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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Demise of America - lack of apprentices      Home login  
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 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 6
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Demise of America - lack of apprenticesPage 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
My experience in the work field is that:
1) Most employers are looking for someone who has been doing the same work for the past 6 months, so they can start work right away without any training.
2) Those employers who are looking to train someone, want someone with NO experience whatsoever, so they will take on all of the employers training with no questions.
3) Many employers are firing people regularly, and looking to have a high turnover of employment.
4) Many employers are looking for people who are YES people, who will agree to fulfil the desires of their employer, even if they are criminal.
5) The original design of computers was to solve the problems that could NEVER be solved by people. However, modern employers are using computers to replace employees so they can make more profit share for the directors.
6) There have been programmes on employers in the last few years, which clearly show that there are fewer and fewer employers who provide a happy and respectful work environment.
7) More and more employees are leaving high-paying jobs in favour of jobs where they get respect.

All of this shows me that there is a definite encouragement to return to a workhouse mentality, where most people are employed as unskilled labourers, who get treated very badly in general, and get paid only the minimum wage.

I'd say that the modern economy has made the need for "apprentices" largely obsolete: though many fields retain apprenticeships, such as electricians.
Being in computer programming, I have been required to learn the business of every program that I write, so I have been required to learn the ins-and-outs of quite a few professions. There is a constant outcry at the lack of truly skilled tradesmen and professionals. If anything, the modern economy has done away with the need for unskilled labour, because modern devices require accurate measurement, attention to the right kind of detail, and the one thing that computers cannot be programmed with, are the things that only come from learning at the feet of a master of 20+ years experience.

It's near a VR world. Easier, quicker, and cheaper to build something on a computer and test it there before physically making it over and over with testing. Build it once and test after the computer has its go with it.
It no longer needs a common labourer to do the basic drawing. But that means that you need people with more mental skills and greater experience than ever. Otherwise, you get a building project that takes 10 times the cost to build, because the guys who are designing it don't have the experience to think it through properly. This is exactly what we are seeing in the UK.

While some fields will always be needed it really no long a physical world we live in now and they are becomes something that is not needed in a massive scale. Look at blacksmiths from the 1800's. Do you know any near ya? In the 1800's you had to and most towns had more than 1. They where are common as churches.
There is STILL a great need for custom-made parts, because things go wrong, and the old parts are still made, but in a new shape that won't fit your machine. But because there are no more blacksmiths, people are forced to buy new machines, for the lack of a part that costs $4. There are still mechanics for cars, but they charge a fortune. As a result, the only practical developments are mass-produced articles, that and incredibly expensive custom articles.

Many fields are becoming lost due to the computer and this is just the beginning.
Computers were designed to help employees do the things they COULDN'T do. Instead they are being used to ONLY do the things that employees can already do, thus replacing humans, and stunting human development.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 8
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:32:59 PM

That is supposed to be the primary purpose of a business, make money...
The REAL primary purpose of a business is to provide a long-term income for the owners and the employees.

Saying that the primary purpose of a business is to make money, has a human equivalent, that being the primary purpose of a human body is to eat. But if we eat as much as we can, then we get fat and lazy, we stop looking for new food, we don't store food for later on, and in a few months, we run out of food and die.

That is why sensible humans think long-term about their food, and about their income. But how many humans in our society do you know who think smart?

While we're at it, consider that the primary purpose of a government, would be to ensure the long-term smooth and happy running of that society. But how many politicians do that? Given that they are our leaders, and our examples of how to act, is it any wonder that we squander what we have?

Cold as it may seem, bottom line is that the dollar is it, it's what keeps our economy running.
Cold as it may seem, those people who set the society up in the first place, in a way that meant that it would take a couple hundred years for it to self-destruct, is what is keeping our economy running, not the influence of today's people, and that really is cold.

At this point you are start down the path of VR, creation of something in the computer can now be ran though tests to see if X works or wont. Later that can be made in RL and tested again.
Someone has to design those tests, and put those tests in a computer. So, the system only works, when anytime people are finding that RL does not match VR, they are making new tests to make the difference more detectable, and then putting that into computers. Does that happen? The only field that I know of that is approaching RL is car video games.

