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 specialfxgirl
Joined: 7/5/2005
Msg: 2
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.Page 1 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Ok so does this mean the wars off?????????


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/white-house-hails-findings-of-new-nie-on-iran-nukes-2007-12-03.html

The White House Monday touted the results of a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) that found that Iran has stopped its nuclear weapons program.

The NIE said that U.S. intelligence services, with a high degree of confidence, have determined that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003. Prior to that time, according to the document, Iran had sought to build a nuclear weapon.

“Tehran’s decision to halt its nuclear weapons program suggests it is less determined to develop nuclear weapons than we have been judging since 2005,” the NIE said. “Our assessment that the program probably was halted primarily in response to international pressure suggests Iran may be more vulnerable to influence on the issue than we judged previously.”

National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley said the NIE “confirms that we were right to be worried about Iran seeking to develop nuclear weapons.”
 UnconventionalOne
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 3
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/4/2007 12:10:28 PM
Charles, your constant American bashing, camouflaged with
"Remember when Iraq had WMDs? How we didn't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud?"
...who is the "we" you speak of Charles? You are NOT an American. You constantly denounce this nation and additionally quote a newssource that planted Liberals with questions at a recent Republican debate. Did you forget what the Iranian leader stated regarding the Holocaust? Your qualifications to determine what the United States' best course of action is in dealing with their attempts to strike at its enemies via nuclear means is what........? I have never ever seen one of your postings that said anything favorable about the greatest nation on earth, your neighbor to the South, The United States. Better Iran launch a Pearl Harbor attack than for us to nip this cancer in the bud ahead of time, huh?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 6
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/4/2007 4:00:58 PM

I guess all Ahmadinejad's comments about wiping Israel off the map and denying the Holocaust should just be ignored?

Israel has shown itself quite capable of defending itself-- with US aid, of course. This is about US security, isn't it? A nation can be watchful without resorting straight to invasion. At least, I hope ours can...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 7
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/4/2007 4:12:44 PM
denying the Holocaust should just be ignored????

hee, hee, hee...

Holy Iraq, Batman!!!

The "they're building nukes" excuse is off the table but that's OK, we can make up a different excuse.

Now we can say that they need to be attacked and subjected to regime change because they're, OMG, holocaust deniers.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Of course you can't simply file a hate crime charge and file for extradition or arrest Ahmadenijad the next time he visits the US, NO, the only solution is yet another war to drive the US even closer to bankruptcy.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 10
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/4/2007 5:30:15 PM
i just want to say that as an american i want to apologize. for every thing we have ever done or will do in the future. we are a tarable people and for the life of me i just dont see how any of you people in the world can stand us at all.

Apology accepted, though it really wasn't necessary. The world doesn't hold YOU personally reponsible, just the various gov'ts that caused the problems but it certainly is nice of you to accept that on their behalf.

Perhaps if more Americans took it upon themselves to ackowledge the failings of the gov'ts they voted as you have there just might be fewer problems.

Anyway, thanks again for the apology.

He has expressed a desire to wipe out millions of people - are we supposed to just ignore it???? again- you people are very free and easy with OUR national security.

And this has WHAT to do with the national security of the US?

You're going to have to remind us again, with the "excuse of the week" changing so constantly it's a bit difficult to keep up.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 11
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History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/4/2007 5:51:14 PM

I guess all Ahmadinejad's comments about wiping Israel off the map and denying the Holocaust should just be ignored????
OLD NEWS!!!!! All Neocon HOGWASH ... which has all been established in many other threads ... where the true translations are for all to read.


Thanks, but no thanks little guys....................we'll take care of things on our own!!!!!!
Speak for yourself ... there are quite a few of us who are sick and tired of "Warmonger Bush" trying to shove that sh1t down our throat.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 13
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/4/2007 7:36:09 PM

This country has been led to most of the wars it's been in with lies. So when a president does that, it's nothing new. So how could anyone possibly be enraged over a president doing what most American presidents have done?

Ahhh... I see.

So now it's down to the "he did it first" defence. So because little Woody, Frankie and Johnny did it it's OK for little Georgie to do it too.

