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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?      Home login  
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 Kissfromarose77
Joined: 4/2/2018
Msg: 1
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Are we free to make our own choices and free to pursue whatever path we want to in life, as the media would have us believe, or are we slaves to the ideas that we’ve been indoctrinated with in our own upbringing and the necessity to adapt to society in order to survive? How can an individual opt out the collective in order to be free? Individuality has to adapt to the collective in order to survive. From the moment we are born we are dependent on others for food and shelter. It order to progress in society you need to play by certain rules. Is there freedom for individuality within the constraints of the collective?
 reason782
Joined: 1/28/2017
Msg: 2
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/11/2018 10:37:12 PM
both, born free and slaves, we are slaves to our own ideologies, but our own ideology could as much give us larger bounds of freedom to act on. If something you feel is a constraint or a boundary, usually the best way to go about it is to change the way you think about it or perceive it. Some monstrosity could on its counter be perceived as minuscule in comparison. And if this is possible if one is open minded then it should be obvious that way one thinks of things is what causes them to be a slave as much as it could cause them to be free

the more you subtract the more you will be free, subtract ideology and narrative, and i promise you freedom
 reason782
Joined: 1/28/2017
Msg: 3
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/12/2018 1:25:49 AM
to be baptized is to be immersed within water, to mean exclusively plunging someone entirely under the surface of the water.

To be baptized is for B to be contained within A for some interval of time then to come out of A.

do I have to say any more, can you fill in the blanks yourself? ... again more cuckery, that is astounding...

although partial immersion is enough for some people. I could go on all day. GG folks
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 4
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/12/2018 3:53:21 AM
I think different words (and hence, different concepts) would be more accurate.

Instead of "free or slaves," recognize that we are born with a range of human characteristics, both limited and enhanced by DNA and circumstances, and that there are CONSEQUENCES to what decisions and choices we make.

You don't lack freedom of choice. It's just that with choice, comes consequence.

Thus, you are free to do as you like, but some actions may have more unpleasant "after effects" than others.

You don't HAVE to cater to the society you are in. But when you don't, you might not retain their cooperation.
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
Msg: 5
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/12/2018 6:23:54 PM
You only have as much freedom as the options there are on offer to you. Not everyone has the same options and there is a hierarchical structure in place that ensures not everyone has the same freedoms.

No, there is no place for true freedom in any society. Those who lead it are outside of it for example, they have 'progressed' elsewhere by not following the rules that everyone else does to remain in it, and were likely born into circumstances that allowed that. Anyone not born into those circumstances but plays by their rules ends up in prison or outcast by society, which i find strange.
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 6
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/12/2018 7:21:00 PM
We are all but slaves to our own shortcomings. True freedom comes by conquering our own individual weaknesses.Just another opinion and therefore perhaps my own philosophy?
 Kissfromarose77
Joined: 4/2/2018
Msg: 7
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/12/2018 9:56:59 PM

You don't lack freedom of choice. It's just that with choice, comes consequence.

Thus, you are free to do as you like, but some actions may have more unpleasant "after effects" than others.

You don't HAVE to cater to the society you are in. But when you don't, you might not retain their cooperation.


Yes, but are we not all slaves to the ideologies that we have been indoctrinated with from a young age. For example, it’s a common belief that everything is progressing and technology has made people’s lives so much better. If you think outside of the box, you can challenge this idea.

I don’t think that somebody living outside the confines of a society would necessarily be free either. A person alone in the wilderness would need to adapt to nature in order to survive because nature won’t change for them. Perhaps it’s in everybody’s best interest to retain some cooperation of society while allowing individuals to question what they have been brought up to believe.
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
Msg: 8
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/14/2018 7:37:08 PM
It's a bit of everything then isn't it? Some people lives have been improved by stuff and some haven't. Some things give you freedoms and the same thing does not.

A homeless person is free from paying rent or a mortgage but they have no money so aren't free to choose to do what they want, which might be to pay rent or a mortgage.

Whooo paradoxical.
 Shyvago
Joined: 3/10/2018
Msg: 9
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/15/2018 8:58:36 PM
Just a general idea here: whenever a question generates paradoxes, maybe it's worth taking a step back and sort of questioning the question. I think one of the background assumptions of your question is "Is pure freedom really a coherent concept? Doesn't the very idea of freedom rely on a certain assumption of non-freedom/determinedness as a limiting feature of the world?". I would say no to the first question, yes to the second.

