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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > What will America do, if Donny won't leave?      Home login  
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 Viper1j
Joined: 2/6/2015
Msg: 1
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
He's already talked about declaring himself "President For Life", now he claims that he's above the law. He thinks he was elected God, which could be a real problem when he's voted out.

Will it take a Civil War to evict him from the White House?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/04/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-legal-strategy/index.html

Trump's above-the-law presidency

Donald Trump's vision of an unrestrained and all-powerful presidency shines through in a staggeringly audacious defense of his actions related to the Russia probe that his legal team sent to special counsel Robert Mueller.
The assertions made by Trump's former lawyer John Dowd and Jay Sekulow, who remains on his team, in a just-revealed letter to Mueller spell out an expansive definition of presidential authority to explain why Trump should face no legal liability for his actions -- including the firing of FBI Director James Comey.

The letter, which a source told CNN Trump reviewed and approved before it was sent in January, includes the caveat, "Of course, the President of the United States is not above the law," but then makes an argument that implies that he is, in fact, exactly that. Comments by Trump's lead lawyer Rudy Giuliani on Sunday on the question of whether Trump could pardon himself to end the Russia probe and on the impossibility of a President being indicted also suggest a brazen interpretation of the scope of presidential power.

Sunday's developments cement a trend evident ever since Trump entered the White House: his notion that presidential power is sweeping and unfettered. In his words and actions, Trump has shown little patience for unwritten norms and customs that have acted to constrain the authority of his office over the last two centuries.

By implication, the letter, published by The New York Times on Saturday, argues that the President is within his rights to shut down an investigation into his own conduct and to pardon associates accused of criminal action while avoiding consequences to himself.

"I think those legal arguments are extreme and they are really ridiculous," Renato Mariotti, a former federal prosecutor, told CNN's Ana Cabrera. "The reason that these positions have never been taken before is that they are very much outside the mainstream," he added. "These are dangerous views."

In recent days alone, Trump has offered repeated evidence of his willingness to claim and wield broad presidential power.
He has imposed fierce pressure on the FBI and the Justice Department over the Russia probe, ignoring the firewall that commonly exists between the White House and such agencies to avoid the impression that the administration of justice is politicized. Last week, Trump pardoned conservative commentator Dinesh D'Souza after bypassing pardon vetting procedures typically conducted by the Department of Justice.

The extraordinarily broad interpretation of presidential authority in the letter raises the question of the motivations of Trump's lawyers. "I assume it is part of a strategy that when they actually do act, they will act somewhat short of those claims so people will be relieved that the President didn't pardon himself," said CNN political analyst David Gergen, a former adviser to Democratic and Republican presidents. "But at the same time he may do what exactly he really wants to do and that is to pardon a number of people so they won't flip."

The arguments of Trump's lawyers are also likely motivated by a long-term goal of sparing the President the ordeal of testifying under oath, a scenario many of his allies believe would be a disaster given his proclivity not to tell the truth.
Giuliani might have inadvertently tipped his hand when he said on ABC News' "This Week" that the President should not testify before Mueller because "our recollection keeps changing."

Outrageous claim

The audacity of the lawyers' presentation may also be calculated to convince Mueller not to mount a legal effort to compel the President's testimony -- a struggle that could add months to his investigation. But it is open to question whether a court would accept many of the positions in the letter, which is characterized more by advocacy than demonstrated legal precedents.

For instance, the lawyers argue in a discussion about the case of fired former national security adviser Michael Flynn and the subsequent firing of Comey that a President, by definition, cannot obstruct justice given his position as the nation's ultimate legal authority. "The President's actions here, by virtue of his position as the chief law enforcement officer, could neither constitutionally nor legally constitute obstruction because that would amount to him obstructing himself, and that he could, if he wished, terminate the inquiry, or even exercise his power to pardon if he so desired," the letter argued.

Such a bold assertion of presidential power is highly controversial.

"It's an outrageous claim, it's wrong," said former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, who is a Trump ally and former prosecutor. Many legal scholars dispute the idea that a President cannot obstruct justice. While Trump did have the authority to fire Comey, the question becomes whether he had corrupt intent in doing so -- the issue at the center of Mueller's obstruction investigation.