Of course this one wasn't a war in progress where a President chose a side to support and then made up a reason to sell it.

That certainly isn't good enough for Georgie, he has to lie to START ONE but really why argue semantics. If it's a good enough defence for a ten year old it should be good enough for the President.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 14
view profile
History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/4/2007 8:39:40 PM

How can I NOT be enraged by this???? Very easily- we are in a struggle against radical Islam for our very survival. Whether or not you CHOOSE to ignore it- it exists.
Oh Dear ... the poor soul has swallowed the "Dubya" sh1t ... hook, line, and sinker. I'm afraid he's ripe for nothing more than just being reeled in.

Iran's leader has stated his desire to wipe out Israel...
Again ... OLD NEWS ... that's already been clarified in several threads on here. The poster simply refuses to either read them or believe them. The "Dubya" hook has him tight and won't let go.

... and has funded the killing of American soldiers in Iraq- he IS an enemy of this country
There are several threads that also explain how "Dubya" is manipulating that information ... actually has been for some time. There are American generals who will testify that it is not so. More Neocon HOGWASH.

Oh Dear ... this guy really has it bad. "Dubya" has got him and a lot of others really running scared. If it wasn't so pathetic, it would be hilarious.

BOO!!!! Better watch out ... the "Islamic Boogie Man" is liable to get you!!!!

Run Philly, RUN

Aw to H3ll with pathetic ... I'm just gonna laugh ...

OT ...
What? The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion? Oh Dear ... the Neocons are at it again. Time to crank up another war ...
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 25
view profile
History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/5/2007 6:09:37 AM
I just found this in another thread about "The Stupidest People On Earth". I think it applies here ...
President says a new intelligence report on Iran provides 'a warning signal'
It's a warning signal, all right.

It's a warning that the Neocon/Israel/Bush warhawks are still going to try to sell this war to the people.

No longer is this a case of Bush lying (again) to start a war. Bush has just declared that he wants to start a war even in the face of facts proving he is lying. At best he has become the dictator he joked about, invading countries at whim; at worst he has totally lost touch with reality in his megalomaniacal obsession to be a "War President."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22095352/

how stupid can people be?????


Its funny that some pos(t)ers on here cannot seem to hide their hatred for the United States and Israel- very intersting indeed.
Translation: It's funny that some pos(t)ers on here cannot seem to hide their hatred for having lies shoved down their throat, their children sent off to be killed in a made-up war by a president who would have us believing in some sort of "Islamic Boogie Man" just so he can go in and invade countries at whim to steal their OIL.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 26
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/5/2007 8:22:49 AM
Believe me, if Bush even "thinks" about getting into a war with Iran he will be personally hung from the nearest tree by an overwhelming majority of the American public. I'll lead the procession. We have way too much on our plate right now with Afghanistan and Iraq; we do NOT need the added complication.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 27
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/5/2007 8:36:26 AM
Yep, just tell the Iranians what we told the Soviets for 45 years, you get outta line and even threaten to use nukes, we make your country a parking lot---PERIOD!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 28
view profile
History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/5/2007 8:49:42 AM

A declassified summary of the latest National Intelligence Estimate found with "high confidence" that the Islamic republic stopped an effort to develop nuclear weapons in the fall of 2003

iam sure all the left wingers will say we told you say,the same way they said that about north keroa, how did that work out?? they alledged stop also right??? also theres a difference between abonding and halting a process, and nobody knows for sure, atleast nobody on this site!!!!!!!!!
For me the bottom line is that for the life of me I don't get all this fuss about another country developing nuclear weapons.

As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the US ...
**Is the only country in the world that has ever used a nuclear weapon against another nation ...
**Is the # 1 country in the world known for "Warmongering" and most likely to use a nuclear weapon given that we have a "trigger-happy cowboy" with an "itchy" trigger finger sitting on the button ...
**Is making no effort to halt production of their nuclear weapons ...
**Current leadership has repeatedly lied to the people about grounds for invading other countries and continues to do so (making us all look like the stupidest people on earth) ...
**Is the only country in the world currently invading other countries on false pretenses in order to greedily "harvest" that country's OIL ...