If the point you’re looking for is that masters are not teaching down then yes that is an impact on everyone no matter what country.
The point you are making is not that masters are not teaching students. It is that the young are saying they know everything. So the young refuse to learn. So the young don't learn anything, but what they have learned from the school of hard knocks.
 thrums
Joined: 7/28/2007
Msg: 9
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/19/2007 4:40:44 PM
Scorpio:

The REAL primary purpose of a business is to provide a long-term income for the owners and the employees.


Actually the primary purpose of a business is to make money for the owner(s), employees only make money as long as the business makes money or the owners need them.


The only field that I know of that is approaching RL is car video games.


3D modeling is a prime example. Our company works with a company that tests military electronics, many time they need to make test fixtures. They model the fixtures using 3D software and send the files to a manufactured who returns the completed items and they fit together and work perfectly.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 10
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/19/2007 5:44:21 PM

Actually the primary purpose of a business is to make money for the owner(s), employees only make money as long as the business makes money or the owners need them.
The primary reason that most people start up a business is to make as much money as possible for themselves and the investors, with no thought to the consequences of such an ill-fated plan. The #1 reason I have seen listed as to the failure of most businesses is because of the lack of a decent business plan, and in every company I've worked for, when the employees were not treated well, because they weren't considered, they worked poorly, did not think things through, and the company made a loss. So, while what you are saying is probably what most people think, it's also the attitude of most people who failed in business.

I'll give you an example: about 10 years ago, I was reading a Marketing magazine, that was comparing the gift shop of the Tate National Gallery in London, with the Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art in New York. The Met's gift shop did about 10 times as much trade as the Tate's. That's 1000%. I read the article, and the main thing that stood out was that the Tate manager talked about profits and how much money he could make out of him employees, and the Met manager talked about investment and how much he could help things by making sure his employees were happy and well-trained. Investment in your employees was the only difference in their own words, and that was worth 1000%.

3D modeling is a prime example. Our company works with a company that tests military electronics, many time they need to make test fixtures. They model the fixtures using 3D software and send the files to a manufactured who returns the completed items and they fit together and work perfectly.
I quite agree. If VR resembled real life, you wouldn't need to have test fixtures made. You could go right into production.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 13
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/19/2007 11:08:44 PM

A computer is a tool like a hammer.
In and of itself, just siting on a table, it is incredibly stupid, dumb as a rock.
How that tool is used by a human operator....the man/machine interaction ,
that is where the art/magic/science happens for new developments.
I know what you mean. I write that interaction. In order to do that, I have to learn the job of every guy who uses my program. Even if I thought I didn't need to, I was told that I had to anyway, and had to sit through days of lectures on how a business worked. I've learned commercial insurance, banking, manufacturing, distribution, accounting, PR, merchandising, recruitment, and pawnbroking. Yet my job is considered "boring" to most people.

Attempting to write code that captures 30-40 years of human knowledge from
hundreds of old world ,master craftsmen, is quite a challenge even in the year 2008.
It is difficult for complex code to be flexible and malleable with changing conditions.
Simulating the real world is no easy feat, only certain aspects have been successful
Yet again, I've found that out. Especially when I've gone into a record store or a bookshop, to get an album or a book, and found out they sold out. So I ask them when they expect to have it in, which I consider a reasonable request. Yet the computer usually cannot tell them. Now, being in programming, I know that these days, many computer systems are set up so that when the stock drops below a certain limit, more stock is automatically re-ordered. It's called JIT (Just In Time) ordering, meaning that you don't place an order on a monthly basis, but Just In Time before your stock runs out. Yet it's exactly the sort of question you would expect sales staff to be asked all the time.

That's only one example. I've got plenty. But I only think about it, because I start imagining how hard it would be to make such a program change, and I only consider it worthwhile if the cost of the change would be minimal, and the time taken to implement it would be very small, and the benefit would be tremendous. However, I've seen quite a few of these things.

This is why I've ended up being told by my boss what to do, but before I needed to code it, the best thing was to go and ask the people who used the program what they wanted, because what the boss really wanted was to make them work more efficiently. What they needed was normally very different from what the boss wanted. However, when I didn't do what the real users wanted, the program turned out to be a bust, and had to be re-written to do that anyway, so it saved me a lot of time and hassle to go to the source. The users, not the bosses. The bosses just pay the bills. It's the users who tell me what to do. Betcha they never taught that in any computer class you heard of, eh?

