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 AUTHOR
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 1
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The Purpose Driven Lie?Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
The success of Mega Churches like Willow Creek and Saddleback have influenced tons of Churches across the USA to try and follow their example. Blueprints for Church growth and to make the local Church "user friendly" have created clone Churches. Most any Church you walk into is studying the Purpose Driven Life or whatever else is popular on the Christian Best seller list. Some critics of this movement have questioned whether this movement is from God or from the dark side of the force. You can go to Church now anyway you choose. The important thing is for you to feel comfortable. Perhaps next up is vendors walking up and down the isles during service selling red hots. What is your take on it?
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 2
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/25/2006 8:36:53 AM
I don't know if you deliberately typed "the purpose drive lie" or meant to type "the purpose drive LIFE," but the purpose of the church is to feed God's flock not to entertain the goats. I know that statement will infuriate most people, but it is true. Worshipping the true and living God corporately and publicly is our greatest privilege. God is the one who adds to the church those who are being saved.

These mega-churches that try to get people to make a public profession of faith or say some believer's prayer are doing their members a disservice. It is not the PROFESSION of faith that saves. It is the POSSESSION of faith that saves. Anyone can make a profession of faith, and most professions of faith made during the altar call are made because emotions run high and people are urged to come forward and profess their faith. FEELINGS are not FAITH. Singing some mindless praise song over and over again induces people to make these spurious professions of faith. How many of these new "members" are actually living a Christian life even two years later? Very few.

I know my opinions are not popular. True saving faith is the gift of God not something that is worked up by human emotions in a packed arena when a preacher is shouting at the top of his lungs. All these people who make these professions of faith come into these churches to find things such as marriage counselling, classes in financial management, find friends for their children, make friends, maybe become involved in a music program, etc. This may be okay, but what people need is to be taught and to grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. You can look long and hard to find someone who actually shares your faith because people go to church for various reasons, and a lot of them don't go to church because they love God.
 proverbsgirl
Joined: 9/10/2006
Msg: 3
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/25/2006 4:43:25 PM
Can you recommend a good church? I am in a small (40-ish) church that is "run" by a couple of families-know what I mean?? Everybody has an opinion on others' business-So Annoying!! I am getting tired and those goats, as you call them seem so much nicer!! Do you know I get more interested men on this secular site (am on 6 favorite lists) then on Christian sites...those believers Are SOOO fussy!(after 3 months, not One hit!!Not one email!)

It seems men my age want 20-years olds, barely childlike brides with pre-teen bodies-maybe they feel like they would be in bed with a bosom-less young boy!!. Not that they are anything to look at!! And unemployed, too...Secular men seem much more accepting of the ravages of age!!

Andcanitbe, did you know that the chubby Costanza type even thinks he is too good for you? He has no trouble saying that grey hair (or...fill in the blanks) bother him. you will be single a long,long time Andcanitbe!! I have been rejected by A severe, bald sufferer of OCD who barely passed my 5'4 frame, looked like a Hungarian Santa Claus, also, a blind farmer who hates overweight women and cant stand others' kids, a retard, a midget (truly) Mexican divorced pastor (apparently), a welfare narcisisstic artist who abandoned his daughter and wife, a a divorced rake with no nickels to rub together,A pock-faced holy-headed guy and others who all thought I was not good enough!! And these are the sheep dearie!! And I was willing to even overlook these faults but my age and weight could not be forgiven by these sheep. Pass me some goats, sweetie!!

BTW, I am average looking, with 39-ish weight gain, have a Master's in education, make closer to a hundred thousand than not, am musical, artistic, love sports, adopted a child and have travel extensivel and own a home. I just can't get a date from a believer. And I give up. That is why I am here. that is why You are here.

That was a mouthful. Please do not say I am bitter. I am simply expressive:)
I guess I should just tell these losers Thanx!!
ANGEL
 proverbsgirl
Joined: 9/10/2006
Msg: 4
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/25/2006 6:48:40 PM
What nice reply..Thanx! I feel duty-bound to thid tiny one (if I leave who will do the music...)
Angel
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 5
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The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/25/2006 9:47:02 PM
And Can it Be, your post was the most intelligent take on the "profession of Faith" that I have ever heard. I always secretly despised altar calls or "coming forward" to make a profession of Faith, yet I never knew why. I cringed when a Preacher would work himself and the crowd up into a frenzy and ask for a show of hands. I have always felt guilty about this, but perhaps it was false guilt. Thank you for that enlightened post. It was inspired.

