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 intheswim
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 1
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railwaysPage 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Well, it looks like we have a new level of 'land claim activism' . Much the same as the Caledonia situation, only this time, it's the Mohawks, and they have effectively shut down the rail lines between Montreal and Toronto.

What do you think of this?
 ttf650
Joined: 3/25/2007
Msg: 2
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/20/2007 11:01:52 PM
^^^ Do you actually think that they'd be able to settle all claims. I should restrain myself here since I just get a little fed up with these constantly re-occuring issues. There will always be a NEW claim that will raise itself. Something about wanting something for nothing or laying claim to. Sorry, I just can't buy into any of these continual claims issues that will never go away, never be completely settled and never be satisfied.
 Leeanne
Joined: 10/14/2005
Msg: 3
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/21/2007 6:52:37 AM
Sometimes people have to go to extremes to be heard!!! Sort of a sad state of affairs when things that could have been settled in a more productive way, has to be done in such a grandstand manner!!! Sort of makes ya wonder what the hell our government has been up to before it came to this!!!
 ttf650
Joined: 3/25/2007
Msg: 4
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/21/2007 10:41:30 AM

well let's think back in time now,who was originally on this land before the white man came?i think they have every right to do what they are doing.after all it was their's before we took it over and drove them onto the reservations.
Sorry, I have to dissagree completely. I look at it this way, and it may seem callous BUT, they lost we won and they've been getting compensated ever since. When is it going to stop. Do you think any of these sort of "compensations" have been or are still going on in Europe and eastern bloc countries for countries that simply got annexed, took over, assumed control or whatever you want to call it. I think not. Lets not forget that I believe all First Nations / Aborignals / Indigenious Peoples have complete to every Federal and Provincial perk and benefit that the rest of us have. Add to that, they are granted special status for a multitude of reasons that also garnish significant financial benefits that you and I aren't able to and will never be able to acquire.
Wait now, here comes a new claim, lets through some more money at it ...... passify, and cross our fingers that it will go away. If not, repeat process.
For pete's sake, enough is enough. If you look into some of the most productive entrepreneurs and businesses on the rise, you'll see it's from these Peoples. Why, again it's because of the extra perks afforded to them that's not available to the rest of the population.
It's a problem that will never go away and will never be solved by throwing more money at it. Two different mindsets that are the driving force behind these initiatives and again, that's a whole complete topic onto itself.
Bottom line, they lost, we won, suck it up buttercup and get on with it. If you want to live in the lifstyle of the rest of Canada with all that it offers than pay the same price as the rest of the population. Can't sit on the fence having it both ways and be a special Peoples one day than a Canadian the next. Make a decision like my parents had to do when they came over on the boat from Europe 54 years ago, lose your allegiance to the old and become part of the Canadian population. Enjoy and indulge in the history and culture of your past but not at the expense of the rest of the population.
And please don't read more into this than what's there. I have no mallice or angst towards any ethnic Peoples whatsoever. In fact, I rellish in the opportunities to experiance these vast and various peoples and have experienced them first hand in Europe, eastern Europe, the Middle East and South America.
It's the midset and and actions of a very few that create these times of tension, drama and downright archiac measures when there is something they want or believe they have entitilement to, nothing more.
 ttf650
Joined: 3/25/2007
Msg: 5
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/21/2007 1:10:22 PM

it just seems to me that natives were forced on to these reservations without much of a choice back then,i hope more of us can open our eyes and our minds and learn from each other.
I agree 100%. Open yur eyes to the reality of the situation and not through rose coloured glasses. It appears we have totally different views on the subject and that's OK. That being said, I'll let you pay my portion of taxes that support those initiatives that compensates them for every purchase made for every service they recieve on our behalf. How long do we continue to pay for the percieved actions of others over 100 years ago? When does the statute of limitations kick in? I believe you would sing a different tune if you were to absorb the cost of these claims, benefits and initiatives. It all comes out of the big pot in the long run. The money that will keep you comfortable when Canada Pension kicks in, when your hospital costs soar when you get older..... the list goes on.
Perhaps a trip to BC is in order for you to truly grasp some of the wealth the Aboriginal communities really have. The lands they have and control. Oh ya that's right, they don't have to abide by National or Provincial fishing regulations, how about hunting regulations (Federal/Provincial), how about logging and clear cutting restrictions and regulations - nope, don't have to abide by those either.
Wake up man, they are a priviledged peoples that really don't know when enough is enough. No bias or prejudice here at all...... simple truth and economics. And isn't the truth of the matter from the openning post of another situation where the public is held hostage to draw attention to a percieved wrong that's perhaps treaty related. You try to pull the same stunt for something you believe in and you can bet your *ss you'll be behind bars in no time at all.
How can some people be so naive.
 ttf650
Joined: 3/25/2007
Msg: 6
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/22/2007 9:48:55 PM

The problem that is happening with these land claims seems to me to be akin to me purchasing a house, and then 15 years later, the original builders of that home coming to my door and demanding i give them the house back, or pay another $250k now that the homes value has increased, and its not fair that i am getting that value when they didn't.
Good point.