 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 32
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History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/5/2007 1:38:53 PM


Is the only country in the world that has ever used a nuclear weapon against another nation

i guess that germany wouldnt have used them if we did not stop them
Germany was not as close as many would like to believe when we stopped them. Their teams (there were two ... one for the military and one for private purposes) of nuclear engineers were already captured and in custody when we dropped the bombs on Japan and confessed they were far from achieving a bomb.


when they stuff like wipe all the jews off the map, is that warmonger?
It would be if it were true ... but most of us in here already know that statement has been proven "mistranslated" a number of times on any number of threads in here. It's OLD NEWS. MEMRI did a bang up job on that ... didn't they? Like most Neocon Rhetoric, I'm sure if it gets repeated often enough, some will do their best to perpetuate it, and then there will be folks gullible enough to believe it.



Is the only country in the world currently invading other countries on false pretenses in order to greedily "harvest" that country's OIL


if that is the case can you explain why the evil empire is still paying over 3 dollars a gallon.
They weren't counting on the pipe lines getting blown up continuously. They really thought those "dumb desert people" would just put their tails between their legs and run ... leaving them with nothing more to do than harvest the oil and go. I guess they found out differently ... DUH!!!!



Current leadership has repeatedly lied to the people about grounds for invading other countries and continues to do so (making us all look like the stupidest people on earth)

once again thats your opinion not a fact,



The Stupidest People On Earth
http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2007/09/the_stupidest_p.html
... Government has separated itself from us. It has abandoned the people and now seeks only to exert unlimited control over us, and to do with us as it will. Just as it can dismiss the law, it has dismissed the notion of the people being of consequence. This country has become their own property to do with as they choose, and we seem only to be standing in their way, along with our rights and the laws we once had that protected us.
Does anyone really believe that we willingly gave it all away believing it would make us safe? The painful truth of it is, that's exactly what we did. It could not be any more clear. Americans are the stupidest people on earth.

Becoming the Stupidest Country on Earth
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2006/02/becoming-stupidest-country-on-earth.html
I would greatly prefer to be able to ignore the following kind of story entirely. Unfortunately, as the article notes, "millions of Americans find evolution preposterous. Polls consistently show that roughly half of Americans believe the biblical account instead." There is no way to phrase this politely, so I won't even try: I continue to find it absolutely astonishing that in the midst of life in America today -- a life made infinitely better than in the past by medical advances, by technological miracles, and by countless improvements of all kinds, all of which are the result of applied science, which means the application of reason, facts and logic to every aspect of our lives -- so many Americans are determined to remain pigheadedly ignorant.

George Bush, stupidest man on Earth
http://bravesbeat.com/bravesjournal/warliberal/2006/08/george-bush-stupidest-man-on-earth.html
The Raw Story | Ambassador claims shortly before invasion, Bush didn't know there were two sects of Islam

This can't be real, can it? This sounds like a joke. Seriously, I think they did it on The Daily Show:
Galbraith reports that the three of them spent some time explaining to Bush that there are two different sects in Islam--to which the President allegedly responded, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”


OT ...
Oh Dear ... let the "DUMBING" of America continue ...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 33
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/5/2007 3:19:19 PM
i guess that germany wouldnt have used them if we did not stop them

Oh, oh, I know, I know the answer!!!

Red herring, one of the reddest of red herrings ever to grace the forums.

WTF! The US did not end up at war with Germany because they were or even might have nuclear weapons.

But hey, why let rationality and facts get in the way of a good red herring.



if that is the case can you explain why the evil empire is still paying over 3 dollars a gallon.

Oh, oh, I know, I know the answer!!!!

Another red herring.

It doesn't have anything to do with YOUR wallet. It is about strategic reserves and the wallets of the top 10 %.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 34
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/5/2007 3:28:57 PM

As for invading Iraq- I guess we need to wait to be attacked before we protect ourselves????

How in the Sam Hill was Iraq going to attack the US?

After 10 years of sanctions, they could barely feed themselves and you think it was about protecting the US from an Iraqi attack???

Dude, anyone making such a statement is the last person who should be questioning someone else's logic.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 38
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/6/2007 6:01:35 AM
I really need to answer all this Monday-morning quarterbacking/20-20 hindsight/backseat driving nonsense about American use of the Bomb in WW2.

