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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 1
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
i confess i have not read the entire 1433 page report. i haven't even completely read the 80 page summary. but in listening to cbc radio programs and people's commentary and the various political parties' spins on the report....there really isn't anything new or damning.

we all knew the scandal was bad. we all knew the kickbacks were in evidence per testimony. we knew the highest levels of chretien's administration were involved. but frankly, i don't think it's the biggest political scandal in canadian history. there are plenty of scandals in this country's short history - since 1867 we've had lots to complain about and plenty of misappropriation of funds.

frankly, as a younger canadian taxpayer and voter (i'm 31), i have to say my political apathy continues to grow. here we have our gov't with party members that had something to do with a huge fraud perpetrated on the canadian people and involving tax payer's hard earned monies. on the other hand, the only real opposition is a hardline conservative who would ask peace loving canadians to jump in bed with a war mongering administration down south, and a right wing approach to issues related to minorities, civil liberties and the social welfare net.

it's not that i don't like our neighbour to the south - we have an extensive trade relationship and many other ties. in times of crises, we of course would stand by them - ie. 9/11, and katrina are just recent examples. but the majority of canadians don't want to go to war in iraq and that's what the one option to the liberals means to us.

on the other hand, while i like the ndp as an opposition - in power they would be a disaster. they don't have a very good history of fiscal management, spending far too much on social programs and not balancing gov't income with expenditures. so i'd like to see layton perhaps as opposition but not as the new gov't.

so what does that leave me? the bloc quebecois? well, i don't have a candidate of this national party actually running in bc. nor do they run in alberta, saskatchewan and manitoba. they also don't have candidates running in the maritimes or up north. so much for a national party, eh?

so given the Gomery report exonerates paul martin, and there are, to me, no other choices....better the devil you know than the devil you are afraid of.....
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 2
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 5:32:32 PM
I feel your pain singlemaltgirl; I'd vote Bloc if they were running a candidate here. If the Tories threatened to jail Mulroney I'd vote for them. But they have a history of corruption in power that makes these guys look like pikers. I don't know, my local MP is good even if he is a Tory, so I'll support him while holding my nose.
 alienboy
Joined: 9/10/2004
Msg: 3
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 6:04:22 PM
dmotz39, this is one of the worst scandals in recent memory... and yet nobody died, no treason was commited, no securtity was breached, and it doesn't affect any other nation besides Canada.

As for Impeaching Chretien, you're a little late. He's long gone. Paul Martin is Prime Minister now.


Posted By: dmotz39 on 11/1/2005 652 PM

You mean to tell me that Canada is not the pure shining light of the world? .Wow
And to think some Canadians are in here crying about the U.S.A while they have their own imperfections to worry about, I say Impeach Chretien! . He`s gotta go.. I will start the ball rolling here in the good ol U.S
 Musikmaster
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 4
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 11:42:50 PM
Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 5
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:14:46 AM
musik - i agree partly with the sentiment that you so eloquently detailed. i just recall that martin was already falling out of favour with chretien in the last couple of years of chretien's administration. he was actually replaced as finance minister despite being exceptionally good (or better than his predecessors) at balancing the budget and putting the country on good financial footing - this DESPITE chretien's sponsorship program.

so while i don't exonerate him completely, again i look to the choices offered. if gomery exonerates martin, then i can see this coming election (in the spring) maintaining the liberals in ottawa.

my problem is, i have no choices. harper could be running for the republican nomination if only he'd been born in the us. i don't have anything against layton - i think he's done a great job of balancing canadian needs with this minority gov't - providing a check to liberal overconfidence (dare i say arrogance?). but the ndp are traditionally a little too generous with social spending, tied to unions and fiscally bad business managers. i don't want to see our deficits grow exponentially - i remember those days and don't want to see them again.

yes i remember tories and their record of gov't. the mulroney administration was a travesty on the canadian people - the GST, meech and charlottetown....hell, does anyone remember airbus?!?!?!?!

