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 Bethlett
Joined: 12/18/2007
Msg: 2
Were women better off 50 years ago?Page 1 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)
Yes and no. There was more of an inclination to stay married....to not expect sex on the first date.....to treat women with more respect....

but there was also less equality in the job market.

So its sort of a wash. *shrug*
 vro312
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 3
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/1/2008 9:56:06 PM
From where I stand, I don't see a general lack of respect for women. However, I do see that many people--both men and women--are unsure of their roles in society, and that seems to me to be a result of the rapidly changing social dynamics where male/female relationships are concerned. Maybe that's what you're seeing: people who are unsure and who feel angry about feeling unsure. In a lot of ways, men and women seem to feel less "necessary" than maybe they did in more traditional times.

It's no longer necessary to get married. People still choose to do it, but it's no longer the case that a man attempting to run a homestead to make his living would need to find a wife and to make babies in order to maintain crops and the livestock and whatnot. Likewise, women no longer need to find a husband in order to secure their own future . . . they can get careers of their own and support themselves. As a result of this declining interdependence, people seem to feel lost and angry.

This is how I see it: For the women who really want to get married and have babies, yes, life in the 50s probably would have been easier. Most people settled down in their twenties; there weren't a whole lot of choices as to what a woman would do with her life. That's what they did . . . they grew up and got married and made families of their own. Sure, some women were overlooked and never got married. But that was more of the exception. Now that wanting-to-get-married thing seems like a much harder row to hoe. In some ways, it's almost looked down upon if that's what a woman openly wants. So, yes, for them, I think it's harder.

However, I think there were always the women who didn't especially want to do the whole marriage/kids thing, but in the 50s, that would have been a difficult lifepath to choose. It would have been very frowned upon. Now, it's okay to choose that. So for those women who don't want to raise children, life is easier now.
 tralaza
Joined: 2/10/2008
Msg: 4
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/1/2008 10:09:47 PM
There are good and bad points about every era. I doubt a minority race person would say it was better in the 50s.

Part of the problem is now days we just have too much. Too many choices. Too much information. It causes stress and other problems.

As for disrespect for men and women we have done this to ourselves and the only way to change it is with individual accountability. Plus this is largely a US thing. People are more respectful in other cultures.
 Sabrosura
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 5
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/1/2008 10:10:46 PM
I don't think they were better off 50 years. However, I do believe that marriage and the family unity is not as strong and hold the same dedication as it once did. Family values and morales have lessened as well as the importance of the sacrament of marriage.

I do however feel we have more oppties and have come a long way from where we were back then. We have evolved in so many ways that it is inevitable that there be some good changes and not so good ones.

Maybe it is the women you pick up, as I don't believe there is a general lack of respect for women in today's society.
 dashriprock223
Joined: 10/6/2007
Msg: 6
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/1/2008 10:34:09 PM
After pulling an overnite project, I decided to get some breakfast at the restaurant inside the hotel I'm staying at here in NYC. I worked about fourteen hours straight, and was a little tired.

While sitting there eating with a co-worker, I overheard the conversation of the group of four women who were sitting about three tables over from me. They were talking pretty loud. One decided it was a good idea to read 'men jokes' from the email she was reading off of her Treo. You know, the ones the women LOVE to pass around in the office on company time. With each passing joke, their laughter got louder, until the joke about 'why can't women find sensitive, caring men anymore' came around......at which point, I loudly said the punchline 'because they all have BOYFRIENDS' before she could get to it. (it's not that I hadn't heard this joke OVER.....and OVER.....and OVER again...) When they all turned around, I gave a little annoying smile. I think they got the hint. They then decided it would be better to go onto ETHNIC jokes........

As I sat there, realizing that I had put in a fourteen hour day, troubleshooting some really big issues, knowing that the job I do is something that I really don't see too many women doing or carrying out.....and knowing that I've always been a hard worker, with some character and morals, who always tried to do the right thing......... I was rather ticked at the 'misandry' being displayed by a bunch of snoots who would really like to think they're the superior sex...... knowing they could never do what I do....or what I ever did in my life......and do it well...

OP....I wouldn't get too worked up about those men in your cab who supposedly treat their women rudely in front of you.......you never really know what the man is actually enduring 'behind closed doors'........perhaps he's just returning the complete lack of respect he's been given when somebody like you isn't within earshot.

