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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Does God exist?      Home login  
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 Musicphilosophy
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 8
Does God exist?Page 1 of 245    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

Thing is if God exists then so does the Devil.


Why? That's a heck of an assumption, IMO.
 dead®obin0002
Joined: 6/2/2006
Msg: 9
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/2/2007 8:01:55 PM
to answer the ?, we should first define God - I'll take the easy route and look for it in a dictionary -
noun [S not after the]
(in especially Christian, Jewish and Muslim belief) the being which made the universe, the Earth and its people and is believed to have an effect on all things


ok, so if God is in the dictionary, then at least he/she exists as an idea - the thing is, this idea of God has changed an almost infinite amount of times over the course of human history. I am not a History major, but I believe myself correct in stating that the Ancient Greeks and the Aztecs (just to name a few) had an endless pantheon of Gods. The idea of God as we know it today has itself evolved over many, many years

what if, for example, the Aztecs somehow managed to defeat the Old World regime and keep (even spread) their system of Gods? what would the majority of the population be worshipping today? hmmm...interesting ?, and it makes me want to pose even more hypothetical ?s

bottom line is this - God as we know him/her today is only the current trend, and will be significantly different in the distant future depending on who conquers who and what ideals are forced unto others

I believe man made God, out of ignorance and fear
 2findU
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 11
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History
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 8:53:09 AM
I think God's existance is entirely dependent on one's beliefs. Personally, I don't believe there is a God.
 ordinary-kent
Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 12
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 9:07:09 AM
But does it matter? Say, one whole-heartedly agrees and follows everything the bible says. But he/she also insists that the so-called 'God' ONLY represents a body of knowledge accumulated through centuries of scholarly work.

Clearly, the actual physical existence of 'God' doesn't matter to this person. Why does it matter to us so much? Do we want a whole bunch of hypocrats who prey with the loudest voice and then turn around to commit the most horrific crime against children, or do we want this fictitous person? That ought to prove God's existence is NO LONGER essential. It's GOd's teaching that is essential.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 13
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 9:09:22 AM
Something of a pointless question actually. God[s] are a matter of faith. By their very nature; they cannot be defined in an objective, scientific fashion, as that would entail the application of testable definitions, and thus limits. A defined, limited god is no longer a god.

This therefore creates [or should create] three basic camps:

The gnostic, who will believe, regardless of any "evidence"
The atheist, who will disbelieve, regardless of any "evidence"
The agnostic, who will be guided by the evidence [although there can be none either way]

Thus, the only one who can answer the question is the one asking it. They are the only one whose criteria apply.

Apart from that, some of the OP's ponderings just don't make much sense.
 Atlantid
Joined: 4/27/2007
Msg: 14
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 9:46:18 AM
After skimming through the thread a few things must be considered:

If there is an omnipotent god then there can be no counter weight (devil). If a counter weight exists then god isn't omnipotent. So there's a clear contradiction. (I'm not familiar with Judaism and Islam's take on the devil, and so my point reflects on Christianity). Contradictions can only be accepted through faiht. Faith isn't based on reality and therefore it's counterproductive.

I'm an Atheist but I do respect Deism for the fact it's the only view point explaining the existence of a god that appears rational. I've noticed the other major Christian sects have adopted some characteristics of Deism, or maybe it's just individual thinkers I've known outside of the mainstream of their respected sects. What I find interesting about Deists purport is that there is a rational order to the world. Everything involves a cycle (think nature). It's hard to accept that a rational existence came by chance. But although Deism presents a good argument I can't accept the belief but rather just consider it since I need tangible evidence for an existence of a god. However, that brings up another problem. Would I be able to recognize evidence of the existence of a god in any shape or form? My mind wouldn't be able to grasp it if such a god exists. I have a poorly though out theory that if there is a god it will be proven through mathematics. Mathematics is the language of the universe and the basis of logic. I suck at math so I wouldn't be the one opening up and locked doors
 ordinary-kent
Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 15
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 12:16:03 PM
It may be of interest to some: religious groups tried to force Einstein to 'come clean' regarding his "stand" on religion. Here's the story I read:

His theory on relativity is an (extraordinary) extension of classical mechanics. It has to adopt one of its central theses, determinism. As was worked out so beautifully by him, Einstein does not believe in chance (so, resulted in great debates with the quantum theoriests). But he claimed himself a very regligious person. Yet, he insisted that - "if the God we prey consumed all days monitoring everyday's account of human affairs and the loyalty of his creation based on his philosophy, then he/she will not be my God." The formation of nature, universe is a miracle to the genuius (and all). The mechanism of that creation is his God. Of course, we are part of that grand (and continuing) formation. When narrow it down to our species, recent studies in neural science suggests that clashes in reglious beliefs (from mild form of idea debates to extremitism) may one day be understood as manifestation of 'plasticity' of the human brain. For thees reasons, I am still very puzzled by the relevance of the subject... But of course, scentifically, it would be an interest investigation of the existence of such a 'being.' Once we reach there, inevitably, we are going to ask the same: who's beind God? I mean scientifically...
 LoneWolf999
Joined: 3/3/2007
Msg: 17
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:12:27 PM

Where do they live? Where is Heaven? Is it beyond our universe?


