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 jadegreen
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 5
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The Code of Love in Modern SocietyPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
I think there is definitely a re-evluation of relationship going on in this decade and the decade to come, however the family unit must not die...The family unit is important in society. Seeing two parents male and female together who love each other and place their kids first togethre is the ultimate secure environment...I had two parents growing up and I am very secure person...my ex husband did not have two parents growing up and there are a lot of things he feels insecure about...but back to relationships evolving

I don't know what the answers will be....I think some have come to the conclusions that relationships are just disfunctional no matter what...and they will opt to stay out of them to avoid being hurt...I've been hurt, but I have survived b/c I grew up in a secure environment...I will always seek a good relationship and never give up...the problem is there are soooo many out there that have come to the wrong conclusions about relationships...If you don't feel a little pain in life....you AREN'T LIVING....lol...

As a 38 year old woman...I am seeing a lot of men even at the age of "settling down" who still continue to play "the game" while their youth is slipping away and who will never have the "family experience"...alot have come from broken homes or have trust issues and still have yet to get some things "figured out" about how to try and make things work...Those who live in reality know that no one is perfect and a relationship that works takes work from both parties and give and take from both ends...you can't be a taker and make a good relationship work...

Oh well...I hope this make sense to somebody out their...
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 8
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:30:25 AM
I voted to keep the thread.. I think it's a good question.

People are always challenging the "code of love", because it's something that people have to agree upon to stay together; yet it's different for everyone.

Nobody can know exactly how another person feels about them. Nobody can know exactly how another person feels. Therefore the "code of love" is not written in stone. It's negotiable... kind of like bartering... like "I got this and wonder what I can get in return for it."

People are constantly talking about what it is and examining it and so forth, but it's value and meaning is created by the lives we live in the relationships we're in.

I think love right now in the US is probably influenced more by romance and sexual attraction than ever before; at least in young people.

Conversely, in older generations sometimes comfort factors are required for survival itself or the ability to support one's family, and therefore romantic interests are pushed into the background a little bit, or pursued covertly (read "affairs").

I hope this thread keeps going so I can see what others say.
 nd300
Joined: 2/25/2007
Msg: 9
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 9:35:44 AM
I read that the main cause of divorce today seems to be money.Sounds like another way of saying that divorce is another part of our "single use throw away" society. Instead of working issues out,when trouble happens in a marriage,one or the other simply says the "divorce" word and presto!!!!!!!!Another point in the column I mentioned earlier.
I made the mistake of taking my ex-wife for granted.After some of the hardships we endured,I thought that nothing could break apart our marriage,that it was set in stone.Surprise!!!!!!!!! I never quit on her,nor did I cheat.I know in my heart that she did once,if not possibly more,but I don't have any real proof,so I let it go.I suggested counseling and she actually went once,but the counselor agreed with her point of view instead of asking us about issues we had and suggesting solutions.Needless to say,I never went back to that counselor again.
If I do ever get married again,I'll be sure to put the effort into it again like I did the first time,but not make the mistake of taking her for granted.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 19
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 11:48:19 AM
I think it's a good thing to know... especially for a younger person who might be considering getting involved in some way with another individual.

It's really a crap shoot.

It's about loyalty, more than anything else.

No matter how much you love the person right now, you're both going to change down the line... and it's not going to be like it is. You're either going to be able to adapt or you're not, depending upon how much you value the other person, the relationship itself, the outside pressures involved.

It's tough to have a lifetime relationship with another person. Don't believe anyone who tells you different.

Even a person who's been with the same person that long has moments when they'll consider walking out. Generally, we're not the type of creatures who will die if our mate leaves us. That's what creatures do who are naturally monogamous. In order for us to stay together, it takes a very strong will which is resolved to do so.

For most, it's worth it, but even for some who manage to do it, it's really not. It depends on what they value in their own lives.

