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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it not dead      Home login  
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 Simlasa
Joined: 10/30/2004
Msg: 5
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it not deadPage 1 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
I prefer smaller cars anyway, for one thing, they are less demanding on the infrastructure.
I'd be happy to drive slower for the sake of going electric.
It seems like the recharge time might be solved by having the battery be swapped out at a 'battery station'... the 'battery station' would keep a bunch of them charging at all times... you just pull up, swap the drained one for a charged one, and drive off.
Of course... electric car batteries I've seen are awfully darn big...
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 7
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it not dead
Posted: 2/11/2007 10:25:29 PM
^


We burn oil faster than the ground can produce it. Might take 10 years, might take 300 years. We will run out of oil.


..............there has been no real shortage of oil......prices are determined by speculators and oil companies.......right now, its the oil companies and oil producing countries that are getting rich, and they decide how much oil gets pumped out.

............there are more efficient and cleaner sources of energy such as hydrogen and corn oil but production and commercialization has been held back by politicians who are controlled by oil company lobbyists.......they are even against producing engines that are more fuel efficient than the ones we now have!.........the electric engine is so underpowered that it is not seen as a threat to the oil industry at all!

......nobody is really serious about fuel efficiency because there are too many entities making lots of money!
 SoTexMan
Joined: 8/23/2005
Msg: 9
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/12/2007 9:11:42 AM
Hey, all:

It seems that practically no one actually saw the movie, or bothered to find out anything about it, based on the glib, pat, erroneous responses here. Guess that doesn't prevent people from being ignorant, especially the naysayers and pro-fossil fuels buffoons. The fact is GM killed their own product: they and the American Petroleum Institute lobbied California politicians and had the statute repealed that mandated the EV-1. The dealer network in California also did not like the vehicle since it needed fewer repairs and they weren't making enough money off of it. Get used to this term: CORPORATE OLIGARCHY.

If one had seen the movie, one would know the owners were highly motivated to take care of the vehicles. If one had seen the movie, one would know the owners were greatly opposed to giving them up. If one had seen the movie, one would know the cars had quick acceleration, and were enjoyable to drive. If one had seen the movie, one would know the cars were used for commuting and local purposes. By the way, the title is a take-off on "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" which dealt with the conspiracy by Detroit, Big Oil, and Big Rubber to kill off electric street cars used for urban mass transit.

There are some misconceptions about electric cars that need to be corrected. The biggest is that if the electrical energy source that is used to charge the cars is not sustainable, then the pollution caused is merely displaced from the point of use of the car to the location where the power plant is located. In fact, with transmission and conversion losses, there is actually a net increase in pollution if the source is not sustainable. So merely having electric cars does NOT reduce pollution.

However that is not the point of the questions here. Several things would have happened if the EV-1 had been allowed to continue. First, all the technology used to produce electric vehicles of all types would have all improved: this is the nature of technology and product and markets. Batteries would get lighter, smaller, more powerful, range of vehicles would increase, an infrastructure would develop to recharge/replace batteries on the road, price would come down as economy of scale took effect, greater markets would develop, and competition between manufacturers would increase. Second, other technologies would be promoted as alternatives to EVs, and by now we would be further along the path of sustainability and distributed generation. All of this is of course the opposite of what Detroit and Big Oil want, so it is not surprising they ended the EV-1.

The issue of pollution also needs to be addressed, and this can and will ultimately be done with sustainability and distributed generation. If you have the means of charging an electric vehicle in this way, as I do, you do your commuting, charge the vehicle at night, and repeat the next day. When we begin moving away from centralized big corporate-owned fossil-fuel-driven power plants and move toward sustainable sources, such as wind, PV, biomass and geothermal, and also to distributed generation, reducing pollution, transmission losses, illegal takeovers of foreign governments and improved security of energy sources, then we would actually see that CO2 pollution and anthropogenic climate change is being significantly reduced.

Regarding other questions asked, the events of recent years are too close together to have made a difference in actual measured anthropogenic climate change, but might have improved the public awareness of the issue. As far as invading Iraq, only NOT caving in to the pressure of the stolen 2000 U.S. election and permitting the evil, idiot, ignorant, arrogant,
sanctimonious, cheerleader, DUMB A S S Bush to take office would have avoided that. Those events ARE clear enough to know the implications of history.

