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Joined: 7/19/2005
Msg: 1
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is InternationalPage 1 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Ah, I'm opening myself up for ridicule, as I have not researched this at any great length, but please bear with me.

But please, will someone tell me this is not true???

I was watching my favourite news programme with Jon Stewart, and he did this whole segment on Bush' recent visit with Steven Harper, and their discussion on the Northwest Passage that clearly is in Canadian jurisdiction, and has always been, but now Bush is laying claim to it by stating it is of International standing.

What madness is this? I am certainly no fan of the Harperfiend, but to his credit, he disagreed in a public forum with Bush and stated that it is, and always has been, OURS.

Is Bush trying to start a war with us??? Of course, it goes without saying, but I will anyway, I think ol' George is trying to take our resources from us. If he can't get away with it by claiming International status, he'll find another way.... think the war on terrorism.

Bush and Harper agree to disagree on Northwest Passage
Norma Greenaway, CanWest News Service
Published: Tuesday, August 21, 2007
MONTEBELLO, Que. - The United States accepts Canada's sovereignty over the Arctic Islands but not over the Northwest Passage waterway, President George W. Bush says.

Speaking at a closing news conference at a summit of the three North American leaders here Tuesday, Bush made clear he was not persuaded so far by Canada's claims of sovereignty over the Northwest Passage, even though the claim won a nod of approval earlier this week from a former U.S. ambassador to Canada who was appointed by Bush.

Bush said Canada and the U.S. must agree to disagree on the status of the Northwest Passage, which the U.S. considers an international waterway. But he suggested the difference of opinion would not get in the way of the two countries' relationship.

"We'll manage the differences, because there are differences on the Northwest Passage," Bush said. "We believe it's an international passage. Having said that, the United States does not question Canada's sovereignty over its Arctic islands."

Harper also sought to portray Canada's differences with the U.S. as manageable, although he referred pointedly to recent comments by Paul Cellucci, the former ambassador, on the status of the Northwest Passage.

Cellucci suggested in a CTV television interview on the weekend that the U.S. should consider agreeing to Canadian sovereignty over the passage as a way of enhancing security in the North.

Harper said the disagreement with the U.S. would not stop his government from pressing ahead with plans to strengthen Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic.

"Quite honestly, Canada's position is that we intend to strengthen our sovereignty in the Arctic area," he said, vowing to add to the region's military, economic, social and environmental fabric.

Harper recently returned from a tour of the North, aimed at bolstering Canada's presence by, among other things, announcing a new deep-sea port and military training facility near the Northwest Passage.

© CanWest News Service 2007

Cheers, Raven
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 8:50:48 AM
I've been following this story on a couple of threads, and it's alarming ~ no doubt about that. growing up w/ the threat of the Cold War was one thing ~ but this is the US sneaking in to our nightmares.

when the heck is the next US election scheduled, anyway? time for some apperception and true leadership from our southerly neighbours.

and time for us, as Canadians, to stand up and say NO ~ we're not going to let our government stand for this. Harper needs to get up off his knees and wipe his chin.
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 3
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 9:23:22 AM
This has been the long standing position of the US through many administrations - since long before I was born. I'm not really sure why, but let's not dump on Bush for this one. If Nader had been elected in 2000 the position would be the same.
Joined: 2/6/2006
Msg: 4
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 9:38:19 AM
Another refrain from that currently popular song....."Blame it on the Bush".

And, whats this...???? Am I suddenly hearing hawkish sentiments from the peaceful anti-war Canadians?????? Ya see, it really just depends on the issue. Everyone will begin shouting War.... if the threat (real or otherwise).... seeps into their personal sphere of concern.
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 5
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 9:47:09 AM
^^^ Oh, come on now, you'd be ticked if the long standing position of Canada was that the Mississippi River is an international waterway. Pretty much the whole thing goes right through Canada's north.
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 7
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 9:52:37 AM
Nothing new there.

This is a long standing US refrain.

Since the NW Passage lies almost entirely within Canadian territorial waters (not the 200 mile economic zone but the 12 mile sovereign territorial zone) all international law is on our side.