It's not a bad thing to leave someone. Sometimes it's the only way to keep from getting killed or jumping out a window.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 20
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 12:19:24 PM
While I applaud those who've kept a truly long term relationship,( and I mean 45 yrs not 45 days) I sometimes wonder if we need to stop looking at divorce as a "failure". Sometimes people just do grow away from one another. It isn't always the divorced folks I feel bad for, it's the ones that stay in a MISERABLE marriage because of ancient religious convictions, fear of social dispapproval or fear of reduced financial circumstances. Now I'm talking about marriage/committment that has truly gone shot, not just a "rough patch".
And the pressures on marriage have become so different. It's no longer a matter of a woman staying in a marriage because being a wife and mother is how she gets food on her plate and a warm place to sleep at night. and I'm not talking about alimony/child support, rather about how we now encourage women to acquire higher education and marketable skills so they CAN support themselves and their children if a marriage goes bad. And sadly, it is now so dirt easy to cheat and most of the time "society" reacts with a "yeah well"... little or no censure of the cheater. Or the censure is for getting CAUGHT,rather than for the cheating itself.
No, I think as family and procreation evolves, we must also allow marriage to evolve. I don't think someone who stays in a marriage that sucks for 30 yrs because they didn't know what the hell else to do, should be seen as "better" than people who recognize that their marriage is no longer workable and get out. But that doesn't mean call the lawyer the minute that the "new" wears off, or the couple butt heads over something.
Yes I think that the 'codes" have to be updated. But the bottom line is still to treat others as you want them to treat you.
Cindy O
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 25
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 12:40:39 PM
Daniel Boone once came back from one of his year long explorations of the frontier.
He discovered his wife was 6 months pregnant. When he asked her who the father was she told him it was his brother who lived on the farm down the road .
He said, " Well, at least you kept it in the family ".
Our notions of what marriage should be are based upon conditions which existed hundreds of years ago. Back then, people didn't have all the variety of different people to choose from we do today. If you lived on a farm the next closest person with marriage or relationship potential might be 30 miles away.
People learned to work out their little issues or else they might be forced to go it alone for a long time. There simply wasn't anyone else around to start over with. People simply weren't as replaceable as they are today.
I have no doubt that our relationship coping strategies are not nearly as developed as our ancestors were.
With all the different temptations people have today it's surprising that anyone stays together very long at all.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 27
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 1:33:23 PM


Just go back to say the 1940's compare to current event's you'll find most relationship's today are not built on love but on the have's have not's it's no longer who you are as opposed to what you are or what you can accomplish .

"Just" go back to the 1940s?
Do you mean back to the times when women were told to go home so the soldiers coming back from WWII could have jobs?
... the times when there was total sexual inequality and there weren't many apartments and women couldn't afford to move out?
Would anyone trade the freedom we have to leave a situation they don't like now for the days when there was no way to leave an abusive spouse?
Is that "love"(?)... having to stay with someone even if you hate them?

I think not.
 SueCat51
Joined: 8/11/2007
Msg: 30
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 3:12:47 PM
Great thread. I think our modern society is a mixed bag. While men and women have greater choices today, it also means greater consequences, and unfortunately, very few of us relish in being accountable for our own actions. Instead, we place the blame on others. I think technology and workplace has been a huge negative in our family lives. Instead of families sitting down every night to have dinner, they are either at work, or doing their "thing". Workplace has demanded more hours, hence couples are too exhausted to nurture their marriage. Children also complicate matters, parents of today tend to hold their kids on such a high pedestal, that the kids always come first, and the marriages take a back seat. Also, we talk about divorce before we even get married. Last but not least, we tend to focus on the negative instead of the positive in each other. If you focus on negative, you're gonna get negative.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 33
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 4:49:12 PM
I'm not society. The extent to which I allow myself and my life to be influenced by what anyone else does is up to me.

Anyone that I would be involved with would know what my needs and desires are. That's all I can do, communicate with them and then either stay or go.

I'm not responsible or accountable for anyone else's relationships or lives, I only have influence over what happens in my own. Other people's expectations or codes of conduct have no place in what I do in my own life.
 jadegreen
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 38
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:51:43 PM
I agree with you Lovelytonue (is that how you spell)...we are living in society where we can communicate by email ... cell phones etc...and we are losing those interpersonal skills...Some people are actually losing the know how of how to maintain daily communcation with somone or how to interact face to face in a relationship... I would dare to say that some are becoming "lazy" in their communcation which impacts relationships etc...is one of the many factors affecting relationships today...