The answer is easy Barewolf, they are all living just outside the reach of man's understanding of the universe. For instance in ancient times it was thought the stars were the light from heaven and hell of course was just under the earth. The earth from which molten lava spills when there was a breach in the gates of hell. (By the way this problem was easily solved by offering saiten a little sacrifice.) Now that man has proved this is not the case and the earth is in fact round, they all got up and moved. They will always remain at the edge of our understand and capacity to comprehend the universe. As we take a step forward in our understanding they will of course take a step back. So that they stay just outside the reach reason but within the reach of our ignorance. Yes this is also where the boogey man lives too.

If I state a premise it has no basis in fact unless I provide PROOF. But somehow heaven and hell along with the lords of those paces are exempt from PROOF. After all it is a matter of FAITH.

What is FAITH??
Faith: belief that is not based on proof.
but
Ignorance: lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

See some similarities?

So if Faith -> Ignorance then can anybody use any sense of logic to prove god exists. The answer time and again is NO. (I know there is bunch of you who thinks you can provide proof, but after a long argument will come back to the same thing. “Its a matter of Faith”)

Now we come to the wonderful counter argument "prove that my imagination is not real". In truth I cant. But if you provide enough details I can poke it full of holes.

How about a hypercritical. If I told you have disease that will kill you in exactly 3 days and there is no one on earth that can prove that you don't. What do you do? Live as if you were going to die in 3 days? I think not. You would demand proof or ignore it as ramblings of a mad man. This would be the reasonable thing to do. Then why not when it comes to god?

Oh, 1louiscyfer you say
we continue to exist on a different plain...
. As what? Energy? If you are saying you are moving on to another plain as energy, then from the perspective of this plane the energy that makes you up is disappearing (IE: being destroyed). Is this not in contradiction of your premise ("Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed...")?

Ok, everyone I put to sleep, WAKE UP!

Just in case anybody does have proof that god exists (NOT FAITH BUT PROOF). I would LOVE to hear it.
 Ender
Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 18
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 6:06:48 PM
All matter and energy is made up of the same subatomic particles.

All matter and energy are interchangable given the right circustances.

Some force holds these particles together and gives them form.


To me, that signifies an existence of some type of "god".....but I'm a bit of a head case.
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 19
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 6:46:19 PM
to ask 'Does god exist?'....one must first ask 'why do we [and our universe] exist?'

........ask yourself if we (or if matter that we are comprised of) orchestrated our(its) own existence!............if your answer is YES, then you will be forced to come up with an 'air-tight' explanation as to what the impetus is(was) for that to occur and the reason for it!!!!.................if your answer is NO then you automatically deferred it to a creator!
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 20
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/3/2007 7:14:59 PM
Your own belief is apparent in that post. It is logically flawed. It assumes that two things falsely:

The argument assumes that existence MUST be intentional ["orchestrated"]. There's no reason to believe that is so. It is an assumption which arises from a need to have a concrete and understandable explanation.

The second false assumption is a that an "air-tight" explanation is required. That is ludicrous. The alternative is certainly not air-tight. You can't prove any gods exist, you cannot prove they are directly responsible for anything. In fact, you need not prove anything - you can simply say "the gods made it so". You are saying, in essence, that the alternative to incomplete evidence is to choose no evidence at all!

This seems to be the entire reason for belief in deities of any sort - to provide an understandable explanation for things which cannot be explained [at present]. Throughout history, "the gods" have been an explanation for a vast number of things we can now explain scientifically. The irony is, invoking God as an explanation doesn't actually help - you have just created an explanation which is by definition greater and more complex than the universe. If you can't explain or understand everything in the universe, how do you explain God?
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 29
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/4/2007 4:58:15 AM
at froqO


The argument assumes that existence MUST be intentional ["orchestrated"]. There's no reason to believe that is so. It is an assumption which arises from a need to have a concrete and understandable explanation.