The critics that speak of how "evil" the US was for using atomic weapons should be thankful they're not speaking German or Japanese right now. And that's not just sarcasm, hyperbole, or empty rhetoric, but a very possible alternative reality. In case you're not aware, Germany and Japan also embarked on their own mission to build a bomb during the war, and the allies had no concrete idea just how far along their programs were until the war ended.

I also suppose that, using the critics' logic, China is even "more" evil, since they were the ones that invented gunpowder, and as everyone knows that lead to weapons that have killed many more millions than Hiroshima and Nagasaki ever did.

I would also ask just how you would react if you were an American mother/father/sibling that had a loved one killed in the invasion of Japan (casualities were projected to be in the millions, soldiers and Japanese civilians alike), then found out later Truman could have used the bomb to end the war sooner? Can you even "imagine" the anger of the American public at the time??? Truman would have been hung in effigy (literally)!!
 IslandDreams56
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 39
view profile
History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/6/2007 9:50:58 AM
I had posted this speech in another thread, but I believe that his words would
also be appropriate here. It's a long read but well worth the time spent. I highly recommend that all the apologists for Bush and Cheney read it carefully.
____________________________________________________________




By Daniel Ellsberg September 26, 2007 (Text of a speech delivered September 20, 2007)

*Daniel Ellsberg is author of Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers.

Editor's Note: Daniel Ellsberg, the former Defense Department analyst who leaked the secret Pentagon Papers history of the Vietnam War, offered insights into the looming war with Iran and the loss of liberty in the United States at an American University symposium on Sept. 20.


I think nothing has higher priority than averting an attack on Iran, which I think will be accompanied by a further change in our way of governing here that in effect will convert us into what I would call a police state.

If there's another 9/11 under this regime ... it means that they switch on full extent all the apparatus of a police state that has been patiently constructed, largely secretly at first but eventually leaked out and known and accepted by the Democratic people in Congress, by the Republicans and so forth.

Will there be anything left for NSA to increase its surveillance of us? ... They may be to the limit of their technical capability now, or they may not. But if they're not now they will be after another 9/11.

And I would say after the Iranian retaliation to an American attack on Iran, you will then see an increased attack on Iran - an escalation - which will be also accompanied by a total suppression of dissent in this country, including detention camps.

It's a little hard for me to distinguish the two contingencies; they could come together. Another 9/11 or an Iranian attack in which Iran's reaction against Israel, against our shipping, against our troops in Iraq above all, possibly in this country, will justify the full panoply of measures that have been prepared now, legitimized, and to some extent written into law. ...

This is an unusual gang, even for Republicans. [But] I think that the successors to this regime are not likely to roll back the assault on the Constitution. They will take advantage of it, they will exploit it.

Will Hillary Clinton as president decide to turn off NSA after the last five years of illegal surveillance? Will she deprive her administration her ability to protect United States citizens from possible terrorism by blinding herself and deafening herself to all that NSA can provide? I don't think so.

Unless this somehow, by a change in our political climate, of a radical change, unless this gets rolled back in the next year or two before a new administration comes in - and there's no move to do this at this point - unless that happens I don't see it happening under the next administration, whether Republican or Democratic.

THE NEXT COUP

Let me simplify this and not just to be rhetorical: A coup has occurred. I woke up the other day realizing, coming out of sleep, that a coup has occurred. It's not just a question that a coup lies ahead with the next 9/11. That's the next coup, that completes the first.

The last five years have seen a steady assault on every fundamental of our Constitution, ... what the rest of the world looked at for the last 200 years as a model and experiment to the rest of the world - in checks and balances, limited government, Bill of Rights, individual rights protected from majority infringement by the Congress, an independent judiciary, the possibility of impeachment.

There have been violations of these principles by many presidents before. Most of the specific things that Bush has done in the way of illegal surveillance and other matters were done under my boss Lyndon Johnson in the Vietnam War: the use of CIA, FBI, NSA against Americans.