A Brookings Institution study in October concluded that the President's authority to fire the head of the FBI in this case was a "red herring." "The fact that the president has lawful authority to take a particular course of action does not immunize him if he takes that action with the unlawful intent of obstructing a proceeding for an improper purpose," the report said. The notion that a President could wield his own power to end an investigation into himself with impunity would meanwhile appear to contradict the core purpose of the nation's founders, to ensure that the presidency did not adopt the unfettered authority of the monarchy that it replaced.

'Self executing impeachment'

Giuliani's decision to even discuss the notion that the President could pardon himself also whipped up a storm.
He said on "This Week" that Trump "probably does" have the power to pardon himself, but he insisted the President would not do so and noted troubling political ramifications of any such action. Preet Bharara, the former US attorney for the Southern District of New York who was fired by Trump, warned on CNN's "State of the Union" that such a move would be tantamount to "almost self-executing impeachment." This is not the first time that the idea of a President pardoning himself has been mooted.

Former President Richard Nixon took steps to examine the question during the Watergate scandal only to see his own Justice Department advise him that he could not do so on the grounds that "no one may be a judge in his own case."
Nixon encapsulated his view, which is mirrored by Trump's lawyers in their letter to Mueller, by telling David Frost after he took office, "When the President does it, that means it is not illegal."

Giuliani also advanced the case that Trump could escape sanction for any actions he takes as President by telling HuffPost that Trump hypothetically could have shot Comey in the Oval Office to end the Russia probe and not face prosecution for it while in office. The former New York mayor was making a wider point that the proper remedy for presidential wrongdoing is the Constitutionally provided procedure of impeachment. "If he shot James Comey, he'd be impeached the next day," Giuliani said to HuffPost. "Impeach him, and then you can do whatever you want to do to him."

Giuliani did not immediately return CNN's request for comment on his statement.

In 2000, the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel issued a memo concluding that the job of the President is so important that he has effective immunity from being indicted and criminally prosecuted while in office. The Supreme Court, however, has not definitively resolved the question.
 Looney_TTT
Joined: 2/1/2016
Msg: 2
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 5:44:38 AM
Yeah well, when your recollections keep changing -

LMAO - the deplorables will most certainly have a shyt fit if their boy gets called in to testify.

He will have to "recollect" all those facts and "alternative" facts.

I wonder if they kept a record of all their "facts" - how thick would that file be?
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 3
view profile
History
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 6:13:53 AM
At first I thought it was really dumb that you guys were choosing between geriatrics in 2016. Now I realise it was a masterstroke - in case of dictatorship... wait. They will drop off natually in a few years anyway!
 from site to sight
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 4
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 6:40:49 AM
Moe "brilliance" from Trump:


Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

As has been stated by numerous legal scholars, I have the absolute right to PARDON myself, but why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong? In the meantime, the never ending Witch Hunt, led by 13 very Angry and Conflicted Democrats (& others) continues into the mid-terms!
8:35 AM - Jun 4, 2018


Why would Trump even bring it up, unless he knows the noose is tightening? If he's as innocent as he keeps claiming to be, why not let the investigation run its course without commenting on it and making stupid statements? If I was accused or suspected of a crime I did not commit, I would welcome an investigation to prove my innocence. Only a guilty person would object to an investigation and bring out a "Get out of Jail" card.
 Viper1j
Joined: 2/6/2015
Msg: 5
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 6:46:04 AM
Will the military follow him if he declares himself King? Will Pence?

Mikey would be reduced from VP to Court Jester.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 6
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 7:09:31 AM
Trump can only "pardon himself" if he farts.
Any other pardons will require permission from his boss, Putin.
For the foreseeable future, he remains Putin's piss-gimp.

I'm hoping that Mueller taking this long is simply an indication that they're making sure their case against big Donny is every bit as "airtight" as ivanka is,
- when Eric, daddy jnr, and daddy are having their "special time".

Imagine how the orange chimp must be feeling, knowing that there's a piss-tape, and knowing that it actually happened, and knowing that Putin has it, and knowing that everybody already seems to know about it, and knowing that Putin (or someone else, - there doesn't seem to be much "discipline" among the ex-KGB) could release it at any time.

It's no wonder he's so manic every day.

RELEASE THE PISS TAPES!!!!
FREE MELANOMIA!!!!