It may come across that I may be a hardliner. And that's fine. If I feel strongly about something it may come across that way. I'm not completely conversant with the First Peoples of this Country. But as first peoples, they will not be the only peoples. We all have to live by the same rules. Well almost everyone. The card carrying members have added priviledges non of us will ever have. Priviledges that are financially and economically generous. When is enough going to be enough. Give it up already. Join the rest of Canada's society and play by the rest of societies rules. Like I said before, (and appears no one is listening), YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Those beliefs of self inherent rights and priviledges are out-dated. This country is a collage of muti-cultures. Which still flourish (in Toronto for example) as mentioned by a previous poster. These people experience their culture and heritage and it's great to be able to participate in them. BUT and it's a BIG BUT, those cultures are not indulged at the expense of others, their not given special status, their not given anything more than any other Canadian born here or immigrated. How long should this country maintain a double standard so as to honor treaties and agreements made by people so long ago. It reminds me of when a city or town that comes knockin and says they're going to expropriate your property for a new Mall or highway. It happens all the time. NOW, try doing that on a Native land - YIKES!!!!!! Double standard??? - of course there is. Should we perpetuate it? I wouldn't, but then again I don't run this country. I've been to a lot of countries in Europe, Eastern Europe, Middle East and North Africa and never have I seen such a scizism like this. If land claims haven't been settled by now, to me, that's just plain tough. Somebody wasn't doing their homework or didn't work hard enough to get it sorted in a REASONABLE period of time. In my mind, those claims are TIME EXPIRED. Move on and do like the rest of us Canadians and get on with your lives and stop trying to squeek something out of the government again.
 ttf650
Joined: 3/25/2007
Msg: 7
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/22/2007 10:43:35 PM

Ttf650, to explain a bit. Part of the negotiation process is to make clear on both sides the goals and end product to be had for both parties. I'm simply saying that let's get these things done period. And both sides also need to understand that each side has to give in order to get. The best result is a win, win for both sides. My family has been here for over three centuries and I consider myself Canadian first and foremost, but am sick and tired of having my tax money wasted by inept, spineless political hacks. So why not a grass roots approach? If you look at history you'll see that governments never initiate change, it always comes from those individuals or groups with the passion and vision to set their societies on a different path. So what happens now? do we sit on our asses for another 150 years or do we as a generation get this done and move the country on to other things?
I aggree with you for the most part. But I really don't see what the Mohawks are willing to give up. I travel by and through that area fairly often and I'm not sure what more they want. Aren't most land claims about the band wanting to acquire clear title to, acquire or repossess something. Exactly what is the part that the Band has to give in all of this?
I too am not happy with some of the governments spending policies. If I want to make a change to those spending policies I sure as hell am not going to block a railway. Like I said before, If I had an axe to grind with the government and wanted to be heard and made a blockade on a railway tracks in my hometown, my *ss would be thrown in jail in no time flat. Anybody heard if any of the Mohawks got thrown in jail for this blockade??? I didn't think so. And I haven't even touched onto the safety issues surrounding such an act. And what kind of message does this send to the younger Mohawks??? ..... I wonder??
Hey, here's novel concept. Why not do like the rest of the Canadian public is compelled to do, take it to the courts and let it drag out there. Lets apply the same rules across the board - what a novel concept. It brings to mind the thoughts and actions of the oppressed. I've been through the Mohawk reservation, and it's not oppressed. Actually, there's a considerable amount of flourishing enterprises there. Hell, I took my car there to get painted cause they did the best work around. My work has employed some of their computer services numerous times and I've been affiliated with some of the activities of their own airport and flying school - yes, thay even have their own airport and flying school.
I do have a little insight in some of these issues. I've also attended special seminars and classes geared specifically to the understanding of our First Nations when it comes to recruitment and employment. I've ben exposed to different First Nations from Ontario to Vancouver Island as well. To say I have biases would be far from the truth. Objections to double standards? - you bet!!!!
 intheswim
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 8
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/23/2007 10:35:11 AM
I have to confess to being a bit surprised by many of the postings here, and not at all by others.
What no-one seems to have mentioned, or noticed, is that, CNR has nothing at all to do with the issue at hand. Nor, do it's customers.
My thinking is that they should be taking the fight to the government, meaning Ottawa and Queens Park.
To my way of thinking, it's patently illogical, to be doing things in this manner.
IMO...they'll lose more support, than will be gained, through actions like this.
 ttf650
Joined: 3/25/2007
Msg: 9
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/27/2007 3:30:27 PM