On television, recently there has been a flurry of shows showing people
who build things using their hands - Monster Garage, American Chopper, etc.
America still loves the entrepreneurial spirit of the backyard garage tinkerer.
You mean like Scrapheap challenge? I love those programmes. They build tanks and snowmobiles out of scrap and garbage. Us Brits love those guys too. Now, if only we could convince employers to employ those guys instead of the "suits", who look good, sound smooth, charge a fortune, and do next to nothing.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 17
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/21/2007 9:24:15 AM
Soapbox time

I see things from a different point of veiw and understand why a lot of the posters see what they see. I design products. I use 3D modeling, CAD/CAM, VR, and a huge array of simulations and optimizations to create products. I test by simulation then build prototypes and test in the lab. Then I take the product to the field and test in the real world. I do my best to talk with as many end users as possible and try to shadow them when possible. Beyond that basic engineering, I am an inventor of technologies and products enabled by those technologies. Here is where I leave the customer and market place behind because new technologies would already exist if the need had been identified in the first place. That gives me an insite beyond the technology. With that said, here are some of my thoughts.

Apprentice in its classical form is obsolete however there is a strong need for a replacement that takes a form near opposite in the classic apprentice practice. The actual physical work, after the design is done, is more and more automated, precise, yet complex and changing. Your PC in front of you has billions of very precise functional components yet is built for less actual cost than say a carraige of olden days with only a couple of dozen functional parts. Cars are far more complex than in years past and heavy industrial equipment is getting that way as well. Yes, at some point a mechanic will have to physically turn the bolts but diagnosing and tuning the machines will be left to computers that are themselves machines with billions of functional components. Unlike in the past, everything has been thoroughly ananlysed, optimized, simulated, and modeled. Good design now requires a much broader array of ever changing knowledge of technologies, not so much specialized skills. Apprenticeship now should be exposure to a wide range of tasks as each and every task is transient.

So what is wrong with industry? In a simple word: politics. I am not just talking government but society in general. We have become a society with a lawyer mentality. This is where people acheive power and influence not by contribution but by deception, obfuscation, and outright taking. To blame the problem on "economics" is looking at a symptom, not the cause. My skills as a high technology engineer and inventor has given me practice at examining problems to their very root at the same time dealing with the corporate leaders, venture capitolists, and their legal staff. Very very few people get to see this much of the picture. Those indocternated in the corporate world are blind to their everyday practices and just as unable to see the whole picture as the assembly line worker. The corporate lawyers are advocates who do battle for the one side paying them never bothering with damage their one-sided battles do or the morality of the efforts. Corporate officers are driven by the directors who hire them to turn profits for the investors who elected the directors. Running amuck in that world are venture capitolists looking for the next "lottery" and convincing themselves they are actually doing good in the end. Kiss a$$ corporate climers often give these gamers the label of entraprenure whe plain manure is a closer description. When they pressured me to bend my ethics to their level for no better reason than their desire to takes investor's money, I simply couldn't bring myself to do it. I really wanted my technologies to be used for something other than ripping off investors and/or the public.

We have lost sight of why corporations exist. Corporations are legal structures created by society and governments to pool labor, technology, and capitol to serve investors, employees, customers, and the society that created them. The lawyer/advocate mentality stops at serving investors. With lawyers in control of virtually all levels of government, the corporations and the lawyers that run them have created special privledges the public neither has for themselves nor is generally aware exists. If you really want to change the picture, don't fall for the well crafted rhetoric of lawyers running for office. That eliminates most of the people running for office. Power corrupts. Simply take it away from those who have it. That is what the constitution of the US attempted to do and has been generally successful but keep in mind, the people interpreting the constitution are lawyers. It has eroded badly. In the oath of their profession, their highest priority is to put aside their moral judgement. To me, that makes them uniquely unqualified to be our leaders and judges. They are not much better than the kings, warlords, facists, socialists, communists, and other power grabbers of history.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 19
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/21/2007 4:52:20 PM

