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 OTTO BONN
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 7
Universe Came From NothingPage 1 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Since energy can be neither created nor destroyed. . .

It can and was. . . by The Creator.

There was no Big Bang. It was a massive burst of light as in Let There Be Light.
 Opusvoid
Joined: 5/10/2008
Msg: 27
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:13:25 AM
This is an interesting discussion.

Some scientists have speculated that the universe has existed many times...that it expands, implodes, then expands again.

I have my own spiritual beliefs and one of my own thoughts on this is that the universe chose the be. A sentient being or brings that didn't exist, can exist by choosing to do so. If you believe in science, what's beyond the universe? if you believe in god, what's beyond that? the paradox will remain a mystery the physical creatures for eternity, but when you think about such things you want an answer. That's why philosophers and scientists do what they do. They want an answer. Some of us think we know the answer and some of us know the answer. So far the universe is what it is and it exists with a very simple system.
 Opusvoid
Joined: 5/10/2008
Msg: 29
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:11:32 PM
adamf73, You have a very broad and open mind and you like the kind of person I'd love to have these such conversations with.

Lets look at it this way...conceive if you will, that thought isn't matter, nor is thinking or knowing. Say that consciousness is its own entity. A lifeform that doesn't need to be physical in order to exist. Then this living entity decides to be physical in one matter or another, then other entities just like it decide to do the same. Pretty soon everything around them becomes physical and thus we have the physical universe. An interesting way of looking at it, but it depends what you believe. Science is a tool, but it can't observe and know everything. A sad, but true reality.
 father3
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 31
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:34:07 PM
asking why there is something rather than nothing is kind of pointless because we know there is something. if there was nothing we wouldnt be asking the question.
 thatottguy
Joined: 5/22/2006
Msg: 49
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/20/2008 3:16:52 PM
The universe 'came from nothing' and is STILL nothing. At the smallest level every aspect in this universe has an exact opposite, thus the nature of duality. Think of it like opposing sound waves that should they meet again would combine to cancel each other out. Once they cancel out all that is left is the external energy that was available before the 'big bang'. The universe is 'nothing' and yet here we are...

As for time as an illusion... imagine if every aspect of this universe was set to exactly the state they were in 1 week ago and we recognized that fact would it be 1 week ago... or would it be today? What if you changed something from the way you did it last time... would you have changed the past or changed the present. Time only exists due to our perception of movement... if nothing ever moved, what time would it be?

Also, everyone seems to believe the universe is expanding, however, if all matter in the universe were 'shrinking' proportionally how would we ever know the difference?
 OTTO BONN
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 53
Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/24/2008 7:06:31 PM
The term 'Big Bang' was first coined by Fred Hoyle in a derisory statement seeking to belittle the credibility of the theory that he did not believe to be true.

Maybe the universe is much larger, older, and complex than we've imagined it to be.

Well to me the universe seems pretty large, old, and complex as it is.
 gregorywb
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 56
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/24/2008 10:59:13 PM
Everything comes from nothing, eh? Quantum Physicists back that up? Maybe the theories have changed again, but the last time I checked, "comes from" is a qualifier indicative of the existence of time, which, according to relative physics, is really just an illusion created in our minds to organize the change we observe. If I remember correctly, according to these physicists, at the "beginning" of the universe, every particle of matter was supposedly concentrated in one point with no size representation and infinite density, called a singularity. It seems to me that concerning such an object (or whatever you would call it), time would be an irrelevant or simply nonsensical measurement until such an event occurred which removed any properties represented as being infinite. It helps to think of infinity as a circle rather than as a line stretching on forever- would "change" really have any meaning if you simply arrived at your origin at each "consecutive moment" (which is really a misleading phrase, but whatever)?

Therefore, contemplating where matter came from "before" such an event would be rather like asking someone what the color of round is. Time is a property of the universe in which we live. "Nothing" has no property called "time", nor could there even be an idea called nothing without there being an opposing idea called something against which to define it, in which case there would not be nothing. Light would be a meaningless word if there were no such thing as absence of light.