I say we put up toll stations at both ends and start charging passage to anyone who wants to use it for a while, just to make the point.
Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 8
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 11:18:15 AM
I do beleive that the US would also be "choked", to say the least, if foreign nuclear submarines were regularly venturing into their waters and planting themselves just off their coast.

Of course, what it really comes down to is our ability to patrol and defend the NW Passage. If Canada lacks the will to do this on it's own, shame on us for whining.
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 9
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 11:25:22 AM
Get real people nobody owns that...????

is that right???? well I guess if you go back far enough, there was a time when nobody owned anything ,...however in the history of this country,...ownership is as I understand it only been a debate between our Aboriginals living in th north and the rest of us,...that would be the rest of us "Canadians",.....

But none of this surprises me much,....seems to me the USA has long acted as though what's theirs is theirs,..and by gum we's gonna keep it even if we hafta fence it off,...and what's yours is ours too,...if and when we want/need it,....

FYI to me what exactly is it American's want it for again?
are there long line ups of boats trying to get from one side or the other, I haven't heard anything about ?,....or is there a different reason?,...for example,...
is the any good up there?,...I forget

FYI....The USA imports most of it's oil and petroleum products from Canada. Canada as of right now has the second largest proven oil reserves next Saudi Arabia and it's predicted that at some point in time we will have the largest proven reserves.

we have a lot more than just oil up there,....let's not discount the many Billion's in non conflict diamonds, well as other pecious stones and minerals yet untapped,.....
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 10
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 3:57:20 PM
Let's not forget a huge source of fresh water. NW passage, used for cargo when the season allows.

Ah well...anyone know if we charge for goods going through the St Lawrence Seaway? Think for a second Quebec wouldn't if they separate? LOL! The north country.....forget the oil reserves there and things like that. The US controls the companies that have the rights to the drilling've already been sold down the river.
Joined: 5/15/2007
Msg: 11
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/22/2007 4:04:01 PM

I was watching my favourite news programme with Jon Stewart,

I love the Jon Stewart show...

That said, please tell me you don't actually beleive what he "reports" as the real news...

I think his show is based on Satire, and Bush just happens to be idiot enough to provide more material than anyone could ever use...
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 13
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 4:33:54 AM
Rory Bremner, a famous UK impressionist, was once asked why he never imitated Dubya. He replied that Bush had said:
The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur.
(For those who don't know, entrepreneur is French) He said: how can you make fun of someone who says things like that?

Guy's a walking joke factory.

That's my opinion.
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 14
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 5:43:49 AM

One could only hope. But Canada is full of sissies and Neville Chamberlains and it will be far too late for Canada until the USA renders assistance.

I guess that would make the Americans little Hitlers in this case?

I don't believe it, but it seems to be what your statement is implying in this case.
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 15
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 8:25:38 AM
you are right in Canada we do not have the right to bear arms we have that option,...
which comes with responsibillities,....and we generally do not get permitts to walk about with a sweet little pistol in our purses,...the liscence to carry comes with many restrictions , and obligations, I believ it should,....

I still remember the line in a movie where sandra bullock tackles this guy because she thought he had a gun,...(it was a cigarett lighter)

the line that followed was something like of course I have a gun, flourist has a gun,...w all do,....we ,...don't and boy am I glad ,..but I digress,...

even though per capita american's have 3 times as many guns as we do I don't understand the need to stockpile, best you can only ever fire two (at a time) at best, if it's a riffle, many guns does it take to maky you feel secure?,...

Statistics, Gun Control Issues, and Safety
Gunshot wounds inpact severely on the criminal justice as well as health care systems. Some basic statistics are important in understanding the magnitude and severity of the social and economic burden to the U.S.

In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004) This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S. The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, but has since declined steadily.(CDC, 2001) However, firearms injuries remain a leading cause of death in the U.S., particularly among youth (CDC, 2004).