This could be one of those debates like nature/nurture, good/evil, and many other dualistic conceptions. Both concepts rely on their opposites to define and give meaning to the other. Imagine a world of perfect "good" as we here in our world understand that concept. No one lies, no one breaks the law etc. Would people living in that world even have a concept of "good" or lawfulness? Would when someone obeys the law, they say "John always obeys the law. I left my wallet out on the table and forgot about it and he could have taken it, and I would have never known, but he didn't. He's a good citizen and an honest man." I believe that people of that society would not even have a concept of good or honesty unless evil or dishonesty were also possible and present. If everybody always went around obeying the law or were always honest with each other, they would have no conception that it was possible for people to not obey the law or be dishonest. Such a society, because it was missing it's dualistic opposite, would form a concept of neither good nor evil. It would simply assume that this is how things are and have no label for it or for the possibility of it's opposite.

I would say the same thing about a universe of pure freedom. Such a universe would have no conception of freedom. People acting in that universe would have no word for "freedom" because to do so would require both the reality of, and an understanding and word for it's opposite. To conceive of freedom is to also conceive of it's possible frustration. FYI: If you want to see a humorous version of this, I recommend the movie "The Invention of Lying" with Ricky Gervais.
 Kissfromarose77
Joined: 4/2/2018
Msg: 10
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/22/2018 4:32:49 AM
Well to me the whole concept of “private property” represents of a total lack of freedom. “If you trespass, you’ll be shot.” But I have to accept that the society that I live in believes the opposite. In that way, I was born into slavery.
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/24/2018 3:43:45 AM
The difficulty with the question of free will versus causal determinism is that the question isn't asked correctly. How it is popularly asked ushers in sabotaging assumptions and premature conclusions.

Navigating between influential forces and self prerogative is a matter of whether or not you A) choose and own up to responsibility, and honesty...and B) do the work to make yourself informed and intelligent.

And...there are no good or bad consequences, there is only feedback.
 Kelley300698
Joined: 3/21/2018
Msg: 12
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/24/2018 8:39:36 AM
I don't if we are slaves but we have far less freedom than the serfs of middle ages. When the government robs you of half of you earn, when even you house is not yours, and when the government is all powerful and the people have no power, that is not freedom. However, most people don't want freedom; they want to feel safe and they need someone in authority to tell them what to do.
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 13
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/24/2018 7:46:23 PM
janis joplin freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose?
However, most people don't want freedom; they want to feel safe and they need someone in authority to tell them what to do.
I really do not know if there is a huge portion of society that "feels safe" because of "authority" yes some people may feel this way but most????not buying it sorry...
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 14
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/24/2018 7:49:17 PM
because - should read correlated with
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
Msg: 15
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/25/2018 7:43:41 AM
I seriously destroyed and threw all my tax bills in the bin this morning as they were pissing me off. They are not retrievable. I feel free.
 reason782
Joined: 1/28/2017
Msg: 16
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 4/25/2018 7:50:34 AM
born free as the birds until were indoctrinated into believing some things are important. nothing really matters.
 justinelle
Joined: 8/28/2017
Msg: 17
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/12/2018 5:39:09 AM
The joke is…….. you are just farmed animals bred to work till you are useless, paid as little as possible and then encouraged with what little money you have…….. to spend, spend and spend buying stuff and thrills ………all supplied through various corporate interests both directly and indirectly.

Your purpose is to make money for them that know what to do with it, and meanwhile you are made to think you have choices, freedom all dependent on you income of course. So the invisible chains these day keep most well bred animals in their place, others are restrained though debt obligation and the biggest joke of all the pension industry. This encourages people to save with a bunch of greedy self interested crooks for a future…… decades away when prices, inflation, will have diminished what the crooks could not legally steal through legal loopholes, takeovers, or just plain bankruptcy.

So filling little heads with ideas of freedoms, which all cost of course as its no longer a state of mind its owned just like you are, and you pay for it one way or another.

So keep on dreaming of how free you are, while you times on this earth, is slowly stolen from you as your job is to enrich others, far more worthy than your dear good selves. So you loose both your time and your money....swindled out of both….maybe its a new freedom I have not heard of before, but keep running on the ...I want.....treadmill while you think about it.

Studies on hunter gatherer peoples living in mainly marginal areas in Africa, (well they are primitive and the best land had to be taken by more advanced peoples) found that to satisfy all their needs….as in food, shelter, tools and so on, they individually had at most to work for just around 14 hours a week. This on marginal land, almost desert conditions where resources were few. The rest of the time these underdeveloped both culturally and materially, was socialising, partying, family friends and relations and so on.

Its good to know how clever we are…as today….. working, shopping, travelling takes a bit longer than 14 hours a week, and we are civilised, advanced, more educated than those throwbacks to our past.

