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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Uphold the constitution?      Home login  
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 IronmanUK
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 1
Uphold the constitution?Page 1 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
I know this might sound like a silly question coming from a Brit but come next January when the new US president is taking the oath of office:

'I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.'

and given that the USA patriot act largly over-rides the constitution, what will he/she swear to uphold?
 PurpleCrayon~
Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 2
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 5:29:33 PM
If the time comes that we here in the USA are refused the right to post here by our government.

If the time comes that I cannot vote for my choice.

If the time comes that I am not allowed to bear arms at all.

If the time comes that I cannot go state to state at will.

If the time comes......

then, the question you pose
what will he/she swear to uphold?
will be valid. Until then, that question holds no water.
 IronmanUK
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 3
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 5:51:04 PM
But the trouble is, the patriot act gives your president the power to legally enforce all of the above should they so wish.
Added to that, if your new president swears to uphold the constitution then from a legal stand point doesn't this mean that the patriot act would no longer be lawful and a total waste of time and YOUR money?
 Kiss_My_Karma~
Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 4
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 5:54:32 PM
Some people are trying to get the patriot act repealed to my knowledge. If not repealed, at least set back to what it was intended for, which was so not what we have now. I wonder if people that support this know that their phone conversations can and are being legally eavesdropped on, and that their emails are probably being read too. All in the name of the patriot act. Next they'll put cameras in our bathrooms.
 Barbe1963
Joined: 9/30/2007
Msg: 5
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 5:56:42 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Next they'll put cameras in our bathrooms.

psst...looks like it is too late, It appers to have happened!!!
 Kiss_My_Karma~
Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 6
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 5:57:52 PM
psst...looks like it is too late, It appers to have happened!!!


I was fully aware of that one, even signed my own disclaimer. lol

 woodenmike
Joined: 6/17/2007
Msg: 7
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 7:00:29 PM

If the time comes that we here in the USA are refused the right to post here by our government.


It's called "Internet 2", and they are working on it.


If the time comes that I cannot vote for my choice.


Aren't you already either voting for THEIR choice, or not having your vote counted?


If the time comes that I am not allowed to bear arms at all.


Here's another one that's happening already, look at the Supreme Court case about Washington D.C.! Lok at Chicago's "No Handgun" laws. It incremental, but it is well underway.


If the time comes that I cannot go state to state at will.


Can you now with the manipulated high gas prices? And look at the ever increasing hoops one must jump through to board a domestic flight!


If the time comes......

then, the question you pose

".....what will he/she swear to uphold?"

will be valid. Until then, that question holds no water.


But it's all coming to pass! Isn't the time to fight it NOW before our liberties are lost forever?
 namegame2
Joined: 4/17/2007
Msg: 8
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 7:29:54 PM

and given that the USA patriot act largly over-rides the constitution,


Uh-huh. Sure.
 tmpzor
Joined: 1/22/2008
Msg: 9
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 7:31:38 PM
Unlike the UK, we've got open borders. We've got people in this country all over the place that could be part of terrorist cells. After 9/11 happened, you have to understand, leadership and law enforcement after 9/11 got reamed for doing a horrible job of preventing it when, in many people's minds, it was preventable. At least if the dots had been connected we would have known more before it than we did after it -- and I think there's a reaction here among people that we're not going to let this happen again no matter what.

It's a tough call, and definitely something that needs to be analyzed and debated.
 PurpleCrayon~
Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 10
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 7:54:01 PM
As a matter of fact, I'm talking ... well... IMing with a friend now and we are on this very subject. Protecting our borders. It's time for the USA to take a tough stand and do whatever it takes to keep the present Citizens safe.

We can no longer be complacent and worry about PCness.
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 11
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 8:36:26 PM

their phone conversations can and are being legally eavesdropped on,


That explains what we thought was snoring on the line during my phone conversations.
 NwMke
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 12
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 9:54:26 PM

If the time comes that we here in the USA are refused the right to post here by our government.

If the time comes that I cannot vote for my choice.

If the time comes that I am not allowed to bear arms at all.

If the time comes that I cannot go state to state at will.

If the time comes......




Well most of that is already here and what is not is well on its way so you will need to upgrade what you are saying to the next stage.

If the take my family out and shoot them for talking against the government.

If they post a gaurd to walk beside me to listen to everything I say.
Oh wait they got that already with cell phones.

If elections are rigged.
Shit they do that too...

Well if they they take my brother out and shoot him for protesting the government then its time.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security Ben Franklin
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 13
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/4/2008 11:30:03 PM

and given that the USA patriot act largly over-rides the constitution,

Uh-huh. Sure.