That being said, I don't really buy much of the big bang theory mumbo jumbo, but it makes for some good mind stretching reading if you are interested. "Fabric of the Cosmos" by Brian Greene is good for those of you who would like to check it out. I prefer to leave my understanding of origin and future these days at "I don't understand and I can't understand, therefore I will focus on what I do understand and what I can understand."
 gregorywb
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 63
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/25/2008 9:31:01 PM


So using this logic we can conclude that at the beginning of the universe the same amount of energy existed then as does now, just now we have more matter due to the condension of the energies. We also have finer energies beneath our highly dense physical bodies that have been captured by special cameras. These are often refered to auras and the soul. Since energy cannot simply fade out of existence and is permanent in existence we can conclude that our conciousness energy (spirit) can never die. Anything alive has a conciousness matrix which makes lifeforms live.

When energy is converted to matter, the energy involved in the conversion is lost until the matter is converted back into energy...

What makes one type of energy "finer" than another type of energy?

And what exactly is "conciousness energy"? What separates it from other types of energy? Is a plant concious? Could a rock be imbued with a so-called "conciousness matrix" in order to create a new lifeform? Where are your ideas coming from?


To me, the only answer I get from asking any questions about origins is this: the idea of God is not any more ridiculous than any other idea. And we just don't know.
 gregorywb
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 67
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/26/2008 3:34:20 PM
God himself cannot give life to a rock, eh? Hm.



Gravity is supposed to be a relatively weak force, as compared to others. It takes supermassive objects to generate enough gravity, to hold a plantery system together, therefore it is a weak force.


I don't really know that much about all this, but some of the ideas have seem to be rather... baseless?
 gregorywb
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 71
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/26/2008 8:40:31 PM


I wouldn't be so sure... Rocks were here before humans and if everything started out as one thing, we are the rocks.Wasn't me that said it.... I'm with you
 Sakora
Joined: 10/24/2007
Msg: 98
Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 12:10:44 PM
You all seem to comtemplate this topic on Einstiens theory of relativity. But what about string theory? A new approach to theoretical physics.

I highly recommend watching Stephen Hawkings "A theory of Everything" this does not just include the big bang, but what was before, and what is beyond, how it is all connected.

The debate that the universe came from nothing is rather very interesting. Matter is only an illusion?
"At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and anti-leptons—of the order of 1 part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe" Thus matter does exist.
 cjswanson55025
Joined: 1/3/2008
Msg: 150
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Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/10/2008 5:44:15 PM
All of this theory of where our universe came from...

We can speculate forever, but I believe a better question to ask is "why," and not "how?"

The big bang is sound in theory, but it doesn't ask a deeper question of why it happened. I have heard a few people mention the multiverse which led to the existence of the big bang. The problem with that theory is quite obvious; Where did one of these parallel dimensions come from? The same argument can be applied applied to having a "universe before ours." We simple need to ask why instead of how.

I see two possible conclusions about what happened before the "beginning" of the universe. Both of which lead to a higher power which we cannot understand.

The first of which is quite simple;god created us. Further discussion is a moot point.

The second, which I believe is a bit more sound, requires further elaboration. Prior to the universes creation, there was a period "before" it. The most natural name I could up for this time period would be the chaos dimension. The chaos dimension would have no concept of time, space, or matter. This time frame would represent all existence prior to the universe's creation. Since time is not a part of this chaos dimension, we can simply qualify for the entire period prior to the universe's theoretical beginning. Of course, something must caused the chaos dimension to collapse into a single point and create the universe. Either god, or some quantum event we cannot grasp, must have been the cause.

Of course, if we follow this line of thinking, one would need to ask the question "Where did god come from?"

Perhaps there are some things we will never understand...
 Jax1112
Joined: 3/24/2007
Msg: 159
Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/13/2008 3:39:28 AM
This is a very good post with some impressive reads. Kodos to the OP for starting a very good dialogue. There has been a limited amount material which is footnoted, so i am unsure about what is expert and what is heresey. I have seen Einstein's name mentioned (big fan). What i like about E is not just his genius thought processes, but that in instances where his ideas were wrong, he quickly admitted it. Mistakes or no, what he came up with in his theories of Special and General Relativity mark the creation of concepts that are pure genius... ways of looking at the cosmos which are beyond the mental abilities of most humans even today (and i include myself here). Anyway, after big Albert, people have spoken of Stephen Hawking and another person i believe i have seen numerous times on the science channel (sorry, cannot remembername). I would like to add another name to the discussion... Brian Greene. He has written at least 2 books on cosmology; "The Elegant Universe" and "Fabric of the Cosmos". I have read the latter and consider it a much easier read than Hawking. And his compilation of scientific thought and knowledge was, for me, a trip. There is a whole other world taking place beyond our everyday humdrum life and it is stunning.