As long as we continue to rely on the traditional technology of electricity-as-commodity, we will be stuck in this pattern of reliance on fossil fuels and all the pollution and hidden costs they carry with them. But, there is no need to wait--many many people have done it, years ago, continuing in the present, and growing in the future. I have been living happily off the grid for nine years, and I assist others in doing so. The EV-1 is another example of technology which was not given a proper opportunity because of politics. So goes the corporate oligarchy.

David


Messages done with sustainable energy, with Wind and Sun!
 Hozo
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 12
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/14/2007 11:03:36 PM
When the time is ripe, the electric(or some form of non petroleum based) cars will appear....but not AMERICAN electric cars. It bet it will be the Asians who will perfect, develop & market it, as they now do with most everything these days.

I believe it will be a nation (like Japan) who doesnt have their own energy reserves that will get the ball rolling. We North Americans will be the last to adopt it as usual. But thats ok with me...it will be perfected by then & also be cost-effective when finally adopted.
 SoTexMan
Joined: 8/23/2005
Msg: 13
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/15/2007 11:18:16 PM
Hey, all:

I suggest that it is not a matter of when things are ripe, since pure market forces do not have that much to do with the situation of the mix and availability of vehicles. CAFE legislation and the exemptions for trucks and SUVs are perfect examples of this, and we can add in the lack of balance for subsidies for energy sources: of the last U.S. energy bill something like $85 billion went for fossil fuels and $1 bil for sustainable fuels. And they didn't send 100s of thousands of military to the Middle East not to take advantage of the spoils.

I do agree it will almost certainly be an Asian, probably Japanese or Korean company that first comes up with a pure electric or mostly electric hybrid car for the mass market. And the buyer will be exactly the same ones who loved the EV-1--commuters who make a commitment to the techology. And as cost comes down and range increases the market will expand. And as far as the U.S. being the ones to do it, looks like the lights are going off in Detroit even as we speak.

I also agree that acceptance, at least in the U.S., will be slow, but due to the resistance of the corporate oligarchy and not the public. Unless we break the cycle of elected officials being mere tapeworms of the old men who run corporations, it will be a long time. Remember it was the oligarchy that killed the EV-1.

David


Messages done with sustainable energy, with Wind and Sun!
 rocks and stones
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 14
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/16/2007 8:29:22 AM
Hey David, I keep reading in your posts, over and over, how it's the corporations and the oligarchy that is keeping electric vehicles down. You also say that it will be because of the oligarchy and not the public that keeps the acceptance of the electric car at a slow pace.

I could not disagree with you more. It's not the companies that are forcing people to drive big vehicles. They make them becuase people buy them and the auto makers get huge revenue from these vehicles.

When the people decide that they need smaller more efficient vehicles that's is when everything will change. Until people adopt that mind set everything will remain status quo. European's have big oil companies living in their backyards as well. Companies like BP, BG, Royal Dutch Shell and many more. But the people in Europe realize they can't drive big gas hogs and they have adopted efficient technology.

I really think it's time to stop ragging on the corporations and start beating up the mind set of the people who are causing the problem.
 SoTexMan
Joined: 8/23/2005
Msg: 15
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/16/2007 11:11:34 AM
Hey, all:

Off-topic: Well, gee, Rocks, you are free to disagree. And as far as time is concerned you take all the time you wish to express the things you think. And I will do the same in my own way. Comparing the transportation situation in the U.S. to Europe while ignoring history and geography and resources is not very well-informed--but go ahead.

The old men who have run things since we stood upright and put on clothes have the power and money to do pretty much what they want to stay in power and money. And controlling the market for commodities such as fossil fuels is one of their most important activities, and anything that influences changes in that commodity becomes part of the activity. This is also absolutely true of the EV-1 and all other trends that threaten to reduce our use of their commodity, and the loss of their profits. Marketing and politics and legislation are the main tools of their trade. Deal with it or not.

Corporate oligarchy, Corporate oligarchy, Corporate oligarchy, Corporate oligarchy....


On-topic: The large batteries used in all these applications are highly recycleable and recycled. This saves a huge amount in new resources and reduces pollution associated with disposal. The same people who support the growth of the technology are the same ones who support sustainability and so are motivated to encourage policies and actions that increase recycling. Even if this wasn't true the economics of recycling would still keep the level high. Things are too valuable not to.

