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 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 1
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FREE Federalized Health CarePage 1 of 31    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31)
People need health care and the government already does it so well. Medicare, Medicaid, VA Medical Centers, S CHIP, etc... and still we are told 47 million do not have health care. Where did Congress go wrong? All these programs and the government still fails us and yet the people want the government to provide healthcare for all of us. Will the people ever learn?

Just like people going hungry. The government has provided us with the New Deal, The Great Society, Social Security, Food Stamps, WIC, etc..... Trillions transfered from the wealthy to the poor, yet we still have poor people and people going hungry. Maybe government is not the answer.
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 2
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Posted: 12/14/2007 11:17:20 PM
Well if you think Universal healthcare should be a right, I think FREE Universal Food should be a right. You need food to live. The Romans provided FREE food to its citizens, why can't we? Oh yeah, I forgot the problem in the Roman solution. They had SLAVES to do all the work!!!!
 SpaceSquirrel
Joined: 4/22/2006
Msg: 3
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Posted: 12/15/2007 1:27:09 AM
ihaveaname4you said:



What does Canada do for the US?
We are more healthy than what you are thinking here in the US. We have a pretty good life expectancy.
Also you say "keep dreaming," and I say the dream is here and alive in the US. We are the most charitable nation in the world.


Canada sells us 17% of our total imports. That's more than any other nation (including China, though if you take the EU altogether they would be almost 18%). They are also our top supplier of oil. An absurd number of celebrities are also from Canada (Shania Twain, Michael J. Fox, William Shatner, Howie Mandel, Dan Aykroyd, Peter Jennings, Jack Kerouac, Jim Carrey)

U.S. life expectancy of 78.2 years is well above the world average of 67.2, but among industrialized nations, not so impressive at 38th in the world, behind Cuba, appreciably behind the 80+ years for the top 15 nations (including Canada and France).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

If you look at things proportionally, the US is nowhere near the most charitable. The Center for Global Development compiles a "Commitment to Development Index". In the "Aid" category, the US finished 19th out of 21 ahead of only Greece and Japan, based largely on % of income/GDP given. The US only appears so charitable because our economy is so large. 0.17% of Gross National Income compared to 0.36% for Germany, 0.47% for France, 0.52% for UK, and 1.03% for Sweden (only Greece was lower at 0.16%) see:
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs
and
http://www.cgdev.org/section/initiatives/_active/cdi/_components/aid/
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 4
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/15/2007 4:49:47 AM
I find it funny you keep calling it "Free" Healthcare- doesn't someone pay for it?

>>> The Romans provided FREE food to its citizens, why can't we?

Wasn't that the reason Rome was abandoned by its government? That it was filled with unemployed masses who leached off the people?

>>>To depend on societies charitable nature is not realistic.

And to depend on the violent actions of others for your health is immoral.
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 5
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Posted: 12/15/2007 2:02:20 PM
If the US adopts a Socialized Healthcare system, where will the Canadians go for good quality healthcare delivered in a timely matter?
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 6
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Posted: 12/15/2007 2:12:15 PM
Try doing a websearch.

Medical bills is the number one cause of bankruptcy in America.

Just because you haven't personally seen it is NOT a valid argument! That just means you are ignorant of the world around you. You must be a republican???
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 7
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Posted: 12/15/2007 2:23:08 PM
Well then the solution to that would be mandatory catrostrophic Health Care Insurance for all. Then people could just take care of normal healthcare themselves, but Congress is going overboard once again.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 8
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Posted: 12/15/2007 2:27:19 PM
We could provide a natioanl healthcare system that rivals any in the world by eliminating the Iraq Occupaion and eliminating the healthcare insurance industry. more than a third of every HC dollar is spent on the Insurance buracracy. (It doesn't have to be gov't to be a buracracy!)
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 9
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Posted: 12/15/2007 3:24:25 PM
First off, I doubt the Mods are interested in another "Canada Versus America" Debate.

But here we go anyways.....

>>> The US is the most charitable country in world with its own citizens.

Gotta source? 'Cause Sqrl certainly does.

>>> The US is also the most religious country in Western culture;

Once again- gotta source? Cause the CIA World Factbook and through it the US Census contradicts you.