As a thinking, learning, somewhat intelligent species i do believe that we continue to close-in on answers to ultimate questions such as this. Since knowledge is combinatorial we continue becoming smarter and smarter creatures (as the conversation on here indicates). However, if there are questions for which we do not yet have the answer, i try not to panic... because everyday, in everyway we become more knowledgeable. So, someday we will know the answers, if we do not annihilate ourselves first. Which brings us back to us. What is human sentience? How is it we get to think and know about and sometimes even make decisions about things. What is that spark that changes neural connections and chemicals into thinking sentient beings. Not a new a thread... i am just trying to understand how it is that human conciousness gives us ideas like Einstein's, intelligent conversation on the internet, and then makes people fly planes into buildings.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 200
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:27:47 AM

In a sense, the universe still is nothing. all the particles have antiparticles, all the forces have antiforces, etc. A physics professor once explained it to me as "The vector sum of the universe is precisely zero."


I've never heard of an anti-force, but one large mystery about how our universe began is what happened to all of the anti-particles. Our universe is (as we now know it) is overwhelmingly matter. What happened to all of the anti-matter?
 Refinedsillyguy
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 243
Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/28/2008 11:32:00 PM
Helium eh. Interesting never knew that. I guess it would give a star or planet gravitational features.

They are saying Mars had life, and aliens live on the moon. I actually seen a couple interesting videos on Youtube.

In my opinion, space dust, remians of collided meteorites coming together by the helium maybe, it would need other elements though I think. mutiplies, binds and forms larger meteors.

The sun which I have no clue as to how it got its spark maybe fusion. Seems to control all the gravitational pull in our atmosphere. Like a fusion reaction it continues to grow, which could lead to a warmer earth. As planets are consumed by the sun, new formed planets enter our solar system. The second rock from the sun is already dried up. How Mars is dried up is mystery.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 247
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/30/2008 5:40:38 PM
I have no physics or math background.. just a warning!

I was reading this thread and thinking about some things I had heard about M-theory and I wondered... wouldn't a true singularity be pure potential? And nothing else? How much does the "observer" effect play in the construct of the universe? Why would it need a cause... since time would have been irrelevant, it's not like it was waiting for anything, it just was... potential. There would be no before...as "time" is the movement (or change) of matter through space.. no matter, no energy, no space...= no time.

Another thought.. if Energy=Matter.. what makes something "matter" and not "energy"... or is matter a coalesced or condensed form of energy? Is this condensation caused by gravity or some other force? Or does it take all the four forces to transform it? OR does energy coalesce around probability waves or matrixes?

Someone said earlier that there could never be no space, but space is defined by matter, energy and time.. is it not? I think the issue with that is because we perceive our universe from three dimensions, plus time, that conceiving of "potential" space is rather difficult, as is conceiving of "no time" or the potential singularity of "NOW".

Another thought.. when I hear that the other galaxies are rushing away from us, gaining speed with distance.. okay I get that, BUT is this implying that we are at the central point? (?) Or are we also at a certain point on this rushing?.. can we not extrapolate from the direction of these other masses where the universe may have begun? Or is expecting it to be a circular expansion a bit childish?

Is there space here for the anthropic principle, whether weak or strong? The math is a bit suggestive that the universe (this one anyway) seems awfully friendly to life... I don't subscribe to this but think it is an interesting proposition and one that seems to blend well with M-theory.

