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 AUTHOR
 DRathbun
Joined: 5/23/2006
Msg: 1
To the masters...Page 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Hey everybody. I realize everyone here is trying to get together with someone, but I was hoping someone could answer my question. I know there are at least a few guys on this site who can approach a girl in a store, restraunt, wherever, and win her over. So I suppose Im wanting to ask all the guys who consider themselves very good with women if even after years of experience, do you still run into the typical "No Thank You"?
 MDNinja
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 2
To the masters...
Posted: 5/1/2007 12:34:39 PM
Who cares if they say no? It's always going to happen. You should be focusing on the positive. If they say no, it doesn't matter, you wouldn't want to date them anyways.

You have to think of yourself as the prize.
 bullielover62
Joined: 12/2/2006
Msg: 3
To the masters...
Posted: 5/1/2007 12:48:05 PM

So I suppose Im wanting to ask all the guys who consider themselves very good with women if even after years of experience, do you still run into the typical "No Thank You"?


oooooooo, I love this one!!!

I can't WAIT for the replies!

OK, got my magazine, my iced tea....aaaaaaannnnnd GO!
 wanderer1999
Joined: 2/10/2007
Msg: 4
view profile
History
To the masters...
Posted: 5/1/2007 3:49:11 PM

Hey everybody. I realize everyone here is trying to get together with someone, but I was hoping someone could answer my question. I know there are at least a few guys on this site who can approach a girl in a store, restraunt, wherever, and win her over. So I suppose Im wanting to ask all the guys who consider themselves very good with women if even after years of experience, do you still run into the typical "No Thank You"?


I'm very comfortable talking to women. In bars, in stores, on the street. It's more a question of the mood and how motivated I am that decides whether I'll talk to one or not.

That being said, you will get a mix of responses. Some will be polite, some will be brusque, few are very rude if you're respectful and have some wit.

Get used to the idea that women will say "No, thank you." Not every woman is single, not every woman is attracted to you, not every woman who is single is looking for someone to date, and not every woman is straight. Most importantly, not everyone has had a good day and that will color their mood as much as anything.

When a woman has had a long day at work/office/home, chatting up a stranger is usually the last thing on their mind. They may be tired, frustrated, distracted, or even emotionally distraught depending upon what has gone on in their lives.

And you, as an absolute stranger are seeking to intrude upon their "personal space" in an attempt to get to know them. They don't need to justify to anyone, especially You as a stranger how they're feeling that day. So be as conscious of them as possible. Approaching a random woman isn't about You, it's about THEM.

So how do you do it? There's nothing terribly fancy about it.

1) See a woman that you're interested in.
2) Walk up to her.
3) Strike up a conversation.
4) See where it goes.

Step 1, 2 and 4 are the easiest. The hardest is step 3.

When you strike up a conversation, it's best not to be pushy or overbearing. Tacky comments usually don't go over so well.

Striking up a conversation is composed of a couple basic things.

1) An opening. This is how you start the conversation. Essentially, as the opening line, it initiates the topic of the conversation, as well as the initial tone.

Pick a topic that is natural for the environment.

Here are some random examples...

-grocery store : I see you're looking at the xxx... do you know anything about xxx vs yyy?
-book store : That's looks like an interesting book. Have you read anything else by xxx?

In some environments there is no natural conversation opener, or you may find that nothing comes to mind. In those cases, being honest is always the best option. Just say what your intentions are (in the most polite, respectful and considerate way). It might be something like...

-store : I apologize for interrupting, but I was over in the other aisle looking at xxx and saw you walk by. I couldn't let you leave without at least introducing myself. My name is XXX.
-on the street : Excuse me. Sorry. I know this is a little awkward, and I apologize, but I love your (insert what you like) and wanted to talk to you before I lost the chance. (Be tasteful... things like dress/eyes/smile/etc. Don't be crude or tasteless.)

No matter how nice you are, some women will say "No, thank you" or seek to exit the conversation. Be considerate, thank them for their time and move on.

Nobody bats .1000, so get over it. Women will spend time with who they wish to, and nothing you say, hope or pray will change that. Chalk it up as another woman eliminated from the list of those with potential, and move on to concentrating on finding another one.