Right now I can think of 3 guys just offhand that I've dated in most recent few years that literally do not know how to have daily communcation and have been lazy about it too...To me it is odd...b/c I've always known guys that could communcate on a daily basis...but I guess they were literally "committment phobics"
 jadegreen
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 40
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 9:05:52 PM
Also, I am a Christian and when I am confused about something I will refer to the bible for answers...God created Man and Woman in the Garden in the beginning and the Woman was meant to be a companion to Man...Man and Woman were meant to be companions from the beginning...That is all the code I need...

I am not one to change my standards to suit society, but rather will stick to my own also as I've read many of you state also in prior opinions ...I prefer the old fashioned idea of a Man and Woman together and not some Woman in a village....and I will pursue a relationship with someone with similiar expectations...and not trying to Reinvent the Wheel when it comes to relationships...( i suppose that is not a good analogy, but I think a man and woman getting along together is really a simple concept)
 TopChuck
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 41
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 9:47:30 PM
We seem to be trying to change men and women to fit ideals. Those changes run counter to our long social and biological evolution.

Very few people understand how successful relationships function. People don't understand their roles, especially since the roles depend on gender.

We fulfill roles automatically when we enter relationships, but don't recognize what those roles are. Then, we forget those roles and the loving stops. If we knew how relationships functioned, we could always go back to what got us into loving in the first place.

Idealists push us to try to behave in ways that are counter to our gender character. Men are supposed to act like women and women are supposed to act like men.

Equality is possible in relationships, but it's achieved by balancing power, not expecting men and women to be the same animals. Men truly are from Mars. Women truly are from Venus.

Changing that is counterproductive.

The genders are both great at doing what they were designed by nature and nurture to do. Loving can occur and be the most wonderful experience humans can have in this life. But it occurs in ways defined by our total past evolution, not by some modern day attempt to push people into roles that are counter to their very nature.

Chuck
 Brizo
Joined: 2/19/2006
Msg: 42
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/21/2008 10:31:55 PM
If you look at the way in which some of our generation (and many more in the decades that followed) were raised, it should not be surprising that we tend to value individual achievement over family success or societal harmony. Both mother and father work away from the home and the children are placed in daycare or preschool. The children develop a firm individual identity lest they become victimized or ignored. Marriage involves a great deal of compromise, and most people have very little experience in compromise or negotiation, being the strong individualists they are.

Gender roles are in flux right now, and there are certainly some negatives. However, I have seen some positive trends as well. How many men did you see pushing strollers or taking their children to the park say, 5o years ago? How many grocery shopped, or gave their children baths? Many men were distant figures in their childrens lives, visiting dignitaries. While the mothers role has somewhat shrunk (usually through working outside the home) the father's role has increased. I have faith that humanity will work it out...
 Argentum Crinis Philogus
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 43
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/22/2008 5:48:57 AM
Are our expectations of Relationships& Marriages updated to the day and age of our Society?

Yes.


Are we finding it easier in keeping a relationship working or ending it?


No easier and no less easy.


Are there more and more people who are disrespecting the traditional values in relationships?


Perhaps "disrespecting" isn't the correct term as much as more and more people may not share what is perceived as "traditional values in relationships". What are traditional values? When one considers traditional values, aren't those values linked to their individual reality based on their ethnic, spiritual, familial, and geographic cultures? Since individuals are uniquely different and have different realities, I'm not exactly what "traditional values" transcend all of these factors. This invites the idea that "traditional values" are only valid within the context one's personal reality.


Or do we need to re-evaluate our needs and realistic expectations in relationships, as the society had changed and Is continuously changing.


You have asked two questions. Yes, it would be wise for individuals to re-evaluate their needs and identify what is and is not a realistic expectation in a relationship. One particular consideration is the myth that one individual will and should meet all of the needs and desires of another. Another consideration is that human beings are not locked in any specific state of development and each individual will change in some ways and not in others as they continue in their development as human beings. The person that you acquire as a partner today will not be the same individual five years later and neither will you. Ideally, mutual respect and mutual support allow parters to grow individual and together while continuing to rework and redefine the relationship. In order to rework and redefine, there must be honesty and clear communication, shared relationship goals, and a sense of "we" in contrast to you and I, and an elimination of a "Me" attitude. That doesn't mean one must lose themselves in a relationship and at the same time they cannot be so independent that there is no interdependence between the partners.