I’m not sure exactly the underlying issues with this “ rotational economic disruption campaign” since they were granted this land in 1793, a claim filed in 1995 and accepted valid in 2003.
It would appear the dispute at hand is regarding the illegal dumping of toxic materials in the quarry, the Ministry of Natural Resources ignoring the issues and profiting by the aggregates being removed from the aboriginal land.
I think the timing is quit interesting that it comes in response to a developers plan to build Condominiums using the materials from the quarry.
I guess time will tell and all the relevant issues will be discussed.
This demonstration is just part of the disruption, two other locations are slated to be disrupted; one is the Town of Deseronto and the Provincial Highway!
It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds
OUTSTANDING!!!! Someone has actually delved deep enough into the issues. I'd be interested to know who the actual developers are - Mohawk or other? There are a lot of very creative and successfull entrepreneurs from this Mohawk Band. If this same scenario were to take place outside of a First Nations domain and had different players involved, would the actions taken by these few to create these dissruptions still be looked at and treated the same way? I think not. Safe to say there would be intervention and charges filed. Do we as a nation condon this apparent application of a double standard of the law?
FWIW, the Mohawk peoples are not the only ones against these "dumpings". Other locals not part of the Mohawks are against this as well yet I don't see them initiating similar actions. Perhaps because they realize the possible consequences of such actions.
 ttf650
Joined: 3/25/2007
Msg: 10
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 4/27/2007 3:32:03 PM

i say "go Mohawks"
WOWWWWWW!!!!!
Can you say Oka??
 intheswim
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 11
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 5/9/2007 11:36:46 AM
Well, as of todays news, looks like they've got themselves some of that economic disruption coming back to them.

CNR has launched a civil suit for damages. I can only guarantee one thng about this, CNR has a lot more, in the way of lawyers and money, than do the Mohawks.

Life is like a Jalapeno pepper....what you do today will come back to burn your butt tomorrow!
 intheswim
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 12
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 5/12/2007 7:39:55 PM
cool...works for me ....if the shoe fits and all of that good stuff!

No one was arguing here, and, the story still has legs, as they say in the biz....

For the record, I agree that the land claims should have been settled ages ago.and, the great scams that were perpetrated upon the aboriginals were wrong.

Still, two wrongs do not a right, make! Targeting CNR or any other completely uninvolved third party, makes little sense.

People have displaced other people from their ancestral homes throughout all of history in every land on earth.

Should we, for the sake of agument, pick a certain time in history where all borders and lands should be rolled back to where they were at that time? How about the 12th century, or the 8th? Still...the disputes will continue.

As the saying goes, you can't roll back the clock! However, there have to be more productive ways of moving forward than this!

my 2 cents.
 Jim in NB
Joined: 8/2/2006
Msg: 13
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 8/2/2007 3:32:21 PM
Hard to beleive some of the posts on this thread - there was no won and lost - Natives and Europeans made treaties to live and grow together. There are a multitude of examples of how we both helped each other. We must all live up to letter and the spirit of these treaties. And we will - hopefully the momentum gained in resolving these issues continues to gain speed.

As for all the comments about hunting with bows and arrows, residental schools, problems adapting to parts of each others cultures, and all those other issues that are outside of the treaties - society grows over time and things change. Some of the more problematic issues have to be addressed and even compensating for - residental schools is a good example. We as a society working together have to realize that we should not be focussing on past issues but looking forward to future issues - and a big one is how natives can become more fully ingrained in Canadian society without loosing their heritage. Reserves are part of this issue - and it must be looked at from all points of the compass - whether the reserve is seen as a place to get away from the rush of modern urban society, a land base to work from and on and profit from, or whether reserves are actually holding back natives from becoming full beneficiaries of modern Canadian society. Big issue here and I sure don't have all the answers - heck I don't even have all the questions.

As for the day of protest in June. Having lived in Ontario, North Ontario, Saskatchewan and now New Brunswick and seen how in many places treaties have been ignored and native rights have been walked all over on - I am really suprised how mild the protests across Canada were.
 dgmac
Joined: 7/16/2007
Msg: 15
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 8/3/2007 9:56:46 AM
I find it interesting that the protests in Caledonia didn't start until the housing development was almost completed. Free houses anyone?
 actualizing
Joined: 4/11/2009
Msg: 16
Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 7/21/2009 6:32:09 PM
Wow....the lack of respect for our first nations peoples is appalling. Yes, we were born in Canada and yes we all live together. The Mohawks are the keepers of the fire. They are honouring a way of living that we really have no clue about. We should be educated. When the first peoples of a nation shout out to be heard, I really think it is wise to listen. Maybe we can learn something.
 onefreeguy
Joined: 7/24/2008
Msg: 17
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Mohawks protest land claims by blocking railways
Posted: 7/23/2009 6:16:32 PM

When the first peoples of a nation shout out to be heard, I really think it is wise to listen.


Perhaps, but does that mean that the rest of us should accede to threats of violence or extortion that would land any other group in jail in short order?


Maybe we can learn something.


Maybe what we should learn is that segregation of people's and different assignment of rights and responsibilities based on ancestral heritage does not work. It creates and perpetuates ghettos. It's not as evil as apartheid, and in some aspects that separation has been beneficial to First Nations people, but in other aspects it has only perpetuated hardships.
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