Just my humble opinion.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 7
view profile
History
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 7:15:48 AM
The timing of Trump’s potential impeachment is becoming very important. Getting rid of him after the Democrats take over if it becomes obvious that he’s committed significant crimes and is heading toward dictatorship is not really the issue, because impeachment is not pardonable. But if he pardons himself before impeachment and removal, then he can’t get proper just due afterwards and will continue to be a thorn in the side of the government for years to come (ignoring the fact that, as Ginger points out, he shouldn’t be living much longer after he leaves office, but somehow he’s still alive despite his obvious health issues, so who knows, like his doctor says, he might live to be 200). Him pardoning all the people that could flip on him so they won’t flip is arguably less an issue, because after they are pardoned, then they can be forced to testify against him without the ability to plead the fifth, since they can no longer incriminate themselves. But if Trump can’t be prosecuted because he already pardoned himself as well, then what’s the point beyond the country knowing the complete truth?

I mean, there is some truth to what Giuliani says, but his attitude on the matter is very self-contradictory – he’s both suggesting that Trump should pardon himself and be prosecuted only after his impeached and convicted, yet if the first happens, then the first part of the second will never happen, and Trump will get away with everything he’s done. To some extent, I suppose the majority of American people can live with that, if that’s the cost of getting him out of the office, but again, he will continue to lead a very large and dangerous cult and be capable of continuing to inflict major damage on this country unless he is behind bars. That said, even if he doesn’t pardon himself, I think it’s highly questionable as to whether he would end up behind bars – if Nixon didn’t, why would Trump? Although at this point, I have to say, Nixon was guilty of much less than Trump is. Nixon was just a paranoid cover-up artist who didn’t even instigate the scandal that drove him from office. Trump is corrupt and dishonest to the core and showing far more dictatorial tendencies than Nixon was.

I do think Trump pardoning himself (and possibly potential witnesses against him) would automatically lead to his impeachment, even if the Republicans somehow hold onto the House (not going to happen, no matter what polls say). That’s just a step too far even for some of his apologists and enablers and would be deemed highly suspicious. But that said, we continue to have this chicken-and-the-egg problem, because most likely Mueller is not going to indict a sitting president (I’m less certain about the Southern District of NY but they probably won’t either), and Trump probably wouldn’t pardon himself just because Mueller recommended he be impeached. Trump probably wouldn’t bother pardoning himself until impeachment looked likely or actually happened, and even then, probably not until he was convinced the Senate would convict him. He’s bare-knuckled fighter and despite knowing he was lying and did everything they would be trying him on, he’d probably keep fighting up until the point that he believed that he could end up in prison, THEN pardon himself right before removal. But would the Senate ever get to 67 votes (with at least 15 of them likely needing to be Republicans) unless he had pardoned himself? He’s a slippery weaselly snake and has many defendant rights, so convicting him in court (as opposed to the Senate) on anything may be like juggling eels.
 happata
Joined: 3/21/2018
Msg: 8
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 7:54:38 AM
If trump is successful with NK, he will be a hero....we will be stuck with him unless the econmy collapses, which is a distinct possibility.
 from site to sight
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 9
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 8:20:03 AM
I wonder if Trump hired the Russians to hack into Mueller's emails, in an attempt to find "dirt" on him- just like he's accused of hiring them to hack into Hillary's emails- to try to railroad the investigation (I'll keep quiet about the dirt I found on you if you end the investigation right now). Trump has proven time and time again, that he has no morals and will do whatever it takes to get his way-no matter if ti's legal or not.
 Looney_TTT
Joined: 2/1/2016
Msg: 10
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 9:05:31 AM
^^^^
I wonder if Trump hired the Russians to hack into Mueller's emails

Who needs Russians to do the hacking - just hire the Mossad er "Black Cube".


that he has no morals and will do whatever it takes to get his way-no matter if ti's legal or not.

Now don't go saying things like that - else "Johnny" (the deplorable) will come in and have to "educate" you
 happata
Joined: 3/21/2018
Msg: 11
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 9:59:36 AM
^^^^ I've watched John in action for a long time now... I am willing to bet he is of a higher IQ than most leftists here....Just sayin. As far as Mossad...you are right...they have some of the best cyber people out there, that is why they were hired to open that apple Phone for the FBI who was locked out, why they are the ones who developed Stuxnet playing Havoc with Iranian nuclear ambitions, until Obama exposed what was going on... If anybody can hack anything...it is Mossad...goes right up there with the Jews superior mathematical abilities...do you think Zuckerberg is an anomaly? Google? Read it and weep.....LOL
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_internet84.htm
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 12
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 11:02:45 AM

goes right up there with the Jews superior mathematical abilities...do you think Zuckerberg is an anomaly? Google? Read it and weep.....LOL
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_internet84.htm

From your site:

In the following document we will give an insight into the Jewish penetration of the Internet and also show the level of cooperation between leading Jewish Internet entrepreneurs and the racist Jewish Apartheid state of Israel.

