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 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 1
The infamous "NICE GUY" rantPage 1 of 38    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38)
This is a VERY old article, but I think it's about time to trot it out. I didn't write it, but I think she makes some good points.

Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS

You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless **** for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually payed some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that get's attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.
 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 2
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 4:42:10 AM

I give props to any person with enough time to read the novel you just typed.



LMAO

Oh no no no...I did NOT type this. I just copied and pasted it from another site. LOL
 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 3
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 5:24:12 AM

OUCH!!!

definitely saw a few parts of me in there.... and things I used to do! Before I wised up and moved on!!


My main complaint about that article was that it was aimed at men only....as if only men did this sort of thing. I know a gracious plenty clingy, insecure female doormats too. I went through a period of time when I did the "nice" thing because somehow I thought that if I just tried a little harder I could make the relationship work.

I've always held to the belief that you can't measure love in how much you're willing to suffer for it. I think buttsmooching needs to be added to that sentiment: the amount of buttsmooching you do, doesn't mean that your love is somehow more pure or more "real."
 TRAVCOMAN
Joined: 5/12/2005
Msg: 4
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 5:31:46 AM
Hello everyone
My name is micheal,That was a real mouth full "WHEW" I would think that was designed to give ANY male reading it a complex disorder of some sort or another. LOL
 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 5
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 5:39:28 AM

Sometimes i like to pick, I’ll pick till your horns come out
then go hide till its safe again lol.



I would think that was designed to give ANY male reading it a complex disorder of some sort or another. LOL


After reading your profile, I have a hard time believing it gave you any sort of a complex. *wink* LOL BTW I loved the picture of the kitten...do you still have this cat? I have a couple of bottle raised sisters and they don't seem to realize they are cats. LOL
 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 6
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 5:57:48 AM

But guess what..... there are countries where they do think more like us "nice" guys, in fact there are whole cultures in Asia, that believe in good deeds.


If you think that's what that article was saying, then I think you missed the point. There isn't anything wrong with doing good deeds. There isn't anything wrong with treating another person with kindness and respect and approaching them as an equal. There isn't anything wrong with being romantic. There isn't anything wrong with opening the door for someone.

The point of the article was to highlight the fact that sometimes people (and I say people because as I mentioned earlier, this isn't a male thing really...both sexes do it) confuse being clingy and overly-acquiescent and completely ignoring your own needs in favor of obssessing over the wants and needs of a partner with being "nice." That isn't nice. Would you really want to become involved with a woman who expected you to put her needs over yours? I wouldn't want to date anyone who expected that of me....I know that much.
 manthere
Joined: 5/21/2005
Msg: 7
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 6:11:40 AM
Wicked Zoot...that's a good article of a sort. But it kinda goes back and forth in my mind like a tug o war. Like "Who is right or wrong here"?

Like nice guys probably compliain about women taking advantage of then there are women who see men like this, and take every advantage at exploiting them.

Does that make these women any better??

I hate to compare women to little kids...but I have to say, (and even had a FEMALE friend tell me this) that women WILL try to see how far they can get away with something. Correct me if I am wrong if this is not a female attribute.

They will see how far they can get, without you objecting to it. Some women will dump you in a heartbeat, if they can't get a "Nice guy" to buy that $1,000.00 Diamond ring for them.
 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 8
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 6:21:29 AM

I hate to compare women to little kids...but I have to say, (and even had a FEMALE friend tell me this) that women WILL try to see how far they can get away with something. Correct me if I am wrong if this is not a female attribute.

They will see how far they can get, without you objecting to it. Some women will dump you in a heartbeat, if they can't get a "Nice guy" to buy that $1,000.00 Diamond ring for them.