i can understand voter apathy. what's a canadian voter supposed to do?
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 6
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:18:23 AM
halftime - if your local MP is good than that makes the choice a bit easier i suppose. but perhaps i'm just too cynical but every MP is see is simply going to tow the party line when it comes to their party making up the next gov't.

but you and i seem to share the same frustration. glad to hear i'm not alone. i'm just sorry that we don't have options.

perhaps the maintaining a coalition is the best bet - i don't want the liberals to get a majority. they don't deserve it. and i think the ndp is a good counter balance for them. i'd like to see a true coalition gov't between the liberals and ndp. that probably is the best we can hope for in this country given what we have to choose from.
 Musikmaster
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 7
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:49:16 AM

what's a canadian voter supposed to do?

Vote for the Green Party.


Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!! And the current Boss.
Do you really believe he was like Sargent Schultz? A "I know Nothinnng!" lackie
Or did Gommery not want to ruffle the bear's fur?
I don't think you get to be Prime Minister if you're a "I know Nothinnng!" lackie.

At least, someone discussing this topic is intelligent and sensible!

As for the attitude of 'everybody does it' or 'there's no other choices.' Don't be so pathetic! That is an attitude a little kid would have. It's grade school! Indeed, there are slim choices and any choice is better than re-electing the Liberals. How much incentive do you need? Just admit that you don't care about ethics or your money (and other people's money) being stolen. You don't care about corruption, greed and people being shafted. But, don't give the B.S. that there's no choices at all (a choice is to not vote which means not voting for the Liberals!) or that everyone is the same so you might as well vote for the Liberals.

Also, when the Liberals had a majority, they arguably were the most corrupt party in Canadian history when you go by their scandals and the seriousness in scope of them. You sure don't keep rewarding them. At least, the other parties will know they'd being watched carefully if they got in. The Liberals don't care what they do; they just try to not get caught.
 Musikmaster
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 8
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 9:22:50 AM
Hah, exactly. Well, if you knew where to look, you would already know before the report, that he would be exonerated. The report as far as Martin goes really is redundant because it was already known before it even came out what would be said and that he'd get no blame. It's a sham.
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 9
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 4:07:52 PM
musik - sorry i fail to live up to your ideas of what is sensible and intelligent. perhaps you should skip over my posts since they must seem like so much dribble to you.

as for anyone interested in actually discussing this topic without stifling others ability to share their opinions....

i did not actually post anything about the green party which is a viable party national in scope (at least a hell of a lot more national than the bloc). so just ruminating out loud -

the green party is unproven in gov't. both a negative and a positive. they've never had an opportunity to be corrupt = positive; this doesn't automatically indicate they wouldn't be corrupt = not so positive. they haven't had the chance to govern or even act as opposition and do i really want someone inexperienced running my country? i think their party name is a misnomer and does them a disservice - they are not simply environmentalists. while i don't think i'd want them to be ruling, they make an interesting option in lieu of the ndp and the conservatives.

i don't think that the liberal party is the most corrupt party in canada's history - there is plenty of evidence to indicate otherwise. i do believe their majority gave them carte blanche to do some horrid things and that's why i don't believe that any one gov't should be given a majority like the one we gave to chretien in 1993. there must be a valid national opposition to whatever party rules. i still think the choices are pretty pathetic.
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 10
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 4:15:09 PM
trewq

Ah and this is the real crime in our culture, gettin caught.
What has happened to morals and honour?:-(


i agree - what has happened to our morals and honour? i think the corruption of politicians (a long standing history of corruption) from the municipal all the way to the federal ranks has made us apathetic. is no one in gov't capable of standing up for ethics and the laws of governance? from where i stand, no one is.

and then people wonder about canadian's voter apathy.....
 Musikmaster
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 11
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/3/2005 9:57:04 AM
Well, I'm trashing the Libs as they're the ones in office. I hate it when people just shrug it off by saying X party and Y party are just as bad. That is just apathetic excuse-making. They might be as bad but that idea breeds apathy and tolerance.