The number of non-fatal injuries is considerable--over 200,000 per year in the U.S. Many of these injuries require hospitalization and trauma care. A 1994 study revealed the cost per injury requiring admission to a trauma center was over $14,000. The cumulative lifetime cost in 1985 for gunshot wounds was estimated to be $911 million, with $13.4 billion in lost productivity. (Mock et al, 1994) The cost of the improper use of firearms in Canada was estimated at $6.6 billion per year. (Chapdelaine and Maurice, 1996)

The rates of firearms deaths in the U.S. vary significantly by race and sex. The U.S. national average was 10.3 deaths per 100,000 population in 2001. The highest rate was 34.5/100,000 for African-American males, more than double the rate of 16.3/100,000 for white males and well above the rate of 2.7/100,000 for white females. (CDC, 2004)

Firearms Death Rate (per 100,000, age adjusted) for Selected Countries in one year between 1990 and 1995 (Krug, Powell and Dahlberg, 1998)

Gun Control Issues, Public Health, and Safety
The number of firearms injuries remains high in the United States, compared with most of the rest of the world. Firearm suicide rates are strongly impacted by the rate of gun ownership. (Kaplan and Geling, 1998) There is a positive correlation between homicide rates and availability of guns in developed nations. (Hemenway and Miller, 2000) The number of firearms in the hands of private citizens continues to grow each year at a rate far exceeding that of the population as a whole. It might even be said that Americans live in a "gun culture" based upon traditions and behaviors well-entrenched in our society. This is reflected in our constitution, whose second amendment guarantees that "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Though the application of this amendment applied to maintenance of a militia, and not private gun ownership, the second amendment has been consistently interpreted to protect private ownership of many types of guns.

Thus, the laws of our Federal government as well as the states do not as yet severely restrict the manufacture, sale, and use of firearms by ordinary citizens. "Gun control" is a sensitive issue that evokes strong emotions in persons both for and against control. Politicians find it difficult to deal with this issue. There is disagreement as to whether a reduction in access to or numbers of firearms will have a measurable effect upon crime. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act passed in 1994 in the U.S. established a nationwide requirement that licensed firearms dealers observe a waiting period and initiate a background check for handgun sales (but the law does not apply to secondary markets). So far, this law has not been associated with overall reductions in homicide rate or suicide rate.(Ludwig and Cook, 2000) Perhaps our attitudes--and our tolerances--are reflected in the high visibility of firearms and firearms-inflicted injuries that are portrayed in the media: newspapers, magazines, books, films, and television. (Price et al, 1992) One thing remains certain, despite laws for or against gun control, a lack of love toward one's fellow human beings, whether in war or through domestic violence, will continue to promote firearms injuries.

Child safety is an important issue. Firearms injury is the second leading cause of non-natural death in childhood and adolescence. (CDC, 2004) Accidental shooting deaths are most commonly associated with one or more children playing with a gun they found in the home. (Choi, et al, 1994) The person pulling the trigger is a friend, family member, or the victim. (Harruff, 1992) In the period from 1979 to 2000, accidental firearms deaths involving children declined in the U.S., aided by child access prevention laws and felony prosecution of offenders. (Hepburn et al, 2006)

The table below indicates mode of death for firearms injuries in the ten countries with the most reported deaths from firearms for children less than 15 years of age. (CDC, 1997) actually for the table you have to go to the site it didn't copy,....

but suffice it to say the USA wa at the top of the list, we were number 9 and denmark was at the bottom number 19 and good for them I say,....guess we can all improove,...

Firearms Deaths by Mode of Death for Children <15 Years of Age
Top 10 Countries - Rate per 100,000

In one survey, 10% of families admitted to having unlocked and loaded firearms within easy reach of children (Patterson and Smith, 1987). Another study showed that two-thirds of accidental firearms injuries occured in the home, and one-third involved children under 15. 45% were self-inflicted, and 16% occurred when children were playing with guns. (Morrow and Hudson, 1986) A study from 1991-2000 showed that twice as many people died from unintentional firearm injuries in states in the U.S. where firearm owners were more likely to store their firearms loaded. (Miller, et al, 2005)

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman, et al) It would appear that, rather than beign used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.