David


Messages done with sustainable energy, with Wind and Sun!
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 16
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/16/2007 11:44:06 AM
I saw the movie and it was disturbing not just in the non-point they were making but the subtle fanning the flames that polarize our country today. This thread is full of it. As the movie showed, it was not just GM nor just domestic cars. It was not the first electrics to come and go. The people who possessed the cars DID NOT OWN THEM. They leased them with the agreement they could be taken back and that is what happened. There are many questions I would have liked the producers to try to get answers to but I suspect their biases and therfore their methods of getting answers would not have produced the answers. My guess is that the cost of maintining these cars beyond the experiment's desired results was deemed too great a liability. The batteries would begin to die and then the cost would shoot up. As a engineer who works with battery powered systems, this is quite predictable. It would appear the marketing and technology experiment that was these cars was a success but their retirement was a PR disaster. The car companies know that electrics are comming. I am guessing tax law interpretation may have contributed to the decision to destry the cars. I have to admit, that really did hurt to see it happen.

Oil and gas companies make money from fossil fuels no matter if they are burned in cars or generators. As SoTex stated, the net fuel burn might actually be tilted against electrics but I would argue otherwise. Either way, its close. Nukes, wind, solar, tides etc. can easily power electrics but that assumes some grid and SoTex doesn't "like" such things.

As for driving performance, electrics will do fine. The torque characteristics and efficiency blow away internal combustion engines. The issue gets down to storage batteries and recharging time. A 400 mile range SUV is pretty convenient to haul the kids to their games and take them on a trip. Refueling takes minutes and click off a few hundred more miles. An electric has trouble with the long trip part but not because of the motor and drive. Its the batteries. Electric motors are not thermal engines and thus are not limited by the thermal cycle efficiency limitations of gas engines. Figure 80%+ for electric motor to 15%- for a very good gas engine. Good power plants run about 45% because of the hightemp high pressure boilers. Less so for gas turbine. If someone developes a good methane fuel cell or process that eliminates the thermal cycle engine, then the energy equation changes. Hydrocarbons can be derived from agriculture but not without competing with food and things like rain forests.

Since people typically buy ony one car per driver, they buy the car that meets their most demanding need. Most of the time, they drive that monster alone to and from work and shopping. How about an incentive to buy more cars per driver? People then drive the most efficient car for the trip taken. That "out of the box" solution probably inflames the back to nature crowd. Some people actually do this despite the overhead cost.

As for Europeans driving more efficient cars, it is pretty much economics, geography, and culture. Fuel costs are much higher, ancient roads are smaller and trips shorter, Families are smaller. They use more trailers for trips to make up for the lack of cargo space. The "Grass is greener over there" comparisons are more of the subtle inflaming of the polarization in this country. Many people really don't want to live like Europeans. I guess you could call it a diversity thing.

By the way SoTex, since when has the infrastructure of the internet and building of your PC been off-grip and fossil fuel free?
 Hozo
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 17
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/16/2007 2:05:29 PM
As for Europeans driving more efficient cars, it is pretty much economics, geography, and culture. Fuel costs are much higher, ancient roads are smaller and trips shorter, Many people really don't want to live like Europeans. I guess you could call it a diversity thing.


Many AMERICANS really don't want to live like Europeans. Thats the biggest hurdle.


Remember the Yugo?? It was basically a Yugoslavian Fiat licensed by Fiat - built in Yugoslavia.
I had a 1988...owned it for 9 years. 40+mpg. Great car. BUT....ridiculed by American consumers & laughed at. They would rather have their 4000 Lb. SUVs.

Remember half of Europe still drive Fiats & Yugos ...and vehicles of similar size. They are still being manufactured & the Europeans are buying them with glee. Basic economical transportation. Whats up with that???

So I do agree that it is the AMERICAN mindset thats keeps an electric car from becoming mainstream.

But I also agree withSoTexMan in a way because there are some pretty cool subcompacts in Europe that get killer MPG & you cant buy them here. Bummer.

Ive said in another thread that I presently own 2 Geo Metros(early 90s) & they both get very near 50 mpg. Why would someone spend $30,000 US on a hybrid when you could buy a dozen very nice used Metros for that sum?? Is it gas mileage?? The gas mileage isnt that much different.

Why then?? Because the Americans want their big pig dinosaur-mobiles & dont care if they get 15 mpg. The lunatic fringe who buy hybrids are just that...fringe. A hybrid is not practical for a lower income consumer. I believe I read that replacing the battery pack for a hybrid is near $10,000. NOT practical in my book. I could buy a garage full of Metros with that.LOL.