Ah, but then I also had a man (several actually) tell me the same thing about men and sex. They told me that even if they don't feel like they are compatible with the woman, they will see how far they can go with her in the hopes of having sex, so that at least it wasn't a wasted evening. LOL

I'm sure there are some women who go for the riches or the baby daddy, I have no doubts about that. Makes it harder on the ones who arne't like that....ya know?
 gentlespirit
Joined: 11/19/2004
Msg: 9
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 6:26:19 AM
EXCELENT!! (And may this post put an end to all the "Nice guy/girl" posts we see, too).

Thanks for bringing it out...
 mitgrad00
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 10
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 6:43:28 AM
We have had this discussion many many times.

I think there is a difference in preference for man in Sinic/Confucian culture and Western Culture. Women in western culture prefer more independent guys and women in Sinic culture prefer nicer, more inter-depedent relationships. (There is, of course, nothing wrong with personal preference.)

I think this has something to do with the foundation of the society. Western society/capitalism is founded on the idea of individual good. Everyone should pursue what is the best for oneself; afterall, what's good for the individuals in a society has to be good for the society. Naturally, western women like independent guys who put his own desires first.

The Sinic/Confucian culture believe in the common good. What's good for my group/family unit is more important than my individual desires. Hence, the preference for nice/inder-depentent guys.

I personally believe a balance between individual good and the common good. This has been a phylosophical discussion since the beginning of time. From Acient Greek scholars and confucis all explored this topic. The conclusion is the same: to strive for the golden mean.
 discover
Joined: 3/15/2004
Msg: 11
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:02:22 AM
No one (man or woman) should be a doormat for anyone else. That's the impression I got when I read the opening post (yes, I read it all).

I'm a nice guy, but the only thing I can relate to is the "hard luck" mistakes mentioned - it's a hero complex and it's not a nice guy thing. A lot of men feel the need to be a protector. A nice guy will get burned because he'll stick with her longer than a "not-so-nice-guy" would and will allow feelings to develop more.

As for being too affectionate, you have to look at the person your with and decide how much affection you should give them. A self-confident, positive women will need less assurances that you love her than a clingy, insecure women would. If you love (care for) the person you will need to find a balance where she feels loved but isn't overwhelmed by it.

Please remember that guys are different though, we don't need much to know you love us: a smile, sex (did I say that?) and not sleeping with other men is enough ;)

The opening post leads to the right idea though, women don't want (nor do they deserve) a doormat for a partner. Men don't need this either. We (in my opinion) both need someone that can hold their own, someone that we can count on and not feel like we're babysitting.

... my two cents.
 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 12
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:07:04 AM

women don't want (nor do they deserve) a doormat for a partner. Men don't need this either. We (in my opinion) both need someone that can hold their own, someone that we can count on and not feel like we're babysitting.

... my two cents.


Very well said (and quite concisely too, I might add)! And in my opinion worth a heck of a lot more than two cents.
 IowaDarling
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 13
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:13:06 AM
Oh my God, this discribes my last three ex's....I need better radar!!!
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 14
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:16:36 AM
I dated a "nice guy" who celebrated our anniversary. Not annual, since I only dated this guy a few months. He'd say do you know what today is? Me - no. It's our one week anniversary, our two week, so on. I got roses and a card for our one month anniversary. I thought that was sweet but at the same time just felt a little strange, like maybe I should have remembered. Made me feel like a heel. Well, he broke up with me because I spent our 3 month anniversary with friends, had 2 friends (a couple) that just came back from NY that I was close to, he asked to join us. I said I'd rather just visit with them, he didn't know them, he'd have sat there like a potted plant. And truthfully, because they'd been out with us, I wanted to get their opinion about should I break up with him and how can I do it gently. Next morning, I checked my email, there was a L O N G one from him breaking up with me because last night was our 3 month anniversary and I didn't want to spend it with him. He had stayed home and gotten drunk sent this at 3 am and broke up with me over email (and I was worried about hurting HIS feelings). I got ready for work and just laughed, felt a huge relief. Of course he'd written another one that day, saying he was drunk and sorry didn't mean to blah blah.....well I said no the first email counts, we're broken up. I saw him a few more times for a "friendly" drink, when he started the lets get back together bull I'd leave. Then met him to discuss some things, he ended up bawling his eyes out in this restaurant I go to all the time, everyone knows me. I said I was not ever getting back with him. When I see his friends, they're cold and treat me like shit. SO I guess I'm the official bad guy even though he got drunk and broke up with me by email. Go figure.
 WickedZoot
Joined: 4/30/2005
Msg: 15
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:31:19 AM
At least he didn't break up with you by postit. LOL