Apprentice in its classical form is obsolete however there is a strong need for a replacement that takes a form near opposite in the classic apprentice practice. The actual physical work, after the design is done, is more and more automated, precise, yet complex and changing. Your PC in front of you has billions of very precise functional components yet is built for less actual cost than say a carraige of olden days with only a couple of dozen functional parts. Cars are far more complex than in years past and heavy industrial equipment is getting that way as well. Yes, at some point a mechanic will have to physically turn the bolts but diagnosing and tuning the machines will be left to computers that are themselves machines with billions of functional components. Unlike in the past, everything has been thoroughly ananlysed, optimized, simulated, and modeled. Good design now requires a much broader array of ever changing knowledge of technologies, not so much specialized skills. Apprenticeship now should be exposure to a wide range of tasks as each and every task is transient.
You are absolutely right, Ahoytheredave. What you may NOT be aware of, is that all of this, and much more, was all part of an apprenticeship. One who had studied in an apprenticeship, used to be called a Master Butcher, a Master Plumber, a Master Plasterer, a Master Engineer. The term meant that you have achieved a certain level of knowledge, practice and experience equal to the other Masters in your trade. All the Masters kept up with the latest trends and technology, and often put forward new innovations in their meetings. It was a symbol of quality, of expertise and of respect. It meant you not only knew your stuff, but you would continue to know your stuff, for the rest of your life. In order to accomplish this, you not only had to know your field expertly, but any other fields that impacted on your field. A Master Butcher would know the whole lifecycle of the animals he chopped up. A Master Plumber would have to know construction and electrics, enough to know when his work might have an effect on the building and on the electrics, as they often would. Health & Safety matters that related to his job and his company, Employment Law and Accounting Practices would also be included.

Someone has to create the "master pattern" for all the equipment that manufactures
items in the world, regardless of what country the actual workers reside in.
This is true, Mr H2O. But consider that artists are paid for the fruits of their labour, but not tradesmen or experts in science-related fields. If a singer makes a new single, that singer is automatically guaranteed exclusive ownership and control of use over that music. If that singer is part of a company, that singer often has a contract that guarantees him part of the rights. But if a programmer makes a new program, that programmer has to take out several expensive patents to protect his software, in each country in the world, and then he has to renew them quite frequently. If he is part of a company, often the contract stipulates that anything he makes is owned by the company.

Consider that on any film, nearly all the people who contributed to the film have to be mentioned in the credits. But when was the last time you saw a car with the words "Modelled on the design of the Model T, invented by Henry Ford", imprinted on its panel? When was the last time you saw an inventor given any credit for the things he designed? Is a film that is mass-produced on a DVD any different than a car that is mass-produced on an assembly line? If anything, the
mass-production of the car is far more reliant on the work of Ford than the mass-production of any DVD is reliant on the film.

Let's face it. Any of us stand to make far more money & get far more fame for putting out a new single, than making a new invention that would benefit the world, unless we are incredibly savvy with the patent and intellectual rights, demanding a share of the profits, and even then, we'll just get fairly wealthy by comparison and doubtful if we would become that famous. After all, who ever heard of the inventor of the electronic calculator, and who doesn't own at least one calculator?

What happened to doing it right the first time - learning via mentoring ?
It's not worth it to spend years learning what to do, because if you really do something well, people will try to copy what you do, and then get someone from a developing country to do it, who will do it for peanuts. But they won't pay you for coming up with the design, and you won't be given much respect for it either. You make far more money and get far more respect from others, if you manufacture and/or sell things, than if you develop the things others are manufacturing and selling. So you make a get a lot more kudos and income from people if you employ tradesmen and engineers, than if you are one. What person in their right mind wants to spend at least 5 years (the average length of an old-style apprenticeship), learning from someone else, when what you really want to do, is figure out who his suppliers are so you can buy from them or their competitors, and set up in business on your own?

We simply don't give designers in practical fields their due. We give it to the businessmen instead. So no-one wants to learn how to design anymore. They all want to be businessmen.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 21
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/21/2007 9:55:26 PM

Attempting to gather all their knowledge, (a lifetime in many cases) within a few weeks is just foolish as many nuances are often overlooked, forgotten and skipped.
It smacks of arrogance with an engineer looking down at the end user.


I would venture to say most engineers try to see the world from an ivory tower. Its much better to see it from eye level. The technicians I have shadowed have far less engineering skills or knowledge of available technology than I do. What they have are tasks and practice I don't have. The process usually starts by making it clear, I am there to learn from them. It progresses to what ifs on both sides. It usually ends with the customer learning why they do some things the way they do them. The process doesn't take weeks, usually hours. We stay in touch throughout the design cycle and they trial the first systems. In they end, they feel they "own" the resulting product.