There has to be technology here NOW that can produce a Geo Metro-sized electric commuter car that doesnt cost a fortune. Thats what I want. Driving back & forth to work electrically & economically is all i ask for. But the rest of fat ass America laughs at that notion.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 20
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/18/2007 8:41:34 AM
Hey Hozo,

Despite the fact that I'm an enthusiastic prius owner, and thus insulted by your knee jerk characterization of my 'kind', I do agree that it makes far more pure personal economic sense to buy a good used economy car than a brand new hybrid. I've owned 14 vehicles so far, and the price I paid for the Prius almost exactly matches the sum of the purchase prices of the 13 vehicles that preceeded it. It's the first and quite possibly the last new vehicle I've ever purchased.

Long ago I rejected the notion that one should only buy the one vehicle that meets your most challenging need. For the past 15 years I've owned both a fuel efficient vehicle and a four wheel drive truck. Currently I put about 30,000 miles a year on the Prius, about 1000 miles a year on my Tacoma, mostly here on the property hauling firewood.

It is BECAUSE of the typical american mindset that I bought my Prius. At the time I had a high income, so I could afford it, and I wanted to set an example by driving the most environmentally friendly gas-powered vehicle on the market, demonstrating that it COULD handle wintry roads, haul bales of hay or my raft and kayaks, and even serve as cheap lodging by folding the seats flat and making a bed in it.

Prius owners, despite your assumptions, fall into essentially three categories, that I term the techies, greenies, and cheapies. The cheapies think they're saving money, but we both know that's a falacy. It's hard to get past the mindset of those who are paranoid about driving anything but a new car under warranty though. The greenies and techies share few values, other than their love for Prius.

And your information on battery replacement cost is off by nearly a decimal point. Current retail battery replacement cost is just over $1000, but it doesn't much matter because hardly any batteries have failed, and if they do you can find one from a salvaged wreck on Ebay for 500 bucks or so. The risk of battery failure is significantly less than the risk of transmission or engine failure in a conventional vehicle, and in the same cost range.

Having said all that, to get back on topic, I honestly believe that whenever the impacts of peak oil become personal reality for us, whether this year or ten years from now, we'll rapidly transition to driving electric vehicles. The technical challenges are incredibly less than those for hydrogen fuel cells, whose prototypes, btw, can't even go as far as today's electric vehicles without refueling, and that's just one of their many drawbacks. Battery technology is improving, including the potential for rapid recharge, but even if we're not there by the time we need it I don't see why service stations couldn't charge banks of batteries overnight when power demand is low, and offer battery swap service for those needing to go farther than their range allows before stopping to recharge. Cars could be designed so you could swap batteries in the same time it currently takes to fill your tank. Most people don't drive far enough in a single day to need that service anyway, so those facilities could be primarily clustered on interstates. It wouldn't take much for parking lots to be rigged with power hookups, so plug in a few quarters to the meter and let your car charge while you shop, dine, work, etc....

And as others have pointed out, performance is a non-issue. Electric cars have consistently out-performed the best muscle cars out there in acceleration competitions, limited only by tire technology in how fast they can leap out of the gate. In fact the Prius uses primarily the electric motors for rapid acceleration, the gas motor for maintaining speed.

Dave
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 23
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/19/2007 7:38:04 PM
Have you folks checked out the car currently being marketed with the name Tesla? The name is a testimonial to his early efforts, I'm sure. 250 miles on a charge, 0-60 in 4 seconds. A bit pricey at just under $100,000, but actually in the same general range as other comparable sports cars. Assembled by Lotus. Not for the average driver, to be sure, but I do like the idea of making a really hot electric sports car to combat the pokey golf cart image electric cars too often have. And they're sold out for 2007, now taking orders for 2008. I keep buying the right lottery ticket. If only they'd just draw the right numbers......

Dave
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 24
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/19/2007 8:43:49 PM
Hozo (and most other people on here) should realize that each of their situations account for approximately 0.0000003% of all Americans. A lot less for planet wide. Not everyone can drive a Yugo and most people seem to have found them less than reliable transportation. I certainly couldn't carry a half dozen scouts and back packs in one even with a trailer. That goes for most small vehicles. The typical soccer mom is called a soccer mom she is often toting around more soccer players than will fit in a small car. The most efficient vehicle for this application is a minivan or SUV that will carry that many people and equipment. Overhead costs such as taxes in the form of registration parking space etc. make it cost prohibitive to own a second more efficient car. You will not get sympathy for your arguments if you are not willing to understand their situation. A great many people I know own SUVs and vans primarily to support their community volunteerism. Are these people "fat ass"?