Yes, I purposely typed the Purpose Driven Lie. There are critics of this book who think there is a subtle turning away from Biblical Christianity within. I tryed reading it once but got bored after 2 chapters.
 RomanticGoodFella
Joined: 6/12/2006
Msg: 6
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/26/2006 1:00:36 AM
Lie is correct, i have seen both my parents lives turn into "lies" i wish they would "un" brainwash themselves..rather..a life changing event will be the only thing that will free their minds.Cornerstone church in San Antonio Texas already has ATM machines in the Foyers so you can draw from your bank account to dump into the tithe bucket at the church..surcharge is $4 i heard as well..we are living in a sad world
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 7
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The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/26/2006 10:56:37 PM
Just found out that the Church I have been attending gives hardback copies of the "Purpose Driven Life" to all new members. You can also get a paperbound copy of the Bible if you request one.
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 8
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/28/2006 4:01:57 PM
Message # 6--I'm glad you appreciated my comments. I, too, have always hated the altar call. It makes me want to jump out of my skin.

Message # 3--I'm sorry you think my prospects of catching a man are so bleak. I believe in the Providence of God. I believe that God has ordained all things that come to pass. If it is His will that I date or remarry, He will bring the men/man into my life at the right time in the manner of His choosing. That's why I haven't put any restrictions on who can contact me.

I have no intention of dating unbelievers because I married in "the church" but unintentionally married an unbeliever. That marriage lasted for 25 years. As one pastor said, I married in the church but not in the faith. I know what it's like to be married to someone who does not share my faith and who actively opposes my beliefs. I choose not to go through that again.

As far as my gray hair goes, I've had some men comment that it is what they noticed about my picture. Other men have said that they like gray hair. Other men like a woman who has the courage to wear her hair natural instead of coloring it. It's been gray for 20 years.

I am here to post in the Religion Forum rather than to get a date. I have a profile up because it is something God may use to bring someone into my life.
 statueman
Joined: 2/11/2006
Msg: 9
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The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/29/2006 9:00:03 AM
this thread makes me very sad... there are whole churches filled with right and wrong... just as there are whole persons who have great goodness and pathetic troubles in their lives.

Paul said I rejoice that Christ is preached be it from false motives or from true.

And yet I too felt a little leary of the Purpose Driven Life book... didn't the Master say to beware when all men speak well of you? Besides... it scares me that there seem to be many who have when to great lengths studying teachings rather than simply reading and understanding what Jesus said and applying it on their own without looking to man for approval.
 BlueDi
Joined: 8/24/2006
Msg: 10
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/29/2006 10:38:10 AM
Im in Liverpool...England..and I attend a Baptist Church were we have read the book altogether as a church...twice now...

And all i can say is that I found.. as well as lots of other ppl in our church to be an amazing book...it was challenging and encouraging and one of the best books ive read to help u realise how much God loves you and wants to have a personal relationship with you.

It helps u so much and I cant understand were u guys are coming from who are putting it down.... have u read it?? properly like???

I would recommend it .. and have done so...sending it to friends who have also found it to have a great impact on their spiritual life
 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 11
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/29/2006 8:38:05 PM
I don't know if you deliberately typed "the purpose drive lie" or meant to type "the purpose drive LIFE," but the purpose of the church is to feed God's flock not to entertain the goats. I know that statement will infuriate most people, but it is true. Worshipping the true and living God corporately and publicly is our greatest privilege. God is the one who adds to the church those who are being saved.

These mega-churches that try to get people to make a public profession of faith or say some believer's prayer are doing their members a disservice. It is not the PROFESSION of faith that saves. It is the POSSESSION of faith that saves. Anyone can make a profession of faith, and most professions of faith made during the altar call are made because emotions run high and people are urged to come forward and profess their faith. FEELINGS are not FAITH. Singing some mindless praise song over and over again induces people to make these spurious professions of faith. How many of these new "members" are actually living a Christian life even two years later? Very few.

I know my opinions are not popular. True saving faith is the gift of God not something that is worked up by human emotions in a packed arena when a preacher is shouting at the top of his lungs. All these people who make these professions of faith come into these churches to find things such as marriage counselling, classes in financial management, find friends for their children, make friends, maybe become involved in a music program, etc. This may be okay, but what people need is to be taught and to grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. You can look long and hard to find someone who actually shares your faith because people go to church for various reasons, and a lot of them don't go to church because they love God.



I totally agree with you and it is crucial that we understand this. The Church is for our edification and one of it's purposes is help beleivers in the knowlendge of the Truth and of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is very important that we beleivers understand this and that we see things in their right perspective.

It's great to hear those kinds of posts, sure not all people may like it, but the Truth is the Truth!!

