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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Is there a god?      Home login  
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 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 2
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Is there a god?Page 1 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)

What is the best evidence for and against?

Best evidence for: none
Best evidence against: none

Personally, when I'm confronted by an absence of evidence I prefer to suspend judgement.
 4UMaybe
Joined: 8/3/2007
Msg: 4
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:33:26 AM
Faith as small as a mustard seed....
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 6
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 12:02:26 PM
There might be thousands.....or more

or none at all

"god" is a pretty loose term actually. There is no empirical "proof" of divine beings, yet the rumour persists
Many who do believe in divinity probably accept our subjective experience and thought matrix as "proof"...scientific, it is not....it's purely subjective. It therefore does require a certain amount of "suspended" judgement.. or faith, if you will.

No one can answer this for another.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 7
Is there a mod?
Posted: 3/7/2008 12:23:52 PM
A more important question is, "Is there a mod?"

Is there a mod that will come and delete redundant and essentially flamebait threads that are going to end up locked due to the essential polarizing nature of the question and the potential for hijacking, prosletyzing, exclusivity of truth claims, and inability of many parties to conduct an argument? It's happened before...

Our moderator, who art in the Server,
Varied be thy names,
Thy Job Is Thankless, ThyWill Be Done,
On Threads as it is in Topics.
Give us this day our daily ruling,
And Lead us not into divisiveness,
But deliver us from Trolls
For thine is the last word,
The Power and the ability to delete, ban, and Suspend
Without mercy for a fortnight and forever
Amen.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 9
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 1:03:51 PM
There is no evidence that 'love' exists. Yet people believe it does.

As a matter of fact, there is no evidence that any abstract concept exists - it wouldn't be 'abstract' otherwise. It makes me laugh when people keep insisting they only believe in things which can be proven through 'evidence' because so few things actually can be.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 10
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 2:55:57 PM


Look around. All that exists had to come through some agency. Consider all the natural laws that exist to maintain this existance. Random chance would not bring that about. An intelligence far beyond our own had to be involved.


Perhaps the most thoroughly tested natural law is the conservation of energy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. look around. The evidence of our senses and reason says that the universe always existed. The evidence tells us that no god is needed. God is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and which creates more problems than it solves. Who created god? If you can conceive an uncreated god that is more complex than the universe then why can't you conceive of an uncreated universe
 Tukabirdy
Joined: 4/1/2007
Msg: 12
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 8:07:52 PM
No Virginia, there is not a god.
 Ehtypical
Joined: 3/2/2008
Msg: 13
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:07:10 PM
Scientists don't contend that anything we observe today was "created" by the Big Bang. The Big Bang is a starting point for the formation of the universe in it's currently observable state. There may have been something before, but we don't purport to know what that was.

Every single living thing on this Earth came from the Replicator, a name given for the first cell that was able to replicate and thrive in the Primordial soup. It's hard for people to conceptualize just how old our planet is, and how everything could be related, but some open-minded research will explain many of creation's mysteries.

If we were "created" by a god in our current form, how do you rationalize the indisputable evidence that the Earth has been through many life cycles of dominant organisms? Do you truly believe that fossils were placed by God to "test your faith?"
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 14
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 10:16:26 PM
As I said...Is there a mod?



The evidence I see is that everything decays and goes from a greater to a lesser complexity. I am decaying, my car is decaying, in fact the whole of creation is decaying. This tells me that there will be an end and that therefore it only logically follows that there was a beginning.


EVEN if we accept the proposition that the universe has a first cause, we obviously do not have to accept in any wise that the first cause is God. It could be the bowel obstruction being released of the top elephant of the stack on top of the turtles being released dramatically...in other words, the Big Bang. This is a VERY common logical fallacy you are trying to weasel people into accepting. No sale.

Philosophy 101, the Cosmological Argument...St. Thomas Aquinas...dumb then, dumb now. A form of equivocation (a ten dollar word for lying bullsh*t) called fallacy of composition.



If no god is needed to create something as complex as the universe then why does it require creative intelligence to build a house, a car, a computer etc, etc. These things are much less complex and yet they required human creativity to bring them into existence. Logic and evidence tells me that there had to be a creative force to bring the universe into existence also.


