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Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?      Home login  
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 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 1
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?Page 1 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
Just when you thought you had a grasp on reality after all these years along comes Bitcoin. Billy has been banging on a bout it for ages now, I hope he has made a lot of money from it.

Someone can probably point out that Deutsche Banks owns 10 times the total worlds output in derivatives which is bonkers in itself but Bitcoin has to top even the tulip mania surely?

The market in Bitcoins is some 160 billion (yesterdays figures). You can't actually buy very much with your bitcoins as very few people accept them. You'd have to be a brave person to hand over goods in exchange for Bitcoins. Yes, they could go stupidly higher but they could also crash tomorrow. paper money, fiat economies, call them what you will have nothing behind thm except the promise from governments to honour the promise. But bitcoin has even less, it's just a few slightly excited electrons somewhere in the ether.

It is fascinating to watch but a bt like the Emperor's new clothes surely. According to one website Bitcoin is now trading at $11,430 - oops wtore that a minute ago and it is now $11,330. Even so a gain overnight of $1170 or around 10%.
 rekirked
Joined: 11/7/2017
Msg: 2
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 3:59:46 AM
This is certainly a case of when it will crash not if. The interesting thing to see in the aftermath will be who got caught out being greedy or irresponsible, as was the case with the Icelandic banks and several UK councils.
 10ky
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 3
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 5:08:32 AM
Bond will have the orgasm of a lifetime as soon as he stumbles on this thread.
 RoxyMoronic
Joined: 6/7/2016
Msg: 4
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 5:56:54 AM
I’ve really no clue what it is all about.
And unless I get a short summary I’ll remain clueless.
I’ve plenty of junk emails about it.
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 5
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 6:39:26 AM
Well you don't need to buy Bitcoins, you can mine them which means buying a dedicated processor which will cost you around 2 grand, joining a mining co-operative and away you go. There's a limited supply of bitcoins and each one is only available by solving algorithms supplied by Bitcoin (mining). The maximum number of coins that can be mined is 21 million.

Just yesterday they were around $10,000 and today pushing $12,000. The Deputy Governor of the Bank of England says there isn't enough money invested in Bitcoins to worry about a worldwide crash. Steel hats on!
 10ky
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 6
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 7:08:58 AM
^^
Well, that's prolly 1/10th of the story.

As it happened, there was some jap dude and he invented a p2p payment system. P2p? Remember emule or is it just me? I sure am getting fkn ole these days aye? Awful. Any the ways, P2p = peer-to-peer. So, all modern payment systems involve a central authority - typ. your bank. If you want to pay chapo, you raise a request with you bank and you bank then issues the payment upon certain conditions (ex. if you have enough credit, if the transaction is legal etc). This is all great. The central authority will keep track of your and chapo's balances ensuring that the math checks out all the time so that no "money is created accidentally/erroneously" and shite like that.

The problem is that the bank (the central authority ) can decide to, for instance, block the transaction for whatever reason. What if the bank goes bust for instance? What then? Your "money" (or number or whatever it is you have at the bank) may not be available until insurance payouts and that might not cover your entire capital etc. The govt for instance can issue directive to the banks to limit transactions and even though it is your "money", you cannae do nothing about that!!! Inflation caused by govt printing more fiat is another issue. Your capital depreciates all of a sudden. All this essentially means that having an almighty central authority like a bank is not awesome. p2p payment systems like bitcoin were invented for that reason. In fact, there is no central authority. Transactions and account balance checks are performed by the parties involved in the transaction themselves (I've simplified there). The central authority is distributed amongst "all" users of the payment system, so, no entity can come in and block your transaction. You're immune to inflation cause by govts and political interference of the sort. (ps: you're still susceptible to market fluctuations)

Bitcoin is the token used on these p2p payment systems. Bitcoin has value because:
1. There's a limit supply of it where the limit is fictitiously imposed as Chapo said
2. There is demand for it. Basically, people can see the value of such p2p payment systems and to use them, you need bitcoin, hence, bitcoin is desirable which implies that it has value.
3. People are willing to put in money in such projects/work (mine) bitcoin.