Care to cite your sources?
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 14
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 5:05:25 AM
When Bush took the oath he heard "constipation".
 ronjo58
Joined: 2/10/2006
Msg: 15
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 5:33:24 AM
I wonder if anyone posting has actually read the text of the patriot act. It specifically states that its intention is for seeking out terrorists and stopping them before they attack. It has no effect on common US citizens,unless one is communicating with terrorists. The intention,also, of the Patriot act is to allow agencies to share information among themselves. It allows those agencies to conduct covert operations and act upon them with due haste,which is very important in stopping terrorist acts.
If one does see a camera in the bathroom,that would be security in a dept store that has regulations about merchandise, not being allowed in the bathrooms. One will usually see that sign before one enters the bathroom. It is not the govn watching anyone, on the toilet. Paranoia seems to be prevalent in these days and who can blame one? But one needs to research and remember there are people out there that don't like America. They would try to convince one of anything ,to make one feel bad about our great country. That will never happen with me until they try to take my right to keep and bear arms. Until then, God Bless America!
 SolidStateSurfer
Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 16
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 6:02:04 AM

If the time comes that I cannot vote for my choice.

Laughable, if voting ever really took the power out of their hands and put it back in yours it would be outlawed under some ruse. Look what you have now to choose from.
Their similarities far outweigh their differences. You toss in a Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich and they are strategicaly maligned, ignored, scoffed at and pushed aside by the media. Which we all know is simply the propoganda arm of the one party with two faces.



If the time comes that I am not allowed to bear arms at all

Oh yeah? Then what are you going to do exactly? LOL, hold a protest rally? By this time they will have the food supply so under control you will do anything they tell you to do because all populations are controled by one thiing in the end, their stomach. You are not gonna do a damn thing.



If the time comes that I cannot go state to state at will

You will what? Go blasting through check points like Mad Max? You are not going to do a damn thing. The time to act against this NeoCon NWO is right now! And what do you do? Support its strongest advocate, McBush and his policies. It would have been a "revolutionary act" to vote for the only chance freedom has had in this country in decades and you couldnt even do that. Ron Paul was our guy and all you suckers fell for the "Terrorism" , Iraq, vomit. You think 5000 dead New Yorkers was worth giving up ONE TINY BIT OF FREEDOM? There in lies the problem. Because if you think your going t ostage a revolt once things get to the above mentioned condition, that will be a daily body count. Frickn NeoCons~ True Beliver Syndrome~ just wanna shake some sense into them.
 SolidStateSurfer
Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 17
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 6:05:12 AM

It specifically states that its intention is for seeking out terrorists and stopping them before they attack. It has no effect on common US citizens,unless one is communicating with terrorists


Todays definition of terrorist is a middle eastern radical muslim. Tommorows could be the guy who is pro constitution. But of course that could never happen right? Good lord please, drink the Neo Con Kool Aid now so we can get rid of some of the surplus humans around here..
 NwMke
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 18
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Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 6:17:19 AM
.
ronjo; have you ever bothered to read the patriot act? If you did you missed section 202 where ANY crime makes you a terrorist? Where speaking out against the government "can" be construed as a terrorist.

The idiocy of the people is that we look around and like moles cannot even see the tip of our noses. So we look around and say DUH they arent calling anyone terrorists for speech so its cool no big deal. No one considers that what is actually happening is that these stipulations will be used that way in the future after it has been on the books for several years and has precidence and a legal infrastructure to manage it.

Look at california with their home schooling ban that forces kids to be indoctrinated into the system rather than think for themselves. Its extremely important to get people into the school system as we are creatures of habit and once those habits spawn they are very difficult to break.

The point you that you are completely missing here is that our "CONSTITUTIONAL" government does not have the authority granted by us to do these covert operations and they do not have the authority to spy on US as in the united state citizens.

Are you that freaking blind or is your memory on par with a mouse and you have already forgotten that ATT and Verizon have routed all our as in US citizens phone calls to and through the NSA? Then when people sued congress granted them immunity? Are you so hopelessly blinded that you do not know that SCOTUS ruled that torture is unconstitutional and congress turned right around and on that same bill wrote in an immunity clause for the bushco gang and all future government officials? Only congress can overule the supreme court and only people can overule them all and we as in you have our heads up our asses and rather than develope some sort of solidarity the people of the US cant even get past pc to discuss it much less do something about. We are a country in paralysis and its through our own ignorance and by the time we figure it out it will be to late.
.
 NwMke
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 19
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 6:28:08 AM
.
If you defend the constitution you ARE a terrorist!

Here are photostats of the fbi flyer that have been verified official through many sources.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg

Pay particular attention to the back side.

These photostats are being maintained by an appropriate website arent they?

And you were saying what about our rights?
.
 namegame2
Joined: 4/17/2007
Msg: 20
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 6:29:51 AM

Care to cite your sources?