The Jews - contrary to the "liberal" views they officially say they profess - in their suppressive acts practically demonstrate that they always seek to dominate the information flow, they don't tolerate any dissent.

It is just as when Israel says "Shalom" while Israel's military at the very same time pounds its Arab neighbor states with bombs and missiles.

The Arabs have learnt the hard way the falsehood of these Jewish statements, it is now time for the rest of the non-Jewish world to get this right, and to see that the freedom of information on the Net is seriously threatened.

-And that's just in the first few lines.
Did you read it?

As for "superior", you do know who you sound like....?

Critical thinking involves being critical and sceptical of any claims made.
-Not just calling people names.

The funny thing is, you're a "leftist", you actually agree with me on most things.
Just this religion thing is the exception.
And you believe there's no "personal god".
It's hard to shake off a lifetime's "conditioning".
-But is is possible, if you work at it.

People are just people, no more, no less. Not all are "equal", we all have differences.
If one "group" appears to be "more successful" it's more likely to be because of sociological/cultural differences, than it is to be because of "genetics".
There was a time, (during my lifetime) when it was alleged that people with darker skins were inherently "less capable".
That has been soundly disproved.

You're "blinded" by "confirmation-bias", you only "see" what you already believe.
-like you thought the above site was "proof" of "jewish supremacy", when in fact it's designed to "prove" the exact opposite; that "jews" are violent, duplicitous, and corrupt..

Personally, I don't believe there's any such "category", it's as imaginary as all the other alleged "races".
80% of their genomes are of european origins.
We're all mongrels actually, there has never existed any "pure race", not now, and never in the past.
Someday, all this will become "common knowledge".

-I'm just an "early adopter".
-Remember; you heard it here first.

Back on topic:
Ivanka now has the "right" to "israeli citizenship", and a "right of return", but people who were born there don't.
-But she's not clever enough to realise that there's something wrong with that.
So, I think kunt is quite apposite.
 Viper1j
Joined: 2/6/2015
Msg: 13
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 11:46:28 AM
The truly scary part is, that Donny watched China's president declare himself "President For Life", and said "Wow! I should try that."

But he can't do anything, without the support of the military. I can't help but wonder if there's some soldiers that won't follow him.
 Looney_TTT
Joined: 2/1/2016
Msg: 14
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 1:03:39 PM
^^^^
Oh yes - they would follow him blindly.

It's because they are indoctrinated to do so in boot camp.

No matter what, he is their commander and they shall follow - even off the cliff.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 15
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 1:56:27 PM
Don't think anyone needs to worry about what the fungibles would or wouldn't do. Generals and admirals don't do boot camp. And *they* are pledged to protect the constitution. A coup attempt by the preznit would not be taken well, to say the least.
 happata
Joined: 3/21/2018
Msg: 16
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 3:05:53 PM
LOL... I remember some conspiracy theorists believing GWB would refuse to leave office too.....these were the same people who also believed the Twin Towers were an inside government job....same ludicrous arguments... why do leftists really believe the worst is possible?

Trump has gotten away with virtually nothing yet that is not within his constitutional powers....unfortunately he does have broad powers and the courts recognize that...but they also are not reluctant to rule against him either. He sure has not been able to shut down the Press has he?

Of course if the Courts, who have no army, lose all moral authority so that the executives no longer follow the edicts of the Courts...well our Democracy is over anyway. . . that could happen some day, but not today...still too many Judges in power who believe in the Rule of Law. This is not Nazi Germany...yet.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 17
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 3:19:06 PM
^ and yet it certainly shows those who pay any attention the insidious manner in which a Nazi Germany evolves...
 from site to sight
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 18
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 4:11:07 PM
Another question is what will the U.S. look like post-Trump? Trump isn't going to be president forever. He's in his 70's, so at some point, old age problems will start to creep in, and nobody lives forever.