2) Fight or flight. Assuming there's a mutual conversation going on, at some point of the conversation, you need to make the decision as to whether the woman is genuinely interested, or merely being polite. If she's being polite, then you need to thank her for her time and politely extract yourself. Don't keep talking her ear off, don't try to "sell" yourself. If a woman decides that you're interesting enough, she'll keep talking to you and indicate it in her tone of voice, body language, etc. If she's cold, uninterested, or you think she's just being polite, then you're wasting your time. Leave the conversation on the moral high ground. You gave it a shot, and you missed. Now, assuming that all is going well and she's interested in you...

3) Putting yourself out there. This is the hard one for guys. This is where you take the conversation to the next step. You can ask if she's busy and would like to have a coffee, or if she'd like to have a seat and chat some more, or can even ask for the dreaded phone number depending upon the time and circumstances.

Being rejected by a woman who won't talk to you is one thing, being rejected by a woman that's already spent time chatting with you is a whole other can of beans. After all, you're cool, attractive and wonderful, and after that conversation Who wouldn't want to be with you?

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzt.

Wrong.

When that woman expressed conversational interest, she's just showing that she hasn't quite shut the door on you. Much like a guy checking out a car in a show room, she isn't sold just yet. The conversation was how she would get some more information about you in terms of your tone, diction, body language, conversational skills, physical chemistry, etc.

At any point in the conversation, she can decide that you're just not what she's looking for. So don't be too shocked if she says "No, thank you", gives you a false number, says "Sorry, you're not my type", or "I have to get going. Maybe I'll see you some other time."

Sorry, she just wasn't into you. Life sucks. Get over it. Move on with your life.

Politely thank her for her time, tell her that you appreciate and enjoyed the conversation, and wish her a good day.

4) See where it goes. Well, at this point you're either having a coffee/drink/chat with this woman, or you've got a real phone number and are going to call her. Then it's up to you.

Or, you've crashed and burned, are probably thinking of killing puppies, and are angry and bitter at the cruel hand the fates have handed you.

But Wait! There's hope!

You did politely thank her at the end of step 3, yeah? You did tell her how much you enjoyed her company and conversation and wished her a good day, right? RIGHT?

If you did, you have bought into the mini-dating lottery.

And what do I mean by the mini-dating lottery?

Quite simply, if a woman enjoyed her conversation with you, thought you were a nice, hopefully funny, and interesting guy, lots of things may happen the next time you see her.

a) She may introduce you to a friend! Yes, women know other women. LOTS of other women. And they talk to each other. A LOT. She may not have been the right woman, but she sure might know someone.

b) She may decide later that she likes you. Yes, there are stories of people who aren't attracted initially, but after seeing each other off and on over a period of time (like in a grocery store), suddenly "wake up" and develop chemistry. Yes, women do that. Don't count on it. Don't hope for it. Don't push it. Just stay polite, chat once in a while when you see her, and be considerate. You might just look different on another day.

c) She may have been lying!! Yes, she may have been interested and/or liked you, but you're a stranger! She doesn't know you from Adam. You randomly invaded her personal space. She has absolutely no reason to trust you. After all, you could be the dude from Deliverance or Psycho hiding out with the brussel sprouts. However, if she sees you a bunch of times over the course of weeks/months through normal accidental encounters and not in a creepy, raincoat stalker in the radishes kind of way, she just might decide that you're not an axe murderer and decide that you might be fun to date some time. However, as I said in the last part, Don't count on it. Don't hope for it. And Don't push it.

Always remember to be polite, courteous, and respectful of the women you're talking to. Always be aware that you're invading their personal space and intruding upon their personal/work time.

Never try to "sell" yourself, or stretch a conversation beyond it's comfortable life. Women will perceive it as desperate/needy. Not to mention, there's no reason to degrade yourself. If the woman hasn't realized that there's more to you than meets the eye, then you need to find one that does.

Finally, all this will only get you a date (hopefully). In the end, you still need to be able to "deliver the goods". That means all the responsibilities and obligations that come with being a partner.

In comparison, getting in the door is easy as pie when you compare it to making a relationship work.

Best of luck.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 5
To the masters...
Posted: 5/1/2007 6:57:26 PM
Re: Msg 7 - that is the one of the most well thought out, easy to follow, truthful, right on the money things I have ever seen here or anywhere else.

All single men who are looking to ever speak to the opposite sex should copy that and tack it to their refrigerator. I may take it myself for the next male friend who asks my advice.