We can teach them a thing or two about suffering, worry, fears, deprivation, bills, so maybe its time to send in the missionaries again to teach them what living is really all about!!! This is freedom so lets rejoice at how clever and wonderful we are.
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 18
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/13/2018 5:24:31 AM
^All you derogation of freedom is framed as "you people" but then you throw in the solution as we-you too belong to the "yous" that are the
we :
trained animals searching freedom from the ever oppressive system...and if you are looking to obtain support for a movement maybe ~talk as an us or I throughout!!
 justinelle
Joined: 8/28/2017
Msg: 19
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/13/2018 1:04:20 PM
Inica ....it appears instead of examining the message which you obviously disregarded you decided to follow the norm and attack the messenger...BRILLIANT!! You are a very well conditioned animal, and thus go to the top of the class. Why bother with fact, as the news on the mainstream media is all about personality, sensation, the messenger sod the facts.

Maybe sticking to binary reactions as in or outside the box is as taxing as it gets.

In this Orwellian economic, social, and media construct, realising you are insignificant except to yourself and a few other insecurities huddling together for some sense of personal identity. You like most are just product, to be used till you are useless and then to be discarded. It is what the corporate run world is all about...filling empty minds with distractions till they are ready for the scrap heap, and giving them ideas of jam tomorrow or next week. Hope is about selling idiots concepts, its the new corporate religious mantra to keep you producing / working ...stealing you most productive youthful time, for a tomorrow that will not happen. Meanwhile relationship questions remain unanswered even if you have one that is, as there is so little FREE time.....wake up!!!
 ghostata
Joined: 3/29/2018
Msg: 20
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/13/2018 7:27:48 PM
^^^^ you really need medication...geezes are you a fruitcake.
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 21
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/14/2018 7:14:09 PM
You Justin are not my messenger...you are just another person- as all of us- I already know that message- i have known since 12 years old and I am 52 so your new message is fodder.. you think people do not know- tons of songs "rat in a cage" cogs in a wheel" and struggling to be a we- so saying you are a bunch of idiots, then saying "we" is trash- insulting every bodies brain and existence, expecting people to hear- I am giving you personally a clear, message- you are offending those you want to hear your "message"- not saying your message has problems - you are communicating it poorly on a public forum-bees to honey flies to shit- so you want maggots or more honey makers??? your choice!! keep up as you are you'll get maggots
 ghostata
Joined: 3/29/2018
Msg: 22
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/14/2018 8:33:02 PM
^^^ we are free for the most part...free to choose our course in life, limited of course by our resources. For the most part, the chains people wear are chains of their own making. Nothing is stopping you from being a bohemiam artist if you choose, just like you can choose to be a slave to a high status lifestyle. Whatever floats your boat.
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 23
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/16/2018 6:19:14 PM
^ RO chains of our own making-we can be limited by a system physically-however, our minds/feelings/souls etc are our own- that is an understanding to free any and all.
 WakemanR
Joined: 2/4/2018
Msg: 24
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A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/28/2018 5:23:16 AM
Well, there are plenty of conspiratorial haze in your post to suggest you believe we're slaves.

In this case, the term "slave" ought to be defined. Without that, we may be talking at cross-purposes.

As a general statement I'd say - you're free to do as you please. However, human beings have not evolved as single, solitary, beings. We have a culture, we have norms (which vary according to culture), we have necessary (and unnecessary rules in place to protect us and decide conflict etc.)

So for example - we have a norm of land ownership. Say, I buy a house in the middle of a forest. Now, you might decide you don't want anything to do with society at large, and want to live alone away from everyone. So you pitch up a tent in my forest. In this case, you may feel free, but actually you're trespassing over MY rights are prescribed by the society I subscribe to.

Now, not all norms, laws, and rules were created to oppress people. Actually, most of them came about because there was someone too stupid to recognize what is fair and reasonable, and what isn't. And yes, there are rules you have to play by - sadly, if there weren't, all hell would break loose.

That said, you can circumvent this with a little work. just make sure you're not harming anyone else. For example, I've had no trouble avoiding committing crimes in my life time. Not through any special effort, but by doing things that were right.
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 25
A philosophical question: Are we born free or slaves?
Posted: 5/30/2018 8:13:52 PM
So if an institution of learning, law, production is - preventing or killing(via product or actions) refusing medical care- housing -clean water for reasons ranging from anything ( color-gender identity- citizen status- felons-income- socio-status ad nausea). because poor infrastructure with irresponsible management/public servants are they not hurting someone? Or just outside social mores-laws-regulations, as an entity unto itself with protection aqnd no obligation to these stated social mores and norms we must work within or an entity supported, funded and elected by a majority???? HMM interesting??? Yes this IS! No conspiracy fully aware that we the people of the earth are this same system- i do not consider it a they- it is an US.. NO BIG THEY!!
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