The clown states matter-of-factly that a new president can't swear to uphold the constitution because the Patriot act over-rides the constitution, and *I* have to cite sources for my laughter?

Try providing a link to a supreme court decision stating it is unconstitutional.

Like all legislation and policy, specific parts have been struck down and subsequently modified. To say it is unconstitutional based on that is rather like saying that the entire legal system is unconstitutional because various parts of the process have at various times been ruled so. Or that our voting system is unconstitutional, or affirmative action.
 NwMke
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 21
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 8:15:08 AM
.
Yeh right name game.

I suppose you want to extend the term constitutional to include all the UNLAWFUL legislation used to control guns while totally sidestepping that that little word shall not be "INFRINGED".

As an example:
ALL gun control IS an infringement by definition, and on some level impairs my ability to own and bear. Now you can rationalize, spin and paint it any color you wish as the constitution is specific and perfectly clear that the only person that cannot own and bear are persons who ARE IN JAIL. Felons are not in jail hence are constitutionally lawfully eligible to own and bear yet they are forbidden to do so. Now you may have been trained to accept the spin through teaching, fear or simply rationalized it, it really doesnt matter.

Since they know they will never get an amendment through they circumvent it with all these "logical" laws that are rationalized or founded through fear and whatever else works to take them and the rest of our rights away incrementally in tiny little stages that people will accept it over time and the greater majority of us are to dumb or lazy or simply do not care to do anything about it.

So by all means you an others should rationalize until there are so many slices taken out of our "inalienable" rights that you can then make the case there is no longer a need for a constitution at all.

.
 Slightly_Stoopid
Joined: 7/23/2007
Msg: 22
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 8:36:31 AM
Swearing to uphold the Constitution bears little weight now days unfortunately. In gradeschool you are told that our countries laws are bound by the Constitution, which in todays day and age are blatently false. Stating that the Supreme Counrt has ruled something to not be unconstitutional bears little weight, they can say that about anything, and more often then not their own personal politics or the politics of their party play a larger role then what the constitution actually says. For instance:

The congress has the ultimate responsability to coin money. However it has been ruled constitutional for congress to give up that responsability to a privately owned bank (the Federal Reserve) with no ability to change the banks policies.

The Patriot Act allows for invasive police tactics without court oversight if a person is suspected as being a terrorist. Terrorist is such a broad term that you could literally claim anyone in America could be a suspected terrorist. It also allows for the indefinite holding of such an unlucky individual without a lawyer and without ever being told what they are charged with. This breaks at least 5 of the first 10 amendments in and of itself, but passes due to "security reasons"

Congres alone has the perogative to declare war. Unfortunately this has been given to the President by congress in the past 60 or so years by an end around. Wars that are not declared require no congressional approval and the US has not declared an actual war since WWII. Whenever a congressman puts up a vote in congress to actually declare these "non-war" wars, it gets shot down as being too agressive. Mainly, going into actual warfare with another country means that the congressmen will have to explain the higher taxes to his constituancy, and why we are there

Just a small sample of things for sure. I'm sure if i looked deep enough I could find cases where everything spelled out in Art 1 Sect 8 have been broken and ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court. Are we going to move to be more in accordance with the Constitution? I wish. But I doubt it
 SolidStateSurfer
Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 23
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 8:38:41 AM

I suppose you want to extend the term constitutional to include all the UNLAWFUL legislation used to control guns while totally sidestepping that that little word shall not be "INFRINGED".

As an example:
ALL gun control IS an infringement by definition, and on some level impairs my ability to own and bear. Now you can rationalize, spin and paint it any color you wish as the constitution is specific and perfectly clear that the only person that cannot own and bear are persons who ARE IN JAIL. Felons are not in jail hence are constitutionally lawfully eligible to own and bear yet they are forbidden to do so. Now you may have been trained to accept the spin through teaching, fear or simply rationalized it, it really doesnt matter.

Since they know they will never get an amendment through they circumvent it with all these "logical" laws that are rationalized or founded through fear and whatever else works to take them and the rest of our rights away incrementally in tiny little stages that people will accept it over time and the greater majority of us are to dumb or lazy or simply do not care to do anything about it.

So by all means you an others should rationalize until there are so many slices taken out of our "inalienable" rights that you can then make the case there is no longer a need for a constitution at all.


Dead on the money. And then the spineless nutered crowd will almost always have an aloof response to this logic. Like, oh come on bro! Be resonable, yuck yuck. They do this because they dont want t oaccept responsibility of freedom and self determination. They would rather crack a beer and rub one out looking at porn.
 NwMke
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 24
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History
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 8:46:58 AM
You are the homegrown terrorist threat
By Michael Hampton
Posted: May 13, 2007 11:26 pm
Share this story: Digg del.icio.us reddit.com Newsvine

If you’re an American reading this, then under expansive definitions being used by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and several states in their counterterrorism training, you just might be a domestic terrorist.

The FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force in Phoenix, Ariz., distributed a brochure (Images: 1, 2) to local law enforcement agencies a few years ago which defines terrorism as individuals or groups within the U.S. who engage in criminal activity to promote political or social changes. This is correct, as far as it goes, but the brochure then gives a listing of “suspicious” activities, telling law enforcement officers: “If you encounter any of the following, call the Joint Terrorism Task Force.”

Some of the things for which you should be reported as a suspected terrorist include the usual things, like weapons of mass destruction, and hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and Neo-Nazis, but also includes people who “Make numerous references to US Constitution,” “Claim driving is a right, not a privilege” and “Attempt to ‘police the police.’”

In addition, “People whose political motivation is usually Marxist/Leninist philosophy,” “‘defenders’ of the US Constitution against federal government and the UN,” computer hackers, and “Lone Individuals” should also be reported.

Do you fall under any of those categories? I certainly do; more than one, in fact. So I’m probably under suspicion somewhere as a domestic terrorist.

Last week, the state of Alabama Department of Homeland Security got scrutinized for an interactive terrorism awareness training section of its Web site, which said much the same things. The bureaucrats removed the entire training after it wound up on digg.com, a popular Web site where users can promote news to the site’s front page.

In Alabama, it seems, promoting gun rights can also get you branded a domestic terrorist.

Alabama’s site was based on a similar one from the state of Pennsylvania, which in addition to all of the above, says that promoting jury nullification, secession, or the belief that all governments must ultimately become corrupted by power also makes you a domestic terrorist worth watching.

But it gets worse.

But you see, I once read Unintended Consequences and was quite impressed with the book. Then one day I attended a FBI security briefing for technology security and was confronted with an image of the book — strongly implying those who own or read the book were terrorists.

But now I find I’m considered a terrorist by many other government agencies! Seriously, I wonder when I shall be arrested and “Detained.” . . .

The state of Virginia also says I’m a terrorist. (PDF) Why there? Because I’m a “property rights advocate.” Seriously, in Virginia, you’re a TERRORIST if you advocate for property rights. I think they’re going to need to build more jails to house us all. . . .

Incredibly, none of this is in jest. These various government agencies honestly believe *I* am a “domestic terrorist.” That is so sad. Indeed, this once-great country has nowhere to go but down. — Ogre’s Politics & Views

http://www.virginianewssource.com/images/VATerrorismManual.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/20060110071648/www.homelandsecurity.alabama.gov/tap/anti-gov_grps.htm

http://www.fija.org/


http://www.republicofnh.org/

http://www.pa-aware.org/

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/you-are-the-homegrown-terrorist-threat/


From our friends in Alabama;

Anti-Government Groups?
Domestic Terrorist Course Links
* Hate Groups in Alabama
* Anti-Government Groups
* Anarchist Groups
* Separatist Movement
* Single Issue Extremists

Anti-government groups usually believe:
* Gun Control = Enslavement
* Constitution has been subverted
* The U.S. has lost its sovereignty

Opposition to a strong federal government is not new. The first Continental Congress wrestled with this issue when they first created the ?Articles of Confederation? before our present day Constitution. George Washington marched troops into Pennsylvania to uphold the power of the Federal Government to collect taxes. In fact, we fought a civil war over the issue of individual and states versus federal rights.

Today?s anti-government groups have their origins in the shock and outrage among a number of groups to include gun rights groups, tax protestors, and white supremacists over the government actions with the Branch Davidian religious cult at Waco and and white supremacist Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge along with recent laws that limited gun ownership. A coalition of these groups called for the formation of ?leaderless resistance? groups?the beginning of ?unorganized militias?. Few people involved in this self styled ?Patriot Movement? are criminals but there are some on the extreme fringe that are convinced that the Government has been subverted and that their freedoms must be aggressively defended to the point of attacks on our governing institutions.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060110071648/www.homelandsecurity.alabama.gov/tap/anti-gov_grps.htm
.
 IronmanUK
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 25
Uphold the constitution?
Posted: 5/5/2008 8:50:39 AM
The clown is back

Site my sources huh?

OK, lets try these first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6jD_jySiwg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qujCIGplnyk&feature=related

Failing that, try 'Google', 'Yahoo' etc, etc, and type in the search bar : PATRIOT ACT
There's about 3,590,000 sources for your perusal...

Just make sure to come back & give us your conclusions when you've got through them all.....OK?

EDIT: Please do pay perticular attention to the way in which it was implemented.
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