Mexico, Religion;
Roman Catholic 76.5%, Protestant 6.3% (Pentecostal 1.4%, Jehovah's Witnesses 1.1%, other 3.8%), other 0.3%, unspecified 13.8%, none 3.1% (2000 census)

Canada, Religion;
Roman Catholic 42.6%, Protestant 23.3% (including United Church 9.5%, Anglican 6.8%, Baptist 2.4%, Lutheran 2%), other Christian 4.4%, Muslim 1.9%, other and unspecified 11.8%, none 16% (2001 census)

United States;
Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

My, looks like Mexico has more "religiousity"

>>>What does Canada offer as a neighbor to the US besides critcism and the desire to make a profit off them?

We are co-dependent nations- we are each others best trade partners, with over 1/5 of all American Exports going to Canada and more imports than China going into the states, meanwhile over 4/5 of Canadian Exports going to the states and over half of all imports into Canada coming from the states- there is 2 Billion dollars everyday being exchanged between our two countries- we need each other to have a healthy economy.

Its not about who is better than the other- we need each other equally, and either country would suffer greatly at the loss of the other.

>>>Canada never has to worry about having an advanced military becasue the US has one. If it wasn't for the US Canada could be wiped out by Iran.

Actually, while, yes, Canada has a smaller military, they also have a far smaller population, and because of that, can afford less troops and less equipment(which is completely logical)

Nonetheless, Canada's Military involvement is significiant with Americans- currently, there are more Canadians in Afghanistan than Americans, and despite opposing the war on Iraq, we have sent troops to help keep the country stable, unlike many many other American allies who are quickly abandoning the states

So our military actions is pretty simple- we're too busy fighting your wars to have a large reserve on the home front- and honestly, why would we need one? Our countries make far more money off each other as separate countries than what we would ever own under the same banner.....

But Please, please don't continue to ruin this topic with this BS- which country is better has nothing to do with the title topic.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 11
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Posted: 12/16/2007 7:26:30 AM
>>>>No problems. No costs associated with it. I like our system.

But doesn't that imply that your stance on Universal Healthcare is subjective? I've been relatively healthy my entire life, never required emergancy services, and if I'm lucky, never will- and yet I have spend thousands on other peoples medical expenses- the things I do need, like glasses and some chipped teeth repaired, are not covered by the thousands of dollars I've spent- so while from your point of view, it was money well spent, but from my point of view, I could have used that money I spent on healthcare I'm not using and actually use it to live an actual healthier life.

And in case of any future risks to my health, using the money I'm saving not by spending money on an Universal Healthcare system, I could easily afford a far more comprehensive insurance system that actually addresses my medical needs- from where I am sitting, a private system is far, far better for me- from where you're sitting, both of us being forced to pool our money together is better off for you- which one of us is losing in this situation?
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 12
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Posted: 12/17/2007 5:05:27 PM
We no longer have Free Care for the poor in Massachusetts because Mitt the Nitwit Romney decided to mandate that everyone have private insurance even if people can't afford the premiums.

Having real universal health care would be much better. I would love to have the choie to opt out of risking medical bankruptcy, etc. I'd rather pay a couple of extra bucks in taxes rather than see my assets go up in flame because a private insurer would not pay the medical bills or because of the excessive amount of copayments involved. UHC would benefit EVERYONE from the richest to the poorest.
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 13
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Posted: 12/17/2007 8:21:51 PM
Death is part of life and unfortunately we can not change it. Yes it is sad, when someone's life is cut down by a terminal disease. especially the younger they are.

What we need is universal catastrophic healthcare and let the market decide what the rest of us pay.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 14
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Posted: 12/18/2007 7:26:44 PM
That's so true, nice guy. I feel that we as a society should pull together and have a good health care system so that the American Cancer Society can focus on other issues such as cancer research. No one should be denied care because of a greedy private insurance company or because the person cannot afford health insurance. Besides, even the wealthy can benefit from universal health care by not worrying about their hard earned assets being taken away due to overly high medical bills because of using an inadequate or greedy private insurance carrier when faced with catastrophic illness. Basically, UHC benefits EVERYONE, and I believe that it is high time that we as Americans stood together and demanded real health care for all.
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 15
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Posted: 12/18/2007 9:54:18 PM
Go to any US Emergency room to request treatment. If they fail to treat you, they have violated federal law and you will have a nice settlement when the civil lawsuit is over, so how can you say there is no ACCESS????