There has to be a possession of Faith in ones everyday living and it is a daily walk we have with God and it is part of our Sanctification. So it's not only professing but living it too because that is the fruit that comes with it when we are filled with the Holy Spirit.
 statueman
Joined: 2/11/2006
Msg: 12
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The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 9/30/2006 12:38:42 PM
Ratero-park-man and

Outwardly christianity is hardly a success... If the seven churches in Asia are any hint to that...

But i'm not quite ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. Some people prefer the security of a larger organized Christian faith. Since salvation is hardly earned by works can we really presume to tell the state of anothers salvation by what we observe of their behavior? Do we now judge by what our eyes see and ears hear... do the Seven Spirits of the Lord rest upon us the same talent of righteous and equitable judgement that Isaiah foresaw in Jesus?

But (back on topic) what can this poor gentile say? I didn't like the book that much because of it's tone... it has that "I've got my life together" sound to it and just gave me the creeps. Big churches give me the creeps, I gave it to God and go now only to smaller churches so my BS meter won't kick into high gear. Mainly because I don't like adopting any other blueprint for applied christianity besides the Gospels and Acts, the letters and when I'm feeling a bit like an adopted son the Law and the Beloved Prophets. All of these I think best filtered for understanding through the Red Letters and not a new bestseller. I say the old wine is better.

Unfortunately entertaining the goats seems to give the sheep enough time to collect their thoughts and make a plan of action. I am thoroughly convinced that it is best to support our own ministry without judging the next one before it's time. After all when the farmer heard that there where tares amoungst the wheat he would not allow his servants to uproot the tares lest some of the wheat gets burned with them... to me the message is clear. Wait till the harvest...
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 13
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The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/1/2006 1:12:33 AM
BlueDi, while there is alot of good stuff to be said in the Purpose Driven Life, the final analysis is that it is misleading. There are many articles on-line pro and con on this book. Some have said that it is outright heresy.

I found the article on-line that gives a fair assessment of what is wrong with the PDL book:

http://www.mckenziestudycenter.org/theology/articles/purposedrivenlife.html
 Byrd
Joined: 7/19/2004
Msg: 14
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The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/4/2006 8:54:07 AM
If they start selling hot dogs at church...I'm going back. I could probley get the senior discount too..
 dunrich
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 15
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/5/2006 5:13:19 PM
I first read "The Purpose Driven Life" during a time of great disruptions and uncertainties in my life( a time when I had great faith). At the time it was a great source of comfort, as was the Bible and its promises. It was great to think there was a plan to our lives, and that even the bad things in life had a purpose.
With time how ever, doubts about the benifits of that philosophy have set in for me. Looking back , I wonder if there was plan to it all.
I wanted to believe there was someone in control, and all these things had reason.
Now, I cannot say with certainty that this is true. Perhaps, he wants us to believe with out there being meaning, or even worth to what we struggle for on this earth?
It might just be the ultimate test of our faith, to find there was no purpose to it all, just a test to see how strong our faith really is.
 dunrich
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 16
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/5/2006 6:06:21 PM
The danger to "The Purpose Driven Life " philosophy, is it gets us looking for God having a purpose to what befalls us in this life.

Sometimes we have defeats, not because it is Gods will, but because Satan defeated us. God does seem to very rigid rules on how much he will involve him self in our lives. Some things, no matter how painfull for us, he will not interfere with.


If you think there is a reason that God is allowing these things to happen, for some reason down the road. Then as time goes by,and nothing good happened from what befell you, then you will be quite tempted to blame God .

Same thing with those who require signs, healing, miracles in other words. Great to believe when you witness them, but what happens when God says no, doesn`t grant your prayer?

God does not want us to believe, because he can heal us, or because we see miralcles. He wants us to believe by faith, and faith as we are told, is believing what we cannot see.

That is why new age religion is so popular now days, people want to believe in something, they want there to be supernatural reason to what happens to us, even if its something silly like stars causing it!

God allows crooks to prosper, while victims suffer. He allows cheats to have love, while their mates are doomed to lonlinest. It is not his purpose for this to occur! He just allows it, as he will not interfere with free will to choose.

Unfortunately though, Satan is not bound by such rules, and certainly makes immoral living profitable now days. In this day and age, reapers reap what sowers sow, with out repricusssion. Since there is no right or wrong, those who have no care for ethics have an unfair advantage.

Nothing about that is "purpose from God". It just is.
 eye8one2
Joined: 3/1/2006
Msg: 17
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/5/2006 8:54:03 PM
Sad truth, just like the education industry or economy, in lieu of teaching students how to learn, they are in business to teach you what they want you to learn and try and stop you from learning that, that which they teach is not what you need nor for you benefit but for theirs and their associates and their agenda which is based solely upon economics and regionlized power within different aspects of the municipal government and educational boards.