........no it doesn't!........if existence has no intention then i'll ask you to tell me why there is ALL THAT IS, when its just as easy(if not easier) for IT not to have been there at all to begin with!


The alternative is certainly not air-tight. You can't prove any gods exist, you cannot prove they are directly responsible for anything. In fact, you need not prove anything - you can simply say "the gods made it so".


.......the entity which INTENDED for all that is, lies outside our dimensions of understanding, therefore it is not subject to being proved or disproved.....nor did i insinuate that it could be.
 Musicphilosophy
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 34
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/4/2007 3:58:12 PM

full marks for spotting the correct combination out of the permutations possible.


Excellent *gets out proveable God test kit*
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 35
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/4/2007 4:10:22 PM

"Does God exist?"


No.
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 36
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/4/2007 4:16:13 PM
"Don't make me come down there!" ~ God

If there is a 'god' he/she/it must be a twisted, selfish, petulant, jealous child with a sick sense of humor.

"can't have any other gods before me or I will strike you down", etc.

3 or 4 of the "10 comamndments" seem to be all about ego..

all-powerful & all-loving? obviously not both..
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 37
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/4/2007 11:26:52 PM
@ callmefish

.... ....for a very insightful post.

.......at first i just scrolled by it after reading a few lines sensing that it was just another (of many) outlandish rant by some poor twisted fool, but on reading further, i see that your words "clothe" a deeper wisdom that few pple seem to been able to bring across!

it seems that you have found your path to enlightenment.........stay on it, for 'the road goes ever on'...!
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 43
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/7/2007 7:06:27 AM
God, gods, karma etc. are all subjects of religion, not science. If one is asking for proof or why, then one is asking a question of science, not religion. Religion is about beleifs that do not require definition, observation, and conclusion nor does it have to be flexible as science is. Science makes conclusions based on evidence but is always open to change those conclusions. Religion may change due to influence from science but it doesn't have to as it is a belief system. Science and religion both serve society for good and bad.
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 47
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/7/2007 2:58:18 PM
the tale of an 'all-loving' god is very difficult to reconcile with child deaths, war, murder, torture & related agony & pain, etc. ,etc.

He loved his own Son so much that he ensured that he was mercilessly tortured & killed..

oh, I get it now!

yes, yes, I know. the bible-bangers will say that 'god does not take control over free will' or some other B.S., etc.
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 62
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/8/2007 8:26:40 AM

there has to be a god or nothing means anything. there has to be a purpose to my life. It scares me to death to think that all i am is a biodegratable mass. there has to be more. as far as we know to date we are the only living species in our known galaxy to question our own mortality and that fact to me is an encouraging thought.


Hardly convincing. That is analgous to people who say the US invasion in Vietnam or in Iraq "has to" mean "something" ..or all their soldiers died in vain.

what kind of "proof" is that? so now the original North Vietnam occupies "all" of Vietnam..so what did it all mean?
 Sadness
Joined: 1/22/2007
Msg: 69
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/8/2007 4:55:37 PM
I'm not a scientist, but I play one on TV...uh...Okay I don't even do that, but I am a very logical thinker. So lets think about this for a second.
While it is true that there are systems of evolution that can be scientifically verified, that does not rule out the idea that evolution has been God-guided. In fact, the complexity of the universe, the ecosystem, and even our own human bodies suggests that existence is intentional rather than accidental, regardless of whether the Darwinists want to believe it or not. But lets talk about some systems of evolution.
Lets say that I decided to plant a flower garden in my backyard. I wouldn't be able to do it by setting off a bunch of fire crackers (big bang) where I want the garden to be. I would need to plant the seeds, water them, and pull the weeds. The evolutionary process from seedlings in the dirt to a beautiful flower garden would need to be guided by me every step of the way. If I left the garden unattended, weeds would grow and choke out the flowers. Oh sure, there would still be plant matter there, but there would also be chaos instead of order. I believe the same principle applies to the universe since it is much larger and more complex than a flower garden.

Question : If I were to detonate a bomb in a junk yard full of used auto parts, would this result in the formation of a really nice car?

Answer : Nope. I would need to learn about auto mechanics, gather the correct parts and the tools, and build the car in order for it to exist.

Question : If I were to detonate a bomb in my garage, which is a really big mess right now, would the explosion put the tools in the tool box, place the other scattered items on the shelves, and take out the trash?

Answer : Nope. In fact, I would need to call the fire department to keep the rest of my house from burning down, if there was anything left of it anyways.