Bravo dude!
 DRathbun
Joined: 5/23/2006
Msg: 6
To the masters...
Posted: 5/1/2007 9:08:24 PM
So, to know whether or not to ask for the number should be based off of the number of indicators of interests. For example, you leave out your name, and if she asks for it, then you know she is insterested. Can anyone think of any other Indicators?
 DrewBond007
Joined: 6/27/2006
Msg: 7
To the masters...
Posted: 5/1/2007 10:01:41 PM
Who cares? Just ask for her number. Getting rejected in new and funny ways is what being a male is about. And if you drink it can win you a ton of beers.
 DRathbun
Joined: 5/23/2006
Msg: 8
To the masters...
Posted: 5/2/2007 8:31:38 AM
Just tired of getting shot down.....
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 9
To the masters...
Posted: 5/2/2007 9:30:37 AM
Just tired of getting shot down.....

So is everyone else, but in order to get a yes, you have to get shot down a few times...what else can you do? It's either that or give up trying. Then it's a definite you'll meet no one.

There is no magic formula or pie chart or business plan that you can put into motion in order to get a positive response. The only thing you can do is expect to get shot down, and at some point you won't take it so personally. Until then you're gonna remain frustrated. Odds are for anyone who makes the first move that 1 or 2 out of every 10 might be interested...those are the breaks.

The men who are the masters know that getting turned down is part of the deal, they welcome it and don't take it personally, they aren't worried about having to be with someone or accepted by every member of the opposite sex to be worthy and they don't give up looking, but they don't look too hard.
 MDNinja
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 10
To the masters...
Posted: 5/2/2007 10:05:58 AM
I have to agree with Creativeguy. Message #7 is good but it needs some tweaking. Appologizing for interupting them is not very attractive. I too like to think I am bringing a little sunshine into their day. I also thought the opening lines were boring. I have had more success with ice breakers that are funny and show confidence. It's also good to playfully tease them during conversation. I usually ask them what they do for a living and then make fun of it, unless it's something like saving kids. Make 'em laugh.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 11
To the masters...
Posted: 5/2/2007 11:55:28 AM
yea.. it looks good on paper, and makes sense logically, but in real life, its all about the law of averages...

Actually no, it's pretty close to reality - at least for women. That's why we agree with it - you don't have to follow it and you won't get the same results, and you don't have to like it but it is what it is.

Thank you to msg 7, I may have to try your suggestions since this online thing has turned out to be a waste of time . That's not being negative, it's being FACTUAL.

Hopefully none of you people are trying to meet someone online only...this is a place to meet people but it's not a means to an end, AT ALL. In addition to this and maybe a few other sites, people should be actively putting themselves out there in the real world. This isn't the cake, this is like the ice cream that goes with the cake.

Appologizing for interupting them is not very attractive. I too like to think I am bringing a little sunshine into their day. I also thought the opening lines were boring. I have had more success with ice breakers that are funny and show confidence. It's also good to playfully tease them during conversation. I usually ask them what they do for a living and then make fun of it, unless it's something like saving kids. Make 'em laugh.
I appreciate someone apologizing or saying excuse me, it shows that they realize I might have been doing something important. I also don't respond well to being interrupted and then teased by a total stranger, who I may not have any interest in. Sense of humor could get misinterpreted real easily with initial conversation.

Women won't like someone we're not into any more with dazzling conversation, but taking something wrong could make us lose interest in someone we thought was cute before they spoke.
 Diamond Stunna
Joined: 4/12/2007
Msg: 12
To the masters...
Posted: 5/2/2007 12:14:20 PM
yes of course....its all about preference.

either you look better than them ..they don't like that.

they have this strong player vibe about you even though your sincere.

they don't do your ethinicity.

so of course...it happens to even the smoothest of smooths. lol
 hiheelsareOk
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 13
view profile
History
To the masters...
Posted: 5/2/2007 1:41:31 PM
Bravo on MSG-7

You put into words on how I have always conducted myself in public towards a female I wish to know. I am in no way some type of pick up artist. However through the years I have found that I got a lot of good come backs when faced with rejection. By the way the comparison to baseball about never bating 1000, or striking out more often than hitting a home run, holds true with me. One of the most rude statements said by women in stead of “no thank you” is “get lost” or “FO”. I found that remaining nice and simply saying, “I’m already lost, that’s why I came up to talk to you. Where is the nearest ATM?” “Where is the frozen foods, the store move it again”... or what ever excuse fits. I have had quite a few actually say while I was walking away; “Wait, I’m sorry, let me buy ya coffee, or let me buy ya lunch. And it went from there. There is no reason to take rejection badly, it is part of being a man, more importantly in being a gentlemen.
And by the way, if POF is the only avenue you have for finding someone. You haven’t even stepped up to the plate to bat yet.
 MDNinja
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 14
To the masters...
Posted: 5/3/2007 12:24:00 PM

I appreciate someone apologizing or saying excuse me, it shows that they realize I might have been doing something important.