Both (public education and traditional family churches) are failing at what they were established to do and be from the beginning. The economy and the client base is what is important to them and those who profess to have a new answer with a brand new dog and pony show, attract the ones who have witnessed the hypocrytes and falsehoods of the traditional or mainstream religions but still need others to tell them the way (by the way, just look inside yourself and start learning from experiencing life, take the blindfold off, you will see that they are and that they continue to lie for economic reasons).

The administration and the marketing of religion to the public along with manipulating their clients to put support behind certain city officials, school board members etc, is the order of business. Most people are there for other reasons not assosiated to spiritual living be it networking for business, getting into intimate relationships, the social interaction, maybe they are forced to go (like the kids) and or because they have nowhere else to go.

There are those who know this to be true, there are those who deny this to be true (agenda based and earning from the industry) and those who are just to stupid and ignorant to know what is truly going on and they are basically to lazy to take the journey themselves and are happy to take others words and beliefs on, mind you, they are far to happy to tell them what the journey is and why and so forth and any contributions would be greatly appreciated so they can continue to tell you what it is and where you are going .

You have to decide and identify which group that you fit into, that is all....
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 18
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The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/5/2006 10:53:08 PM
Dunrich, reading your posts made me think that you would probably benefit greatly by a book called "Blue like Jazz" by Donald Miller. It is a book wrote by a Christian but at the opposite end of the spectrum from "Purpose Driven".
 dunrich
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 19
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/6/2006 5:09:45 AM
Eye 8 one 2
You have really made a valid point. Too many churches and religions are preaching and teaching, what people want to hear, what is politically correct and what is popular.

What is the point of going to a church that teaches mans philosophy instead of Gods?

Have had difficulty realizing what bothered me about The Purpose Driven Life. Then one day I recalled a conversation I had one evening with a Lady who believed in New Age and astrology. It dawned on me, the philosophy of the Purpose Driven Life is a Christian take on new age principals.

New Age says certain things are to happen to you so you can learn and in a similar fashion of Hinduism, evolve to a higher state.

Rick Warren would have us believe that nothing happens with out God planning it, so we can learn and come to do his will. Christianitys answer to the popularity of new age and astrology. New Age Christianity!

Well I dont believe God plans for us to have unfaithful spouses, he does not plan for us to have violent crime occur to us, he does not plan for things that are against his nature. Things against his nature, are not part of a purpose, planned or condoned by him!

For unlike, churches, he does not change. These things happen , because there are other influences in the world that he does not allow him self to interfere with. He wants us to believe in him, because he is God, and his son payed a huge price for us. Not because of any good (miracles) that comes to us in this life.

Right now, there is a believer in Africa dying of starvation, aids, perhaps typhiod. There is no purpose to that which God wants or desires. That person, still believing though, even though no reward on this earth is coming his way, has faith.

North American reward based religions, like Dr. Robert Schullyers comformation of positve thinking crap, Rick Warrens there is a God planned purpose to every thing, even evil, those hacks who preach that God wants us to be rich and happy, they are all espousing things that resemble New Age and astrology. Gives us comfort to think there are powers that want us to go through the pains that life throws at us.

God wants us to believe, period. Even when you are African, dying with out any purpose and hope of better things to come, or even if you are happily married , successful and your Tigers are beating the Satanic NY Yankees! ( Joke) RDtoo Will look for that book, thanks.
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 20
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/6/2006 6:29:09 AM
How can you sell millions of books if you don't have a "program" to teach people what their purpose is.

I can tell you what the purpose of the Christian's life is in two simple sentences:

Q. 1 What is the chief end of man?
A. Man's chief end is to glory God and to enjoy Him for ever (Westminster Shorter Catechism).

We could change it to:
Q. What is the purpose of man's life?
A. Man's chief purpose is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.

How do we glorify God? As has been pointed out, we glorify God by trusting Him during the trials of our life. by patiently waiting on God to deliver us in His own time and the manner of His choosing. We trust Him in times of poverty, sickness, injury, family crisis, etc. There are times when God doesn't seem to be answering our prayers for deliverance because He knows that the trying of our faith produces patience which is worth more than fine gold.

So many of the mega-churches are just a fashion show to show off the new car, the new clothes, to brag about the new house, the big promotion at work, etc. It's easy to be a Christian when everything is going great and the message at church meets your "felt needs."