Darwinists and creationists alike can throw around all kinds of crazy scientific data. But for me, the simple truth about order and chaos that can be observed right here in my own environment speaks volumes more than any amount of scientific data.
Your mortal scientists have been about discovering the matter that makes up the fabric of the universe. But they have failed to understand the implications of what the existence of such matter actually means.

Question : Does God exist?

Answer : Yep.
 Concertina
Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 71
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/8/2007 7:00:30 PM

Look at your computer, does it exist? It was made correct? Do you know who made it? Did u see them make it? How do you know they exist? The computer exists


Guess what? I can go to a computer manufacturer and actually WATCH a person make the computer.



Look in the mirror? Do you exist? You were made correct? Do you know who made you? Did you see yourself made? How do you know the creator exist? You exist!


This is a fallacy. Critics of creationism/intelligent design don't believe humans were "made."
 nickg45
Joined: 12/16/2006
Msg: 72
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/8/2007 7:22:54 PM
If there is a god like perspective, then only god would be fit to occupy it, while we must remain firmly rooted on earth. We can try to satisfy our curiosity, but we must be satisfied with who and what we are.
 SteveHD
Joined: 3/9/2005
Msg: 78
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 8:33:05 AM

there has to be a god or nothing means anything. there has to be a purpose to my life. It scares me to death to think that all i am is a biodegratable mass.


Let's say there is no Deity giving your life purpose...now what. Everyday that you wake up, you're given or you have, an opportunity to do something with that time.

The flip side is that this Deity created you and everyone else to give Itself purpose and that is everyone's purpose.

Flip it again and you and everyone else created this Deity to give themselves purpose and that is the Deity's purpose.

See a coin can have three sides. <---that's about as deep as I get people...sorry.
 Sadness
Joined: 1/22/2007
Msg: 80
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 6:20:25 PM
MarkII and TheDerful,
Your posts, although intelligent and well written, did not in any way debunk my bomb and flower garden analogies. I don't think that either one of you understood the concept that I was trying to put forth.
Further more, what makes you think that I have not looked at the evidence? I can and do read. Forgive me if I find your evidence to be unconvincing for the purpose of debunking the idea of intelligent design. And yes, I am aware that evolution is NOT random. I'm not as ignorant as you would assume.
Take a closer look at my flower garden analogy. It is true that the seedlings would grow into flowers even if the garden is left unattended. That is living proof of an unguided evolutionary process at work. Also, the fact that the seelings will grow into beautiful flowers demonstrates that evolution is not random. Good evidence against intelligent design, right?
Wrong!!! The problem with that line of thinking is that you would focus on the evolutionary process of the plant matter rather than look at the actual garden itself. In doing so, you give yourself only a microscopic veiw of a telescopic realm, which causes you to make assumptions in much the same way that you would accuse proponents for intelligent design of doing.
When you look at the whole garden instead of just focusing on the plant matter, you will see a precision that the evolutionary process of the seedlings could not bring about. If left unattended the precision would not be there. There would be a bunch of grass and weeds with a few flowers mixed in. It takes a guiding hand to plant the right seeds, give them water, and keep the weeds in check. This makes it possible for the evolutionary process of the seedings to result in something even more orderly than just the existence of the flowers themselves. It makes it possible for it to be an actual flower garden.
Evolutionary processes will work if left unattended. But it takes a guiding hand to make all the right evolutionary processes work together to result in something much larger and more precise...like our solar system or our ecosystem.
 Sadness
Joined: 1/22/2007
Msg: 82
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 8:11:38 PM
TheDerful,

Why would a garden of weeds be more successful than a flower garden? If a flower garden was what was intended, then a garden of weeds would be a failure not a success.
And you are dead wrong by saying the solar system and the ecosystem are like a bunch of weeds trying to adapt. The precision that can be observed in these systems clearly suggests that my flower garden theory is a much more accurate metaphor.
Also, supporters of intelligent design attack perceived flaws in Darwinian evolution because they have questions that the scientific data has failed to answer. If a flaw is perceived, then a flaw is present and should be brought to attention
So you think I make myself sound ignorant because I come to my conclusions based on what I can see and verify for myself rather than on a bunch of scientific data? Since you seem to know so much about science, then I would have to assume that you also know that you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God by using scientific data. The question we are discussing is "Does God exist?". Since science cannot really answer this question, that makes it more of a philosophical issue. Therefore, we must turn to philosophy and common sense if we sincerely desire an answer. That is why my bomb and flower garden metaphors work so well on this topic.
Please understand that I am not trying to debunk the scientific data. I am simply pointing out that this is a question that scientific data cannot answer.
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