A combination of the argument from incredulity and argument from ignorance..."If I don't understand it or believe it, it can't be happening???"



His answer is that as the "I AM" He ALWAYS WAS, IS and ALWAYS will BE.


No, that's one of his alleged biographer's words to that effect. We have yet to collectively hear from the entity Him/Her/Itself in a globally verifiable way. And as such, it's begging the question.



Because the evidence tells us an uncreated universe is not possible and creates more problems then it solves.


Well that alas falls into the category of "Sez you..."




Yes, there is a God. There is no way that the universe and each of its complex living things would be here otherwise. The Big Bang theory is silly when you try to imagine the number of living plants, animals, insects and people that were created. Each living thing taking care of itself, knowing what to eat, what it needs.
...
yadayada


See above...argument from incredulity and argument from ignorance and who knows what other logical fallacies.

Seriously...they need to teach basic reasoning at the high school level...it would clear up (I hope) a lot of these questions and perhaps make this society a much nicer place to live.

Until the creator writes his will upon the surface of the moon in 50 mile high platinum letters that we can all read by means of a simple telescope, I am afraid it's all up for grabs and science is going to provide the best answers available...and thanks to them for their fine work.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 18
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 7:49:06 PM


The evidence I see is that everything decays and goes from a greater to a lesser complexity. I am decaying, my car is decaying, in fact the whole of creation is decaying. This tells me that there will be an end and that therefore it only logically follows that there was a beginning.


Before there was a car there were car parts. Before there were car parts there were natural resources. These natural resources were less complex then the car so complexity can surely increase in the universe. Increasing complexity does not require intelligence. A snowflake is much more complicated than the water it came from and all you need is a low enough temperature.



If no god is needed to create something as complex as the universe then why does it require creative intelligence to build a house, a car, a computer etc, etc. These things are much less complex and yet they required human creativity to bring them into existence. Logic and evidence tells me that there had to be a creative force to bring the universe into existence also.


These things all require intelligence to bring them into existence because they lack one thing that living systems have: Reproduction with modification. But putting that aside, if the universe always existed it would have no need for a creator.



His answer is that as the "I AM" He ALWAYS WAS, IS and ALWAYS will BE.


If the universe could talk it would say the same thing.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 19
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 7:51:49 PM


No doctor or scientist can ever recreate the living beings that God created.


Which leads us back to my unanswered question. Who created this complex god? Surely something as complex as god must have had a creator.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 20
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 8:02:51 PM
casheyesblonde

to quote rockondon again,

woot woot! I must say it feels warm and fuzzy to see my words immortalized in your posts, even though I don't remember writing them. Must have written it months ago. I like seeing them used against my fellow atheists too if it defeats illogical arguments. Thanks for keeping us on our toes!

Personally, I would rather not argue about the existence of any god. If evidence was guns I'd be waging that battle completely unarmed. However, I would be willing to argue against certain claims that are associated with a god, such as the belief that the world is only about 6000 years old. If evidence and scripture is in disagreement, I accept evidence over scripture any day.

INDYDUDE

When I wanted a new car I just dropped a bomb on a junk yard and when they smoke cleared away I had a brand new Rolls Royce.

Sounds a lot like how God created man. One spectacular event and 'poof' there he is.

Sounds nothing like evolution though. If evolution was the junkyard, there would be millions of tornados (mutations) and numerous collections of parts which grow not by chance, but in accord to the fixed law of natural selection. Between each tornado we would see useful assemblies of parts preserved, not destroyed, and a pattern of increasingly complex constructions that eventually result in not necessarily a rolls royce, but perhaps a plane, a boat, a truck, or some other construction well adapted to its environment.

E.Kyro

It is comforting to finally realize that life originated from nothing, means nothing and rushes to nothing. All the toil and tribulation has no more meaning then yesterdays garbage. No hope, forget the dreams. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

Sorry to hear that your life is meaningless. If only you had a child to love and to love you back, people to care for and cared for you, dreams to pursue, goals in life, or any of the numerous other things which give life meaning. If things like that don't give your life meaning, what is belief in a book going to do?

Lol, no wonder an estimated 50% of americans are on anti-depressants. Pass the prozac please.

The irony. If I believed as you did I'd probably have the barrell in my mouth and my toe on the trigger.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 21
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 8:03:48 PM


Um...ever heard of the "Big Bang Theory"? No?