I do have one exception where we relied on the customer to define the product. A VP at a multi-billion $ company wanted a product to do a specific task for his technicians. Other engineers had been asked if it was possible. Most said no and the rest failed to overcome one particularly difficult technical issue. My VP asked if it was possible and my calculator said yes but would be a very tight design with almost no tolerance provided the technical issue could be solved. I also responded that the whole idea was bad even if possible. The technical issue still needed to be solved. I examined the conflicting requirements from a different point of view than my professors taught in school and a solution seemed possible. After EXTENSIVE simulations and the application of some custom laser trimmed components, I had created the product and my name is the only inventor on the resulting patent. The customer VP issued field trial units to his technicians and they all said they worked just like they were supposed to........ but they didn't like it. The customer didn't buy any and my VP and the account executive were fired. Gee, it really was a bad idea just as I said it was. To paraphrase Chairman Mao, into closed minds, nothing can be put.
 thrums
Joined: 7/28/2007
Msg: 22
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/24/2007 5:18:56 PM
scorpio:

The primary reason that most people start up a business is to make as much money as possible for themselves and the investors, with no thought to the consequences of such an ill-fated plan. The #1 reason I have seen listed as to the failure of most businesses is because of the lack of a decent business plan, and in every company I've worked for, when the employees were not treated well, because they weren't considered, they worked poorly, did not think things through, and the company made a loss. So, while what you are saying is probably what most people think, it's also the attitude of most people who failed in business.


The reason I made the comment was because myself and four friends decided to set up our own company after working for several multi-national defense companies for many years. These companies made money but treated the employees like any other company asset(like a desk or chair) which could be obtained or released at will. It also works both ways, a few years ago a person was thought to be unambitious if they remained with the same company for more than 4 to 5 years.


I quite agree. If VR resembled real life, you wouldn't need to have test fixtures made. You could go right into production.


I guess I did not explain clearly - a test fixture is not a prototype in the context of my statement. A test fixture is a piece of hardware that holds the item to be tested in place. Many items of military hardware are of non-standard shapes(in order to fit in the aircraft/missile/ship/etc) and require supporting in order to run test programs which require operating switches/controls or using test probes to make measurements. The use of 3d modeling allows these items to go from design to production without any intermediate steps.
 BRASS
Joined: 12/8/2005
Msg: 23
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 12/26/2007 3:23:19 PM
When i was in High School I did Aeronautical sheet metal shop, machine shop, and foundary. Before I got my Engineering degre I had to fabricate some of my projects in the machine shop. Actually my graduating class in '78 could probably fabricate anything that society needed back then with the exception of IC chips,
Nowadays that is not the case, we have gone to an information technology, with everything being manufactured in china with slave Labor.

I really did like tinkering with my projects in the machine shop, and debugging them. But gone are the days.
 floristgirl
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 24
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 1/4/2008 7:29:51 PM
In the 90's I was the president of the Canadian Club in a small town, but they sent me off to a fancy convention in Toronto.....Many high profile people attended, as is the case with these clubs....I'm a chef, so would really be considered a blue collar worker....At the end of the few days they asked us to mention what we thought Canada should be paying attention to...and my statement was more money for Apprenticeship Training.....

My sons were in high school during the latter part of the 90's and I really wanted them to take a mechanics class, woodworking, just because I was widowed very young, and thought it a good part of their education,....who knows what would have rubbed off on them
The majority of the boys that attended were macho types, and thought of my boys as sissy's, Fags, and made it uncomfortable all around.....(One of them is an electronic techy type, the other in Theatre, and P.R. )
I know that there is a movement finally to get shops back into high schools.....I envied the boys in shop, when I had to take ridiculous sewing classes, and the cooking was a joke back in the early 60's......

too many parents focus on their children getting a university degree these days, rather than a real skill, with an almost guaranteed job at the end of the training.....with decent wages..Its no wonder so many kids move back home without jobs after they finish a 4 or 5 year degree....
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 26
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:03:40 PM
RE msg 29 by thrums:
The reason I made the comment was because myself and four friends decided to set up our own company after working for several multi-national defense companies for many years. These companies made money but treated the employees like any other company asset(like a desk or chair) which could be obtained or released at will. It also works both ways, a few years ago a person was thought to be unambitious if they remained with the same company for more than 4 to 5 years.
I applaud your sensibilities, thrums. You are in the vast minority, but it is a good way of handling business, regardless. I've worked for similar types of companies and I found their attitude distasteful to say the least. At least one reason why I avoided working for defence contractors for quite a few years.