This is where it is important to be able to recognize if the person is preoccupied or not. I don't think I should have to appologize for "interupting" you while you wait for the bus, or while deciding which cereal is healthier.

If the person is preocupied, I'll just set a time limit. Setting a time limit automatically shows that you respect their schedule, AND you have to be appologetic about it.

I don't think of myself as a niusance, so I don't appologize for being one. It's a totally different mindset that Creative guy and I are in compared to #7.


I also don't respond well to being interrupted and then teased by a total stranger, who I may not have any interest in. Sense of humor could get misinterpreted real easily with initial conversation.


So? What's your point? There is always risk involved. People get rejected right at "hello." Anything can get misinterpreted. It's important to know the difference between a joke and an attack on someone. If you know the boundries, then you should be ok.

Some people relate more to their work than others and are more open to the humour. For example if someone is in business, I will jokingly accuse them of taking over the world. If the person is a nurse or volunteers in africa for 8 months, I am going to be sensitive to that.

Body language and tone of voice as incredibily important contributors to how jokes are told. If you get those right, it minimizes the likely hood of people missinterpreting it.

But, back to my main point. Simply because someone "might" take things the wrong way, is not reason enough for me to stop doing what has worked for me and change who I am.


Women won't like someone we're not into any more with dazzling conversation, but taking something wrong could make us lose interest in someone we thought was cute before they spoke.


I agree but that doesn't mean I should stop being myself just because someone I just met two seconds ago might not like me.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 15
To the masters...
Posted: 5/3/2007 1:11:57 PM

This is where it is important to be able to recognize if the person is preoccupied or not. I don't think I should have to appologize for "interupting" you while you wait for the bus, or while deciding which cereal is healthier.

Oh, then my bad - I mistook the original post (Msg. 7) to mean they were literally interrupting something obvious like conversation, reading, whatever...

So? What's your point? There is always risk involved. People get rejected right at "hello." Anything can get misinterpreted. It's important to know the difference between a joke and an attack on someone. If you know the boundries, then you should be ok.

Well if they always know exactly what you mean and get your jokes, then it's not an issue. Some men are nervous and blur the lines a bit and get a reaction they weren't expecting, but apparently that's not you, so no worries.

But, back to my main point. Simply because someone "might" take things the wrong way, is not reason enough for me to stop doing what has worked for me and change who I am. I agree but that doesn't mean I should stop being myself just because someone I just met two seconds ago might not like me.

True, indeed. I guess it doesn't matter if you don't care either way how it turns out - but for those who do, it's just food for thought from a female's point of view. It is what it is, you don't have to consider it. If you already got your A game down, and they're lining up for ya, then by all means change nothing dude. Rock on.
 wanderer1999
Joined: 2/10/2007
Msg: 16
view profile
History
To the masters...
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:05:03 PM
Hrm, as always, there's a hotbed of opinions.


You don't ask "If she's busy" or "if she'd like to have a seat". You state it. "Let's grab a cup of coffee" or "let's have a seat". You take the lead, you don't ask for permission to take the lead. If she doesn't want to follow, she'll say so (although I wouldn't recommend doing anything further but getting the number initially).


Purely a stylistic and situational choice. Keep in mind, some women are more shy than others, some more or less forward. Come on too strong, and you're just as likely to end up with your quarry fleeing into the woods. Adjust what you're asking to what's appropriate to the situation and what fits your personality. If you're chatting to a woman who's definitely at work, the dynamic is different than when she's walking in a grocery store, at a seminar, or in a doctor's office. Personally, I prefer to try to go straight to a coffee/drink/meal versus asking for a number. A number is nice, but I'd rather take the time to know them right then if possible. If not, I'll see about a number.


"Always be aware that you're invading their personal space and intruding upon their personal/work time."

This is a rather subservient mind frame. I'd rather a mind frame that I'm bringing a little ray of sunshine into their lives for a brief moment or two.



