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 Kokanee_Ice
Joined: 2/16/2019
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Does a female version of chivalry exist or are women capable of being chivalrous in the same manner as men? If we ask men to embrace their “feminine side” most would not because they would perceive this as a threat to their masculinity. However, chivalry teaches men to honor the gentler qualities of manhood. If chivalry is about courtesy and respect for others and a willingness to help the weak, I don’t see why women can’t also be chivalrous. Should women be able to open doors, pull out chairs, and pay for dates, or can they be chivalrous in other ways? My own opinion on this is both men and women are capable of expressing virtues in the same ways but society has indoctrinated us into thinking that we should express them differently.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 2
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/20/2019 12:22:47 PM
I'm pretty sure women open doors, pull out chairs and pay for dates.
What other virtues did you have in mind?
Chivalry applied to knights in the old days...it was their code of conduct.
Nowadays I would think it just meant manners, so IMO, chivalry is just
used as a point of argument between the sexes.

Everyone should have manners and know how to use them.
Of course, paying for a date has been beaten to death in the forums.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 3
Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/20/2019 12:43:18 PM
good manners go both ways. I am somewhat old fashioned as I assume men pay, open doors etc. but never seen the logic in walking around the car to open her door, then back to my side. sliding chairs? while polite, seems harder any 'help' intended.
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 4
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/20/2019 7:08:34 PM

....but society has indoctrinated us into thinking that we should express them differently.


That is because for many decades & centuries.......women were beholden to men's desires and whims....way back when..in worst case scenarios, women were viewed as a man's "property"....making them susceptible to all kinds of injustices.

Enter the era of Chivalry.....when successful mounted-men-at arms became seen as honorable, just, or righteous...and who garnered fame and recognition by being honest, fair & courteous towards the less powerful, the disenfranchised, defeated foes...and last but not least...women in general..............Hence forth, the term "chivalrous" or knight-like manners or demeanor.

Does a female version of this exist?.....by traditional definition of this term....the answer would be NO, because there was never really a precedent where a man needed the special oversight or protection of a woman as a demonstration of her fairness, kindness, and generosity...because many had subservient roles.

While it is true that both sexes can express "virtues" the same way....it does not necessarily come under the heading of chivalry......but rather one of simply being considerate towards one another.
 Inner_circle
Joined: 7/11/2015
Msg: 5
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/21/2019 8:44:55 AM
Depends on the level of chivalry...a woman will have always felt compelled to jump in front of a bullet for her child, but as has been pointed out above, there hasn't been a time in history when men needed the same level of protection (except from other men for the most part).

Nowadays people are raising either gender to open/hold doors and other softer forms of chivalry.
 Kokanee_Ice
Joined: 2/16/2019
Msg: 6
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/21/2019 9:15:54 AM

there hasn't been a time in history when men needed the same level of protection (except from other men for the most part).


There are exceptions to everything - there are strong women and there are weak men. Who do you think would win in a fight between a female mma fighter and an average man? I’d bet on the female mma fighter.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 7
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/21/2019 11:30:06 AM

Nowadays people are raising either gender to open/hold doors and other softer forms of chivalry.

I don't think people are 'raising' people at all. Having single parents or both required to work has been happening for the last 40-50 years, so people 'learn' from what they encounter or watch on TV. Suffice it to say the lack of a "Mr Rodgers Neighborhood" show teaching morality and the decline of shows like "Sesame Street" teaching kids to read means they have learned their life lessons from Spongebob and Grand Theft Auto video games. We have massive numbers of the population still clinging to an entitlement philosophy because parents who had money - but who couldn't afford the time to spend with their kids - threw money and gifts at the 'problem' and blamed others instead of trying to accept responsibility and find another way.