... and there you have it. Bitcoin and p2p payment systems are a godsend for criminals I says. Pablo Escobar would have loved something like this.

PS: There's a bunch of cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin is prolly the "dollar" of them all. It apparently was the first one around as well. Mah. What a load of rubbish.

-bond
Correct me.
 heavenlivesnear
Joined: 8/29/2016
Msg: 7
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 8:39:02 AM
i listened to something on radio 2 earlier on....

some poor bloke purchased lots... cant remember how many but it translates into lots of money.... anyway, he threw his hard drive away for some reason, and effectively threw away his bitcoins as well...

another chap spends his time trying to guess the missing digits of his authentication code so he can get to his coins.

its not available to the average human.... the softwear costs thousands just to get going...
 duracell_bunny_one
Joined: 1/21/2015
Msg: 8
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 11:17:10 AM
I wonder if I could con 'customers' into purchasing
non-existent clothing?
Same game, similar rules ('when you move you lose')

 Jacknher
Joined: 3/16/2017
Msg: 9
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it?
Posted: 11/29/2017 11:34:47 AM
I have an ex-inlaw who has been pushing the bitcoins on FB big time for months now. But she seems to be in some sort of pyramid scheme. Every time someone enquires about one of her many bitcoin posts she replies with "inbox me darl"

I might have been tempted months ago if it hadn't been for not knowing how to get into it without doing the pyramid thing.
 billybonds
Joined: 8/8/2014
Msg: 10
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 11/29/2017 4:31:03 PM
Thank you ky, I think, and you chap of course, I saw this thread on the way home this afternoon and have been too weighed down with life's fripperies until now to post. My fellow forumites I am in awe of bitcoin's price action. My eyes widened significantly when I saw the 11k figure in chap's post. Although it's back down to 10 as I address you. The price action this year in Bitcoin would have made me a multimillionaire... if it had happened to gold. I'm not jealous , absolutely not . I salute the bicoiners and think
they all deserve a KBE.

I'm not one of these people that say ooh we must get more young people interested in politics or if you don't vote you can't complain. Or I'm voting for Jeremy or Nicola because the Tories are the fount of all evil . Or people died so you can vote. No. Now listen very carefully to me, fuck off.

The dollar, is government fiat debt "money" . It's worthless. You put government in charge of the desert there would eventually be no sand. The job of government is theft. I figure you don't believe this but I do. One day perhaps soon everyone will see this is so. Either that or mortgage rates will climb to 30% in the next few years. If there is a professor of economics or a PHD economist out there who disagrees with this come and try to tell me different.

Bitcoin is private sector money. There are theories that it's government money but please don't depress me, let us ignore the possibility. There are also opinions that government under the guise of regulation will appropriate it in the future but for now the near nine year old coin is fighting the good fight for the world's poor. They do
say if you want to change the world write software code. Let's hope they succeed and governments fail to destroy it or co-opt it.

Gold is both government and private money. Demonetised by the international financial elite in the early seventies and mocked by the elites as a barbarous relic , it stills sits on many central bank balance sheets as reserves. In fact official government gold is growing. Particularly in China and Russia. Governments will try to confiscate it.

Bicoin creator was satoshi nakamoto probably an alias for at lest five creators.
Bitcoin went live on January 3rd 2009
Bitcoin's first transaction was a pizza for 30 Bitcoin. About $300,000 pounds today..
Coins are created by solving complex equations . Obviously this "mining " is increasingly lucrative because the miner is rewarded with new Bitcoin..
The mining and securing the blockchain uses so much energy!! equivalent to an entire year's worth in Ireland!! it's astonishing.
You can download your Bitcoin on to a bit of paper (code) for safe storage. Even though wallets and Bitcoin exchanges have been hacked the blockchain
or distributative ledger has never.