This is where it is important to be able to recognize if the person is preoccupied or not. I don't think I should have to appologize for "interupting" you while you wait for the bus, or while deciding which cereal is healthier.

If the person is preocupied, I'll just set a time limit. Setting a time limit automatically shows that you respect their schedule, AND you have to be appologetic about it.

I don't think of myself as a niusance, so I don't appologize for being one. It's a totally different mindset that Creative guy and I are in compared to #7.


Sorry, this is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. If the person is doing something, even if it's just thinking about a cereal choice, you are interrupting them. I don't know about you, but I hate it when someone interrupts my train of thought. The fact is, you are invading their personal space, and to discount that is to assume that your time is more valuable than their time. Not to mention, what I wrote is not only for the cereal isle. It's for when you see people who may be at work, out with some girlfriends, walking the dog, shopping with her children, or shopping for clothes. In many of those cases, you will be actually interrupting them during an activity.

Maybe you are exceptionally capable of seeing a woman's moods, thoughts and emotions from a distance. If you are that skilled, I take my hat off to you and congratulate you. However, trying to read state of a human being of someone you hardly know is no easy task. I would rather err on the side of politeness myself. However, to each their own.

That being said, you're missing the point. Whether you choose to apologize or say "excuse me" is a question of context. More importantly, you're losing sight of who the target audience here is.

Either of you may very well be highly skilled, capable of verbal acrobatics that allow you to use teasing humor, sarcasm and taunts in a way that is non-offensive and effective, however, the average person who is looking towards this thread for advice is NOT that skilled.

For someone who is learning how to approach others, it is nearly always best to start with smaller, easy steps. As they gain experience, they will add their own flavor, style, and flourishes. As someone becomes more comfortable with approaching others, they will add their own personal touches, be able to push the edge, and to be more bold and forthright. However, since most men who'll profit from this thread aren't that practiced, I would not advise such boldness as it isn't going to be natural for them yet.


Body language and tone of voice as incredibily important contributors to how jokes are told. If you get those right, it minimizes the likely hood of people missinterpreting it.


And how many people do you know that can't get the timing of a joke right? It might be wiser to leave the sharper humor for those that are good at it -- which usually aren't the people who need help approaching others. Sort of like you don't let someone who doesn't know how to use a pistol practice with a machine gun. It just ends up with someone getting hurt.


I agree but that doesn't mean I should stop being myself just because someone I just met two seconds ago might not like me.


While this sentiment shows self-confidence, there is one flaw in this argument. By this idea, you shouldn't dress up for dates, you shouldn't put on cologne, you shouldn't open a door for your date, and you should be free to fart and burp in front of women you just met. There's a difference between being yourself and putting your best foot forward. Maybe you're an individual who doesn't ever put their best foot forward. If you are, I'd be interested to see how you do on job interviews.

The fact is, this is the very first time you're meeting a woman, and the impression she forms of you will weigh substantially in her mind. The costs of offending her are infinitely higher than the benefit of that fractional amount of increased understanding of your nature. If you go on a date, she will have all the time in the world to learn to understand your humor, it's unusual edge, it's quirkiness. However, in the context of a proper meeting, she will give it the benefit of the doubt and weigh it within your overall presentation.

Personally, I'd rather get to the first date and give her the opportunity to see me within a more complete context, than end up dateless with the satisfaction that I made no compromises in the cereal isle.


Oh, then my bad - I mistook the original post (Msg. 7) to mean they were literally interrupting something obvious like conversation, reading, whatever...


You didn't mistake the original post. That was designed to cover the entire gamut of situations, including ones where you're clearly interrupting someone in the middle of an activity. Of course, people should tailor it to fit their own individual situations.


is that from your experiences or a research from a book?


The best lessons in life come from experience. Of course, I seek insight wherever I can find it, whether it's observation, reading, conversations with other guys, and conversations with women I've known and met over the years.

I'm sure there may be books on this exact topic that are very good, I just haven't run into any myself. Most stuff that I have been referred to (like David DeAngelo) is only useful for preying on a particular psychological subset of the female population. Winning over an intelligent, secure woman is a far different beast than winning over an immature woman with esteem issues.

If you want to tailor your game to the most vulnerable women, then go nuts. It's just not for me. I have little to no interest in those women. I have no desire to play psychological games, manipulate their fears and insecurities, and prey upon their pschological injuries just to get some action.