Yeah, he didn't sound too "nice" did he? Funny how that "nice" can change in an instant when things don't work out the way the person planned.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 16
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:34:41 AM
Funny but that was 4 years ago and never dated a nice guy since. Guess I tuned up my radar a bit. Also, when I told my friends about the anniversary bit, the men and even my women friends all said that was a bit obsessive and he sounded strange. They all didn't think he was the guy for me.
 HHLLKKII
Joined: 1/24/2005
Msg: 17
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:40:05 AM
WickedZoot, All I can say is
 manthere
Joined: 5/21/2005
Msg: 18
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:46:28 AM
I prefer Asian women, because they will usually say "Yes" and actually DO....when you ask them out. LOL
 lonertx63
Joined: 4/5/2005
Msg: 19
hmmmmmmmmm
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:46:51 AM
I guess being a sorry ass **stard aint so bad after all!! I'm OK as long as anybody treats me with consideration. But nobody messes with me. And any turkey who wants to fight will find me not so nice. I won't tolerate a woman who treats me like she is some bytch. I have some tolerance for stupidity, but not much for ugly behavior. Treat me as you would treat someone you care about, and we'll get along fine. I don't need another woman long term anyway, so it's a mute point with me.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 20
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:54:04 AM
lostsole I understand how you feel, but stereotypes are just that. Generalities, noone is gonna fit every criteria. I think the main theme in that is low self esteem/self respect and neediness. Putting your lady's needs before your own can be done without being a doormat. We all resist stereotypes but we all seem to use them every now and then, it's just a human thing to do.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 21
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 10:03:26 AM
palpatine He can't make her NOT go with this guy. However, if I had a boyfriend who wanted to go to a prom with someone else when I wanted him to go with me I'd let them go.....permanently.
 mike2040
Joined: 5/15/2005
Msg: 22
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 1:04:17 PM
ack! are you certain thats a NICE GUY?? sounds more like "Fatal attraction" or "Swim fan".

the whole "1 week anniversary" is totally freaky, and downright creepy. i'd run for the hills as sooon as i could. I remember being respectful, and having my own life, but that is seriously scary. This will make me to think twice about how i look at people. As for the attracting women with problems, gotta be really careful about that. ( looks around , sees an needy person, runs for the hills!!! lol ) help!! creepy person,
 sweet_kisses05
Joined: 5/28/2005
Msg: 23
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 1:50:31 PM
Love ya self first no else will if ya dont and love is not a desparate need either people are misguided when they mistake lust for love it is immature sure lust in relationship is good but not being needy turnoff and you loose ya self
 Denforlife
Joined: 1/22/2005
Msg: 24
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 4:03:42 PM
hmmm what gets me is all the women that say they want a nice guy...then you see them go date the same type of guy...one that either mentally abusses them or physically abuse them..one that treats there dog better than there mate...what is the logic there.
 Deagleninja
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 25
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 5/29/2005 4:24:01 PM
Very thought provoking thread...

Nice is such a lame adjective anyway. Any man describing himself with 'I'm a nice guy' either lacks imagination, or is a dullard. I totally agree with the article the OP cut and paste. All too often a 'nice guy' is overly possesive and/or clingy. When their attempts to shackle a woman to their side fail, they usually react angrily as if a woman is obligated to appreciate their passes and affection.,,,
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