Thanks!
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 249
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/30/2008 6:33:56 PM
So.. what you are saying is that it really isn't the galaxies that are moving (although being IN the fabric they would also be moving with it.. but not "through" it) but the fabric of space/time that is expanding

I'm having a hard time wrapping my visual mind around the idea that all everywhere is expanding... I'll have to chew on that for a bit

isn't it true that the farthest things we can see are quasars at the edge of our perceptive abilities and that these are immense? would that not suggest that the farther back in time the denser the universe was? does this give credence to the Big Bang theory?

I saw a model of the background radiation of the universe, very cool (or hot) what interested me was that it was not uniform, but seemed to have areas of lighter and denser energy.

M-theory, if say, umm.. choice created new probabilities and those probabilities took form wouldn't that create the possibility of an infinite number of universes coming into existence all the time? Does this not suggest that observation/participation, consciousness has an effect on the form and or fabric of the universe itself? (I don't think that which is not conscious can observe, but maybe our definition of "consciousness" is too narrow... think of things like Jung's collective unconscious and archetypes, or muscle or cell memory and such.. even the behavior of electrons is pretty interesting)


I had a weird thought when I was very young... it was that nothing existed until it was imagined.. and then it would come into existence.. like the universe was only so big until someone imagined it much larger.. or that the theory of relativity was only a probability until Einstein formulated it, I think I get the idea reading very old science fiction and seeing some correlation with modern inventions and theories. Don't know if that has any merit but it's an old idea I had a long time ago that I still muse about.

However.. 42 sound pretty plausible also! Do you have your towel?
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 250
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:36:27 PM

I saw a model of the background radiation of the universe, very cool (or hot) what interested me was that it was not uniform, but seemed to have areas of lighter and denser energy.


For the most part, it is very uniform. The areas you mention are thought to be where pockets of mass accumulated to form galaxies.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:41:23 PM

I was reading this thread and thinking about some things I had heard about M-theory and I wondered... wouldn't a true singularity be pure potential?


I know you have a math background - singularities are points where time/space divides by zero. They can exist, but all of our physical laws and really time/space don't apply to them.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:47:16 PM

Another thought.. when I hear that the other galaxies are rushing away from us, gaining speed with distance.. okay I get that, BUT is this implying that we are at the central point? (?) Or are we also at a certain point on this rushing?.. can we not extrapolate from the direction of these other masses where the universe may have begun? Or is expecting it to be a circular expansion a bit childish?


What I think you are saying is that the early universe expanded in to an existing time and space. This isn't what happen or even what is happening. Space is expanding - like measuring distances between point before and after blowing up a balloon.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:52:35 PM

M-theory, if say, umm.. choice created new probabilities and those probabilities took form wouldn't that create the possibility of an infinite number of universes coming into existence all the time? Does this not suggest that observation/participation, consciousness has an effect on the form and or fabric of the universe itself? (I don't think that which is not conscious can observe, but maybe our definition of "consciousness" is too narrow... think of things like Jung's collective unconscious and archetypes, or muscle or cell memory and such.. even the behavior of electrons is pretty interesting)


There have been more than a few articles that I read within that last several years that express theories that have much in common with what you just stated.
 Refinedsillyguy
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 255
Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/30/2008 11:09:37 PM
So is that black hole outside our solar system, causing the disturbance..? or is the hype about planet x redefining our gravity principles of our solar system.?
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 256
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/31/2008 7:33:36 PM
thermodynamic

hmmm.. isn't it friction or some other movement that causes heat? Doesn't that mean that there must be matter to create the heat to create energy?

Is this why some research is so interested in how things are at absolute zero? (or as close as we can get to that?) How does that relate to the origin of the universe. Would there even be an absolute in temperature without space/time?
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 261
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Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/31/2008 10:21:10 PM

Try plugging in different numbers like 1 and 0 for c in E=mc^2 Then try plugging in infinity for c also


Ummm, "c" is a constant. It's not something you can just plug different values into willy-nilly.
 Refinedsillyguy
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 265
Universe came from nothing
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:44:47 PM
well one things for sure.
We didnt evolve from monkeys, if we did how is it there is still monkeys...
a little of topic, but whats with all these videos on the news and youtube of ufos..
I've heard the big bang theory, but aside from planetary infrastructure, any thoughts on how we arrived...or came about..
I mean its not like for years and years there was animals that were very intelligent then one day humans existed..
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