Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Abortion & Politics      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 gentlepatrick
Joined: 3/26/2006
Msg: 2
view profile
History
Abortion & PoliticsPage 1 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
not my vote - there are bigger issues
 BoggsWayneGacy
Joined: 4/18/2007
Msg: 5
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/15/2007 10:59:52 PM
I don't think the murder/suicide rate is so cut and dry, but it is an issue to consider. I myself would probably lose the will to live if a girl I was with were to become pregnant. Children are the pits and the only thing worse are the parents who do everything in their power to make everyone around them as miserable as they are.

The belief in choice is not only something I STRONGLY consider while looking for someone to vote for, It's also something I am extremely considerate of at the beginning of a relationship. I don't want kids until I'm, at least, 30.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 6
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/16/2007 3:53:50 AM
Any candidate who is not pro-choice, will simply not get my vote at all, regardless of what party he belongs.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 8
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/16/2007 10:35:57 AM
The issue is far too valuable to the right to ever be seriously tampered with. It mobilizes the far right, but because it is constitutionally protected it doesn't mobilize the other side. Since '68 there have been exactly 3 Supreme Court Justices appointed by a Democratic President. 40 years of virtual monopolistic control over Supreme Court appointments, yet Roe v Wade was decided and upheld several times.

It's an issue the Republicans can exploit in election after election so don't look for any change in the law, or in the courts.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 13
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/18/2007 7:38:17 AM
Having worked many political campaigns I have observed that Pro-Lifers are virtually the only people who ask candidates about their position on abortion.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 14
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/19/2007 10:58:51 AM
The question "Are you in favor of abortion?" is kinda like "are you in favor of the war?" They are the yes/no litmus tests type questions that inspire and keep us in this 50/50, blue/red, lib/con, dem/rep, 2 party political system. (Not a good thing in my opinion)

Who the hell is in favor of either of those? Brings up images of the person that just can't wait to have either of them and celebrating the day of the events.
Maybe more appropriate questions would be "how would you help reduce the number of abortions?" and "How would you prevent and/or end current wars?"

"those of us who are pro life the abortion issue has nothing to do with a woman's sexual health. It's not about trying to invade her privacy. It's about having a high regard for an innocent human life."

Absolutely- well said.

It's about defending the defenseless.
Protecting unborn children from their mothers and those participating in harming and killing them---- i.e.: violent offenses on pregnant women includes their unborn babies.
Who's rights trump who ---- baby vs. mother
A woman's right to full control of her body and physical well-being, absolutely.
A woman's right ,solely at her discretion, to determine the death of another human being, nope.
No one person without immediate direct physical threat has that right nor should they.

The assertion that it's only the crazed Christian right-wingers trying to dominate and subjugate women is wrong.
The assertion that a fetus is not yet a person is wrong.

Until constitutional rights extend to the unborn, this will be political fight, a fight for the rights of the unborn, male and female.

We as individuals also have countless responsibilities defined in law that trump our individual rights in order to protect and provide the most basic rights to others more vulnerable and less fortunate than we are. Why should this issue be any different?
 sweetie425
Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 15
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/19/2007 11:44:30 AM
So hard to say if abortion should be legal or not, where do the rights of the mother end and the rights of the fetus begin.......Should a pregnant women be prosecuted if she smokes, drinks, takes drugs, or engages in any type of risky behavior that may affect the fetus ?

What if she refuses to eat healthy, take her prenatal vitamins, or have regular health check ups while pregnant ? Should she be forced to do those things for the sake of the fetus ?

It's a slippery slope once a fetus is given constitutional rights.

I guess for now I would say that I wouldn't vote for a candidate that was anti abortion even though I don't like the idea of abortion I feel a woman's right to control her own body comes before the rights of the fetus.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 16
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/19/2007 12:08:29 PM
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. . ."

Not a slipery slope.

"Creator" Wether you belive it to be God or woman, the rights are what they are.

 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 17
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/20/2007 12:33:12 PM
and still...the rights of the unborn go ignored
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 21
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/21/2007 10:03:03 AM
Litmus tests questions/answers, whether on this topic or any other, are irresponsible when used to choose our leadership and representation. (I'm guilty of relying on them too often myself)
It would be my wish that they stop being asked and/or refuse to be answered.

That said, I'll step up on the soap box now.

There are scenarios, I suppose, that will warrant abortion, but not at one persons sole discretion, I'll concede that point. But we are still left with the questions of rights of the unborn vs. mother. If you refuse to believe life begins with the fetus or any time prior to birth, I guess this is a mute point.

Abortion-on-demand is a tragic offense to the rights of the unborn. Ensuring the rights of the unborn is not "forcing" a women to carry to term, it is compelling her to take responsibility for the life in her charge. We have many laws dictating the personal responsibilities we have in regards to the lives in our charge. Women have been given the responsibility by God/nature (take your pick) to foster life into this world. Abortion-on-demand is disregarding personal responsibilities at the cost of another's right to be alive.