On the other hand, I'm looking for a life partner -- so getting involved with fling after fling is counterproductive for me.

Your mileage may vary.


for the life of me I cannot understand why you are single


Thank you for the compliment.

To be honest, I've only been seriously dating for about the last 6 months, and the first couple of months were mostly observing the current bar scene dynamic (I had been out of it for a long time, so wanted to see what had changed), establishing a search team (you need to let friends/family/acquaintances Know that you are looking, as well as give some idea of what you are looking for), as well as considering my options in terms of activities and avenues that I could pursue in order to increase my exposure to the population of appropriate women.

So far, it's working out nicely. No shortage of potential dates, though it seems like modern women definitely have a shortage of time. Does anyone else remember when playing phone tag only applied to work?

Hopefully, I'll see some positive results with 12 to 24 months.
 MDNinja
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 17
To the masters...
Posted: 5/5/2007 9:44:35 PM

While this sentiment shows self-confidence, there is one flaw in this argument. By this idea, you shouldn't dress up for dates, you shouldn't put on cologne, you shouldn't open a door for your date, and you should be free to fart and burp in front of women you just met. There's a difference between being yourself and putting your best foot forward. Maybe you're an individual who doesn't ever put their best foot forward. If you are, I'd be interested to see how you do on job interviews.


That is a leap in logic. The fact is you can be yourself AND put your best foot forward. I do dress up for dates, but I will never ever wear clothes that I hate, no matter how nice they are. When I do put my best foot forward, it is still with in the context of who I am as an individual.

When I dress up, wear cologne, refrain from farting, ect... that is really more for my sake than it is for their's. I am not out to impress anybody. I think that if you are out to impress people it will either come off as insecure or eventually you won't be meeting their expectations and the relationship will fade.

The most important thing is to be genuine. I don't see what the big deal is about not getting a date with a women. Are you going to die if she rejects you? If not, then I'd rather be rejected sooner, rather than after investing time, money and emotion into the relationship.


The fact is, this is the very first time you're meeting a woman, and the impression she forms of you will weigh substantially in her mind. The costs of offending her are infinitely higher than the benefit of that fractional amount of increased understanding of your nature. If you go on a date, she will have all the time in the world to learn to understand your humor, it's unusual edge, it's quirkiness. However, in the context of a proper meeting, she will give it the benefit of the doubt and weigh it within your overall presentation.


Some of that is true but you have to understand is that she is not thinking about this cognatively. She isn't going to decide to like you. You either turn her on or you don't. Women don't decide who they are attracted to anymore than you decide that getting kicked in the shin hurts.

You have to consider that your logic works both ways. If you play it safe, she's is going to think of you like that for a longer time, and associate you with that ideal more so, the longer you play into it. What ever qualities you exihibit after the initial meeting are going to be measured against the qualities you exihibited at first contact. So why not be genuine and take bigger risks? Bigger risks yield bigger rewards.


The costs of offending her are infinitely higher than the benefit of that fractional amount of increased understanding of your nature.


They're indefinitely higher? I think not. Would you care to list those "costs?"


For someone who is learning how to approach others, it is nearly always best to start with smaller, easy steps. As they gain experience, they will add their own flavor, style, and flourishes. As someone becomes more comfortable with approaching others, they will add their own personal touches, be able to push the edge, and to be more bold and forthright. However, since most men who'll profit from this thread aren't that practiced, I would not advise such boldness as it isn't going to be natural for them yet.


I do see the benefit from this, but in some contexts I don't think it will work, and can be counter productive. Some times a big step is going to have to be taken for any progress to be made. When I first learned how to approach women, I never approached women that I didn't find attractive, or thought of as "safe." That is the opposite of what some people would say to do. I always made it a point to try and approach the woman who I thought was the most attractive woman. I made it a point (and still do) to take steps a little bigger than what I am comfortable with.

The other point I want to make is that if you don't occasionally take a bigger step, you could regain that fear of taking things to the next level.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I do think what you are doing does have merit. And that is the beauty of anything, there is no one way to do anything. The stuff that you do is probably working for you and that's awesome, but it's not going to work for everyone. Creativeguy and I have had success with our styles of approaching women. There really isn't a right and wrong way to approach people when you meet atleast basic levels of human decency and social interaction.