Yeah...women DO have it better than they did fifty years ago.... but sometimes they're inclined to believe they did it all by themselves.......
 vro312
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 7
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:09:17 PM
^^^^^^

This is exactly what I mean. People are angry. We all act like we don't need each other anymore. There's this defensive edge now in so many of us, like we have to somehow prove that we see the opposite gender as ignorant and ridiculous and inadequate.

Women make defensive jokes about men as some sort of unsolicited proof that women don't need men, and men make defensive comments about women as reasurrance that if women don't need men, it doesn't hurt and it doesn't matter because men don't need women, either.

But it does hurt and it does matter, and of course we still need each other, just not in the same way as before.
 Mr Bain
Joined: 12/6/2004
Msg: 8
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 12:35:46 AM
Well, from the standpoint of a guy whose generation grew up with MTV and plenty of other garbage, I would find it hard to argue that women are not exploited and denigrated more than they were back in the 1950's. I worry that many women my age by the time they are middle-age will be used up and nothing will be left for me.

Unlike many people my age, I detest hip-hop and other genres of music with their lewd and demeaning attitude toward females. The weird part is, many women have totally caved into this kind of music being a salient part of pop culture. Their surrender validates the filth that we hear on the radio everyday.

I'm not sure if this is unique to my generation, but many young women re taken with this notion that their hyper-sexual function in society can be used to manipulate men into bending to their will.
 wwwwwhatever
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 10
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 1:27:14 AM
If you mean did women have less heart attacks and other male-typical, health problems? Yes; the answer is yes. However, if you mean did women have it better where choice was concerned, the answer is no. Then again, what causes you to ask such a one sided question relative to the era is beyond me.

Both men and women in the 1950’s had roles to fill; expected roles that were not negotiable in normal society. Roles, by the way, that still exist for men but are quite optional for the women today. Men are still quite expected to fill that very same role as ever, at any cost, and they’re viewed every bit as strange now as they were back then for not filling that role.

So, what happened? Well, here’s a little hint. In 1958, a lady named Simone de Bevoir wrote a book called, “The Other Sex.” She was the mother, if you will, of modern day liberalism. Thereafter, the divorce rate doubled between 1955 and 1965 from 25% to 50%. A significant change indeed, considering WWII should have had a more severe effect with women emerging from the home and into the factories a mere ten years earlier. What most don’t know, however, is that this individual was not only a dedicated Marxist/Communist, but the lover/associate of Jean Paul Sartre -- philosopher and vice president of the France, USSR Association. Both were rather demoralizing to our way of life, and they quite literally hated the family stature. Their child-hoods were very twisted. The book, by the way, had a significant, Freudian aspect to it.

Karl Marx, having written the Communist Manifesto in 1840, was in exile to England where he died a popper. However, he was quite a radical in Germany previously; writing for a paper who’s views were, shall was say, quite liberal. He developed Nihilism, which is a chaotic view of truth in anything, further devised as a means to destroy liberty through the guise of expanding it. Nihilism is what resulted in the death of the Russian leader and his family, giving rise to perhaps the most bloody form of government ever devised, further responsible for more deaths in its own country than those one typically hears about in WWII; furthermore, the true cause of WWII its self. Most are unaware, simply because it came to such a slow and methodical boil.

Therefore, for you to come on here and talk shit about men who clearly have more dealings with the fallout of this fiasco than your self leads me to believe that you’re here to actually bait women more so than make an informed statement that isn’t based on anything past the fact that most women today don’t date cab drivers. In the 1950’s, however, I would imagine that you would have been better informed and perhaps better employed. I think the real question, therefore, is where have all your choices gone… poof!
 a bit nomadic
Joined: 6/14/2006
Msg: 11
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 1:34:47 AM
Bravo Darr. It's always about having choices.

Having as many OPTIONS as possible is "better" for any group of people than NOT having options.


I have to admit that I have seen a lot of disrespect toward women at work...I drive a taxi...and some of the abuse and hatred and disrespect directed towards women by the men that get into my cab, makes me sick...and there have been times where I just wanted to turn around and grab the jerk by the throat!