Hunting accidents with firearms, despite the large gun ownership in this country and numerous game seasons in most states, remain relatively rare and do not appear to be increasing. (Huiras, et al, 1990) A study in Sweden indicated a rate of 0.074/100,000 and that, when hunting big game, most accidents resulted from a mistaken target. When hunting small game, accidents occurred most frequently as a result of mishandling the gun. Hunting accidents did not increase with increasing gun ownership or numbers of hunters. (Ornehult and Eriksson, 1987)

I guess if you have the money to blow on hospital and burrial costs,...why not,....

the above is from an American ste BTW,...
at 33 million people we don't have any to spare,.....
 bliss serendipity
Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 17
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 10:32:23 AM
re: North West Passage discussion. Whatever comes out of our politicians' mouths is just rhetoric. Our resources have been earmarked and permission given to hand over to US government/corporations many years ago when and if they need it. Has anybody been seriously reading up on the NAU threads, that says it all.

Harper's people like to give impression that they are standing up for our rights, baloney!!! Martin was no better. If U.S. wants our resources, either we give them or they take them. Government is a business, a business that takes our money and everyone's resources and passes them out to themselves and their friends.

We don't have the resources to protect ourselves, we rely on the U.S. for that; in exchange for what, I don't know. Whether we like it or not, because we have no resources to protect ourselves, we do need U.S. to step in. Biggest problem with that is that U.S. thinks/knows they own us.
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 19
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 12:12:12 PM
We don't have the resources to protect ourselves???????????

perhaps not,....but even we have allies,.....the us had allways bee one but they had neverbeen the ONLY one,.....if the US were to move on Canada,....the world would not stand by idlle,....
perhaps not to save our sorry baccon but because it would mean that the USA's cheese has completely slipped completely off of it's crackers and they need to be reminded that they do not exist on this planet alone,....and are not the zars of everything that they see, and want, some spoiled two year old,....

Which in the world of politics they are,....after all,....
(yea we are too, but we at least know it,....and our place)

How many countries currently exist on this planet?????????

so we may not have the biggest army in the world,....but our friends do,....
if you ad them all together,...and let's not forget that,....
if there is one thing we Canadian's are famous for,'s making friends,....

so to all my fellow Canadians,....stand up tall,....
and stop all the self denigration,( I hate that thing we do)
we have a lot to be proud of,....and we need them as much as thy need us,....

without us many things in the USA would stop dead,...
for lack of fuel if nothing else,....I know that China would be only too glad to buy up all the oil that the USA currently does,.....maybe even pay more,....
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 20
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 6:40:26 PM
Been over checking out a site called "The Inventers Spot"...some really great ideas there...and some odd ones too.....

Anyways...The US can try to lay claim to whatever they want.....Canada? LOL! We'll just hand them a beer or two, then drink them under the table. Drag their drunken butts back across the border, and dump 'em at the ex-wifes place! Should be good for a laugh.
Joined: 5/15/2007
Msg: 21
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 7:44:52 PM

To begin with you have no rights to bear arms....

The question is, do they have the right to arm bears?
 bliss serendipity
Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 22
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/23/2007 10:22:52 PM
Canadians and Americans vs Canadian Government and American Government plus Corporations/politicians - there is a huge difference. I am talking about two different entities here, it has very little to do with the citizens of either country. Corporations/politicians in either country do not give a rat's ass about whether we are allies. They only care about resources = profits. Of course, U.S. is our ally, we have much of what they need, except these corporations/politicians do not care to play fair, even with their own citizens. That is why so many in the US want to rewrite the Fair Trade Agreement. People from both US and Canada appear to be under the delusion that the Government really cares about what their citizens want or need. Yup, only until they get elected in.

Yes, US has the resources to protect us, and in return Canada provides/gives away our resources; it's that simple!
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 23
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/24/2007 6:42:52 PM
Canada has no WMD's? WTH's up with that crap?

Fine then...guess we use beer, snowballs, and actually get down to legalizing pot....then we'll see who does what to whom! Don't make us get drunked up and come down to Washington and burn the Whitehouse down...again! Cause we'd much rather party hard than have a bonfire with someone elses home!
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 24
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/25/2007 10:38:59 AM
Cause we catch and release polar bears there? Maybe we should release them in NYC in winter...or Washington.