Take the typical mass transit light rail. It costs about $20 per trip per rider mostly paid for by special taxes and some from a token passenger ticket. Figure a typical commuter will do about 300 round trips per year or 600 total trips. That passenger gets about a $12,000 per year tax payer supplement. That could pay for a decent SUV and support every 5 years. Then again, it could buy a whole lot of Yugos. It is politically correct to support mass transit regardless of the math.
 Hozo
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 25
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/20/2007 12:38:25 PM
Not everyone can drive a Yugo and most people seem to have found them less than reliable transportation. I certainly couldn't carry a half dozen scouts and back packs in one even with a trailer. That goes for most small vehicles. The typical soccer mom is called a soccer mom she is often toting around more soccer players than will fit in a small car. The most efficient vehicle for this application is a minivan or SUV that will carry that many people and equipment.


Euro families are identical in size & proportion to American families...other than our fatter asses, so how do Euro, or for that matter, Asian families cope & manage with their tiny sub-compacts?? They succeed in day to day life just the same as we do. Thats the point I was trying to make. Americans just dont WANT a smaller car that is more fuel efficient.

My tirade wasnt personal...I was just spouting due to frustration concerning how American's spoiled ways affect those like me who wants & desires a an AFFORDABLE electric subcompact, or a new AFFORDABLE gasoline powered Geo Metro-type subcompact which gets 50+ mpg. That technology was there 15 years ago. Where is it now??

I dont understand why they dont dust off the plans from the Metro & re-introduce it again?? They would sell like hotcakes right now I bet..no retooling, just manfacture them again & sell them. I bet they could be had for well under $10,000 with a decent profit margin for the manufacturer.

Unfortunately it wont happen due to the SUPER SIZE mentality here. When everyone cried like babies at $3+ per gallon gasoline I laughed at them. It really didnt affect me. The only hope I have left is the price skyrockets to $5 a gallon, THEN Americans will change their tune. If an affordable electric car is still out of reach, an affordable gasoline powered super fuel efficient subcompact isnt.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 26
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/20/2007 8:32:10 PM
You say something like a Metro would sell like hotcakes but then complain of a supersize mentality. So who does the hotcake buying? The point was, you cannot apply your situation, ideals and values on others. Given the limited budgets of most people, they will buy the vehicle that meets their most demanding need and put up with the inefficiency the rest of the time. Those most demanding needs are typically neighborhood youth programs, travel, carrying large products, transporting clients and prospective clients etc. Each person's situation is different.

The fluctuating prices of fuel are due to speculation and resulting overproduction cycles. Low prices intice people to buy less efficiency. On the other hand, we could try govenrment central planning like in 1973 and have places run out while other places surplus. Such concepts led to continued double digit inflation with high unemployment. The same central planning process cratered the USSR economy.

European culture tends to be different from the US. Population density is much higher and mass transit more developed even though it is a major tax burdon. Typical Europeans are not taught that they can be anything they want to be. For those dreams, they immigrate to the US like most of our ancestors did.

Back on topic, the movie seemed to be a short-sighted examination what was really an experiment, not the end of time like the movie title suggests. GM appears to be applying the lessons learned toward developing a new generation of electric/hybrids. In the "volt" concept, they are trying to cover as many alternate fuel systems as they can predict.
 Roverdisc1
Joined: 12/16/2005
Msg: 28
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/25/2007 4:30:31 AM
SoTex had the audacity earlier in this thread to call people ignorant for not seeing the movie, yet commenting. I will have to turn this one on you and call you the ignorant one for watching the movie and believing it's half-truths and myths. It was as much of a piece of fiction as Al Whores movie.

Nobody should fool themselves into think that GM is in the business to do anything other than make money and (this might be hard to grasp) they make their money selling cars (silly concept I agree). No matter what the left wing propaganda proclaims, the fact is that if the EV-1 was a hit selling car, it would still be in production. GM really doesn't give a rip what powerplant is in their vehicles as long as their vehicles sell.

It was an expensive car with less than stellar performance and no infrastructure to support it. It may have had adequate acceleration, but if it will only travel 60 miles before you plug it in, it doesn't do many people good.