I could go through a list going back before this century to Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus in the Civil War, and before that the Alien and Sedition Acts in the 18th century. I think that none of those presidents were in fact what I would call quite precisely the current administration: domestic enemies of the Constitution.

I think that none of these presidents with all their violations, which were impeachable had they been found out at the time and in nearly every case their violations were not found out until they were out of office so we didn't have the exact challenge that we have today.

That was true with the first term of Nixon and certainly of Johnson, Kennedy and others. They were impeachable, they weren't found out in time, but I think it was not their intention to in the crisis situations that they felt justified their actions, to change our form of government.

It is increasingly clear with each new book and each new leak that comes out, that Richard Cheney and his now chief of staff David Addington have had precisely that in mind since at least the early 70s. Not just since 1992, not since 2001, but have believed in Executive government, single-branch government under an Executive president - elected or not - with unrestrained powers. They did not believe in restraint.

When I say this I'm not saying they are traitors. I don't think they have in mind allegiance to some foreign power or have a desire to help a foreign power. I believe they have in their own minds a love of this country and what they think is best for this country - but what they think is best is directly and consciously at odds with what the Founders of this country and Constitution thought.

They believe we need a different kind of government now, an Executive government essentially, rule by decree, which is what we're getting with signing statements. Signing statements are talked about as line-item vetoes which is one [way] of describing them which are unconstitutional in themselves, but in other ways are just saying the president says "I decide what I enforce. I decide what the law is. I legislate."

It's [the same] with the military commissions, courts that are under the entire control of the Executive Branch, essentially of the president. A concentration of legislative, judicial, and executive powers in one branch, which is precisely what the Founders meant to avert, and tried to avert and did avert to the best of their ability in the Constitution.

FOUNDERS HAD IT RIGHT

Now I'm appealing to that as a crisis right now not just because it is a break in tradition but because I believe in my heart and from my experience that on this point the Founders had it right.

It's not just "our way of doing things" - it was a crucial perception on the corruption of power to anybody including Americans. On procedures and institutions that might possibly keep that power under control because the alternative was what we have just seen, wars like Vietnam, wars like Iraq, wars like the one coming.

That brings me to the second point. This Executive Branch, under specifically Bush and Cheney, despite opposition from most of the rest of the branch, even of the cabinet, clearly intends a war against Iran which even by imperialist standards, standards in other words which were accepted not only by nearly everyone in the Executive Branch but most of the leaders in Congress. The interests of the empire, the need for hegemony, our right to control and our need to control the oil of the Middle East and many other places. That is consensual in our establishment. ...

But even by those standards, an attack on Iran is insane. And I say that quietly, I don't mean it to be heard as rhetoric. Of course it's not only aggression and a violation of international law, a supreme international crime, but it is by imperial standards, insane in terms of the consequences.

Does that make it impossible? No, it obviously doesn't, it doesn't even make it unlikely.

That is because two things come together that with the acceptance for various reasons of the Congress - Democrats and Republicans - and the public and the media, we have freed the White House - the president and the vice president - from virtually any restraint by Congress, courts, media, public, whatever.

And on the other hand, the people who have this unrestrained power are crazy. Not entirely, but they have crazy beliefs.

And the question is what then, what can we do about this? We are heading towards an insane operation. It is not certain. It is likely. ... I want to try to be realistic myself here, to encourage us to do what we must do, what is needed to be done with the full recognition of the reality. Nothing is impossible.

What I'm talking about in the way of a police state, in the way of an attack on Iran is not certain. Nothing is certain, actually. However, I think it is probable, more likely than not, that in the next 15, 16 months of this administration we will see an attack on Iran. Probably. Whatever we do.

And ... we will not succeed in moving Congress probably, and Congress probably will not stop the president from doing this. And that's where we're heading. That's a very ugly, ugly prospect.

However, I think it's up to us to work to increase that small perhaps - anyway not large - possibility and probability to avert this within the next 15 months, aside from the effort that we have to make for the rest of our lives.

RESTORING THE REPUBLIC

Getting back the constitutional government and improving it will take a long time. And I think if we don't get started now, it won't be started under the next administration.