The blockchain is thousands of computers joined together not run by one. It is not a hierarchy.
Bitcoin will soon get a derivatives market. Not clear if this like the gold one will kill the price or if it will fuel it for a while. Governments could shut down the internet but for a 100 dollars you can download the blockchain on to yor phone.
Soft forks are software added to the Bitcoin.

Hard forks are new coins off the existing Bitcoin , hard forks include Bitcoin cash , Bitcoin gold , These are not compatible with the old Bitcoin.
 Squareslice
Joined: 10/17/2016
Msg: 11
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 11/29/2017 6:34:00 PM
Thank you for that brief response, Billy. Now off to relocate my jaw.


Bitcoin was an invention outwith banks and governments. The Japanese dude that started it made sure he had the bulk of any available. You could "mine" for bitcoins, but it meant opening up your PC to crackers and hackers.

When it crashes, banks will be rubbing their sweaty mitts.
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 12
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 11/30/2017 2:33:58 AM
Well some people lost a lot of money over the last 24 hours. Up from over $10,000 yesterday morning to almost $12,000 by last night and now $9,900.
 billybonds
Joined: 8/8/2014
Msg: 13
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 11/30/2017 2:36:19 PM
$10,026. now....went from a 11 to 8,500 in 24 hours I think.. Every self respecting bull market needs a pull back in price and hopefully we can now have this for the next month , down, up, sideways, down. Then another leg way up to $25,000 dollars by Easter. Yes it's a mad speculative bubble but at its heart it is about a sound money revolution.

Gold has been tumbling in the last two days. The Dow is at a new all time high. The fed intends to raise its base rate in a couple of weeks, we shall see.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 14
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/1/2017 2:35:48 AM
Mind the wee discussions about income tax we had? Well I've just been reading this income and expenditure thingy. Can any of yous financial whiz kids add anything to this?........

"Where does the UK government get its money, and what does it spend it all on?

The chancellor’s second budget of the year sets out where Philip Hammond expects the state to get money from in 2018, and how he expects it to be spent. Phillip Inman explains

Revenues in
£769bn

The national debt has ballooned to £1.6tn, equivalent to 79.6% of GDP, and is forecast to keep rising for 2018. This vast sum is offset by wealth, largely in bricks and mortar, of more than £8tn. The shortfall in income versus expenditure is expected to persist until the mid-2020s, when the government expects to balance the books.

Business rates £30bn

This tax on ​​premises has become increasingly controversial as high street firms face far larger bills than online traders working out of vast warehouses in cheaper areas. A recently rebalanced system that favours the north and west over London and the south-east could need ​​tinkering to prevent a backbench rebellion among Tory MPs in the ​home counties​.

Income tax £185bn

The biggest element of tax receipts, income tax was expected to benefit from a rise in employment. But successive rises in the personal allowance threshold has costbillions of pounds in lost revenue.

National insurance £134bn

The government has promised to not raise NI for PAYE employees. Following a rise in employees to 32m, NIC receipts have risen strongly. But employers’ reluctance in recent months to convert part-time jobs into full-time posts could limit growth.

Excise duties £49bn

Duties on whisky and cigarettes have risen recently. Fuel duty has been held flat for seven years, costing the exchequer more than £20bn since 2010 in lost inflation-linked rises.

Corporation tax £55bn

Only worth about 9% of total receipts, the rate of corporation tax has been cut from 28% in 2010 to 19% this year. The government has signalled a cut to 17% by 2020-21. This may not happen until nearer the deadline.

VAT £145bn

The third biggest tax in terms of receipts, VAT was projected to trail GDP growth over the next few years after cuts in state spending on VAT-liable goods and services combined with a shift in consumer spending by hard-pressed households from luxuries (VAT-liable) to food (VAT-exempt). But high inflation this year and in 2018 is set to act in the opposite way, increasing prices – and therefore the VAT payable.