OP, what reason do you have to believe that what you are observing is just a "modern" (post-feminist?) problem, albeit the abuse that you see might be more acted out in PUBLIC than it was in the 50s. The difference NOW is that the women you see being abused have OPTIONS other than just putting up with it, whether they make use of those options or not. That wasn't the case in the 50s--

So no, women were NOT better off in the 1950s.
 Frau Blücher
Joined: 8/27/2006
Msg: 12
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 2:30:09 AM
It’s a tough call, because women had fewer choices and many were forced to stay in abusive situations because of they could not fend for themselves. However, I do think that in many ways the family unit was better off fifty years ago. Back then, wives didn’t have to work outside of the home in order to be able to afford the house. When women began entering the workforce in droves, the economy jumped on the two-income household notion, and it is now a necessity that both parents work just to make ends meet. Too many of our children are raised by strangers in day-care centers when they’re young, and left to fend for themselves, alone as latch-key kids when they’re older. Both parents working causes stress in the household, and it leaves no time for them to adequately nurture their relationship with each other or their kids. People end up seeking solace in affairs, prescription drugs, booze, anything to help them fill up the void that has been carved into their hearts. Families break up and people turn bitter. Of course, children will emulate and be affected by what they have lived and witnessed; and this creates another generation of bitter people. As we are left standing amongst the ruins of what “modern” society has become, can we truly say that families are better off; and if so, at what price glory? I truly hope this is just a transition period; an awkward adjustment phase from which a better society will eventually emerge. Still, it could be that we were fvcked up all along, and feminism just brought the dysfunction out from behind the white picket fences and into the open.
 kornbluth
Joined: 12/25/2006
Msg: 14
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History
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 3:39:20 AM
"The difference NOW is that the women …have OPTIONS other than just putting up with it…"

Darr and Nomadic have it right. On top of that, there is a mass Amnesia in the land. About 10 years ago my mom (b. 1916) got off on the old rant that Women's Lib is the cause of modern domestic discord. Wait a minute, I said. Didn't you have friends who were trapped in hopeless marriages? What kinds of jobs were open to you after the war? Could you even imagine college? Hmm. Maybe the '50s look better from farther away than they did up close. That's nothing new. People have always believed in some Golden Age in the past, because they don't remember. And for those whe do believe things were better in the past, P.J. O'Rourke had one word to say: "Dentristry!"
 Harry Peter
Joined: 12/25/2006
Msg: 16
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 3:58:35 AM
Depends on the desires of the woman.

I'm not one to romanticize the past. Usually it was crap then too. If not more so. Hell, I wish I lived in the future.
 tick tock
Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 17
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History
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 4:09:27 AM
Ah, the infinite cabbie wisdom! Let me tell you, men are angry for a reason...and it's not because women are getting what they deserve in life. For every pu55y, like yourself, that feels like throttling men for stating their opinion, there is another individual whom understands their frustration and where it comes from. It is borne out of the hypocrisy from which women have asserted their freedom. It is one thing to want equality, but quite another to want it all. Stick to what you do well, driving hookers home from their daily blowjobs, instead of pontificating on the status quo of gender politics.

Cheers,

Tick
 MrVitamix
Joined: 8/26/2007
Msg: 18
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 4:17:32 AM
I'd say women have it better now, they have choices they didn't 50 years ago.

No more being stuck in a bad situation and all the worlds opportunity only limited by their own level of intelligence, capibility and desires.

Women have it much better now than ever before or any time in history.
 Romantic Heretic
Joined: 10/24/2007
Msg: 19
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 4:27:27 AM
Only social issues change. Ethical ones never do.
 transituser
Joined: 2/26/2008
Msg: 23
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 6:10:03 AM
do you mean women were more respected 50 years ago? or better off financially through marriage? because a married woman 50 years ago often did not have her own income and had to depend on her husband's income, whatever he doled out to her to spend on groceries etc.

not all women 50 years ago, as in today, wanted marriage and set their sights on their careers. Women are still hitting the glass ceiling professionally, so I'm not sure if they are better off there yet either.