Maltgirl asked for opinions and I gave one and she happens to not like it. How can you not be tired of excuse-makers, both the politicians and the people who voted for them? Yeah, she has no sense and neither does anyone else who votes for the Liberals after all they've done. They deserve to lose all of their power and political positions no matter what. The lying is still going on. It's absurd and makes no sense when you really think about Martin claiming he had no knowledge and the Gomery report finding Martin exonerated is pure bogus as well. People put up with too much crap and that's why the BS happens so easily.
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 12
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/3/2005 2:20:58 PM
musik -
Maltgirl asked for opinions and I gave one and she happens to not like it. How can you not be tired of excuse-makers, both the politicians and the people who voted for them? Yeah, she has no sense


it wasn't the opinion i took exception to, it was the implied insult to anyone who didn't share your opinion that i objected to. in fact, if you read some of the other posts of people who agree with you, you'll notice i didn't take exception to what they said. i started the thread to invite discourse. telling me i have no sense is not discourse - it's insulting me b/c you don't like my opinion. attack the argument not the poster.

and you keep implying that i voted liberal in the last election and intend to this election. when did i say who i voted for or plan on voting for? i do vote and have in every election i have been eligible to do so - but most often i spoil my ballot by writing in, "none of the above". it's my right to vote and i believe in it. it's a shame it doesn't result in much but it's my one legal act of defiance that i can exercise. so many people in this world die for that right.

trewq - i'm all for a lottery that chooses who can run in a riding - say 5 lucky individuals per riding get selected. any eligible voter is eligible for the lottery. all they have to do is provide 100 signatures from other eligible voters and in they go. then we can vote from the choices available to us. anything for electoral reform that will do away with this antiquated party system of mostly privileged out of touch corrupt politicians would be a good thing.
 Musikmaster
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 13
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 7:44:06 AM

it wasn't the opinion i took exception to, it was the implied insult to anyone who didn't share your opinion that i objected to. in fact, if you read some of the other posts of people who agree with you, you'll notice i didn't take exception to what they said. i started the thread to invite discourse. telling me i have no sense is not discourse - it's insulting me b/c you don't like my opinion. attack the argument not the poster.

No, wrong. What you're implying is a common fallacy. You used colourful words and expressions like 'attack' and 'attack the poster.' My entire argument is about 'the Liberals AND people who vote for the Liberals!!! Understand yet? If you are not voting for them, then my most sincere apologies. I know that my position will be considered insulting! But, it's a rational opinion. Hopefully, after thinking about it for a while, you will come to the same conclusion.
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 14
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 8:55:24 AM
on the other hand, while i like the ndp as an opposition - in power they would be a disaster. they don't have a very good history of fiscal management, spending far too much on social programs and not balancing gov't income with expenditures. so i'd like to see layton perhaps as opposition but not as the new gov't.


They have recently hired financial Executives to assure that the above would not happen. Jack Layton also ran "The Corporation of the City of Toronto" for quite some time.



halftime - if your local MP is good than that makes the choice a bit easier i suppose. but perhaps i'm just too cynical but every MP is see is simply going to tow the party line when it comes to their party making up the next gov't


We are lucky here in KW; our MPS have a history of looking after our interests AND/WHILE holding a strong position in cabinet. (I.e. Karen Redman) ;) Even Ms. Whitmer, for the PCs, looked after her people while contributing to party lines. (of course; she ran into trouble once PC Educational policies were changed...but hey..that also sunk her)

I don't think you get to be Prime Minister if you're a "I know Nothinnng!" lackie.


"Lackie" nothing; Mr. Martin.....was the "competition" sir. "Alpha" position was being warred over.

Just admit that you don't care about ethics or your money (and other people's money) being stolen. You don't care about corruption, greed and people being shafted. But, don't give the B.S. that there's no choices at all (a choice is to not vote which means not voting for the Liberals!) or that everyone is the same so you might as well vote for the Liberals.


Harsh truth......but truth indeed. The comments that these are addressed to really did come down to the above mentioned.

I hate it when people just shrug it off by saying X party and Y party are just as bad. That is just apathetic excuse-making.