I happen to believe that the BBT has outlived it's usefulness. It was a decent attempt 50 years ago, but now it's lost its predictive ability. Every new observation is a new problem that is solved with ad hoc assumptions. When those ad hoc assumptions fail to be useful we add more ad hoc assumptions. It's far past time for cosmologists to step up to the plate and come up with a theory that actually agrees with observation.



Traditions that posit the existence of a creator god generally agree that God created all things. God is conceived of not as a thing, but as the condition of the existence of all things. (I can't believe how many people ask this question, and think that they're being clever by doing so. Take a philosophy course, seriously.)


A condition is still a thing.

But even ignoring that, this sustainer god is still unnecessary and insufficient. Positing a god explains nothing and raises unanswerable questions. The uncreated god is a good example of the special pleading fallacy. Take a logic course, seriously
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 22
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 8:08:40 PM


In the Catholic tradition this has been asserted, if not in quite this language, since Augustine. I can't think of a single religion that asserts that God is a "thing."


So does that mean that we can all agree that god is nothing?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 23
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 8:16:55 PM


any answer to this is a paradox.the answer to that question is the same as the answer to the sound of one hand clapping.


I learned how to clap with one hand from watching the Simpsons. Hit your fingers against the bottom of the palm and it will make a clapping sound.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 24
Is there a God?
Posted: 3/9/2008 8:27:17 PM


Of the psychology courses I have completed which would include Personality of the Self, general psychology,developmental psychology,and abnormal psychology,and of these,the most consistently and commonly used definition for the word,delusion;
-a false, persistent belief maintained in spite of evidence to the contrary and I believe that the difference can be found in these four words I have put in bold.


Christians love to retreat to the "My god is neither provable nor disprovable" position though it's not explained why they don't believe in infinitely many other unprovable things. But before you take that position we should check to see if the Christian god makes any testable predictions. I believe it makes many testable predictions. Let's consider the physical incarnation of god, Jesus. Almost all Christians believe that Jesus is god and that he existed on Earth as a real physical human being. They believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, and yet we know that humans don't reproduce by parthenogenesis. They believe that Jesus lived in Nazareth in the early 1st century. However, we know that in the early first century that Nazareth was an uninhabited necropolis. The Bible is inconsistent about when Jesus was born. According to Matthew it was about 4 BC. According to Luke it was about 6 AD. Since we know people are born once, this is evidence against the existence of Jesus. According to the Gospel of Luke Jesus was a descendant of Adam, yet the evidence of biology, geology, archeology, and physics tells us that the universe and first man did not come into existence a few thousand years ago.

There is a great deal of evidence against the existence of the Christian god. That makes Christians delusional.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 25
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 9:14:21 PM
casheyesblond

I have found a lot of your posts to be what I would consider to be off the hook and chain

your posts are off the hook as well. I always enjoy them, and considering that we are often on opposing sides of a discussion, that says a lot about what an erudite and charming poster you are.

countIbli

There is a great deal of evidence against the existence of the Christian god.

really, like what?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 26
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:33:38 PM




countIbli

There is a great deal of evidence against the existence of the Christian god.

really, like what?


Did you even bother to read the paragraph above that sentence?

Did you even bother to read the paragraph above that sentence?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 27
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:36:34 PM


edit/hey CountIbli,I only read the last sentence in your last post which I couldn't seem to get past that to even read the rest of your posts


Had you bothered to read what I wrote you might understand why I wrote what I wrote. But I guess as long as you disagree with my conclusion you won't bother to listen to what I have to say. I'm not sure how this is different from plugging your fingers into your ears, closing your eyes, and saying "la la la."
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 28
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:40:19 PM


countIbli's understanding of the term "evidence" is rather...idiosyncratic (to put it politely). So I wouldn't hold my breath if you're waiting for a compelling answer.


In science a theory is supported by evidence when the predictions of the theory agree with observations. On the flip side, when the predictions of the theory disagree with observations those observations are evidence against the theory. The Jesus theory makes several predictions that are contradicted by observations. This is pretty standard in science. Standard in courts of law too. I don't know what you consider evidence. Maybe the only thing you accept is philosophical sophistry?
 fishplusfish
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 30
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:48:44 PM
yes ther is a god .if you was a wittness you would know. as i know, eye opener.lol
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 31
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 11:17:17 PM
CountIbli

Did you even bother to read the paragraph above that sentence?

yes, of course. It was disproving the accuracy of the bible, not disproving the existence of God.