RE msg 33 by Mr H2O:
Unfortunately most 4 year college and university engineering degrees are "book knowledge"
-Most of my buddies with mechanical engineering degrees will never replace the brakes on my car, I simply don't trust them.
That is exactly how I feel about many people with degrees, Mr H2O. But it does seem as if a person has good social skills, and passed their degree by cramming, that such a person gets handed expensive contracts, and then screws them up, and is never blamed for it. I've only got hired for the work I did, often by walking into a company and solving in 5 minutes a problem that they had no idea of how to solve. However, it seems that because so many people just have good social skills and "book knowledge", they make those who have real experience look bad.

I don't trust anyone who prefers a fancy car to a good old-fashioned mechanical one. Even when it comes to motorbikes, the old mechanical ones run the best, often for 30 or 40 years.

One of my favourite bits is in "My Cousin Vinnie", when Vinnie's girlfriend clearly knows exactly what she's talking about. I'd let a woman like that fix a car, but not a mechanical engineer, just because he's got a degree. He has to show he knows what he's doing.

That approach involved thinking on the front end- time and money spend now
saves more time and money in the future when items need replacement.
A design where 10 items have to removed to get to a part that wears out quickly
is just poor engineering, regardless how elegant or streamlined it may appear.
I have the same problem with computing. I used to work on software that was 30 years old, because it was more reliable than to try and upgrade it. The strange thing is, I eventually found out that for those in the know, they estimate that 75% of the time spent in a computer project needs to be spent in the planning, and if you don't do that, you end up making so many errors and bad designs that it's just not worth it doing it any other way. But try explaining that to a person who has never written a large custom program. They don't get it, till they've had to do it for themselves. As the saying goes:
Measure twice, cut once.
 BlahGrim
Joined: 1/29/2004
Msg: 28
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 3/14/2008 6:09:09 PM
Manufacturing and technology were areas I ignored in studying history (Outside of their relation to military history.), but....I was under the impression that America only became a manufacturing giant based upon such things as divison of labor, exploiting our workers/children, and the vast surplus of natural resources compared to population.

It is always much easier for the followers to move forward than the trailblazer. Example: Part of the reason so much of the world jumped ahead of us with wireless communication was because we had invested so heavily into wiring up America. The people following behind can skip those painful growing stages and jump right into an established efficient process. They gain more from our work than we do.
 TheLimey
Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 30
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 3/15/2008 7:26:58 PM
Without Machinists the entire country grinds to a halt..... NOTHING gets manufactured.

& oddly enough, Machinists is the one trade that doesn't have anywhere near the pay scales/standards that all the other trades have. In fact there isn't a machinists pay standard in the entire nation.

The US has the potential to be a third world country with 1 generation.... & almost the entire nation has the blinders on...
 father3
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 31
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 3/18/2008 8:47:14 AM

How about running an electrical wire along a wall? Probably I don't need years of training....just a sharp eye out to make sure I am not damaging the wire, or making sure the 2x4 is in the right position when I'm done,


What would you do if your 3 - phase, 35 hp, motor starts single phasing?

Could you calibrate a laser directed smoke detector to span 150 meters? If so, at what height would you mount it?

If your pump's overload trips and after resetting the overload it draws an acceptable current so you move on to your next job-----what would you check first if you were called back the next day because the overloads tripped again?

Can you use an isolation switch as a disconnnect? Why or why not?

How do you prevent your rooftop airconditionings water cooling system from freezing in the winter?

If you are called to a factory because a stamping machine shuts off every time someone tries to run something through it -- who is the best person to consult while there to make the speediest repair?

Why is a motor's disconnect always in sight of the motor itself?

What failsafes do you need to add when you're running robotic machinery from a programmable logic controller to ensure the operator doesn't get killed because of an programming error?

When you're making an extension cord with cabtire and two ends -- does it matter what ends you put the male or female plugs on? Is one configuration smarter than the other?

In self diagnostic eqipment -- what is the single most important electronic component to prevent cross feedback?

Running wires through 2 x 4's ----- oy vey!!!
 TheLimey
Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 35
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Demise of America - lack of apprentices
Posted: 3/22/2008 12:22:33 AM
Yup, no machinsts means:
No transportation
No food production
No clothing
No printing
No construction
No furniture
No electronics
No electricity
No military
No medical
No police
No fire service
No infrastructure
No gasoline/oil etc
No plastics
No civilization......as you know it...

Pretty grim huh?
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