The second part (actually the first) relates to needs. Needs are ever changing and most things that individuals label as "needs" are "perceived needs" or "felt needs" in contrast to a "need". Learning how to differentiate between "needs" and "perceived or felt needs" is an important skill that individuals should acquire. The difference between them is how one addresses their "Me" attitude and acquires a "We" attitude in the relationship. Needs are those things that are the "non-negotiables" that each individual holds for themselves and which they bring to the relationship. Sadly, in many relationships, those "non-negotiables" are not addressed as part of the terms of the partnership and not necessarily from intentional omission as much as from a lack of self-knowledge of those self-identified "non-negotiables," which include those "values" one believes are "traditional to them" and yet may not be shared by one's potential partner. These (identified non-negotiables) are often the result of individuals not being differentiated when they enter a relationship and too often if differentiation occurs within the context of the relationship--the relationship itself is incapable of adjusting to that change--this results in an unbalancing of the relationship and may lead to a disconnect between the partners. One may hear phrases such as "he/she is leaving me behind," "we seem to have so little in common these days."

These are but a few and very important reasons why pre-marital counseling is an important consideration. It helps cut through the euphoric and mythical fog of the "bliss" stage in relationships and helps expose these warts that both partners have filtered out as they look longingly on their potential partner's "best self" and/or "masked-presentation of self" while they in-turn present their "best self" and/or their own "masked-presentation" of who they really are and are really about. Many see it as an unnecessary expense.

Experience has informed me that pre-marital counseling is due diligence on the part of the individuals involved and has the potential to save all involved much emotional, financial, and sometimes physical pain. I can almost assure a couple if they don't see me before they get married, they will likely see me or someone else within five years. In less time if it is a second marriage, and within a year, if it is a marriage resulting from an affair.
Yet, folks don't feel that 6 to 10 sessions is worth the cost. I don't know about others, but when I invest in land to construct a building, I want to make sure that land isn't hiding a sink hole, wasn't a former landfill or cemetery, and isn't above an underground aquifer. If I construct that building without investigating the integrity of that land and it is swallowed up by a sink whole--how can I blame the builder, or the former land owner? I got what I deserved because I didn't care enough about myself or my future to spend a little in the beginning to try and prevent losing it all in the end.


Your thoughts will be much Appreciated on this Subject.


You're welcome and I hope they are useful in some way.

Best.
ACP
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 51
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 3/24/2008 6:35:27 AM
Are our expectations of Relationships& Marriages updated to the day and age of our Society?

Under the great sea change in society over the last 50+ years, our expectations and society’s moral judgments about relationships have greatly changed, and continue to do so. We have gone from no living together (with the exception of a few whackos who “lived in sin”) and divorce so taboo that divorcees were ostrasized… through divorce being accepted/treated almost as a rite of passage… to today, where an ever increasing number of people choose to live together, and marriage is on the decline.

Are we finding it easier in keeping a relationship working or ending it?

With the freedoms and choice we have, it takes skill to build a relationship, arguably for the first time in man’s history… prior to this, we had “no choice” but to stay in a relationship and suck it up... survival depended on it.

The increase in divorce rate supports we have become a more disposable society. It is no longer taboo to divorce, there are social and financial support structures in place… so it is no surprise people opt out.

Are there more and more people who are disrespecting the traditional values in relationships?

Disrespecting? If society has changed, it is because people have changed… so where does the judgment of disrespect fit in?

Or do we need to re-evaluate our needs and realistic expectations in relationships, as the society had changed and Is continuously changing.

I’d say our skill set has lagged behind the changes. Life is simple, it is people who make it complicated. We get in the way of our own happiness; I think it is largely our expectations that are at fault. Among other things, we expect the other to bring us happiness. Arguably, we have never expected that out of a relationship before. It's wrong-headed. If we could learn to shove ourselves out of our own way long enough to just relate with people, I think most of our problems would disappear.