Humility is disappearing, making chivalry - true chivalry - more rare as well. People have learned to fake it, which makes things worse.
Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/22/2019 9:31:17 AM
"can they be chivalrous in other ways? "

>>>watch a mother take care of her child. you may find the answer. on a side note, i've had married mothers in my car. when i went to open the door for them to ride shotgun, most have exclaimed, "wow, i can't remember the last time someone did that for me!" so,has their husband of years...forgotten how to be chivalrous?

women who truly love me, will look out for the details i miss in life. wipe a food crumb off the corner of my mouth, for instance. is that chivalry? originally the rules of chivalry was for teenagers who were knights, and acting like kids with weapons and military training. jousting tournaments were also for the same reason.
 Inner_circle
Joined: 7/11/2015
Msg: 9
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/22/2019 10:28:51 AM
To me this doesn't quantify as a time in history. Its current days in my opinion. And yes, there have always been small pockets of exceptions...this is life.



There are exceptions to everything - there are strong women and there are weak men. Who do you think would win in a fight between a female mma fighter and an average man? I’d bet on the female mma fighter.
 Inner_circle
Joined: 7/11/2015
Msg: 10
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/22/2019 10:33:14 AM
We can only speak for ourselves and I raised my son. My friends and families, raised their children. I don't spend time with people who think tv is a good way to raise children. There are plenty of others like me too, we just don't make the front page of the newspaper, people would rather see a trainwreck on the news then what ordinary folks are grinding out every day.


I don't think people are 'raising' people at all. Having single parents or both required to work has been happening for the last 40-50 years, so people 'learn' from what they encounter or watch on TV. Suffice it to say the lack of a "Mr Rodgers Neighborhood" show teaching morality and the decline of shows like "Sesame Street" teaching kids to read means they have learned their life lessons from Spongebob and Grand Theft Auto video games. We have massive numbers of the population still clinging to an entitlement philosophy because parents who had money - but who couldn't afford the time to spend with their kids - threw money and gifts at the 'problem' and blamed others instead of trying to accept responsibility and find another way.
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
Msg: 11
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/23/2019 6:43:15 AM
Do you get loads of women sending you pics of their genitals? Calling you a slag for not wanting to meet them? Saying you're ugly coz you won't interact sexually with them?

No?

I think we know exactly why men needed a whole set of manners introduced to their gender.

That first sentence also explains why flashing was made illegal.
 Kokanee_Ice
Joined: 2/16/2019
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/23/2019 9:43:01 AM

To me this doesn't quantify as a time in history. Its current days in my opinion. And yes, there have always been small pockets of exceptions...this is life.


There have always been marriages where the woman was the more abusive partner. This is well-documented in medieval England. The difference was that men were publicly shamed for allowing their wives to beat them.


Do you get loads of women sending you pics of their genitals? Calling you a slag for not wanting to meet them? Saying you're ugly coz you won't interact sexually with them?


No, but I got messages from naked female bots saying, “Hey there;”. The only way I could get rid of them was to set a 50-character restriction on first messages.
 Kokanee_Ice
Joined: 2/16/2019
Msg: 13
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/23/2019 11:29:16 AM
It was my experience when I was younger, in my 20’s, that younger women will ignore the guy who’s polite and isn’t sexually aggressive. Most women eventually grow out of the phase of dating bad boys when they realize that their lives are all fvcked up became of it.
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
Msg: 14
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/24/2019 6:02:12 PM
I think when women are younger they tend to want a confident guy, or someone charming, but don't realise many guys use these traits to con women. I've never liked charmers, they always came across as smarmy to me. But mostly all youthful people tend to been seen as attractive on the whole just for being young so the 'competition' is high. When you get older you'll see that women have tended to figure out the con-men from the decent and are less likely to be fooled. Then most people (men) become less attractive as they age, whereas women tend to become more attractive somehow.Not sure why, and this is a generalisation, but this really tends to happen. Dunno if it's down to women becoming more confident as they age?

Most women want someone attractive for sure. What their idea of attractive may be can be many things but just being polite isn't one trait alone that tends to cause someone to be attractive, it usually has to be part of a whole package.

I was thinking the other day that womens chivalry was things like becoming a 'lady' and walking with books on her head, knowing how to use cutlery, all useless stuff really that implied she had a good up bringing.