Agreed. HAs the NDP been moiled in scandal? (no)
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 15
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 11:26:07 AM

spoiling your ballot with "purpose" sends a message


Joining any given ppolitical party..take your poic..flip a coin..and MAKING a difference.....MAKING CHANGES sends a bigger message..

DUDE.
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 16
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 12:03:58 PM
One of the misconceptions of our culture is that "The Cream always rises to the top'?
The truth is that the scum rises to the top.


the truth sir..is actually..

both.


But I am a trusting honest person and when put among experienced and motivated Back Stabbers, I will get my Back Stabbed


And a few blades can take you down that fast?

"Go with the flow, FLOW AS YOU GO" ;)

 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 17
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/7/2005 2:32:21 PM
frrosty
Joining any given ppolitical party..take your poic..flip a coin..and MAKING a difference.....MAKING CHANGES sends a bigger message..

DUDE.


i know you are an idealist but if you really think that canadian voters (who can barely get themselves to the polls) will really put themselves out there and get involved in politics, then you are truly deluding yourself. do you realize the amount of time and effort it would take to just get involved, much less institute change within our current political system? most canadians don't have the time or feel able to deal with party reform, much less electoral reform. period. and if you were hinting that perhaps we should run ourselves if we don't like the people elected....i don't have the financial resources to do so. most canadians don't.

certified - appreciate your comments about the election act and how spoiled ballots are defined and treated. i realize spoiling your ballot doesn't count as a vote of no confidence in the various parties. but if canadian voters feel compelled to vote (it is a right after all) then spoiling my ballot is my way of saying i don't like any of them. i don't trust any of them. and even if i am the only one who knows how i voted, then so be it. at least i went out to vote. almost half of this country doesn't.
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 18
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/7/2005 2:50:03 PM
Just admit that you don't care about ethics or your money (and other people's money) being stolen. You don't care about corruption, greed and people being shafted. But, don't give the B.S. that there's no choices at all (a choice is to not vote which means not voting for the Liberals!) or that everyone is the same so you might as well vote for the Liberals.

Harsh truth......but truth indeed. The comments that these are addressed to really did come down to the above mentioned.


you can care about ethics or your own money and corruption and greed and people getting shafted and still vote for the liberals, conservatives, ndp, bloc, etc. canadians have forked over their tax dollars for decades and continue to do so to politicians who waste their money, embroil themselves in scandal and do idiotic things. do we stop paying taxes? do we sue the gov't? nope. but we still care about how much of our public monies are allocated and will often vote out a gov't that does not spend dollars on things we consider most important - healthcare being right up there. if we were an unethical people, why the hell would we care if the poorest of the poor have access to appropriate healthcare? why would we maintain a social welfare system at all? let it be a free for all where corruption and greed dictate where the money goes...

canadians are ethical for the most part. they do care about corruption and greed and people getting shafted. but canadians also have to work to feed their families, put a roof over their heads, and maintain their ability to live a good quality of life. sometimes, putting your head down to the grindstone and you simply cannot enact change enough to fight the corruption in gov't or corporate greed, etc. at some point, you do abdicate responsibility - we all do.

if musik and frrosty are so much more incensed than other canadian voters, so disgusted by corruption and greed, i wonder what the both of you might be doing to enact that change more than the average canadian voter? so much so that you feel you can criticize others for not doing more....then tell me please how what you're doing is actually working?
 Musikmaster
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 19
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/7/2005 11:44:49 PM

but if canadian voters feel compelled to vote (it is a right after all) then spoiling my ballot is my way of saying i don't like any of them.

Well said. No argument here.

But then, you say this:

you can care about ethics or your own money and corruption and greed and people getting shafted and still vote for the liberals, conservatives, ndp, bloc, etc.


No, you can't. You're either against corruption/unethical behavior or you feel indifferent. You either vote for a different party or the Liberals.


they do care about corruption and greed and people getting shafted.