Council tax £34bn

Any talk of reforming the only annual tax on property appears to be on the back burner despite a review of property values being 20 years overdue. Expensive homes now pay little more than those with average values, making it a distinctly regressive tax.

Other taxes £86bn

Expectations of receipts from stamp duty land tax – the main tax on homebuying – were further reduced by a consession to scrap it for first-time buyers on homes under £300k. Meanwhile stamp duty on share-trading remains flat. A switch to an electronic vehicle excise duty (car tax) system has cost millions after a rise in non-payment.

Other non-tax £51bn

Income from state-owned businesses are set to remain steady. But a one-off sale of shares in RBS, when it comes, will claw back some of the billions of pounds lost rescuing financial institutions in the 2008 crash.

Expenditure
£809bn
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/1/2017 2:39:08 AM
Expenditure out
£809bn

Social protection £252bn

The welfare bill is one of the chief targets for reductions this year after wide-ranging cuts in the last five years. Millions of families have lost access to tax credits, housing benefit and disability benefits. A freeze on payments from last year until the end of the decade and other restrictions is expected to save £13bn.

Personal social services £32bn

A cinderella area of spending, it covers home helps to social work. An ageing population has put extra strain on budgets, but after suffering huge cuts under the coalition government, spending has begun to rise.

Health £155bn

A backstairs privatisation of the health service has eaten into hospital and GP budgets, which will make a small, below inflation rise in spending this year difficult to manage. As an emergency measure, the chancellor announced an additional £2.8bn spending on the NHS in England.

Transport £35bn

The main winner from a new national investment fund to promote new rail lines and widen major roads. But drastic train fare rises are expected, as the government shifts the funding burden from the taxpayer to the passenger.

Education £102bn

A capital budget of £7.2bn in 2010-11 that halved to £3.3bn in 2013-14, has only been partially restored. Around £6bn will be made available after April 2018 to create new school places and to carry out repair and maintenance work at schools before slipping back in subsequent years. Schools are now facing day-to-day spending cuts after years of being protected from the worst of austerity.

Defence £49bn

According to the latest data (2017), the UK is the seventh-highest spender (in cash terms) on defence worldwide (behind the US, China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, India and France). After six years of real terms cuts from 2010, the departmental budget enjoyed an inflation-busting rise in 2016 and will be £36bn in 2017-18 before rising to £38.6bn in 2019-20. Capital spending of £178bn for 2016 to 2026 is also earmarked to fund projects such as the F-35 fighter and Dreadnought nuclear submarines, although the National Audit Office has warned savings must be made to stay within budget.

Industry, agriculture and employment £23bn

The Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has completed a four-year, 15% reduction in spending, Last year it began a further cuts of 17% up to 2020-21. With the science budget protected, business support grants and university spending are due for further cuts.

Housing and environment £31bn

House building has recovered over the last couple of years from 150,000 units in 2015 to nearer 220,000 in the last year. The chancellor is being urged to fund further building to reach 300,000 homes a year. The chancellor has already put in place a £2.3bn housing infrastructure fund – to create 100,000 new homes – and set aside £1.4bn for areas in high need.

Public order £35bn

The Home Office and Ministry of Justice have implemented some of the steepest cuts in Whitehall. Redundancies in the police force combined with privatisations are key areas for savings. The Home Office budget is largely frozen until 2020.

Other: including culture, sport and international development £53bn

Attacks from backbench Tory MPs on overseas aid spending has forced the department to review its methods. While overall expenditure remains tied to the internationally agreed target of 0.7% of GDP, much of the aid is allied to spending on UK equipment or supporting British firms abroad.

Debt interest £41bn

The cost of financing persistent overspending is set to rise as a proportion of GDP until 2018-19, before it falls again. The Office for Budget Responsibility, the Treasury’s independent forecaster, expects the global trend for low interest rates to keep debt payments low.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2017/nov/22/where-does-the-uk-government-get-its-money-and-what-does-it-spend-it-all-on

£41 BILLION in interest payments?
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 16
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/1/2017 3:29:26 AM
Wrong thread Vlad - tssk tssk. We are all well behaved now.