Some people do not have medical insurance since they are:
a. so rich they do not need it. see Bill Gates.
b. between jobs and choose not to get COBRA
c. Illegal aliens, who can still get FREE healthcare
d. College graduates(a very health group compared to the rest of us) who have not found a job yet.

Also if Medicare and Medicaid are already for people who have no health insurance, are those programs failing to do their jobs?????
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 16
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Posted: 12/19/2007 8:35:28 AM
>>>
How much does it cost to send a letter from Los angeles to New York by the post office compared to FEDEX or UPS.

Cheaper, but not because the post office does it better or even cheaper- its because its against federal law to transport letters cheaper than the federal post office- they have whats called a Statutory monopoly. Basically, if you offer to do their services for less, you're breaking the law. The exemption that UPS and Fedex have is they can deliver it, but at a higher price and cannot use mailboxes.

According to Wikipedia, this has been outlined in Article I, Section 8, Clause 7 of the Constitution, which lasted up until 1979, when competition was allowed, so long as it was twice the cost of the post office.

In the mid 1800's, there was direct competition with the postal office, spefically with Lysander Spooner, who offered a superior service at a lower cost to the US Mail, which quickly forced the US Mail to rapidly drop its prices in order to stay competitive, before Mr. Spooners business was closed down by the government because he dared to build a better business. The average price for postage in 1845 for federal systems was 14.5 cents, while private systems was 5 cents. By 1851, the federal system was cut down to 3 cents, with all private systems by then being outlawed. Also, by 1860, the United States Postal System officially depended on taxes for over half of their expenses, while 15 years earlier, they were entirely self sufficient.

So its not unrealistic to imagine the government closing businesses because they can't compete. They've done it before.

>>>In canada the current federal government is a right wing one and totally in suport of our health care system and is pumping in more money to improve it.

Because if something isn't working, throw money at it!

>>>In my lifetime i have paid LESS then $200 out of pocket and that include drugs.

I will be lucky if I don't have to shell out $1000 next year, despite never once requiring medical services.

Hell, I had to shell out $200 out of my pocket before I was 15, so I dunno under what rock you've been living- drugs and treatment are not universally free in Canada. Could you please justify why I should have to pay for other peoples medical expenses while my actual medical needs are completely ignored?

>>>canadian do NOT go bankrupt from medical bills.

Anyone wanna take this one?

>>>When there is NO profit involved in health care then people only decide what doctor or hospital to go to based on QUALITY of service and NOT price.

What about to the Doctors? They certainly have a mountain of school bills to pay? Why shouldn't they profit after nearly a decade of training?

Not to mention, Quality of service may be one thing, but Quantity is a huge issue in Canada- there simply are not enough Doctors to go around.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 17
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/19/2007 9:30:47 AM
>>>I did NOT say anything about dental and that is what i have spend money out of pocket.

I need glasses- that means I have to pay for a Doctor for a prescription, and a technician to construct my glasses. Furthermore, I have a few chipped teeth. None of these are included in the taxes I pay towards my health- I have lived a relatively healthy life. And yet a fair sum of my money for each paycheck goes towards something that, if I were to choose not to pay because for 1/5 of my life thus far it is completely worthless, I would be sent to a place to be raped by criminals.

>>>You are young so do NOT understand that when you are older then other people are helping to pay for your medical treatment.

Oh, i get it- I cannot possibly comprehend the fact that my money is being taken from me not to benefit me, but to benefit others against my will.

See; MikeTheWriter's comments about the Government having their hand in my pocket

And what if I want to reject it? What if I want to take my money over the years and set it aside in case of future accidents? Or what if choose to take my money and invest it in, of all things, a private insurance company that actually contributes to my medical needs? I work hard for my money, and even if I'm wrongfully investing it, who are you to decide where I should spend my money? Moreover, if we're taking decades from now, then save the most extreme circumstances, I would easily be able to afford it with the taxes saved, let alone afford it through private insurance.

>>>In the USA about 1 in 2 bankrupt are at least partly or fully the result of medical bills.