north american society today seems to be focussed on sex and disrespect, rather than love and respect. I think it's because 50 years ago more people were made to go to church and thus had some direction in there life, for others now though seem very lost and without direction.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 24
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History
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 6:18:05 AM
Well the economy was vastly different as well, many European industrial centers were demolished during the war so the call for American made goods was higher than any other time in history. Jobs were plentiful and companies tended to keep employees for decades. Hence the vision of the stay at home Mom with the pearls and the station wagon.
Things have changed drastically, even two parent homes need two incomes/high income to live at the same same standard many people in the 1950's took for granted.
Were women better off? Ask your Mom or Granny how many of her friends were taking valium?
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 25
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History
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 6:57:37 AM
Women have been abused the way your cab passengers have been abused for years. People see the statistics saying that a large percentage of women have been abused and scoff but our cabbie friend has given us examples of what he sees regularly.

The difference is that in the 50's, people kept this kind of behaviour hidden. They were much more into image so you'd likely not see the man beat up his wife in a cab (I hope you called police!). He'd wait until he got home and then beat her.

Sadly, men like some of the posters in this very thread are chronically angry, blame 'women' for their problems, and take it out on women. It was ever thus.

I didn't realize until I grew up and started paying a lot more attention to the news how lucky I was that my dad was a nice, normal, respectful man who would never think of hitting or even insulting my mom and I. I thought nice people were normal. The longer I live, the more it seems that good, kind, honest, considerate people are the exception rather than the rule - and it was always that way. :(
 jukeboxfrank
Joined: 1/15/2007
Msg: 26
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 7:29:45 AM
Here is a post my smarter side says ,stay away from. but that has never stopped me before !! I think our past reflects our views on the matter. If you were a little girl hearing all the time what an ***hole your dad is and I would leave if I could, you see
women trapped in their marriages and things are better now. If you are hurt and glad
you have a job and did not have to stay you are happier now. But the truth is not everyone was trapped ,Not all men are ***holes, and life now is alot harder and we do it alone. I feel the goal in life is to be happy and survive. Can you really say it is any easier to do that today. And before all the people chime in with, they are all so happy with their lives....let me point out you are on a dating site tying to change that fact.

Frank
 vro312
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 28
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 9:20:49 AM
It happens about once a week in my cab that some woman...generally under 25 endeds up crying in the backseat.


I do believe this is what you are seeing. But I also think many men are similarly abused. (And yes, of course I realize that men are generally stronger physically than women and have a social history of violence.)

I live in the Los Angeles Harbor area. It is, as a guy I met described, "Where the ghetto meets the sea." I have an awesome ocean view, but my stuff gets stolen and I hear gunshots at night. And I am witness to domestic discord fairly frequently. One set of neighbors in particular fights at least weekly. In their case, if I were the judge and jury, I would say the woman is the guilty party. She yells at the guy, "You're such a fvcking a$$hole . . . look at you--you're disgusting," etcetera, and it can go on for an hour. If a man were to yell at a woman that way, you'd have all kinds of neighbors calling the cops. But because it's the woman being abusive, people leave it alone. Recently, I was driving around my neighborhood, and I saw a woman walking down the street yelling obscenities at her man. Again, if this had been the man yelling at the woman, I think people would have stopped.

I am not minimizing the domestic abuse that women have endured historically, but I do believe, with the relationship dynamics changing as they are, more men are being abused. Some of them are easy targets now because their identity and sense of self-worth is unstable. In general, people abuse people. And, like I said before, it seems to be at least partially because as we became adults, many of us found that who we always thought we were supposed to be didn't really exist anymore.

I understand why some men are angry and confused--they got the rug pulled out from under them. They're like the South after the Civil War. It doesn't mean we're ever going back to the pre-war era, but it does mean that some serious adjustment needs to take place.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 29
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History
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 9:32:10 AM
Your friend has a TV/movie view of women in the 50's, the real facts are hard and biased against many women of that era. The fact that jobs could be taken away, if given in the first place, from women shows just how hard it was for a woman to be single back then. A woman could not had some proceedures done without the consent of their husbands and in some cases their fathers, an example: fathers of adult women could actually have a child taken away and put up for adoption against their will, etc. Women who were abused or left had few choices of ways to take care of themeselves or their children.....the list is endless. Your friend, I'm guessing, has some ideal of women being treated like bonbon eating, soap opera watching, housewives who only had to clean a nice home and be nice to hubby after his return from a long hard day at work. PPPFFFTTTT!!!!!!!!! Anytime you have to keep someone 'down' for their own good, you know darn well you are in the wrong.
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 31
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 9:59:06 AM
This is absolutely not the type of people you pick up. Men treat women exactly how women allow men to treat them. Women don't demand respect these days. Women don't insist on much of anything anymore and I speak from experience at nearly forty nine years old and watching them in the last ten years. I remember when men used to treat women well but they don't have to anymore because women don't expect to be treated well.