Getting out of Iraq will take a long time. Averting Iran and averting a further coup in the face of a 9/11, another attack, is for right now, it can't be put off. It will take a kind of political and moral courage of which we have seen very little...

We have a really unusual concentration here and in this audience, of people who have in fact changed their lives, changed their position, lost their friends to a large extent, risked and experienced being called terrible names, "traitor," "weak on terrorism" - names that politicians will do anything to avoid being called.

How do we get more people in the government and in the public at large to change their lives now in a crisis in a critical way? How do we get Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid for example? What kinds of pressures, what kinds of influences can be brought to bear to get Congress to do their jobs? It isn't just doing their jobs. Getting them to obey their oaths of office.

I took an oath many times, an oath of office as a Marine lieutenant, as an official in the Defense Department, as an official in the State Department as a Foreign Service officer. A number of times I took an oath of office which is the same oath office taken by every member of Congress and every official in the United States and every officer in the United States armed services.

And that oath is not to a Commander in Chief, which is not mentioned. It is not to a fuehrer. It is not even to superior officers. The oath is precisely to protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Now that is an oath I violated every day for years in the Defense Department without realizing it when I kept my mouth shut when I knew the public was being lied into a war as they were lied into Iraq, as they are being lied into war in Iran.

I knew that I had the documents that proved it, and I did not put it out then. I was not obeying my oath which I eventually came to do.

I've often said that Lt. Ehren Watada - who still faces trial for refusing to obey orders to deploy to Iraq which he correctly perceives to be an unconstitutional and aggressive war - is the single officer in the United States armed services who is taking seriously in upholding his oath.

The president is clearly violating that oath, of course. Everybody under him who understands what is going on and there are myriad, are violating their oaths. And that's the standard that I think we should be asking of people.

CONGRESSIONAL COURAGE

On the Democratic side, on the political side, I think we should be demanding of our Democratic leaders in the House and Senate - and frankly of the Republicans - that it is not their highest single absolute priority to be reelected or to maintain a Democratic majority so that Pelosi can still be Speaker of the House and Reid can be in the Senate, or to increase that majority.

I'm not going to say that for politicians they should ignore that, or that they should do something else entirely, or that they should not worry about that.

Of course that will be and should be a major concern of theirs, but they're acting like it's their sole concern. Which is business as usual. "We have a majority, let's not lose it, let's keep it. Let's keep those chairmanships." Exactly what have those chairmanships done for us to save the Constitution in the last couple of years?

I am shocked by the Republicans today that I read in the Washington Post who yesterday threatened a filibuster if we ... get back habeas corpus. The ruling-out of habeas corpus with the help of the Democrats did not get us back to George the First -- it got us back to before King John 700 years ago in terms of counter-revolution.

We need some way, and Ann Wright has one way, of sitting in, in Conyers office and getting arrested. Ray McGovern has been getting arrested, pushed out the other day for saying the simple words "swear him in" when it came to testimony.

I think we've got to somehow get home to them [in Congress] that this is the time for them to uphold the oath, to preserve the Constitution, which is worth struggling for in part because it's only with the power that the Constitution gives Congress responding to the public, only with that can we protect the world from mad men in power in the White House who intend an attack on Iran.

And the current generation of American generals and others who realize that this will be a catastrophe have not shown themselves - they might be people who in their past lives risked their bodies and their lives in Vietnam or elsewhere, like [Colin] Powell, and would not risk their career or their relation with the president to the slightest degree.

That has to change. And it's the example of people like those up here who somehow brought home to our representatives that they as humans and as citizens have the power to do likewise and find in themselves the courage to protect this country and protect the world. Thank you.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 41
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/6/2007 11:38:30 AM
You're right. Any citizenry can be lead by the nose by someone charismatic and smart enough to do it, but that doesn't automatically mean for evil. It can also be used for the good, if the leader has the proper vision and motives. The greatest leaders this country has ever produced—Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, Kennedy, Reagan (yes, I would rank him, for winning the Cold War and restoring American pride if nothing else)—could lead blind people in a sandstorm. But they did it in the service of great ideals, and made the country better for it.