The argument that these unwanted pregnancies results in more cost to the public, neglect/abuse, potential for criminals, ect., well,,, why stop at the womb in order to prevent the burden, pain, struggle, and suffering associated with those? Using that, the statistics and current conditions for many outside the womb would justify the murder of them at their mothers discretion. In other words, is that even a valid argument? Where else do we allow one person to determine life or death of another based on their social potential / quality of life, or is this just a convenient bonus for those who wish to keep abortion-on-demand legal.


Unless you make an ASSumption from the "God/nature" statement, I don't really see any Bible thumping, fire and brimstone, or God will getcha, in what I've written.

steppin down now......
 sweetie425
Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 24
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/21/2007 3:21:46 PM
I'm older, 54, old enough to remember when abortions weren't readily available to women. Old enough to remember some of the horror stories of what women did to themselves in order to abort the fetus they were carrying, old enough to remember back street abortions being preformed illegally, usually not by a qualified MD, not under sterile conditions, and with no follow up care. You younger women probably don't know the horror stories, uncontrolled bleeding, a poorly performed abortion that often resulted in not being able to bear children in the future, and other emotional and health issues I won't list here. But goggle how it was before legalized abortion. I don't like the idea of a women aborting a baby, but I like the idea of going back to how it use to be for women in my day even less. We are women, not breeders, no one should have the right to tell us what to do with our bodies. I feel for the unborn fetus, but the women's rights comes before the rights of the fetus in my opinion.

If anyone thinks making abortion illegal is going to stop women from aborting a child they don't feel they want to carry they are sadly mistaken. All that making abortions illegal or hard to obtain is going to do is send women back to the horrors of having abortions performed illegally, in nasty conditions or force them back to resorting to old wives tales on how to cause a miscarriage. I don't want women to have to go back to the time when risking their health, their life, by not being able to obtain a legal abortion was the only way to end an unwanted pregnancy.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 25
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/21/2007 9:20:00 PM
Ok tell ya what, I'll give the lives of those hundreds executed since it was brought back in 76, if you give me the millions of lives extinguished since R v W.
But going forward you also gotta give 1/100 the time and effort spent on each specific case investigating, gather evidence, reviewing, testing, more reviewing, more testing, another review, and lobbying governor before allowing the abortionist to do their job.

Nah,, I don't see abortion-on-demand as that complex an issue. Execution on the other hand, well there's a forum for that, I'm sure. Justice and punishment are defiantly more complex than whether innocent life has the right to be alive.

"I feel for the unborn fetus, but the women's rights comes before the rights of the fetus in my opinion."

Thank you for your honesty, Sweetie. But I can't resist adding three more cents.

"We are women, not breeders",, well when we get together,,, uhm,,, we tend to be, men and women that is,,, both of us roll the dice and take on additional responsibilities when we create another.

I am of the opinion that if abortions were limited by the standard of "immediate physical threat to the well-being of the mother" it would go a long way in preventing unwanted pregnancies. As for the "back alley" stuff that is spoke of,, what were the reasons and what were the numbers? I'm pretty callous on this one but , if you play ya gotta pay,, one way or another. But really, I don't believe any future corrections to the rights of the unborn would make those as "necessary" as before. Education, views on premarital sex, availability of effective contraceptives, reversible medical procedures, and other methods have changed a lot since R v W.

In the case of rape, I only have a very humble opinion, I find it hard to believe that taking the life of that unborn will reduce whatever harm was done to the victim/mother. I do believe the rapist needs to be held fiscally responsible either directly or indirectly for that child for 18-20 years,,, of course no hint of parental rights, that would be a debt that can never be forgiven and is completely separate from any other justice that finds him or reduction/degree of offense.

I feel for the mother, but the unborn's rights comes before the rights of the mother (or govt), in my opinion.
 sweetie425
Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 26
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/21/2007 10:12:56 PM

, if you play ya gotta pay,, one way or another


Tell me how does a man "pay" when it comes to carrying a child, what price does he "pay" in those 9 months. What chances does his body go through ? It's the women who has to cope with the emotional and physical changes that occur during pregnancy, not a man.

A man impregnates a woman, he is free to walk away from the pregnancy , the woman should have that same right.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/22/2007 8:24:59 AM
Ahhhh,,, I was at the end of writing another post..... then the lights flickered and boom.

It was brilliant!!,,, probably would have changed the minds of all those in favor of abortion-on-demand and put the realization of the rights of the unborn on a fast path to become sealed in law,,, and now it's lost forever.

Maybe it was the hand of God stepping in to allow human free will to decide their own individual morality.