How come the masses aren't jumping all over Toyota for killing their electric vehicle? Why did Toyota fly under the radar on this issue? For one reason, the media is "soft" on Toyota and GM is always good target to sell newpapers and movie tickets.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 29
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/25/2007 6:54:58 AM
Wow Roverdis, insults based on names really show that you have an open mind about these issues. So did you watch the actual movie?

How about this, do you think Toyota has as much political pull in the united states as GM?

Man fox news must rot the brain.
 Roverdisc1
Joined: 12/16/2005
Msg: 30
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/25/2007 7:00:10 AM
I do apologize for the personal slur.

And I don't watch Fox news (too liberal for me)
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 31
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/25/2007 7:04:33 AM
Huh that would explain your twisted world view. David duke for president perhaps? I notice you didn't respond to my explanation of why GM would get the flak.
 Roverdisc1
Joined: 12/16/2005
Msg: 32
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/25/2007 7:21:07 AM
I'm not quite sure how you get your twisted world view either and you didn't ask about GM getting the flak, you asked why Toyota wouldn't.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 33
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/25/2007 8:33:20 AM
How come the masses aren't jumping all over Toyota for killing their electric vehicle? Why did Toyota fly under the radar on this issue? For one reason, the media is "soft" on Toyota and GM is always good target to sell newpapers and movie tickets. <--- Who said this?


I answered you.

can't even keep your own statements straight.

My world view is the result of actually looking through multiple media outlets, combined with an education in poltical science.

I'm trying to even figure out what you would actually bother reading for information if fox is too left wing... perhaps free republic web pages?
 Roverdisc1
Joined: 12/16/2005
Msg: 34
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/25/2007 9:27:32 AM
It's not my fault that you don't mind government intrusion, you are a socialist after all. It seems to me that our Republican form of gorvernment has served you well over the past 200+ years. I'm just sorry that the US slips further and further away freedom and closer to socialism. Sorry I'm a patriot.

If you had actually looked through multiple media outlets on this or any other issue we have discussed you would realize that this as much, if not more evidence to your counterpoint. I submit that you are taking a faith based approach to these arguments and choose to "believe".
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 36
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/26/2007 12:16:24 AM
If there is so much evidence, why not show it to us?

Also, the threats to freedom in the USA are from wiretapping and illegal detentions. I guess you care more about corporate freedoms than actual you know... people.
 Roverdisc1
Joined: 12/16/2005
Msg: 37
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/26/2007 1:22:15 AM
Bottom line is that the electric car is gone, even if GM wanted to shoot itself in the foot. Whether it was siding with Exxon or not wanting the environmentalists to control their bottom line.

The threats to freedom in the US are much more than wiretapping and illegal detentions. Freedom is freedom and we should all share in it equally; corporations and citizens alike.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 39
Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/26/2007 5:16:20 AM
Hey whats your freedom and safety compared to the freedom of corporations to conspire to subvert the political process.

As if Roverdisc even watched this movie.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 40
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Who Killed the Electric Car - documovie -What if it was not dead
Posted: 2/26/2007 5:17:23 AM
A couple of points to add to those who are trying to convert this issue into some sort of wise business decision on the part of GM and assert that electric cars are dead:

First, In June 2006, Rick Wagoner, GM's chief executive officer, told Motor
Trend magazine that "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not
putting the right resources into hybrids" was the biggest mistake of
his tenure. In late November, Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman, spoke
about the company's commitment to "the electrification of the
automobile."

Second, this just in:


Governor Richardson Announces Tesla Motors Assembly Facility for
Albuquerque; 400 New High Wage Jobs
WhiteStar Cars are 100 Percent Electric

SANTA FE (February 19, 2007) – Governor Richardson announced today
that Tesla Motors will build a new automobile assembly facility in
Albuquerque, bringing 400 high wage jobs and a total capital
investment of $35 million. Construction on the 150,000 square foot
plant will begin in April 2007, at the latest.

Tesla Motors, based out of San Carlos, Calif., will use the plant to
produce its "WhiteStar" car, a four door, five-passenger sports
sedan, which is 100 percent electric. The New Mexico plant will be
the company's first assembly facility in the United States. The plant
will be built on the West Side of Albuquerque, at Cordera Mesa
adjacent to the new Tempur-Pedic plant. The 400 new jobs will pay
between $24,000 and $100,000 a year, plus excellent benefits and
stock options.


So it would appear that perhaps some who understand business concepts better than we do recognize the mistake GM made as indeed a mistake, and that we WILL be seeing electric vehicles on our roads soon.

Dave
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