Every argument we have with people is largely not about the real issue, it is about our fears that we have projected outward onto the other and situations. Rather than dealing with our fears ourselves, we expect the other to solve them for us... and even then, we usually don't actually tell them what the issue/fear is really. Most people choose to live circumstantial lives, I'm surprised as many relationships last as long as they do. LOL, and I'm an optimist.
 JamesP166
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 52
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 4/7/2008 9:30:30 PM
The trouble is yes - - - and yes and yes and yes.

the problem is with women's lib - - - it has set a whole series of changes into action
Because of this expectations have changed - - - so relationships are not as they were - -
and this takes time - - -

Do not think that I am against women's lib, I am for it - - - where I grew up in the bible belt (midwest) - - heavy church area - - women had their roles - so did men, men the provider, and the knight in shining armor, women are to take care of the house and have and raise the babies - - - -

This was fine in the days of old. women's work was more highly respected, it was a lot more work. No washing machines or dryers, no cars, No refrigerators, etc. No temp controlled ovens. So for the man to come home to fresh bread, jam that she had to make - - made his day, - after a day working hard on the farm or factory, They did not have the automated equipment as they do now. So it was a fair split of the duties - - - but with improvements in technology, women's work became easier, no longer a skill. bread is simply bought, store bought Jam is as good as home made - - want a cake - - a couple of $$ on the way home - - No longer hand washing the clothes, in the washer - - and head off. But Man's work has changed also - - more office work, more equipment to do the heavy work - - so women can help out here - - - why not - - why make them sit at home after the house cleaning is done - - -

This has caused a man's revolution, we are now free from the strike role of knight in shining armor. we are not allowed to cry, and have feelings, and be human, also - - -

Now the problem is that these changes are adapted by each of us in different ways - - some still want part of the old, some do not - - so life is in a state of flux. - change - -

Each is now more different than before when we had fixed roles and expectations. Years ago - we married to survive, He wanted a woman to have his kids and take care of his house, have food ready, She wanted a provider, it was a team - - both involved in making it work, she would show how good of a cook she is, He would show that he had a good job.

But as that is covered - - I have been single for too many years. I can cook, I get frozen chickens or fresh beef, fresh vegetables, and other simply - no longer have raise chickens to have eggs or meat, or have a cow for fresh milk. So life has changed. So I do not need a woman simply to have a warm meal tonight. (Would be nice to cook for someone thou and yes, I can cook) She no longer needs a man to live - - jobs are open that pay good - almost as good as man, or even better in some cases - - - she does not need a provider.

So what has this done, changed the rules, Changed what we want in each other - - changed our needs in life - - so what we are looking for has changed - - - we can evolve to the next level of relationship - - - finding one that we can be more intimate with, more sharing and caring. When one part of what we need has been covered - - we then worry about other parts, We have our home, we have our transportation, we have food, in the house, so what we now look for has changed.

Problem, not all have changed or adapted at the same rate. Some will never get it - - -

is it easier to keep a relationship or move on - - - - the need for each other has changed. In the days of old, we had family pressure, we had money pressure, a woman could not make much money - she has kids - - no court ordered child support - - it was scary for her - - she really needed to try to make it work - - - now she does not need to - - the man to suddenly have no cook or house cleaner - - did not want to loose her - - - so a need was present that was strong to keep together to work things out - - - - that is not true any more - -
and add the complexities of changing life concepts in the last 20 or so years. - - and each changing at different rates - - - makes it hard as expectations and desires change - - - -

Life is changing - - so aspects have to change - - - the values in a relationship are changing as we are not advancing what we want to the next level - - to the next level of relationship - - combine that with people no longer around their family - - kids are grown and gone to other parts of the world - - - yea - - values are changing and not always for the better. Kind of bad - - -

We need to adapt and grow as society is changing - - we can now reach for different goals, but it has to be done with both knowing and working towards it - - it takes communication and respect between the man and wife - - -

We have to learn how things are changing - - a person might think they are happy but in talking to others realize that more can be had in life and in the relationship. Look at cosmo, and it comments - - - we can be more - - we can feel more - -

I have meet men that at the age of 45 were still trying to pickup women as he did at the age of 20, and could not figure out why the 20 year old women are not interesting in a man as old as their father. They simply could not understand - - - that is the way that many are - - not changing or adapting - - - this tears apart relationships - - one is stuck and the other is growing and changing - - -

in the days of old - - more sharing occurred, there was not TV, and other events to draw each away from the other. We did not have TV's in each room, even the kids have their own TV, Now it is her computer, his computer, each kids computers. All being separate and independent, keeps the sharing of the lives down. She has her activities, He has his, each going their own way - - - so life is not that same - - and the new way, does not cause sharing, interacting, being involved with each other - - - So it causes the couple to drift apart. too many other distractions.