What I see now is way too much defeatism and cynicism. People think there are no good leaders ("they're all crooks and idiots, so why vote for 'em" mentality), that everyone "else" is corrupt (funny how self-righteous people can be when they exclude their own faults, imperfections, selfishness, and greed), and our "elected" leaders are not "worthy" of following.

It can also be said that when this profound cynicism reaches a tipping point, where "nobody" can measure up, people get the leaders they deserve.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 42
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/6/2007 11:49:16 AM
You cant have it both ways & say that NIE report #1 was dismissed because it was manufactured & skewed in favor of Bush, then say NIE report #2 is the God's truth, when most agencies this time are headed by Bush apointees.

It's not that simple. The NIE regarding the threat Iraq posed was fairly sound. The problem arose when it was summarized (aka "white paper") in an unclassified form for easier dispersal and consumption for the congress. This white paper somehow ended up exaggerating the degree and the immediacy of the threat that Iraq posed. Add in a flukish error in information regarding Iraq outsourcing materials from Niger, Powell's credibility in the world arena, Bush officials bullying out opposing viewpoints, and... well, a bunch of other tragic happenings, and you see what the result is.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 44
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History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/6/2007 2:10:55 PM
I'll quote from your article:
"We judge with moderate confidence that the earliest possible date Iran would be technically capable of producing enough highly enriched uranium for a weapon is late 2009, but that this is very unlikely," the report says. A more likely time frame for that production is between 2010 and 2015, it concludes.
1) So, the earliest that Iran could have weapons-grade material is 2 years from now!
2) Please consider that I read a book on nuclear power, that said that even completely passive nuclear reactors have the ability to develop weapons-grade material. I believe Canada was one case where this was discovered to be possible.
3) Also, it appears that Nuclear Power, although a power source, is not that much more cost-effective than coal, oil, gas, or other sources of power.

There is a simple solution: Solar Power. Iran has lots of sun, far more than a lot of countries, and it has a lot of empty, desert land, that could be filled with fields of solar panels, that could then be linked and used to provide cheap, free electricity. The only cost would be the upkeep of those panels.
America could offer to sell such panels at cost, and if Iran could not afford as many panels as they wanted, Uncle Same could give an interest-free loan with a cast-iron contract, that would protect Iran in all situations, even if Iran couldn't always meet its loan payments. It could invite Iranian scientists and engineers to America to inspect the panels, and to learn how to set them up for themselves, so that American engineers could not be accused of spying on Iran.
If Iran suspected America of selling bugged or dangerous panels, America could give the loan, with a condition in the contract that the money would only be provided as a direct payment to the supplier of Iran's choice, of said panels.
It's a win-win situation. America gets Iran out of the Nuclear Programme, and Iran gets even cheaper power than its Nuclear Programme could ever give them.
If Iran refused, it would imply to the world that Iran doesn't want power, but material for use in nuclear weapons, and then America would be blameless in the case of a war.

But, could you really see America doing that?
And, could you really see Iran accepting that idea, despite its obvious advantages?
 passionteman
Joined: 3/7/2005
Msg: 45
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:13:06 AM
Even if Iran has weapons in its hands right at this moment, they wouldn't scare me at all because they have no history of using nuclear weapons on humans, nor have invaded other countries, killing their innocent people and exploiting their resources.

However, the United States government has used nuclear weapons on humans as well as invaded other countries illegally, killing innocent men, women and children.

I would be more scared of nut jobs in Washington using their radical ideologies to wipe the world of other people for their own supremacy.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 47
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:26:06 AM

However, the United States government has used nuclear weapons on humans as well as invaded other countries illegally, killing innocent men, women and children.


More revisionist garbage. Just what are they teaching in today's schools?

Untold more "innocent men, women, and children" were killed by conventional bombs in WW2 than the atomic ones combined. Many more millions were slaughtered in Nazi death camps and by the Japanese in countless civilian atrocities in places like China, Burma, the Philippines, and other island conquests.

Remember, you're looking through a 60-yr prism of experience and expanded knowledge. Think back to that time. Atomic weapons were brand new, and 99% of the people still couldn't get their minds around the concept. Most thought nuclear weapons were just much bigger versions of conventional bombs, and simply didn't know or understand about the awful effects of fallout and radiation sickness (and that goes to even the military leaders at the time). The term "Nuclear Winter" wasn't even coined yet?