Tbh both have petered out haven't they? I like that they have, people can be free to be ***holes and we can choose to shun them or not and people can be polite with the understanding that it means nothing and won't get you anywhere or respected.
 curvylady1965
Joined: 12/31/2017
Msg: 15
Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/24/2019 6:26:45 PM
^^^ feirene, I am the only person I know (I mainly know women, mind you) who finds that men become less attractive as they age. All my female friends hold on to the adage about men getting more character or something like that. Interesting there appears to be two of us on the planet who see things differently from the masses!
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/25/2019 5:23:37 AM
It's not just me @Curvylady1965 Loads of women i know tend to think this. Could be a UK thing?
There's the occassional silver fox here and there but mostly women here see that men tend not to age well, doesn't help a lot of them take 10 years off their age so appear haggard for their 'age'. I think we have a lot of man babies here too, once they have no partner they really let themselves go...other way round for me i've got fat now i'm in a relationship lol.
 curvylady1965
Joined: 12/31/2017
Msg: 17
Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/25/2019 6:05:31 AM
It could be a UK thing... more evidence I've been hatched in the wrong place lol. And agree with you re: how taking 10 years off their age doesn't help.
 Spectrallight
Joined: 9/14/2018
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/25/2019 9:21:20 AM

It's not just me @Curvylady1965 Loads of women i know tend to think this. Could be a UK thing?
There's the occassional silver fox here and there but mostly women here see that men tend not to age well, doesn't help a lot of them take 10 years off their age so appear haggard for their 'age'. I think we have a lot of man babies here too, once they have no partner they really let themselves go...other way round for me i've got fat now i'm in a relationship lol.


Its a good thing that you feel that comfortable. To be fair. I'm my experience. Women find a man, date, diet a bit, hook him then they fill out because they feel content :) Unless they are a gym bunny as they call it. But sometimes they pounds do go on.

Older women(50+) prefer my salt pepper as it makes them feel younger. But younger like it dyed.

I still hold a door open for a woman when going in and out of shops etc within reason. It's just autopilot. Throw a cheeky grin, and they like it. You could meet your partner this way. first impressions count.

No harm in manners. Can I remember women holding doors for men? Not so much. But can't expect women with kids , a buggy and shopping to be even remotely thinking about a door. A good few times the young en's hold it for you. I always make sure to be really grateful to the little en's. By saying thank you young Man/Lady and making a little deal of it.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 19
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/25/2019 10:29:38 AM
"I think when women are younger they tend to want a confident guy, or someone charming, but don't realise many guys use these traits to con women. "

>>>growing up in a farming community that didn't see sex as a moral problem. i noticed that young women overwhelmingly preferred....physically attractive men. they impressed their female friends, which solidified their social standing, and they figured out in a society that worships beauty, snagging an attractive male suggests one must be worthy of the prize. they may not have known enough about confidence to know its difference from c0ckiness, but for sure, the young man who got chased after by the aggressive girls since kindergarden, has some confidence that he won't get rejected often by girls who socialize often with him. now, in their immaturity, many of these lads did indeed, take what was offered on a silver platter for granted.

and the less attractive boys with great personality? well, of course, there's always room for another friend. a boy may not be able to play football with his female friends, but a lass can probably take a boy who fancies her shopping or to some other activity.
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/26/2019 2:42:46 AM

Its a good thing that you feel that comfortable. To be fair. I'm my experience. Women find a man, date, diet a bit, hook him then they fill out because they feel content :) Unless they are a gym bunny as they call it. But sometimes they pounds do go on.

Older women(50+) prefer my salt pepper as it makes them feel younger. But younger like it dyed.

I still hold a door open for a woman when going in and out of shops etc within reason. It's just autopilot. Throw a cheeky grin, and they like it. You could meet your partner this way. first impressions count.

No harm in manners. Can I remember women holding doors for men? Not so much. But can't expect women with kids , a buggy and shopping to be even remotely thinking about a door. A good few times the young en's hold it for you. I always make sure to be really grateful to the little en's. By saying thank you young Man/Lady and making a little deal of it.


I'm eating better, he's a good cook. :)

And you walk through doors backwards with a buggy i learned, push it open with your butt and manouvre in with all the kids. I used to use a lot of public transport when they were little and always was grateful for help then, with stairs or someone grabbing a toddler or two while i got the baby/babies out of the pram.