We have to learn how to adapt and handle the changing ways of life - - and keep one grounded and not drawn into a relationship that is so easy and common to happen - - the two simply drift apart with time - - and find out that they do not know each other any more - -
 JamesP166
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 53
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 4/7/2008 10:26:56 PM
-As in the sense that traditional values were more likely going through the turbulence of the marriages and was not to give up easily. Even if it means to sacrifice personal preferences and identities of self. Giving full commitments and remain unions of both in the relationship as one particle of a whole.

Of course some sacrifice is needed on both parts, but if the relationship is right - - the gains are more than worth it - - - I have been single for a long time - I can not simply eat when I get hungry - - we are not a couple, I can not simply take off without letting her know, If I want Chicken and she wants Pork, we have to come to agreement - - if she want this movie on TV - - and I do not really care for it - - so lots of little things are effected and the first year is the growing and adapting year. But it should not be the giving of one so fully that one gets lost in the relationship and looses oneself.


{do we need to re-evaluate our needs and realistic expectations in relationships, as the society had changed and Is continuously changing}

As well as the traditional values can be limited in supporting modern relationships. The ambiguity of some modern relationships can also be confusing to our limited understandings. Yet to judge right from wrong is not possible, due to the versatile causes of the original changes. Whether we hold a traditional or modern belief in our views on how we should conduct our own relationships... we are inevitably reaching outward to the world... in order to create a relationship. Therefore society plays its part in influencing
my future as an independent individual.

we now have a lot more tools and interest that are possible from the days of my youth - one TV in the home - - 3 TV channels only. NO Nintendo, no computers, it was playing outside, chasing the dog, watching the dog(and others dogs) chase a rabbit around the house, around and around to suddenly realize the rabbit was sitting in plain sight watching the dogs run around and around the house. to getting out the water guns and having water gun fights for hours on a hot day. To making a lunch and heading down river (on the road by it on our bikes) to a cave and exploring for a while - - and coming back hours later.

We simply have to manage our tools and distractions, make them educational.


There are elements of inadequacy about how little I can demonstrate and introduce my family about modern relationships; when I have failed the traditional approach and still in measure of the possibility to have a successful relationship as a woman in my proposition.

Life is changing, many do not understand, so it is not always you are failing - - it could be simply that the other does not understand - - - a lot of little things we call expectations are present in our everyday lives. These are none spoken, and not always realized about what you desire and want - - - They are simply expectations and failure on the others part to provide them effects the relationship in hidden ways - - With the changing of life and relationships this causes a major problem

It somehow feels like throwing the children to the Lion's cage with blind folds on, if I am not educating myself on the possible solutions or understanding progressions of such matter.

I found with my kids, that little comments at the right time goes a long ways - - - Their brains are like sponges and are ready to take input - - but you have to let them think about it - not order or boss, or give one line responses, but give them comments to think about and ponder. And realize, just like they can not learn to ride a bike without falling down, allow them to make the mistake again and sit back and go - - hum, Mom said this could happen - - how did she know - - - - allow them to learn - - - allow them to realize.

Not always as teacher but as friend - - companion, Point out a few things - - - as things happen - - - this takes forethought - - be a mentor, a wise guide, allow this to become a question and answer time, allow them to realize that they like this time of sharing and caring, as it is done with love and kindness, but you can not simply pick the time - - the time has to find you, then make this as part of the child special 15 minutes each day that they need.

Never lecture, never in upset way, but calmly, not ways when it happens but later - - again forethought and patience - - - bid your time - - - you are the parent - - nothing has to be handled in the next 30 seconds.

This can be in terms of the way of life, relationships, See and old couple holding hands and comment about it to the little one, I would like to be that way when I am older, Let the child respond - - huh, the comment about the love, caring, and efforts it takes, that if you talk nasty to an other - - this will not happen - - of course if in the prior day or two you had a case to correct the way that the little one is speaking it helps - - -

My son needed help in knowing what it meant to be a man, todays modern world, has lost the right of manhood, it has become for a man to have a car or be able to take a girl on a date. It has lost what it used to be, what we are inside. We would have lots of talks about this over the years after he came to live with me.