Gotta source?

>>>A GP in canada make about the same as ones in the USA but medical education for a canadian doctor is much less. Also admistration costs are much less for a canadian doctor.

Once again, Source please.

But I don't think its really a great thing to brag about how Canadian doctors have less education- nor does it really address my issue. You claimed that healthcare shouldn't be led by profit- but even ours is- all healthcare is, and to believe that people will spend nearly a decade in study and ask for nothing but the bare minimum in return is living in denile.

>>>That is an issue in most countries including the USA and a concern because many doctors will be retiring in the next ten years.

And is universal healthcare really attracting the doctors our country desperately needs?
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 18
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Posted: 12/19/2007 10:37:15 PM
If Canadian healthcare is so great, why do Canadians,especially those with terminal diseases come to the US to get treatment, since they can not get timely treatment in Canada???
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 19
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Posted: 12/20/2007 8:44:00 PM
American Oil suppliers:

22% from Canada
21% from Mexico
20% from domestic US sources including Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico
19 % from Hugo Chavez Incorporated
18% from other suppliers including 3% from the middle east

Most of the Middle East's oil goes to Europe and China
 KrakenReborn
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 20
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/21/2007 1:34:32 PM
Did You Know?

A fifth of the world's bone marrow transplants, a treatment pioneered by the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, are performed in Seattle?

Seattle researchers have won two Nobel Prizes in Medicine in the last five years?


Many amputees in Vietnam and Thailand can now walk thanks to prosthetic devices and computer hardware and software designed by Washington state research teams, headed by an orthopedic surgeon and a former Boeing engineer?

The University of Washington Medical Center is ranked among the top ten teaching hospitals in the nation? The automatic gene-sequencing machine used in laboratories around the world was developed by a professor at the University of Washington?

Virginia Mason Medical Center's Research Center--an international leaders in diabetes research-- analyzes and modifies genes associated with Type I diabetes?

The University of Washington and Harborview Medical Center have gained national and international acclaim for excellence in AIDS research?

The Program for Appropriate Technology in Health (PATH), headquartered in Seattle, has managed more than 500 health and family planning projects in 54 developing countries?

A Greater Seattle area company is designing medical facilities in China, Japan and Mexico?

Medic One, an emergency response program developed in Seattle, has become a model for other such programs worldwide?

One city seems to have become a world leader all it's own, and the whole nation is questioned?? I would like to see a source on that statement.

 KrakenReborn
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 21
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Posted: 12/21/2007 1:47:45 PM
Try that again niceguy, I did not understand the content.
 KrakenReborn
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 22
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/21/2007 2:29:01 PM
Mothers in British Columbia are having a baby boom, but it's the United States that has to deliver, and that has some proud Canadians blasting their highly touted government healthcare system.

"I'm a born-bred Canadian, as well as my daughter and son, and I'm ashamed," Jill Irvine told FOX News. Irvine's daughter, Carri Ash, is one of at least 40 mothers or their babies who've been airlifted from British Columbia to the U.S. this year because Canadian hospitals didn't have room for the preemies in their neonatal units.

"It's a big number and bigger than the previous capacity of the system to deal with it," said Adrian Dix, a British Columbia legislator, told FOXNews.com. "So when that happens, you can't have a waiting list for a mother having the baby. She just has the baby."
"I just want to go home and see my kids," she said from her Seattle hospital bed. "I think it's stupid I have to be here."

Canada's socialized health care system, hailed as a model by Michael Moore in his documentary, "Sicko," is hurting, government officials admit, citing not enough money for more equipment and staff to handle high risk births.

Sarah Plank, a spokeswoman for the British Columbia Ministry of Health, said a spike in high risk and premature births coupled with the lack of trained nurses prompted the surge in mothers heading across the border for better care.

"The number of transfers in previous years has been quite low," Plank told FOXNews.com. "Before this recent spike we went for more than a year with no transfers to the U.S., so this is something that is happening in other provinces as well."

Critics say these border crossings highlight the dangers of a government-run health care system.

"The Canadian healthcare system has used the United States as a safety net for years," said Michael Turner of the Cato Institute. "In fact, overall about one out of every seven Canadian physicians sends someone to the United States every year for treatment."