Just a few random thoughts on dating and life: My martial arts instructor once told me a couple of things (about life ) that have resonated with me since I heard them. One time he said, "If you see something you like, you should go for it." And another time he said "The piece of advice I can give you is to be comfortable with yourself, do what you are passionate about and work hard to make it better." I this advice has helped me sort of advice has helped me out so much, I can't even tell you how much.
 wanderer1999
Joined: 2/10/2007
Msg: 18
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History
To the masters...
Posted: 5/6/2007 7:04:13 AM
The techniques of how to approach women are so varied in their application, that we could probably debate the finer points forever, so I'm not going to engage in a debate of technique, however, I will address two points.


Some of that is true but you have to understand is that she is not thinking about this cognatively. She isn't going to decide to like you. You either turn her on or you don't. Women don't decide who they are attracted to anymore than you decide that getting kicked in the shin hurts.

You have to consider that your logic works both ways. If you play it safe, she's is going to think of you like that for a longer time, and associate you with that ideal more so, the longer you play into it. What ever qualities you exihibit after the initial meeting are going to be measured against the qualities you exihibited at first contact. So why not be genuine and take bigger risks? Bigger risks yield bigger rewards.


Actually, I would argue that it's not a question of whether you "turn her on or not", but actually the opposite, whether you "turn her off or not" that is most relevant here.

In my experience, most women already know within the first handful of seconds whether they have any interest in you at all. If there is no attraction, no amount of verbal acrobatics will improve your chances. However, if there is an attraction, you can mess it up (as has been stated by women on PoF so many times).

So let's think of it this way.

If you bring the edgier sides of your personality, it will not help with a woman who is not attracted to you. So there's no upside here.

If you bring the edgier sides of your personality, it *might* marginally improve the chances of a 1st date *if* she likes/enjoys it. So there's a minimal potential upside here, assuming she was right on the line of deciding whether to date you (though from what I've seen, very few women are "right on the line" in terms of knowing whether they want to go out with you or not).

If you bring the edgier sides of your personality, it will *definitely* destroy the chances of a 1st date if it offends her. Substantial, definable downside. If your mistimed joke offends 1/3 of women, that's 1/3 of your potential dating pool.

Why is it SO important that you get a 1st date?

If every woman you approach is potentially the right woman, then you should want to get every one to a 1st date, as that's where you can fully assess each other whether you have the qualities that will lead to a relationship. If you offend her (either due to a slip on your part, or a misinterpretation on her part because she's had a bad day, etc), then you have completely lost your chance to explore a future with this woman.

IE, theoretically, the potential Ms. Right has now been run off because you decided to walk the edge and either slipped, or caught her at the wrong time with your humor. In this case, the early misstep = catastrophic loss.

Even if it's a low probability you would not want to risk it, in the same way that it's a low probability that your house burns down but you buy fire insurance anyway. Not because you're worried that there will be a fire, but because the downside *if* it happens is Catastrophic and Unrecoverable. If you miss that Ms. Right, you may *never* find her again, and if you do, there's no telling how long it would take to find another. It could be months, years, even decades. If you're not sure about how convincing this argument is, the men reading this should ask themselves this question -- How long have you been single?

On a date, you've got a substantial amount of time to present various sides of yourself. Even if a joke offends her, she will hopefully have seen enough of your entire personality that she can give it the weight it deserves. She can look at your generous, intelligent, charming nature, your work ethic, goals, interests and desires as well as your sense of humor. If your humor is enough to be a deal breaker in spite of your other traits, then odds are you were a marginal fit anyway. Unless you happen to be Andrew Dice Clay, it's pretty hard to completely alienate a woman who has taken the time to know you just through edgy humor.

In this case, your increased risk of failure has no real upside. As in business, more risk does NOT necessarily equal more reward. In business, theoretically increased risk *should* be compensated with increased reward, however this is often untrue across a broad spectrum of businesses and investments. Enron was big risk with no reward. Global crossing was big risk with no reward. In this case, big risk does not help in getting a better relationship.

This isn't about playing it safe, it's about timing. Of course you bring your humor to the table, but you don't necessarily "drop" it on her before you have a chance to really meet any more than you should talk about your ex before you ask for her number. To do so is to unnecessarily gamble with the potential upside of finding that right person. How much would you want to gamble with that?


I do see the benefit from this, but in some contexts I don't think it will work, and can be counter productive. Some times a big step is going to have to be taken for any progress to be made. When I first learned how to approach women, I never approached women that I didn't find attractive, or thought of as "safe." That is the opposite of what some people would say to do. I always made it a point to try and approach the woman who I thought was the most attractive woman. I made it a point (and still do) to take steps a little bigger than what I am comfortable with.