So it takes a bit of thinking ahead of time, being patient to find the right time when the little one is ready to hear - - -

This forethought is the problem - - finding time to do it - - think about what is happening and then have the patience to wait for the right moment - - -

I would find myself doing this as I drove down the road, or simply relaxing - - or cooking - - let part of my mind wonder to this - - - preparing for the next discussion.

I read a book years ago about raising kids (Parents Effective Training PET)- - - one of the major points is - - - that two year old child - - - is thinking and planning all day on how to get you to give her that ice cream bar, you are thinking about what to cook for dinner to find time to get started on dinner while doing the laundry, making sure that the young one has not ran out into the street, you have 1o seconds to respond when she lays it on you. Believe me they are that smart and will try, once mine looked at me and said - "That did not work, Dang" in other words they worked together on it - - - 3 planning against one with no warning. We have to remember they are not kids, but young adults with fully functional minds. Forethought - - being prepared for this - - maybe they get you the first time but you realize it and be prepared for the next time - - - -

My hope is, proposing clarity and finding references can act as supports to assist our coming generations... in making authentic choices within their own lives and with more success.

this is a big task,

We have to correct for problems that were caused in the 60's. The book Doc Spock's guide to child raising or something like that it is caused - - - is one of the major problems with todays generation and the current. You see I got the whole store a few years ago. Doc Spock was a Doctor of the brain - - - mental - - - he was German and strict as they can be - - he was going to raise his son in this way. totally strict, the son was not allowed to cry or or or or - - he ended up putting his son into a mental institution for care - - he was in this institution for 10 years. When this happened the Doctor changed his concept to totally the opposite - - - this is the man that wrote the book for child rearing that was the bible of child raising in the 60's and 70's each mother with a child had to have this book.

Is this the man that we really should be following? ? ? ? ? ?

So what we need to do is stop and think - - realize what works for us, not always follow the strict guide lines that are pushed upon us and we think we are trying to follow.

Jim P
 JamesP166
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 54
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History
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 4/7/2008 10:35:27 PM
Very True

It is hard today - - - - so many other temptations out there without the hard times or feelings. other singles out looking and flirting - - - - so a rough spot occurs and someone else is promising to make all good, or simply is it worth it - - - as you said.

We have a saying - - that the grass is always greener on the other side - - and if you see cows or horses in a pasture, reaching threw the fence to eat that grass when the grass looks the same on their side.

and the pressure to keep trying has been removed - - - -

as for your comment - - your marriage sounds like it lost communication,

Jim P.
 feedem
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 60
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The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 4/10/2008 2:31:56 PM
Not surprising people don't stay together.........replaceable people.......lets all own a duplex.....partner can live in the same house and help with the overhead.......then when it's over .......leave............takes two incomes to keep a house going.....and buy some gasoline.....dinner and a movie.....some new tennis shoes........comfort is what we make it.......
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 65
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 1/26/2009 8:50:01 AM

Since the man is then forced to keep on performing his bread-winning role by sending in the checks (even as she is freed from her role as wife)


Unluckily, for both men and women, society has arranged it so that men fit the bread-winner role better, because it arranges that men make more both across the board and for doing the same job. (And if you think not, do the research.) This often leaves him with less time to parent, to say the least. In the case of my EX, he had not one single clue as to what parenting *meant* (reading stories for 15 minutes to clean kiddles in jammies before Mommy whisked them away to bed).

Secondly, if the "payments" he was making prior to the divorce was simply for the services of a wife, that makes a marriage simply a whore/john relationship sanctioned by the culture, eh?


(even as she is freed from her role as wife)

He is free also from being a husband. She is NOT free from the role of being the primary parental control deliverer. I remember how exhausting working 8 hours/2 hours travel to/from, and then being responsible for food shopping, preparation, clothes washing, homework, general repair of the souls of small boys was. *He* simply continued to do as he loved: work. He washed clothes, shopped, and prepared food for one, as he had for 35 years before having a 10 year break with a wife doing so.

Meanwhile, said wife is working a much lower paid job (even if wages had been equal) because she "was vacationing" (raising children). This loss of time put in/wages received will continue for the whole of her working life. Society continued to pay into his retirement fund at this higher rate, NOT mine. . . . 40 years later this is manifested as his receiving triple the retirement I receive.

