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 justinelle
Joined: 8/28/2017
Msg: 1
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Questioning the media messagePage 1 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
Why did the attempted murderer though poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter NOT make it look like suicide? If the intention is simply to kill, then you would kill, in any way you like, and then make sure no one ever found the body.

When the point is to send a message, again, you would make it appear as though it was an accident, suicide or accidental overdose or something like that. The message would still be sent, because the targeted audience would still understand what had happened in reality. It would be done in a way that the instingator could never be completly identified , in a legal sense.

Why was an exotic nerve agent used? —The aim might be to remind everyone of the Litvinenko murder, which people believe was carried out by the Russian State. That is the obvious connection that everyone is making.

So why would Russia do it like that? Why would they do something that would instantly bring to mind this previous murder that had been pinned on them?

What sort of people might have a motive for killing him?

He betrayed a lot of people, and not just governments, government agents or intelligence agencies, but potentially private criminal organizations. Spying is all about gathering information for later exploitation by the state.

Something that has been MISSED by the mass media lynch mob frenzy to appoint the blame, is what lies just ten miles down the road. PORTON DOWN. Porton Down is the primary lab for developing biological and chemical weapons for the Ministry of Defence. Might there be a connection with this establishment? With a couple of thousand people employed there, could someone be bribed, blackmailed or induces to sell or supply an untraceably small amount of a chemical compound?

Nerve gases, or nerve agents, are mostly odourless compounds belonging to the organophosphate family which despite being highly toxic, are stable, and easily dispersed. They are absorbed through the skin or through the respiratory tract. They are also fairly easy to make and the raw materials required for their manufacture are inexpensive and readily available. So anyone with a basic laboratory can produce them, a concern for authorities as they are an easily available weapon for terrorist groups.

Exposure to nerve agents can be detected in both urine and blood through laboratory testing. Breathing a lethal dose or getting a lethal dose on the skin, even at very low concentrations, can KILL in one to ten minutes. Not hours and now days as has been reported regarding the fortunate state of Sergei Skripal and his daughter thought the media.

So maybe one should start to question the media narrative, as certain facts do not correspond with events or facts. The most volatile NERVE Agents evaporate at about the same rate as water, which was not the case for the policeman that also became contaminated, as the contaminant apparently lingered for a significant time prior to his intervention.
 rekirked
Joined: 11/7/2017
Msg: 2
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/10/2018 10:43:58 AM
I’ve got one for you, why has no one pointed a finger at Zizzi’s? Dodgy kind prawn tagliatelle?

In all seriousness who cares, we’ve killed loads of theirs and they’ve killed loads of ours, nothing changes. Do you honestly think we’ve never murdered people in Russia?
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 3
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/10/2018 11:24:26 AM
I don't know "anyone with a basic laboratory".
But I was under the impression that it was almost impossible for people to knock this stuff up easily.
-Appart from anything else, if it's that toxic, the chances of survival, having successfully produced some would be minimal.

But yes, while Porton Down might have produced some, nicking a little bit would also be difficult, I would imagine.
It's all a question of access.
Spies might have access, maybe it's in their "basic spy starter kit", when they graduate?

The thing about spies like this, and the Litvinenko case, is that it's also possible (IMO) that they "faked" their own "murder" (/suicide?), to discredit their "enemies", we all know what such fanatics are capable of.

So I'll wait and see what emerges.
At the moment, the only "message" of Russia's assumed "guilt" seems to be coming from HMG.
Notably Boris, - our "top diplomat".
-He'd say anything which he thought might draw a "cheer", from almost any section of society.
-And xenophobia, like beards, is very fashionable at the moment.
(I have neither, I'm too old for fashions. - well, the truth is: I can't be bothered any more)

As Kirk said, I also seem to remember Britain "executing some "IRA "suspects" in Spain, or Gibraltar, or somewhere.
We do the same still, with "drones" in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, -no trials beforehand.

It's easy to convince the public that executions and assassinations of individuals, by the state, in foreign countries, is "in the interests of national security", and all that old guff.
People don't give a shit about other people being killed, as long as it's not them, or their family or friends.