Posted by CountIbli
These natural resources were less complex then the car so complexity can surely increase in the universe.

Posted by E.Kyro
When they are acted upon by an Intelligent Designer. My point.

Such as when snowflakes form?

Posted by E.Kyro
whereas those without that faith require externals to give them purpose and meaning. The externals however can disappear in a moment leaving those who depended on them without hope

and yet the things that give my life purpose and meaning are mainly internal - love, caring, friendship, goals, etc.

And although you are right in that they can disappear in a moment, that does not mean that we should not appreciate them. In fact, I would say the opposite is true - the transitory nature of life makes these things even more precious.
To quote a great song by Three Days Grace - Pain, I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 32
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 11:22:52 PM

He did better then that, He wrote His will into the constellations. No telescope required.


Apparently not as there seems to be more than a bit of confusion as to said creator's existence, or will and more than sufficient explanation not requiring a creator or even a prime mover to explain the existence of stars...

And rather than trying to be cute, or clever (and coming out as obtuse), it's readily apparent that no single entity has gone out of their way to either be direct about making either their presence or will known.

Assumptions based on personal belief and interpretation of otherwise natural phenomenon are, frankly, just that.

It tells us nothing specific, and more to the point, says nothing specific about any one being, or beings that may or may not have had anything to do with the process...and certainly does nothing to buoy up support for any one specifically...so any claims by any one over any other for supremacy are of course fit for the rubbish bin.

Until the platinum letters arrive, or something equivalent, everything is still up for grabs by all parties and no one is left with any better claim or evidence than anyone else regarding belief systems...

However, regarding those things of which factual evidence and replicability may be obtained, the scientific method still has the best answer until new data arrives...at which point it will continue to revise it's answer -- nice how it works like that, unlike static, dogmatic belief systems. Sucks to be one of them.

As a final point, however, science also says nothing about the existence or non-existence of a god(s) as frankly, such questions are outside its purview...and frankly the interest of most people pursuing science as a field of knowledge. Those who are comfortable saying "I don't know" can find solace there...and also take heart in saying, "Not only do I not know, but I am also pretty sure you don't know...and probably don't understand the meaning of the verb 'to know' but believe you do" and therein lies the worst of the confusion.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 33
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:25:05 PM
First of all get the religious nonsense out of the way. G-d is not something you wind up on Sundays.



Before we can understand Is there a G-d what we don't know is--- What is a G-d.---

What are you!! A unit of observation. If you cannot observe a G-d, then you cannot understand what a G-d is. And if you cannot understand what a G-d is how can you observe G-d. So what are you looking for.

For those who do not understand Seeing is not believing, believing is seeing. You will never know that until you learn to believe.

The point is that, its up to you to find out. And there are tons of signs on the way. A few billboards.

You don't go to heaven, you create heaven.
You don't see G-d,you become one with G-d.
G-d is inside you. Part of you.
Omnipresent-Omnipotent because G-d is part of you. Look in the mirror, you will see a G-d,-- Life.

Time is change/Timeless is constancy.

If we could imagine timeless-ness---where would the beginning be and the end. The Alpha and Omega.

Atheist make me laugh, they want to see a man with a bubbled head behind a cloud. They need material confirmation, a substance. They lack inner insight. They see everything as separate. They argue religion and beliefs because it suites a material mind to have a sense of physical practicality in there logic. They believe that we are just bodies but are unaware of the essence that is inside. The idea that you can observe areas of life that are deeper than the superficial mind. Remember you are a unit of observation, you are a soul, made in the image of a G-d, which gives you the qualities of a G-d, Separating yet pulling together a reflection of a self created reality.

You got to find a G-d before you can see a G-d. Look inside, hes not behind a cloud, you missed the whole thing completely. Pr 8 We are the creators in this world.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 34
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/10/2008 5:14:20 PM


yes, of course. It was disproving the accuracy of the bible, not disproving the existence of God.


It was disproving the existence of the Christian god, not some other undefined god.
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