A lot of women want to pay for the date, they don't want a gentleman to pick up the check so that's what they're getting now. Now all the women are expected to go dutch or actually pick up the entire tab! More and more women are willing to settle and accept a casual sex, nothing more than glorified "friends with benefits" atrocity they actually call a "relationship." These relationships often don't last out the year and then they are into another one. Women bring children into these kinds of joinings and their children and they have no security because there is no child support after the wonderful prince they've chosen to father their children has left the building.

Women work their fingers to the bone just like men now and they raise their children alone. They give their bodies away and catch STD after STD in these commitment-less unions until they are worn out, both emotionally and physically. "Rode hard, put up wet" come to mind?

Oh yeah. Women are really better off now. Right. What a joke.

Until women have enough of this absolute stupidity and wake up, they'll keep getting the shaft, all in the name of their "independence." Well, good luck with that, ladies.
 vro312
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 32
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:07:17 AM

A lot of women want to pay for the date, they don't want a gentleman to pick up the check so that's what they're getting now.


Although I've found that most men insist on paying on the first date, I personally like to go dutch because I don't want to feel as though I owe anyone anything. However . . . and this is a BIG however . . . I never get mistreated by men. Men are and have been very polite and respectful with me, and when I hear that men are disrespectful with some women and try to get sex on the first date, I am surprised.

So yes, maybe we do show others how to treat us, but I'm definitely not sending the message that I want to be treated poorly when I offer to pay my own way.
 SueCat51
Joined: 8/11/2007
Msg: 33
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History
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:29:03 AM
It's a mixed bag, and it depends on who you ask. I think 50 years ago, the family unit was more stable. Everyone sat down to eat for dinner (together); parents were parents (not their child's best friends); you minded your manners & respected others or there was hell to pay. I think the dollar went further 50 years ago then it does today. I also think there is a "myth" about the 1950's (Leave it to Beaver; Father Knows Best). Families strugged then just like they do today.

The wealthy women are better off, be it 50 years ago or today. The middle class women do have more choices than our parents did (they don't have to stay in abusive relationships). The great thing about today, is MORE women than ever are going to college. In fact, they are outranking the men in college attendance. The thing that men and women struggle with today, is choices. There are far greater choices, hence more consequences. Roles between men and women today are more blurred than 50 years ago, so there's a lot of insecurity. As a Boomer, I didn't have a role model when it came to having a "career" vs. a "job".

The problem I see with today, is there's a whole lotta pissed off people (men & women). It comes down to expectations. Geez, life didn't turn out like I expected. There's a whole lot of disrespect and uncivility. It all becomes about "me, me, me".
 Frau Blücher
Joined: 8/27/2006
Msg: 36
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:42:57 AM

FRAU BLUCHER...........feminism did not cause the destruction of the traditional roles of men and women. Matrimonial laws were created by religion which was dominated by men of power.


Where in my post did I mention “with this ring I thee wed” or the papal ruling papas? I’m all for equality, equal pay, and the like. However, it does appear that when two income households became a requisite, and neither parent took responsibility for the home, something happened to the family unit---it disintegrated. I could care less whether it’s the man or the woman who fulfills the role of caretaker for their children, but one of them should, IMO. I didn’t say women weren’t better off by being afforded opportunities, I said the family unit was better off when one parent was home with the kids. Somewhere along the line families (perhaps in their quest to keep up with the Joneses?) lost sight of what was truly important. I ended my post by stating that perhaps feminism (opportunity for women---them going out into the workforce and no longer staying at home) could have just revealed what was there all along (people were dysfunctional; unhappy; bitter; etc.). I did not say it CAUSED it.

And you needn’t shout my name. You know what happens when people do that----whinny!!
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