Seems like this man chose a risk-laden profession, but I don't know all the details, and I doubt that I ever will.
It's like when people volunteer to become "soldiers", but then complain about the "ptsd" they got from looking at nasty stuff.
(I'm afraid I really haven't got much sympathy for them.)
If you're a spy, then you can't really complain about being "spied" upon, it's surely an "occupational hazard"?

We'll just have to wait and see what we're told, or not told.
As usual.
Jmo.
 duracell_bunny_one
Joined: 1/21/2015
Msg: 4
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/10/2018 12:17:39 PM
We are being treated to a veritable storm of non-information.
We know how many (allegedly) personell are involved,
how many non-witnesses there are,
how many stupid tents have been chucked up......
this is HMG in it's finest Mushroom Mode (loads of manure-no facts).
At the end of all these (expensive) hysterics, we shall have almost
no answers & no way of 'dealing with' anyone responsible.
A British spy has got nobbled by 'someone' he upset
(we'll ignore the reports that he was a more than casual visitor
to that palace of freedom, the Russian Embassy)
his daughter & a policeman appear, at the moment, to be
collataral damage.
That's it really.........
It's not that interesting unless you had a table booked at Zizis,
or if you wanted to visit mum at the cemetery tomorrow.

 Squareslice
Joined: 10/17/2016
Msg: 5
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/10/2018 2:25:01 PM
If ye were that "old fashioned" Jo, you would not just have a beard, but a waxed handle bar moustache n ride a boneshaker.

As for the crap we are fed, I bet ye any money a few new laws were slipped in under the umbrella of hysteria,.... happens every time.
 justinelle
Joined: 8/28/2017
Msg: 6
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/10/2018 3:25:34 PM
Obviously reading all my points was far too much for click baiters, or those with short attention spsns.

The first part was all about questioning the motives, which one can speculate on forever, But I noticed holes in the lynch mob’s narrative, as its too simplistic and patronising. Why because of a lack of evidence, and just opinions.

But after the first bit cam the properties of Nerve Agents. Here there is evidence and the most interesting is the policeman, who was affected.

Firstly was the time for the Agent to have an effect, which gives on an idea of what happened to the original victims, who were still alive.

This makes the Nerve Agent a very interesting subject, as it does not quite add up.

Nerve destroying compounds belonging to the organophosphate family which despite being highly toxic, are stable, and easily dispersed.

They are absorbed through the skin or through the respiratory tract.

Exposure to nerve agents can be detected in both urine and blood through laboratory testing, so in PORTON DOWN that is a pretty straightforward process, as they have equipment that can detect the molecular SIGNITURES that make up compounds. Its no longer someone with test tubes plan=ying with different chemicals to break down a specific compound.

But let us return to the desired effect of such poisons……..Breathing a lethal dose or getting a lethal dose on the skin, even at very low concentrations, can KILL in ONE to Ten Minutes.

This brings into question why one should dispense something that does not kill the victim fast in 1 to 10 minutes.

Then there was the policeman and the daughter, who re also were not dead in 10 minutes, but the policeman is recovering. The authorities did not know for hours what they were dealing with and the policeman and the daughter still LIVE!

Worst the supposed victim is also alive having survived hours before was treated, and as they apparently had no idea what it was, has survived whatever they pumped into him at PORTAM DOWN in a just in case scenario.

Ignorance allows a government MINISTRY OF TRUTH and their echo chamber the mass media to saturate the ignorant with speculation, and something to blame.

Its all a distraction from the 500,000 thousand children we are assisting in dying of cholera in Yemen while stocking up the armaments of the benevolent Saudi Regime. The government is up to skulduggery all over the place, apart from the Middle East, as we assist the US in extraditing China out of Africa. A tanker of Russian liquefied natural gas (LNG), delivered on March 6 at Milford Haven, not forgetting the the brother-in-law of financial services minister Andrea Leadsom has donated £816,000 to the Conservative party since she first successfully ran for parliament at the last election have got from Russian residents

So we need BREXIT we need spy stories that also seem genuine to distract the lynch mob for the crooks, fraudsters, and war mongering profiteers, that actually run the country.
 billybonds
Joined: 8/8/2014
Msg: 7
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/10/2018 9:50:37 PM
Maybe if you don't mind justinelle we can have your views on
Syria, Thanks .