Maybe it was Satan steppin in to ensure hell continues to be supplied with the fresh souls of those who take innocent lives to suit their own selfish desires.

Or,,, maybe we just blew a transformer.

In any event,, my opinions are out there,,, I'm done,,,,,,,,,,,,,for now.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 33
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/25/2007 10:37:58 AM
For Christ's sake, it doesn't matter how long a fetus can survive outside the womb. In 100 years babies will commonly be conceived and incubated completely outside the womb. The fact you can take a fetus at 21 weeks today and grow it outside the womb only means we have progressed closer to this goal of totally womb-free baby production. Once this is achieved and popular in society, what will the religious fruitcake say then??? It will be common practice to discard embryos and fetus's before they achieve that magical point of consciousness. Embryo farming and discarding is already common practice in fertility clinics. Brain dead bodies are "put to sleep" all the time in hospitals already. So it's not a leap to put a brain dead fetus to sleep. It's sad that so many people are so blinded by faith, they can't see the big picture.


Yep,, why I am a right -to -life'r couldn't be made any clearer, Be afraid,,very afraid!!!

Define; Irony: a form of speech in which the real meaning is concealed or contradicted by the words used ... also... The 1st 3 words in post and the last sentance
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/25/2007 11:18:58 AM
I tried not to reply ,,,but couldn't resist....
"true forces at work in the universe"
Do you have "faith" in those forces?
If you do, would that make you a man of "faith" ?

careful now as you ponder that question,, or maybe it's just more "irony" I picked up on.

I really gotta stop now
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 39
view profile
History
Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/26/2007 12:18:48 PM
"true forces at work in the universe"

may the force be with you
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 43
view profile
History
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 6:28:00 AM
I stopped posting here because it strayed off OP, to arguements of the sides on the issue. There are other exisiting forums for that.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 44
view profile
History
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 6:30:11 AM

Nice to see all these men in here talking about abortion as if it's their decision. Way to throw around the direct attacks by the way. You should know i just got back from a five day suspension for the same sorts of thing.


Good to have ya back. Even though we're usually in disagreement
 sweetie425
Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 45
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 10:04:59 AM
For all those who oppose abortion, I would like to know what you feel the man who fathered the unborn child's responsibility should be during those nine months that you would force a women to carry a child.

Pregnancy isn't an easy thing to go through, sometimes the women develops health problems, can't work, should the man who impregnated her be forced to care for the women until the baby is born and she can return to work ?

If you want to legally force a women to carry a fetus in her body, then you should legally force the male to do his share to ensure the women is well cared for, and comfortable during the pregnancy which is actually insuring the fetus is well cared for since it's the women's body that is host to the fetus. It took two people to create the fetus, so imho if abortion is made illegal 2 people should be responsible for the fetus not just the women, but it seems the only one we are trying to control by making abortion illegal is the women. Were is the males responsibility to the fetus ?
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 46
view profile
History
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 3:35:43 PM
#67
Absolutly for it.
It's different legisture though.
Should be treated as if child was outside the womb. Prenatal stuff at 50%.
Continuing that thought, both parents should be finacially responsible for child until adopted. But that is just too much to ask of some folks, respect the life they create.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 47
view profile
History
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 3:42:47 PM

oh and while we are at it why don't change the laws back to Roman times when women were men property.


Ok


Just kidding!!!!
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 51
view profile
History
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/31/2007 12:12:04 AM
"it's alright."
It's not the end of a life, it's the begining of one, it really is, alright.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 53
view profile
History
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 6/7/2007 9:28:01 AM

My question to the pro-lifers is when would these artificial embryos become a "life" that is able to be "murdered"? Right after they are created in the lab? If so, why? It's not God who created them.. it is man who created them. God doesn't enter the picture until a "soul" appears with consciousness.


Are you asking whether God does a soul deposit or not and when? That's seems to be an issue of faith and belief.
If the question is, when do we begin to repect the human life that is growing? Well, you first, what's your opinion?

I've got questions too. Are these "artificial" embryos growing into "artificial" fetuses and then on to "artificial" humans? At what point in their development do they lose the "artificial" disclaimer? Will they be "artificial" infants, children, teenager, adults? Can you even murder the "artificial" no matter the stage it is in?
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 55
view profile
History
to oppose abortion.
Posted: 6/7/2007 6:36:45 PM

anything that has consciousness needs to be respected to some degree.


How is consciousness measured?
If by brain activity, then folks on the operating table are fair game for harvest, by having plant status that is.


I'm just using the artificial argument to demonstrate that God's hand isn't apparent until the soul actually appears.


Are you making a claim that God has a hand in it? That's really some incredible act of individual intervention from the hand of God. Not to mention, you claim it to be a soul instead of the pinnacle of the evolved brain capable of conscience thought and reason on this planet.
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Abortion & Politics