Society gives a whole lot of lip service into the concept of the enormous value of raising new members of society. In practice, it severely punishes anyone who chooses to do so.

 jezebellpgh
Joined: 2/3/2010
Msg: 68
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 10/31/2010 10:59:39 AM
Velvet:*

The code of society when it comes to love, is screwing on the 3rd date, having a variety of different sex partners in monogamous short term relationships so maybe some man may want to f*ck you permanently once he has tried you and a variety of women out in bed. No thank you, I'll pass on being an unpaid whore for all of mankind.
 UglyFroggieCritter
Joined: 8/21/2010
Msg: 69
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 10/31/2010 11:46:42 AM
Man, there's a code of love????

I'm still trying to figure out what the rules are.....

OT

"Traditional family values" means different things to different people. To each their own. I'll live my life the way I see fit and will not be offended by others who do so differently.
 jezebellpgh
Joined: 2/3/2010
Msg: 70
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 11/1/2010 4:57:10 AM
Not all marriages that took place before the 1970s were unhappy for the females in them. My extended family is full of marriages that have lasted for decades. My great Aunt Mitz and Uncle Frank must now be married for like 70 years, my one mom's cousin has been married since the early mid 1950s. Not all female were beaten and physically abused. Women just wanted a choice of not marrying or not, which we now have. It now gives out the signal to men to be a pr*ck to many single women because we are now "equal" and deserve really crappy immoral behavior directed toward us. As women, we've tried to stomach this and rationalize this, that uncommitted sex with multiple sex partners in very temporary is gratifying and fun, so we aren't too prudish. Good luck it going against what you really want which is commitment instead of shacking up and being tried out like a car.
 DemonLeather
Joined: 8/10/2007
Msg: 71
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 11/1/2010 5:25:57 AM
Absolutely a GREAT question.. Now, is their a great answer,. No, I don't think so.. as far as "traditional" stuff goes.. if you've been in the forums any length of time, you'll find I've been a tradition basher since day one. I think the "traditional" system is at the very LEAST antiquated & outdated itself pretty much out of existance,. If you' are with the "traditional" system you are pretty much still in the 50's of the LAST 100 years,. and its time for an extreme make-over..
No matter what decade you reside your emotional & moralistic realm in there are "B1tches & Dogs" in all of them.. this dates back to B.C because some things just never change.. but I don't think we need the "Moralistic Code police" anymore.. well that's in MY humble (ok, not-so-humble) opinion BUT, as a Demon, I'm dancin' with the Devil in the pale moon light every night...party-on...
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 72
The Code of Love in Modern Society
Posted: 11/1/2010 7:49:34 AM

Not all marriages that took place before the 1970s were unhappy for the females in them.

Of course they weren't.I'm not going to go back thru this "Lazurus" thread and find out if someone actually SAID that.

Women just wanted a choice of not marrying or not, which we now have. It now gives out the signal to men to be a pr*ck to many single women because we are now "equal" and deserve really crappy immoral behavior directed toward us.

I won't DISagree that there seems to be an element of resentment with SOME men-but I doubt that there has been some big-ass "signal" for the entire male gender to become nothing more than a bunch of walking penises intent on punishing women for having a greater range of lifestyle choices.

Good luck it going against what you really want which is commitment instead of shacking up and being tried out like a car.

No, I think a lot of women want the middle ground between 19th/20th century marriage with the only other option being sluthood. That middle ground does exist- and lots of women are exploring it. Any woman who is experiencing a lot of crappy immoral behavior from men has probably had her worth gauged at that level. Instead of throwing rocks, maybe these women should work on either improving themselves or accepting their particular dating reality, or a combination of both- with a realization that a happy independent life is better that a miserable partnership,and that maybe THEIR particular solution lies somewhere in the middle ground.
The other thing is that people need to develop their own personal,individual"code" of what works for them and not let in an undue amount of influence from outside sources.

Good luck it going against what you really want which is commitment instead of shacking up and being tried out like a car.

pfft! I've known of "shacking up" situations that have lasted longer than many marriages...as well as "shacking up" relationships that became marriages when the time was right.
Cindy O
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