My oldest son used to hold the door open when he was little and used to get upset coz no-one thanked him, i just told him he doesn't have to hold the door open if he doesn't want to. Best one was when my disabled son was putting rubbish in a bin at a cafe and that was behind the door, this woman came in with a pram and trapped him there and then started whinging that nobody had helped her with the door...
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/26/2019 2:44:53 AM

It could be a UK thing... more evidence I've been hatched in the wrong place lol. And agree with you re: how taking 10 years off their age doesn't help.


Dunno what it is but there's not a lot of metrosexuality in my circles, could be a working class thing.
 Kokanee_Ice
Joined: 2/16/2019
Msg: 22
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/26/2019 3:26:49 AM
There is scientific evidence that women do age faster than men. Men have thicker skin which is less prone to wrinkles and facial hair that helps to protect skin from sun damage. Of course there are always exceptions. In my area it seems like there’s a lack of good-looking women in their 40’s who date online.

Younger women tend to be less mature - that’s why choose bad boys. I never dated in high school, but every bully who ever came after me had a girlfriend.
Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/26/2019 8:11:06 AM
Chivalry was /is a myth. It was an ideal intended to infuse the (western) world with a religious dimension. The female pillar of this concept was the ideal of "courtly love." That was the love that was practiced from afar. The knight was supposed to sublimate his love in religious leanings by going to war (in the Crusades) or quest for another religious purpose (the Holy Grail), in order to show his unconsummated devotion to the object of his spiritually pure desire (she could even be a woman, married to someone else). Pope Urban II pronounced that any knight fighting for the First Crusade would be exonerated from the sin of killing, as long as they followed his rules.

Knights functioned as the secular arm of the Church during the Crusades, and as such they were bound by the code of honor given to the crusaders by Pope Urban II in 1095. This gave rise to the idea of the "Code of Chivalry." Every crusader had to "swear to defend to his uttermost the weak, the orphan, the widow and the oppressed; he should be courteous, and women should receive his especial care. Thus to his bravery and love of adventure, the knight was enjoined to add gentler qualities" (Swettenham, 26).


I think this was more a case of the Pope trying to distance himself from the horrors of the Crusades, which were particularly barbaric, with some Crusaders accused of cannibalism. At least the Pope could say he told them to "play nice."

Anyway, this appears to be just another thinly veiled rant (b!tch fest) about how the mating process is so unfair toward men, combined with the observation that men ultimately have it better in the end, since women are apparently more prone to exhibiting the ravages of time (gloating by men who wrinkle less, but die sooner, presumably looking younger than women ).

So, if men look better longer, suck it up, dudes.

We have to spend more on Botox, I guess.

Yanno, this theme goes along with the combined b!tching / gloating I see on here from so many guys - they b!tch because women on here won't date short, bald, fat, broke, etc. guys, yet they "gloat" that they "see the same women on here for years," the implication being that the women are failing to find a date, so they should lower their expectations.

So here is my question:

How do these rejects know the women are STILL on the site?

I get that you can tell from the member ID approximately how long ago someone created a profile, but I know I have abandoned a few profiles on other sites when I closed an old email account (aol) and could no longer change/access my forgotten password.

Is there a way guys can be sure these old profiles that keep popping up in their searches are still active?

Just asking, because I keep seeing this tired old recurring cliché (women need to lower the bar,because they aren't getting dates, based on some loser's observations of their old profiles) repeated over and over by guys who most often complain of no response (which could mean the profile was long ago abandoned).

Actually, this doesn't seem to reflect as badly on the woman as on the guy she is rejecting, because the implication is that she would rather die alone than date him. Hmmm ...

BTW Women often practice chivalry; opening doors, helping the weak (our role is usually caregiver for the young, elderly and infirm), wet nursing babies for centuries, most recently donating milk to La Leche. Men aren't doing that. We had a snowstorm Friday night, and I had an engagement downtown on Saturday. I noticed a woman having trouble crossing the street, so gave her my arm, and provided support until we reached a dry sidewalk. She thanked me. That is chivalry. Anyone can do it.
Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/26/2019 12:56:46 PM
Back to the OP's real agenda:

Why can't I find a woman who doesn't expect me to pay?