I love how someone tried to delete this thread for attention seeking. Declare yourself, so that we may know you .
 duracell_bunny_one
Joined: 1/21/2015
Msg: 8
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/11/2018 4:21:35 AM
"Russian spy: Salisbury diners told to wash possessions"

All possessions?

..........Does that include the goldfish?

 Squareslice
Joined: 10/17/2016
Msg: 9
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/11/2018 6:21:51 AM
So sorry my reply was not up to your standard... off to click away now
 RoxyMoronic
Joined: 6/7/2016
Msg: 10
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/11/2018 2:10:23 PM

So we need BREXIT we need spy stories that also seem genuine to distract the lynch mob for the crooks, fraudsters, and war mongering profiteers, that actually run the country.

This
and this:

we’ve killed loads of theirs and they’ve killed loads of ours, nothing changes. Do you honestly think we’ve never murdered people in Russia?


I should be outraged, everyone should.....why aren’t we?
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 11
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/12/2018 5:25:06 AM
No doubt that our government will try to slip stuff out quietly but they do that all the time, late Friday, Sunda, last day of parliament etc.

And a couple of other days for teeth gnashers coming up, 3rd baby for katie and Wills, the ever lovely gorgeous (she's not really black) Megan and Posh Ginge.

p.s. - washing your clothes in water will guarantee destroying nerve agents. Goldfish are safe as long as they don't go for a walk. You heard it here first.
 RoxyMoronic
Joined: 6/7/2016
Msg: 12
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/12/2018 5:31:46 AM
Will the ‘evidence’ point to Russia? And will we have the balls to say who?

I’ll be pretty cross if it turns out all the people in the vicinity are at risk.
Traces found in restaurant and pub?
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 13
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/12/2018 5:44:50 AM
Well I think it is accepted by the Government the Litvinenko (sp) was killed by the KGB or their replacement. Whilst all the niceties have changed, there is so much less overt aggression, the Russians are still living as though WW2 never finished. The Russian people have never had freedom, the Tsars were replaced with another bunch of kleptocrats in 1917ish and they are still there.
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 14
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/12/2018 8:07:50 AM
Here's something I didn't know even existed - did you?

"The former commander of the British regiment that specialised in detecting chemical weapons has criticised the lack of information given to the public about the Salisbury attack and claimed the authorities were “blindsided” by it.

Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, the ex-commander of the joint chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear (CBRN) regiment, said people in Salisbury were fearful and argued that the government should have been more open about what the city faced."

Speaking to the Guardian, De Bretton-Gordon, who advises a medical charity in Syria, said: “We’ve been dealing with this kind of thing in Syria for five years and we find the more information we give people, particularly civilians, the better. Salisbury is no war zone but people are obviously very fearful. I think they need more information. They need to be told how it is.” He emphasised the psychological harm chemical weapons could inflict.

The CBRN regiment was disbanded in 2011 as part of a cost-cutting defence review. “I expect we need a new one as soon as possible,” he said.
 _Rise_Above_This_
Joined: 1/14/2018
Msg: 15
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/12/2018 11:20:13 AM

washing your clothes in water will guarantee destroying nerve agents. Goldfish are safe as long as they don't go for a walk. You heard it here first.


To start with if it was on your clothes you would be absorbing it before you got a chance.

Sarin has a high volatility (ease with which a liquid can turn into a gas) relative to similar nerve agents, therefore inhalation can be very dangerous and even vapor concentrations may immediately penetrate the skin. A person’s clothing can release sarin for about 30 minutes after it has come in contact with sarin gas, which can lead to exposure of other people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#Use_as_a_weapon

As for goldfish.

The day after the attack, dead fish were found in a pond near the scene. The bodies of dogs, birds, and a large number of caterpillars were found in the area. Grass and trees had withered and the trees' leaves had discoloured. Nearly all of the casualties had been discovered within a radius of 150 metres from the centre, near the pond. People near open windows or in air-conditioned rooms had been exposed to the gas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumoto_sarin_attack
 duracell_bunny_one
Joined: 1/21/2015
Msg: 16
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/12/2018 11:57:11 AM
Thank goodness it wasn't Sarin then.............
Dig out your copy of 'Protect & Survive'
and go hide under the stairs............
......you know it makes sense...........

 justinelle
Joined: 8/28/2017
Msg: 17
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/12/2018 2:18:55 PM
Nerve gase Novichok, the official nerve agent used, is up to 8 TIMES more toxic than nerve agent VX.