When I said small steps, I never said that people should approach people who they are not attracted to. I mean small steps in the technical sense. You learn and practice a basic approach to become more proficient. As you become more proficient, your confidence will grow (as your success increases). At some point, as it becomes more natural you will relax more and begin to improvise.

When you are successful, fear becomes less and less a part of the equation as you have a track record of experience to draw on. We fear the unknown, not the areas where we have skill and proficiency. Just as the fear of public speaking disappears with practice, so does the fear of approaching women.

As I'm sure your martial art instructor would say, learn how to stand before you learn how to punch. Learn how to punch before you learn how to kick. Everything is built on foundations. And always remember, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Best of luck to all.
 MDNinja
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 19
To the masters...
Posted: 5/6/2007 11:32:41 PM
If you are approaching a stranger I think it's more appropriate to think of her attraction levels, while she is formulating them(in those few first seconds), as going from ZERO(not knowing you at all) to how ever much you make her feel when she first notices you. The more you make her feel in the beginning will allow you an easier time to make her feel more attraction later on. It's a lot like the law of motion that states an object already in motion can accelerate much easier than an object trying to accelerate from a stopped position.

When I approach a woman, I feel that there is already a connection there, that she will enjoy my company and my humour. A "connection" isn't a tangible thing, it's just an emotional attachment that two people feel. If one person already feels that connection, it will make it a lot easier for the other person to feel that connection. When I approach someone, the attraction is already set in motion, (sometimes it's build up so much that women will approach me), so it becomes easier to build momentum.

But in the first paragraph in I said it's like making her going from 0-60, well yes, but I don't go down to zero. I keep the attraction car moving at a pace that she is comfortable at jumping in.

The dating pool is extremely large. There are literally 10's(possibly 100's) of millions of single women arround the world. If my dating pool is cut down by a third, I'd still be ok with only being able to date about 60 million women. But in the event I don't become super rich, and can only live in one city, let's say Toronto, which probably has about 500,000 women I'd consider dating. Of those 500, 000 women, let's say I could get a date with 1/5 of those women. I really don't have the time or the money to go on 100, 000 first dates. My point is that there is a lot of women out there, so much so, that even someone as picky as me (I am really picky) still has an ample amount of women to choose from.

I think it'll be harder on noobies to have to worry about screwing up if she's the "one" or "Ms. Right." I tend to think about it in terms of seeing how far things will go and if it doesn't workout, then atleast I got some more experience. If she says yes, then you don't have to worry about if she is ms right, (just be confident she is), and if she says no, then you shouldn't worry about it either because there isn't anything you can do.

I am happy single or in a relationship. People recognize that and they want to get a piece of it. So I can take it or leave it, about being in a relationship with Ms Right. I have a great family and friends, so meeting would be like icing on a cake. But if I don't meet her, I am still a happy camper. That's probably the number one thing I can tell anyone, work on their happyness and confidence in themself, and don't let those rely on other people and dating. Confidence and self-esteem has to come from yourself.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 20
To the masters...
Posted: 5/17/2007 1:46:00 PM

all due respect betty, it is about the law of averages... if your very good looking , its easy, if your average or below, its not... The reality is, women, just like the guys, are about the visual, they want to be approached by someone they think is physically attractive, if your not, no matter how funny, polite, or creative you are in your approach ...she will shoot your ass down... she might be nice about it, but down you will go none the less.... so it is about the law of averages ....just like this site... email enough, and someone will respond... go to any busy mall, or club, or coffeshop, whatever, and approach enough women and eventually someone will respond favorably, its kinda like telemarketing, or mail order sales, you can expect a 3% response.

You won't get an argument out of me on that. No disrespect taken. Of course you have to work your numbers, of course both men and women want to be approached by someone they find attractive. I'd say it's more of a 10-20% out of every hundred that will be initially interested for the person who initiates, and from there it's just a matter of common ground, availability and smaller details. And I don't think it has anything to do with looks, as everyone finds something totally different attractive.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 21
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To the masters...
Posted: 5/18/2007 5:23:51 AM
MDNinja, you are so right.If I can come up with clever one-liners, and just have some fun with them, and be relaxed and myself, women seem to eat it up.
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