It's hard to be a Christian when you are out of a job, have a sick child or spouse, your marriage is breaking up, the car needs major repairs, the house needs major repairs, and all the pastor can harp on at church is the fact that YOU are a SINNER in need of God's grace. To top it off, there's no miraculous deliverance like you've been promised when you sent your "seed money" to the Word of Faith preacher you saw on TBN. You are beginning to think you were taken advantage of!

This is where all those phony professions of faith made in the heat of emotion start to show the true Christian from the false professor. Trials strengthen the faith of the true believer because they send him to God for "strength to help in time of need" knowing that God "pities, protects and provides for" His children as it says in the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 12, Of Adoption. In addition, the true believer enjoys daily intercession at the throne of grace by his Savior Jesus Christ as one of the benefits procurred for him by His Savior's sacrifice. All those for whom Christ died, He intercedes.

The false professor who attends the mega-church to get his felt-needs met will now decide that God has let him down. After all, God is the ultimate sugar-daddy. He was promised a "purpose-driven life" of victory after victory instead of the true Christian experience of trials, trouble, and temptation as we read in Hebrews 11. His only comment is, "If this is Christianity, I'm out of here!" Of course the pastor of the mega-church doesn't even know this family is gone because he can't know all his flock because there are too many people to personally shepherd. They come and go, and the super-pastor doesn't know who they are. So much for their experience as "Christians."
 dunrich
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 21
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/6/2006 2:24:40 PM
And can it be Very true, I know for a fact because I have been in that place where I thought God had let me down, started to blame God for my trials, not the actual parties who were the cause!

This is quite common with in Christianity, and it comes from this belief that God has a part in every thing. One person I knew, became quite depressed after she had a bad day. Started with a flat tire. She was sure God was punishing her for something. Well, God does not throw nails on your drive way to punish you. ( And neither do stars for those astrology believers). He isnt going to get the jack out and change it for you either on the other hand.

He didnt plan a person just for you as in soul mate , and lay out some elaborate plan to have you meet at a certain time and place in a time line of life! He gave us free will to meet, decide these things for our selves.

I am reminded of arranged marriages when I think of "soul mates", planned by God for us. If God does this, then why are so many of us divorced believing people on sites like this?

What, God planned 2 soul mates for us? Planned the 2nd one because he knew the first one would fail?

Rather a poor opinion of Gods ability if you think that. As someone who has a patented invention, I would never let the first proto type out into the market place I didnt think it was going to suceed! And am sure, God is much better at that than I am, cretainly he has more expierience!

God didnt fail in any thing he did. When bad things happen, it is because his original intentention, was abused by its new owner. Yes, we are owners of our destiny, we choose to follow God or not. And he allows us too.

For God wants to be loved by us, not for goodies like some sugar daddy, real love. What good is forced or bribed love?
 Huggablehottie
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 22
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/6/2006 4:18:57 PM
Hi,
I have this book called the Purpose Driven Life,(a gift from a friend) I read it a few years back,
and went through it fast. The message that the book gives is about making it
part of your daily life to serve others and do good for them.
Also the book is answering the question many people ask, about why
humans were created to begin with.
The book is meant to be used in a group setting, but I did not use it that way.
I was curious as to what it was about.
Well, I think that all churches ask for money, but as far as I know they will
let you attend services even if you don't have any money.
Churches do have bills too, they are a business, they have lights, gas, repairs
and salaries to pay. It is good to ask serious questions about finances and how
the money is spent, any good church will give you a printout of their
financial statement. It is true that money can get "misspent". You do have to
know who your pastor and leaders are and what they are doing, as you should
never put anyone above God, and yes some of these people are shady characters.
There is no perfect church, and you will never find one, as someone mentioned; there
are good, and bad even at churches.
I would say to look around, visit some of these churches, see what they offer, see
if it is somewhere you would like to be. However, do not compare yourself to anyone
else in the church!
 The Snuggler
Joined: 1/24/2006
Msg: 23
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/6/2006 5:59:07 PM
I'll take a red hot, that is fo shizzle
 The Snuggler
Joined: 1/24/2006
Msg: 24
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/6/2006 5:59:15 PM
I'll take a red hot, that is fo shizzle
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 25
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History
The Purpose Driven Lie?
Posted: 10/6/2006 11:04:18 PM
I suppose what is so troubling is that the Purpose Driven Life has become almost a cult. I read one story on the internet where a guy took a Bible to a Purpose Driven Study and wanted to compare what Warren was saying to the Bible. He got thrown out!

I would agree that there is a subtle New Ageism in these Seeker Churches. It makes me think that if you want to find the devil at work, you will find him more so in the Church than in the local bar scene.
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