Breathing lethal dose or getting a lethal dose of VX on the skin, even at very low concentrations, can KILL in ONE to TEN minutes. Novichok being far more effective. failed to kill Sergei Skripal and his daughter, while the police were eventually called, who assumed the victims were drunk, and eventually realised they were ill. Sergei Skripal, his daughter and the third…. Policeman appear to have been very fortunate, as all appear to have a natural immunity that slowed down the effect not to ten minutes but hours..

Facts do not fit the media and government message….WHY? It should be post mortem by now, not 3 potential Lazarus’s

Exposure to nerve agents can be detected in both urine and blood through laboratory testing., and having Porton Down just down the road is most convenient.

The media, and the Government cannot back out now, the hysteria prevents anything but a continuation making the media sensation of THE BEAST FROM THE EAST something of a preperation for the present situation
.
We do not need evidence anymore, we just need constantly repeated opinions till they become absolute facts in the minds of the people, a very effective propaganda tool.
 Hotbeaching
Joined: 5/21/2017
Msg: 18
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 6:17:29 AM
Has anyone managed to dig out any buried news, I would but I’m feeling lazy
 RoxyMoronic
Joined: 6/7/2016
Msg: 19
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 6:38:42 AM
^^^Well it turns out Father Christopher has been having an affair with one of the young mums at church.
Her, hubby and kids have decided to move to Paris and Father Christopher is having to go to Malawi carrying his shame.
It’s a bit hush hush but I got the intel today :)
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 20
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 7:21:12 AM
Thought you wrote Father Christmas!

Sheesh - Jim Bowen and Stephen Hawking died today.


In order to maintain the highest quality forums you are restricted to having no more then 2 of the last 10 posts on a thread.
Since 2 of the last 10 posts are yours you can not post to this thread. (but who else will?)
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 21
Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 7:37:03 AM
I read this, but I think you have to take everything "with a pinch of salt:
(Especially from "sky news", who might well have their own "editorial ("political") agenda"

Dr Mirzayanov said that novichok, which means "newcomer", can be made from two separate compounds similar to chemicals used in agriculture, and which crucially are not on the chemical weapons convention banned list.

In that way, he said, novichok could be transported to the site of an attack in its constituent parts without detection, and once assembled the tiny micro particles could easily be deployed using an aerosol, spray, liquid or wipe.

He thinks it is likely that the attack was carried out using a spray, which maximises the chances of a victim getting the nerve agent on their skin and also inhaling it.

Dr Mirzayanov described the secret development of the powerful nerve agent as "a plot against the world" designed to maintain chemical weapons capability without having to declare it to the international community.

https://news.sky.com/story/spy-poisoning-novichok-inventor-says-hundreds-could-be-at-risk-for-years-11287880

Bear in mind that this guy "defected", and campaigns against chemical weapons.
Note that he says "similar to chemicals used in agriculture".
Well, I'm no chemist, but I know that sodium chloride is common salt, and sodium chlorate is "chemically similar", and "looks similar", but is actually an "agricultural" weed killer, which can be used to make bombs.
(Long story about a misspent youth, but sometime around 1972, I was working for a builders' merchant, in the brickyard, and we "experimented"....- with disastrous results. )

-But I'm genuinely curious about this case, and to a certain extent, I share Justin's concerns about incontrovertible "proof", of the Russian state's involvement
It seems to me that for example; (another?) disgruntled former spy, or someone with a grudge against this former spy, could have killed him and "framed" Russia, or maybe killed him, in order to specifically frame Russia.
Having said that, there's no doubt that Russia has been assassinating its political opponents.
-And there's no doubt that it's become a corrupt capitalist country, that now uses the remnants of the former "apparatus" of an oppressive "communist" regime, to achieve the "oligarchy" which now operates there.
Most of the billionaires who emerged after the "collapse", got their wealth through dodgy deals with former "kgb" officials; abramovich, et al.
-And those people use their wealth, and power, and continued access to "state assets" and "agents", to "remove the loose ends", gangster style.
-There's no doubt that a seemingly disproportionate number of opponents to either the state, or its "oligarchical hegemony", (distributed throughout the world)
DO seem to be dying, "under suspicious circumstances".
As do journalists, IN Russia.
So I try to keep an open mind.
This isn't beyond them.