Has Trump set the tone where another openly racist white supremacist can end up being president again? The knuckleheads who voted for Trump would love to see another hate monger, who preaches to make America white again. And has Trump set the tone where if a presidential candidate is accused of cheating, or sexually assaulting women, it's ignored, or labelled as fake news, and all is good? Bill Clinton became president too early

Or would Americans be tired of the Trump circus, and vote for someone who is competent, and tries to normalize relations with the rest of the world, instead of preaching hatred of other countries and start world wide trade wars?
 MachIMustangII
Joined: 2/16/2018
Msg: 19
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/4/2018 4:27:34 PM
1) I get that Chump runs his own brand, and so he's used to being the law of his land. As has been posted, he loves the idea of dictatorships, and he's still horny for a military parade.

2) I get that as a world-classless narcisisist, he has to be in charge of all of his lies. Being revealed as the ***hole he is, is going to stick a needle in that balloon of hot air, and bring him down.

3) I get that Rude Fooliani is as much a jerkoff and has the same desperate neediness for an open mic and attention. Letting him be in charge of PR is the funniest thing yet to happen to the Trumpster Fire.

4) If the GOP can show any ability whatsoever of actual leadership, they're going to have to rein in their tar baby. I can only hope they suffer the indigestion they deserve. out of 18 other candidates, this is what they foisted on us. And its going to be a constitutional crisis.

5) I can't blame Chump's lawyers not wanting him to testify--and who else doubts that? The moron lies about his lies. All one has to ask is about his numbers at the inauguration. He doesn't even has to be tricked into lying, he's a serial, habitual liar.

6) the Founding Fathers overthrew a monarch, and yet they wrote a Constitution to create another one? And The Republicans who always blather about the intentions of the Founding Fathers, can't see right thru this? At what point will they ever find their balls and show any sort of leadership?

7) will the military follow along? They've had a lot of dissention in the ranks at the top about the nuclear option. Of course, America is chock full of self appointed militias, maybe they'll take over another state park in Oregon in demonstration. What will the Supreme Court decide? Well, his appointee would have to step down, and that leads us to a tie...the SC had a chance to tell Bush v. Gore that the Constitution clearly demands a recount, and didn't do it.

8) if Chump pulls off a deal with NK as good as Clinton's, that would be great, but remember, Nixon opened up China and began the EPA, and he still went down. speaking of NK, they have the best crackers, they're robbing banks--but not for hire by Chump :)
 Viper1j
Joined: 2/6/2015
Msg: 20
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/5/2018 6:20:34 AM

I mean, there is some truth to what Giuliani says, but his attitude on the matter is very self-contradictory – he’s both suggesting that Trump should pardon himself and be prosecuted only after his impeached and convicted, yet if the first happens, then the first part of the second will never happen, and Trump will get away with everything he’s done. To some extent,


Wait, a person can be pardoned for what they DONE, not for what they might or will do. You can't pardon someone for something in the future, even a "self pardon". It would violate some basic law of physics and common sense for him to even attempt it. So, once he's out of office, that's the time to charge him, and since he's no longer president, there's no chance of a pardon for him.

I hope Robert Hanssen is fluffing the pillows, he's going to get a new girlfriend, and Donny will need them to scream into! :-)
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 21
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/5/2018 8:00:40 AM

You can't pardon someone for something in the future, even a "self pardon".

He got the settings wrong in his time machine. He's a throwback coming from a different time period and another country. He knows how this is going to play out but he's a little short on the timing.
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 6/5/2018 6:55:24 PM
Since before the campaign, I am still in WTF mode anyway.
 generalthunder
Joined: 5/16/2018
Msg: 23
view profile
History
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?
Posted: 7/14/2018 5:29:07 PM
Camel on an Arab said: He's a throwback coming from a different time period and another country.

Funny but he is what other counties desperately NEED!

Just listen to his words of truth for Europe, " he called for the construction of a border wall with Mexico and accused the country of sending migrants who were "bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."

TRUE! TRUE! TRUE! TRUE! TRUE! TRUE! TRUE! TRUE!
Viva la TRUMP!!!!
 DDSearle
Joined: 5/20/2017
Msg: 24
Donnie Or Donny?
Posted: 7/14/2018 5:53:11 PM
Unless of the family-name Osmond, the diminutive of Donald (or Don) is Donnie, not Donny
Master Elbert knew that. And I'm confident that the President does. But I doubt that the Supremes do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE3WXcQJars
Donnie Or Donny?
Posted: 7/14/2018 8:00:18 PM
What will America do, if Donny won't leave?

Y'all realize, don't you, that it's not even possible for Donny to successfully refuse to leave?
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