The problem with the blunt stats are that they hide so much. You're quite right to highlight the interest payments, if we didn't have those then the budget would be in surplus.

You also need to strip out welfare into its components as I think the largest part of that is pensions not lazy scroungers on the dole 9as the tories would have you believe).

Also need to look at the money wasted on housing benefit. I believe it is 20 billion a year or more. If we'd put that amount of money into building social housing for the last 40 years we wouldn't have the housing problem we do now.

You also need to look towards the people at the bottom. It's OK to do budgets in the same way as household budgets but any economist I've listened to says it's bollocks. For example, those people at the bottom. If you give them more money they will spend it in the local economy. if you give tax cuts to the rich they will buy more Mercedes and go on foreign holidays.

My biggest gripe is reserved for that gross idiot Gordon Brown who ordered 2 aircraft carriers to provide work in Scotland. Only the Yanks have more than one fleet aircraft carrier (the Italians have a couple of rinky dinky ones if you want to argue numbers). Apparently someone suggested we could share them with the French which is a great idea except the French have not ordered F35 jump jets. There is only one fixed wing aircraft that will be able to operate from these carriers and that is the F35B which looks to be a bit drossy. Each carrier needs an absolute minimum of 700 sailors out of a total complement of 30,000 people in the Royal Navy. That's before you add the people to man and service the aircraft which will bring it up to 1600. So that means one in every 19 or so people in the Navy will man these ships assuming we only have one in service at a time. But then you need to add in the support. These things are huge and complete sitting ducks without support. American carrier groups normally set sail with 5 fighting warships for air, surface and anti submarine defences. Can we do that? Well have six guided missile destroyers and 13 frigates in total, some of which will be being refitted, in training, on missions etc. So the answer is yes but we won't be able to do much else at the same time.
 rekirked
Joined: 11/7/2017
Msg: 17
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/1/2017 3:37:47 AM
Vlad, we're insolvent. Every time they borrow more they always counter by saying things are "forecast to improve" or "borrowing is expected to come down" yada yada yada. They're just kicking the can down the road, We'll never pay it off. There's not enough growth or inflation to even start chipping away at it.
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 18
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/1/2017 3:47:44 AM
I'm not sure that is true Kirk as most of the money we owe to ourselves.

BTW for those 19 fighting ships we have 260 officers with the rank of Captain or above (Commodores, Admirals etc)

 rekirked
Joined: 11/7/2017
Msg: 19
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/1/2017 4:16:38 AM
That's true chap most of it is owed to UK pension funds and insurance companies which means indirectly the exchequer is propping up private pensions with revenues but I digress, I still say we're insolvent.

http://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/harry-cooper/budget-2013-george-osborne-bankrupt_b_2930503.html
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 20
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Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/2/2017 3:48:14 AM
Not as bad as the Yanks. The passed 20 trillion of debt this year and the new tax laws are going to ad another 1.5 trillion.

The zeros are getting confusing now. I believe a trillion is one thousand billion. So looks something like 20,000,000,000,000 dollars.

The scary bit though is they owe about a trillion each to China and Japan.

Does it matter?
 duracell_bunny_one
Joined: 1/21/2015
Msg: 21
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/2/2017 4:19:40 AM
^ ^ ^ Only if 'someone' wants 'it' repaid-
otherwise is just figures on a print-out.

 billybonds
Joined: 8/8/2014
Msg: 22
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/2/2017 8:45:42 AM
Kirk's absolutely correct we are insolvent. We have debts that we will never ever pay. The printing press obscures and stalls this coming bankruptcy only for now. By we, I mean the economic global system run by the Americans through the petrodollar system, IMF , SWIFT, CIA, client states and a vast military. The u.s. national debt doubled under Bush from five trillion to ten in eight years , the same under Obama from ten to twenty trillion again over eight years and given a fair wind it will be $ 40 trillion at the end of Trumps. Presuming he isn't impeached or assassinated and gets a second term.