Some can even argue that using those early, primitive bombs gave the world a glimpse into the horrifying effects of nuclear warfare, before much more devastatingly ambitious weapons like H-Bombs were invented, and have scared people straight since. If the bombs were never used, we'd never have learned its sobering lessons so soon nor had a touchstone of knowledge to go by.

For those that may offer it up, I also don't buy the argument that the bomb shouldn't have been used because Japan was on its knees and ready to capitulate. Baloney. I've done a lot or research on the subject and am thoroughly convinced we only had two "real" options at the time: either invade using overwhelming conventional forces (with all the attendant destruction and annihilation that would have entailed), or dropped the bombs. The American public would NOT have stood by to just "wait" things out and allow Japan to starve itself to death. Americans wanted the war done—period—by "any" means necessary. People didn't want it to last one second longer than need be. Do you know that even "after" two atomic bombs, Japanese militarists "still" wanted to continue fighting, and were dedicated to having the country commit national suicide? This was the kind of enemy we were fighting. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed and the Japanese surrendered before even "more" bombs were prepared and used.

No, I have no problem with the decision to use the bomb back then. Arguments to the contrary are just utter fantasy, a sorry attempt to rewrite history, and a complete disconnect with the realities of the time.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 48
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History
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:48:42 AM

Are your advocating invading a country because IF they decided to start their weapons program, they might have one in 2 years? Remember it's not active right now, unlike say North Korea they're not making any indications that they want a weapon.
My post made it clear. Nuclear power is not the most efficient means of energy production, by any means. I love Nuclear Power. I just know that it is not harnessed correctly. Offer them a far more efficient alternative, that has no down-side, with no military applications. Pay for it, if needs be. Wars cost far more than most people realise. The only people who benefit are the people who have major shares in the Arms Manufacturers. Like Bush's grandfather in WWII. Do you really think that Dubya doesn't have major shares in the main suppliers of Arms to the US Army? If he does, how can you claim that he isn't biased to keep wars going? Did you know that I was in Israel for the Second Gulf War? Did you know that the main point of discussion in Israel, and the news, in the days leading up to the war, was the stranglehold that America had on the Global Steel Industry? That was a clear example of America trying to exert a monopoly, no different than Microsoft. The Justice Department declared that Microsoft had to split into 2 separate companies. If the war had not happened, and the Justice Department had sat in trial on America's treatment of Global Steel, it would have had no choice but to declare that America had to stop its unfair practices, or be split into 2. However, the war happened, and the subject got side-lined. How many other crimes have been side-lined as a result of the war?

There are practical, peaceful solutions. They are not being pursued, because that would mean no war. No war, means no profit for rich Arms manufacturers and Defence contractors. No war, means that American strangleholds on the Economy of many countries will become Headline News. No war, means that Congress has the time to challenge the American Government on its bad practices. No war is good for the American People. No war is bad for the corrupt politicians. So, practical, peaceful solutions are avoided at all costs. Even the lives of the American People.

Americans wanted the war done—period—by "any" means necessary. People didn't want it to last one second longer than need be.
So, the ends justify the means? That's what the Priests said in the Spanish Inquisition.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 49
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/7/2007 10:03:38 AM

So, the ends justify the means? That's what the Priests said in the Spanish Inquisition.


Are you seriously trying to tell me you're equating "The Greatest Generation", the American generation that more than any other stopped a new Dark Age by defeating Hitler and the Japanese, then afterward saved Western Europe from anarchy and starvation, and spent billions more rebuilding Europe and Japan, with the Spanish Inquisition????

Now I REALLY know just how much bile and twisted prejudice the US haters in this forum really have. Just unbelievable.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 50
The United States is once again suppressing information that runs counter to invasion.
Posted: 12/7/2007 10:17:58 AM
Oh come on now, I happen to agree with you that dropping the bomb was the right decision given what was known or believed at the time.
But, there are valid arguments on the other side of this issue. To just call anybody who makes these arguments "US haters" is both disengeuous and kind of against the whole spirit of having open forums like this.
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