Facts do not fit the media and government message….WHY? It should be post mortem by now, not 3 potential Lazarus’s

-Justinelle.
The thing is (IMO) we only know anything about this, because of the media and/or government messages.
We only know it was a (alleged) "nerve agent", because they told us.
We only know that Russia, and others have developed such weapons, because they told us.
Even the people, who were unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity of these two people, didn't know it was a "chemical weapons attack", at the time, nor did the police, nor did the ambulance personnel.

So where do we get our "news", if not from the media, telling us what the (various) governments say??

I'm reluctant to believe the sorts of "conspiracy theory" bullshit, which you so often see on line.
My late best friend (died 2012 ) used to believe it was all one big conspiracy; the govt, the churches, the wealthy, the monarchy, the banks, , -he thought just about everyone was conspiring together, against us.
My argument was that while I didn't doubt that there were hundreds, - or maybe thousands of different individual conspiracies against "us",
- still I really don't credit those people with having enough intelligence to coordinate their efforts in any "orchestrated" way.
They can't even "get their story straight", between almost any two of them!

So, I think the expulsion of 23 "diplomats" is possibly premature.
I still need to be convinced that ONLY the "Russian state" could have done this.
While I agree that it could be them,
at the moment, I remain open to the possibility that "someone stole their gun", and left it at the murder scene.

If Russia "retaliates", - by cutting off our GAS, we might have "shot ourselves in the foot".
Then there's all that dodgy Russian money, sloshing about, in companies, and property, and even political "donations".
"Money talks", which is why this dodgy government is prepared to do deals with Saudi Arabia, or Russia, or china, regardless of their morals, or their abysmal human rights records.

As long as we remain a society which reveres wealth, -regardless of how it was achieved, and "worships" the wealthy, and acquiesces to their self-serving demands and "lobbying", our society will continue to suffer from their corruption of our values.
Jmo
Have a nice Wednesday.
 RoxyMoronic
Joined: 6/7/2016
Msg: 22
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 7:45:37 AM
Lol chap :)

Ok my conspiracy?
It’s the remainers not Russia. They want us to feel vulnerable and scared.
If we have more power/leverage within the EU we should probably stay....bye bye Brexit.
Funny how this has happened now eh.
Think about ittttt.....
:)
 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 23
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 8:01:32 AM
and the **stards killed ken Dodd!


I know I know
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 Justanotherchap
Joined: 12/4/2013
Msg: 24
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 8:03:05 AM
Crikey, May is getting tough. No high level delegation to the world Cup this year. That'll be a lot of pissed off freeloaders.

In order to maintain the highest quality forums you are restricted to having no more then 2 of the last 10 posts on a thread.
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 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 25
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Questioning the media message
Posted: 3/14/2018 8:05:23 AM
Roxy
"Ok my conspiracy?
It’s the remainers not Russia. They want us to feel vulnerable and scared. 
If we have more power/leverage within the EU we should probably stay....bye bye Brexit. 
Funny how this has happened now eh.
Think about ittttt....."

That thought crossed my mind as well hen.

That rich bint Gina miller is out with some tossers from the huge fund managers for a beer a few months back.

They bump into vince cable in kfc and go for a pint to the stabb Inn on the high street.

How can we ignore the wishes of 17.4 million citizens and still seem democratic?

By getting Russia the blame for something.

What better than bump off a Russian traitor and get the russkis to sabre rattle?

Germany then says let's team up and do the dafties BUT ONLY IF YOUS ABANDON BREXIT.

George Galloway said on the radio the day 'who benefits most from this?'

It's obvious to me. Remain do.

And cheers all for the lack of concern about me working somewhere near Salisbury. I'm no sure how far but it was one of the places on a road sign.
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