Now that near $21 trillion that can never be paid back is not all the debt America labours under for there is personal , financial and corporate debt. There is also off balance sheet debt that is probably approaching 100 trillion dollars. Nb..people Or nations or corporations who are paying back debt are not spending.

Global total debt is $230 trillion. Total global unfunded liabilities are $250 trillion dollars. Then there are derivatives which are a form of leverage put at $1.5 quadrillion dollars . These things are fine until they are not. In 2008 mortgage backed securities caused the melt down that in the end was saved only by the printing press.


The printing press 2008-2018...central bank balance sheets sit at over $20 billion dollars now. We have in Switzerland negative bond rates out to 15 years. . Germany and japan out to 15 years. Sweden and the Netherlands out to nine. France ,8. Spain 3 Italy 2. The uk and the u.s. bonds are all in positive territory. If you ignore the faked inflation figures then real rates are negative too. If you don't ignore the faked inflation figures then the reason that private pensions and savings are going to get wiped out becomes clear. There is no return. The return of any of your money is the question.


You see the bust or insolvency of 2008 is getting harder to hide. Because it didn't get resolved the debt is eating away at what we produce. ...This is not an abstract question.

In 2008 policymakers decided to ignore reality and the painful readjustment of recession. For kicking the can down the road. Hoping something would turn up it hasn't.

Bitcoin back up to $11,000 last time I looked. The dollar is going away not bitcoin.
 billybonds
Joined: 8/8/2014
Msg: 23
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/2/2017 2:31:51 PM
My post above doesn't make sense ...just testing if any one was awake..what I meant to say was Switzerland's bonds were negative out to thirty years ..That is you give a hundred pounds and in thirty years ..we may give you some of it back. Also say we in the uk have 3% inflation (it's more likely 7%) and a ten year gilt at 1.5% that's a negative return of minus 1.5% or perhaps (minus 5.5% given government's penchant to finesse inflation figures)


Also a few words on how our global currency works.. Governments issue a bond through some primary dealers (banks) who get a cut and a central bank (a banking cartel) puts the money on to its balance sheet as a...chuckles...asset. Then the central bank credits the government with some currency out of nowhere. And the government does some spending . This er "money " gets deposited in banks which gets , under fractional reserve lending rules , to lend out ten times that amount. 95% of our total currency is made in the banking system under fractional reserve lending.

You may have noticed there that all our "money" is borrowed into existence. So where does the interest on it comes from???..that's correct we then have to borrow the interest payments into existence. The upshot is that the currency system has to go deeper and deeper into debt each year to manage the debt. I do think you should ponder the wisdom of that for awhile.

$11,130 at the moment ...I think $25,00 by Easter... Why would anyone give away 25,000 dollars for a cryptocoin outside government regulation. What can governments do to thwart it ?... Maybe they can get their TV talking heads and print lackeys to blame brexit ..
 billybonds
Joined: 8/8/2014
Msg: 24
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/3/2017 2:39:43 PM
Jesus bonds is the only guy or girl posting....volume up.. a bit
of selling 11k...at moment.

Japan has legalised bitcoin weird....
Yeah... didn't make myself clear..if a government
were to shut the Internet down then a hundred
dollar satellite could download the blockchain
to your mobile.....
Each bitcoin currently being mined costs $1,200
dollars in energy. ..this activity maintains the integrity
of the blockchain. ..I wonder when all 21 million bitcoins
have been mined how is the blockchain to be supported? ?


This is a sound money revolution ...why ...
because young people can't buy a house
or a pension. ...

Edit to middle post 25k not 25 pounds thanks.
 billybonds
Joined: 8/8/2014
Msg: 25
Bitcoin - just how bonkers is it
Posted: 12/3/2017 10:01:53 PM
$11, 538....sell Tesla....


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