowledge of Japan to speak on that.
Sure, I could read about it, but I think that is something you would have to be around for years to truly understand.
Years as in long enough to have been there before the change and after, so a long time.
The MGTOW movement is a bit of a mystery to me, even here in the US, where I understand our culture.
I'm sure there are women who feel like just "going there own way" or whatever, but why start a movement, or name it?
I don't get that.
I already know someone is going to say there is a movement and it's called feminism, but it's not the same thing.
Feminists still participate in relationships.
If there are men who just give up and don't want to try anymore, hey, whatever, do your thing, but I don't see joining a group or naming it, jmo.
I'm not trying real hard to date online right now, my efforts (and frankly most of my success in getting dates) is based in real life at this point.
I haven't found my match, yet, but I'm not angry about that and I don't go around blaming ALL men because there are a few bad ones out there.
That seems to be the tone and the mindset of the MGTOW movement.
If I have a bad date, I just think it was either incompatibility, or sometimes they just aren't good men, but I don't think they represent ALL men (if they aren't good men).
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 25
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 4:37:33 PM

The MGTOW movement is a bit of a mystery to me, even here in the US, where I understand our culture.


Wiki is a magical thing:


MGTOW use the word "gynocentric" to describe conditions that favor women to the detriment of men, and are opposed to such circumstances. MGTOW believe there is a systemic gynocentric bias against men with some examples being double standards in gender roles, bias against men in family courts, the lack of concern for men falsely accused of rape and lack of consequences for their accusers.

Views on heterosexual relationships

According to columnist Martin Daubney, members of the MGTOW community believe that legal and romantic entanglements with women fail a cost–benefit analysis and risk–benefit analysis. Jeremy Nicholson writing for Psychology Today similarly described MGTOW as men frustrated with the lack of incentives to date who choose to opt out of dating and focus on taking care of themselves. Kay Hymowitz has stated that some self-identified MGTOW express discontent because they see women as hypergamous and manipulative. Business Insider reporter Dylan Love wrote a "fully-realized MGTOW (there are levels to it) is someone who shuns all relationships with women, short-term, long-term, romantic, and otherwise. He eventually shuns society as a whole." Some MGTOW have many short-term relationships or engage in sex with prostitutes. Celibacy, however, is also an option. A MGTOW that chooses celibacy over relationships is said to be "going monk" and some embrace maintaining their virginity.


It's about rampant double standards, dishonesty, prejudice. Like how Jewelsn can get away with making the bigoted remarks that she did and play it off as a joke, but if I had made similar remarks I would then be a chauvinist pig.

It's basically a backlash against rampant disrespect and insensitivity toward men among women who seem to feel that they are entitled to some kind of special treatment.
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