No, they don't. Not if they're re-electing the Liberal Party. The Liberal Party needs to be voted out and a major overhaul. They need to get rid of many of their members and generate an entire new generation of politicians.


i wonder what the both of you might be doing to enact that change more than the average canadian voter?

By myself? I can't do much. However, my part in NOT voting for the Liberals is something. I will likely vote for the Greens. I don't care if people say it's a 'wasted vote.' If everyone always has that attitude, then we'd be stuck with the old style parties forever and then 'nothing would ever work' and there would be no possibility of change at all.

I'm quite cynical. I don't really think anyone can do a whole helluva lot. The system is a reflection of society as a whole but that's another topic.
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 20
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/8/2005 10:14:19 PM
but if you really think that canadian voters (who can barely get themselves to the polls) will really put themselves out there and get involved in politics, then you are truly deluding yourself.


Hoi? You mean nobody is IN politics!!??

um...EEK!! Who are those people in the commons then!!??

*scratches head*

EEK!! GHOSTS!!

do you realize the amount of time and effort it would take to just get involved, much less institute change within our current political system?


You really really have no clue. My answer dear is....

yes; I do.

if musik and frrosty are so much more incensed than other canadian voters


Pardon me?

then tell me please how what you're doing is actually working?


LMAO...you wish.
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 21
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/9/2005 8:45:10 AM
frrosty - most canadians believe their elected representatives are corrupt for the most part. these are the same canadians who keep electing those people in the commons (or spoil their ballots in disgust). so the majority of canadians are NOT in politics - even if you were to add all those voters who contribute and have a m'ship card within any current canadian party you will still have a minority of canadians involved in politics. apathy, disgust, the feeling that they cannot enact any change...may all be reasons why more canadians aren't involved. but the fact is the majority of canadian voters are not IN politics.

and if you truly realized the amount of time and resources required to be IN politics (as you say you do), you would also be fairly understanding of the fact that the vast majority of canadians voters neither have the time or resources to enact real substantive change to the party and electoral system. you wouldn't be offering a flippant "flip a coin, join a party....etc." to frustrated canadian voters... asking them to do that is almost as effective as spoiling your ballot, don't you think?
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 22
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/10/2005 7:28:03 PM
you wouldn't be offering a flippant "flip a coin, join a party....etc." to frustrated canadian voters... asking them to do that is almost as effective as spoiling your ballot, don't you think?




No.

Mine is a pro-active move. Yours is a rejection of Government period.

(very different in fact)

that the vast majority of canadians voters neither have the time or resources to enact real substantive change to the party and electoral system.


That is why "the collective" is so important.

Maltgirl? WHat would YOU have the Canadian people do to change things for the better? Are you hinting that we should just say good bye to Government period? Tell Ottawa that we do not want anyone in charge? I hear whining; but no solutions. (sorry; but it's very true)
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 23
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/14/2005 12:51:13 PM
frrosty - no i'm not out for anarchy. the corruption of our current politicians remains far preferable to a state without gov't.

i agree, it was a whine and a rant....i'm frustrated and don't see change evolving from the "collective" b/c i don't think there is enough in the collective able to make the change necessary. i'm resigned as are most canadians....

i appreciate your desire to want things to be better, all canadians i think do want what you want, including me. and i appreciate your idealism. it's just that i'm a realist now. i was much like you in believing in collective change back in my university days....and exhausted myself with the effort of trying to help effect that change. nothing happened and now i'm cynical and old...
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 24
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/15/2005 10:18:29 AM
hey dapi

i didn't mean to imply that i was putting frrosty down for his idealism. a few posts back i found some of his suggestions flippant...but if he really believes in change and doing something to make that change, good on him.

as for the political parties of canada - you've pretty summed up all my feelings about the libs, conservatives and ndpers....

it sounds like you are looking for machiavelli. i don't think he exists in canada.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 25
view profile
History
Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/15/2005 11:42:52 AM
it figures,...

then again just because he's legally exonerated doesn't mean he's innocent,....

just like Michael Jackson's innocent verdict doesn't (probably) say the whole truth either,..

Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?