There used to be a guy on here named paderic. Jayzus!! He went on for years about women feeling entitled. He wanted to find a woman who paid her share. Guess what? He did!
His tone changed and he left the site, apparently happy.
Here is an old post of his:

Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 99
1st meeting
Posted: 10/16/2013 12:37 :59 PM


It's not the amount of money that's the issue it's the effort he puts forth to invest in me (time, energy and when we go out I expect him to pay at least most of the time).

This goes both ways. Using your metric, you're clearly demonstrating a lack of effort that you're willing to invest in him.

These discussions are always good for a laugh. Nobody has ever been able to explain the logic behind women who measure a man's interest by how much and how willingly he spends money on her, but then insist that they aren't interested in his money. Sorry, but that just doesn't scrub.

The first thing I want to know about a woman is whether her interest is in me as a person, or me as a wallet. Any woman who would call me cheap because I didn't fall all over myself to pay for her cup of coffee gets classified as the latter. My aversion to being someone's meal ticket is just as strong.

https://forums.plentyoffish.com/15674652datingPostpage4.aspx

Sooo, just find a woman that has/pays her own. The problem is that a lot of guys want the diva/princess type, and those can often fall in the camp of feeling entitled. Try a low maintenance type gal. There are women out there who don't have a problem with paying their own way. Many have good jobs. BUT, they are looking for an equal who also has a good job.

Your biggest issue is that you are "on the dole," have fantasized about moving to Sweden (where the benefits are higher for you), and just have no way to even properly take care of yourself. If you are looking for an equal, you should not have a hard time, but you may have to come down a cup size or two.

From the thread: Women always wanting men quite taller than them
Msg: 65 My last partner had DDD’s. After her, I could never go back to dating a woman with a C-cup size.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 25
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Does a female version of chivalry exist?
Posted: 2/26/2019 1:08:23 PM

It was my experience when I was younger, in my 20’s, that younger women will ignore the guy who’s polite and isn’t sexually aggressive. Most women eventually grow out of the phase of dating bad boys when they realize that their lives are all fvcked up became of it.

Side note: I don't think it's a generational thing. The only thing I noticed with today vs other generations is among the Attractive/pretty gals' tastes via social changes, variance on style / types is more accepted, to a certain degree. Kind of like that 21 Jump Street remake where they go back to high school but notice that things aren't so cut-n-dry like the "nerd table" and "jock table" -- and they're confused in the beginning.

With that aside, I will agree & possibly disagree with part of your statement though: Notably the Attractive gals, notably when younger, who get a lot of attention, are not going to gravitate toward politeness. Of course most every guy who wants her (many) are going to naturally going to go from all out a$$-kissing to clear politeness. That's a dime a dozen. Easy catch. Attractive people gravitate more toward what they can't quite have (as do people in general). I wouldn't say they want a guy who is in fact sexually aggressive -- it's more they don't want a guy who's seemingly sexually passive. Put notable politeness on that -- stick a fork in it, you're done, Billy. And that's not just for notably attractive gals, either.

Who do you think would win in a fight between a female mma fighter and an average man? I’d bet on the female mma fighter.

Definitely. Or a better built guy who doesn't know how to fight and an average guy who knows pretty well how to fight. It's one of the greater overlooked things. Instead though, in the dating world -- it's about the FEELING. :)

I think what keeps "chivalry" alive and the desire for it to some degree -- is to have a good experience. The opposite direction of "gawd I hate dating". Brings something positive into it -- something "new" with a smile -- definitely refreshing from their ex after getting out of a boring or exhausting relationship. So it digs into classic (exaggerated / BASED on a true story but not fully true) "history". And that's why guys can like it too, if their finances are fine & the dating scene isn't frustrating to them.

The reason why I wouldn't reflexively like female chivalry bestowed upon myself -- is because I would think something's up if it stuck out. Hmmm. She's opening all these doors for me... wants to drive, and opens her passenger door for me... buys dinner as she turns down my offer to even contribute... made the first call to me in the beginning to ask Me out. Okay, Twilight Zone? Lol. My response would be "Okay, you had me at first-call. I'm a guy. I know you're interested. Welcome to my world! ... Speaking of my world, wanna come back to my place for a roll in the hey-hey-hey?"
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