Take a map, start the the top of the world, and start drawing lines to the corners of each country that has shores that far up. The triangualr sections should mark the boundaries of their territories. Works for me.
 Politically INCORRECT
Joined: 8/14/2007
Msg: 25
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/26/2007 3:10:23 AM

I say we put up toll stations at both ends and start charging passage to anyone who wants to use it for a while, just to make the point.

Great idea!!!
Wonder what the Americans would think of that? And who would care?
Joined: 9/20/2006
Msg: 26
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/26/2007 12:58:27 PM
The NW passage is expected to be ice free by mid-century and free of summer ice much earlier than then.
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 27
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/26/2007 2:01:59 PM

To claim something- it needs to be settled. And thats not going to happen anytime soon with the Nothwest Passage. What your trying to do is claim international waters. What next? we divide up the Atlantic and Pacific into territories?

A little geography lesson might be in order.

The NW Passage runs right through the islands of the Canadian Arctic Archipelago. There is no "international waters" about it, that's like saying Long Island Sound and the passages around Long Island are international waters.

As far as the "settled" part goes, there are numerous Canadian towns in the Arctic Archipelago. The region has been settled for as long as Canada has been a country.

For Canada, Denmark, Norway and Russia to claim economic zones off their coasts in the Arctic is no different than any of the claims off the coasts of any nation (just like the US does off its east and west coasts). The only point that makes the Arctic a little unique is its relatively small size which makes the majority of its waters within the claimable zones of the bordering nations.

I do not know or care who the Northwest passage belongs to since it is an open waterway we can use it.

That is the kind of attitude that has everyone pissed off at the US. The "we'll use what we want and we don't care if it belongs to you but don't you DARE touch something of ours" or "What's mine is mine and what's your's is mine too if I want it" attitude.

And to think some can't figure out why so many people have such negative things to say about the US. If the gov't is stepping on everyone's toes it is because the voters have that attitude and let them.

And again, see above. It isn't "open waters", it is the waters of the Canadian Arctic.
Joined: 10/13/2005
Msg: 28
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Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/26/2007 2:37:07 PM
The issue of who the Northwest Passage belongs to will be mooted by the North American Union once it is imposed upon the peoples of Canada, Mexico and the USA .
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 29
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 8/26/2007 4:07:50 PM

yes it does pass between islands- albeit islands that far apart, at least far enough apart to distinguish territorial waters from international waters- and no ice does not count as territory. What I am talking about is the farthest northern route of the NW passage (at least to the artic- which is essentially what everyones interested in, Im assuming you know there are different routes that compose the NW passage.

Yes there are some points that are separated by more the 25 Nm and many that are not. That, however is not the entire story. All of the waters internal to an island archipelago are considered the territorial waters of the nation the archipelago belongs to. Further, since Canada a not a strictly archipelagic nation (like Vanauatu or Kiribati), the waters also constitute "internal waters" (like my example of Long Island Sound or the waters between the US southern key islands and the mainland).

As far as the artic goes, its going to be a colonialization scramble.

No, it isn't a "colonization scramble". The Arctic Islands (at least the ones not right off the coast of Russia) are internationally recognized as Canadian territory and they are ALREADY SETTLED, by Canadians.

To shut the US out completely is madness. You make it sound as if US territory is not within close proximity to the Arctic. Its called ALASKA. So the US has an economic zone after all. I mean if you put norway and denmark in there, well then youve opened it up quite a bit. Well youve certainly got more to worry about than just the US....I mean if denmark and norway are trying to get into the action.

Yes the US does have a territorial and an economic zone in the Arctic (a very small one that has a mere pittance of the available resources, but they do have one). No-one, not Canada, Russia, Denmark or Norway are trying to deny the US their LAWFUL zone (and it might be noted that the zones claimed by Norway and Denmark are actually smaller than the US zone, just more resource rich). Canada and Russia have the largest claim zones because they have MORE ARCTIC COASTLINE and own most of the land in the Arctic.

No-one is trying to shut the US out, just telling them they aren't entitled to more than INTERNATIONAL TREATY gives them and that they don't get to arbitrarily change or decide the rules just because they either want it for themselves or simply don't want someone else to have more.
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