Neonatal intensive care units in Alberta and Ontario have also been stretched to capacity, she said.

Is that what your saying never occurs?
 Flyers_Phan
Joined: 1/16/2005
Msg: 23
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Posted: 12/21/2007 3:33:16 PM
ah, niceguy yet again spouting off about the benefits of universal healthcare, this guy is so blind, perhaps he should go in for some lasik and pay some cash for it. Talk to me about how great it is when they decide to pay for my eye surgery pal, unless you wanna give me the $7,000 it costs that OHIP doesn't want to cover. But hey its ok, I'll end up losing my vision and have to fight to go on disability and I'll enjoy doing nothing while you pay for me to do nothing.

You annoy the hell out of me with this crusade that you have going on, I hope you end up being in a position where you get sick and get told, oh, we don't cover that, or that you have to live the reality of waiting long, you think waiting 109 days for a hip replacement is somehow not long, are you stupid? 109 days for a person to be in pain perhaps and not being able to walk, tell them it isn't long. Wake the hell up and take the blinders off, universal health care sucks, so does the crap they have in the States, especially seeing on the news how a 17 year old girl died because her health insurance wouldn't cover the liver transplant she needed, saying it was experimental, finally they agreed to cover it but she dies like the same day.

I'm all for universal health care but when they decide to not cover something and let people die, or go blind or whatever, what the hell is so great about that eh?



A canadian has health insurance from before they are born till they die and canadian do NOT go bankrupt from medical bills.


no they just die because they can't afford treatment



The American health care system in the USA is a mess


and it isn't in Canada, again, you're nuts



You have a FREE eye exam every 2 years in Ontario


how generous, I get 1 free every year coz I have an eye disease, again, how generous



They pay for lazer eye surger if it's to correct injuries or diseases conditions. I should know, my mother got it free of charge.

Expecting them to pay for it so you dont' have to wear glasses is like expecting them to pay for your girlfriends boob job.


No, if you look on OHIP website, they tell you what eye surgeries are paid for and I only came across one that was covered by it, and it wasn't lasik. What I have does not require a lasik surgery, and I do have corneal disease. I don't need the surgery so as not to ever have to wear glasses, I need it so i can see with glasses.




 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 24
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Posted: 12/21/2007 5:13:12 PM
I think the American health care system has been a bad mistake, tragically causing too many people to lose their lives due to denial of needed care.

There is MORE rationing in the US system than in Canada. That is a crock of baloney to say that having UHC would result in rationing in the US health care system when we ALREADY have terrible rationing and people dying due to lack of care.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 25
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Posted: 12/21/2007 5:37:25 PM
Try saying that about people being refused health care in America to Cape Garden Girl's mom who had to battle an insurance company which denied her treatment for a few months before finally winning that fight. Try telling that to ME after I waited six months for surgery. Try telling that to those who are totally denied care and end up dead because the insurance company would not pay for much needed treatments to keep these people alive. It happens every day here in America and it's very sad. UHC will NOT make things worse, UHC will be a huge improvement over the bloated, profit driven private health "care" system, er, scam that Americans are stuck with!

Being denied care or forcing people to fight insurance companies is RATIONING, and is worse than dialing up the UHC provider to book the care needed and knowing that the care is coming, even if there's a wait, which occurs anyway in private health care systems as well as UHC systems. The difference is not worrying about getting the needed care vs. fighting a greedy insurance carrier to get that care. We Americans should be free of that burden of fighting insurance companies and worrying about medical bankruptcy. I would give anything for the USA to finally get caught up with the rest of the free world so that I could simply dial up my health care provider and get the care I need without the hassles of private insurance companies.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 26
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Posted: 12/22/2007 11:50:05 AM
As I understand it liposuction and laser hair removal procedures are not the kind of things covered under UHC. Those types of procedures are not medically necessary and should be paid for out of pocket for those who can afford those.

No one should have to wait for treatment of something serious because of a private insurance carrier being greedy. Nice guy has it right that serious stuff should be treated quickly and I for one am glad for the Canadians that they do not have to fight insurance companies thus having to delay treatment for serious health problems. We in the USA should enjoy that freedom from the greed of private insurance companies.
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